Lower Kuva cost on re-rolling rivens

[Jax_Cavalera]

The cost of re-rolling a riven mod needs to be lowered for the following reasons:

• DE are clearly still working out the balancing on these items (and are likely to continue doing so for the duration of the game as new changes continue to roll out)
• Players are more and more time-poor these days so farming up 3500 kuva (current max roll cap) takes quite a number of runs.
• The act of re-rolling a riven is a pure chance based mechanic not that dis-similar to other pure chance based things like loot boxes.
• The best way to get kuva is to use a resource booster which has a platinum associated cost.

I could go on but I think we get the general idea. A lot of players get upset each time riven dispositions are adjusted, because there are quite a lot of hidden costs involved in getting a good roll specifically the platinum costs. Not saying all great riven rolls cost platinum, but generally speaking it's fair to say more often than not, a god tier riven roll comes off the back of a platinum purchase at some point in that journey.

• Player buys a riven pre-rolled for platinum
• Player buys platinum to buy a resource booster
• Player does all of the above

With this in mind, if the intention of Riven mods is genuinely to facilitate arriving at a more balanced game where the less used weapons have the chance to become more popular and not just another way to facilitate potential platinum sales associated with this chance based mechanic.

Personally I believe that DE never intended for rivens to be an addictive gambling experience that would indirectly drive platinum sales. I believe they genuinely want to provide a great way for players to experience weapons that would otherwise be mastery fodder.

As to what the lowered costs are, I think a clean 50% reduction would be reasonable.

Alternatively, DE could simply enable players to extract the invested kuva back out of a rolled riven mod (1:1 no diminishing returns - without destroying the mod)

[TaylorsContraction]

Sure I'm all for riven kuva hell changes that make life easier.

[Jax_Cavalera]

A good follow-up question would be, what do we need to do next in order to make this happen?

Edited July 9, 2019 by Jax_Cavalera

[GinKenshin]

10 minutes ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

My question is, if we want this to happen, what do we need to do?

Nothing since this isn’t gonna happen 

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

A good follow-up question would be, what do we need to do next in order to make this happen?

I think acquiring DE from its holding company would be the logical next step.

[Jax_Cavalera]

Sheesh is it really that grim a prospect?

I really want to give DE the benefit here, believing that they would want to do the right thing by their players.

We know they've released other features, which initially seemed like a well balanced system, till it was recognized that players were using it in a similar fashion to a casino and then it got adjusted to reduce the negative impact on gambling in game.

Surely they still have some control over the game now to make a similar adjustment to the kuva / riven ecosystem that will greatly reduce the negative impact on the gambling aspects associated with it.

[Madway7]

Considering they seem dismissive on even the prospect on allowing stat locks, I doubt they care enough to change the system much.

 

I'm glad they started to change dispo on a regular basis now, though it is highlighting issues with how dispo changes are done. However I agree that more has to be done.

 

On 2019-07-06 at 10:28 PM, Jax_Cavalera said:

 

• The best way to get kuva is to use a resource booster which has a platinum associated cost.

 

As to what the lowered costs are, I think a clean 50% reduction would be reasonable.

Wouldn't this remain a problem seeing as the rng element would remain the same? You could also just double (or triple) all gains, but make them unaffected by boosters

[Grey_Star_Rival_Defender]

If Kuva missions were worth doing then people wouldn’t be begging for Kuva rewards for literally every new drop table. I agree.

[Jax_Cavalera]

10 hours ago, Madway7 said:

Wouldn't this remain a problem seeing as the rng element would remain the same? You could also just double (or triple) all gains, but make them unaffected by boosters

If they are serious about reducing the real world cash economy associated with riven mod chance based mechanics; what you recommend would also be a great step in the right direction.

There are 2 parts to the issue: you have the platinum costs from players buying resource boosters to gamble away farmed kuva, and then there are the players who purchase platinum to buy riven mods.

It appears that DE want players to use a wide variety of riven mods.

When players spend plat on them, it results in all this salt because they have been short-changed each time their purchased Item is reduced in value. You can warn an addict all day long, but riven mod rolling is an addiction, just like smoking, many other chance based mechanics (gambling, loot boxes, etc.) and we have crazy warnings about how bad things like gambling and smoking are yet addicts continue to do them so the argument of: "Players have been warned changes will be coming" just doesn't cut it. Clearly warnings aren't an effective tactic at mitigating addiction.

If the value of riven mods were lower due to rolling being less expensive, then it would reduce the negative impact associated with that kind of addiction across the player-base. Using a fixed re-roll rate would help reduce this, Increasing riven gained from farming whilst exempting kuva from boosters is another great way of addressing it.

All of this reduces the costs associated with the riven mods without changing their original intent in game: something to make more weapons useful with balanced usage distribution.

The alternative to this is a complete re-work on how the riven mechanics work, taking out the random chance from it:

• Riven mods have X points that can be distributed manually onto 2 -> 3 buffs and 1 (optional curse)
• Disposition affects how many points are available to spend
• Kuva allows a player to reset the point distribution

This would be a very different type of system, with almost no actual RNG involved yet still facilitating the stated goal of riven mods. Players would still want to buy specific rivens for a certain weapon, and still spend on boosters to farm kuva up .. but the quantities of kuva would be significantly lower. It would also be a lot easier for DE to handle balancing as there's no RNG to deal with so they would get more clear data on stat spending and could even add weight to certain stats or cap them etc as needed.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Jax_Cavalera

[Raso719]

If anything after a Riven has its disposition lowered maybe they could at least reduce the cost of re-rolls for a week or two. That would at least encourage people to roll for new combinations which might offset the drop in value from the disposition changing.

[Jax_Cavalera]

The situation as a whole is something I really think needs to be looked at more seriously by DE. There are some clear indicators of problematic behavior stemming from the way rivens and kuva work right now.

Any changes listed above would still result in a thriving trade market in my opinion, since a good deal of riven trades are between veteran players who have the means to actually farm riven mods and substantial quantities of kuva.. and those who don't, but do have disposable platinum.

I don't have any problem with players buying or selling riven mods, I do have issues with how the current system brings those transactions closer to gambling than it does to establishing a more balanced game (which I think was the original goal).

Edited July 11, 2019 by Jax_Cavalera

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

A reduction wouldn't stop the issue it would just give you more rolls.

Alternatively they could introduce a hard cap on cost so that it will always cost the same after X amount of rolls or have the cost degrade back down over time encouraging players to wait a few days until another spin.

[Jax_Cavalera]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)deathwolfclaw666 said:

A reduction wouldn't stop the issue it would just give you more rolls.

Alternatively they could introduce a hard cap on cost so that it will always cost the same after X amount of rolls or have the cost degrade back down over time encouraging players to wait a few days until another spin.

Currently there is a hard cap on PC at least of 3500 kuva / re-roll. I'm interested in your idea for how the cost reduction over time would pan out in the context of a player investing in a specific riven mod, then having it's disposition balanced out.

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

6 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Currently there is a hard cap on PC at least of 3500 kuva / re-roll. I'm interested in your idea for how the cost reduction over time would pan out in the context of a player investing in a specific riven mod, then having it's disposition balanced out.

Take the Riven I just rolled as an example, 8th roll cost 2750, the next roll will cost 3150. There's two ways I can see the reduction going, either by a set amount or back to the previous cost. So lets say I come back after 24 hours wanting to roll again, rather than cost me 3150 it's back to 2750 and less stil after another 24 hours.  

[Jax_Cavalera]

4 hours ago, (PS4)deathwolfclaw666 said:

So lets say I come back after 24 hours wanting to roll again, rather than cost me 3150 it's back to 2750 and less still after another 24 hours.

That's pretty cool, I like that it rewards patience which may act like an air-break to the more sensible players out there. It may help with those addicts who still have a chance at self control as well. For the gambling addicts who burn through 100+ rolls on a riven already, something like this is unlikely to be a strong deterrent, I admit there are some riven mods where I fall into this category as well 🥺🥶 It took a lot of will power to drag myself away from it in those cases.. and it's not always because I wanted some known popular meta weapon to be even more popular.. it's on something that I feel is under-used and so I go searching for an RNG chance that it can compete with the "big boys" out there.. costs be damned. 

I know if it turns out to be amazing, it'll probably get nerfed but in that moment, I can't help but keep rolling the dice. If there were a cap on rolling costs it might at least increase the chances of hitting something worth keeping before metric tons of kuva are poured down the drain. There is a good chance though that now days I could resist that urge if I knew the costs of my next roll would go down in 12 or 24 hours time.  I'm just not so sure other players who have the addiction even stronger than I did.. would survive.

[Ikusias]

To be honest, my main issue with riven rebalancing is that it feels like a kick to the face from DE after I've had to roll some of the mods too many times just for USEABLE stats for weapons I liked, wasting a lot of time on something that's too much of a slot-machine.

I happen then finally to luck out and someone comes and decides that my riven should become worse? Frag it!

I'd accept it if the balancing come in play if I decided to roll again or to sell/trade away the mod to earn a profit off it.

But to have something that I spent time, patience and a good deal of frustration to the point I was satisfied with it being altered without my consent, feels very much like some jerk decided to try his hand at pissing me off just for a cheap laugh at my expenses.

And I still mantain that some changes are still half-backed and unjustified. Also hitting with nerfs mutiple times in a row the same riven dispositions, in particular those for niche weapons.

 

[Jax_Cavalera]

9 hours ago, Ikusias said:

To be honest, my main issue with riven rebalancing is that it feels like a kick to the face from DE

This is pretty much the sentiment shared in the great wall of frustration expressed by players each time we get new riven dispo changes. I can't blame them either, I feel a bit that way too I admit and I'm really wanting to support DE with their ambition of arriving at a more balanced game that gives players the opportunity to breathe new life into underused weapons / builds.

I thought on the responses from this feedback a bit and it prompted me to consider if there is a way we can improve this situation so players aren't left feeling as short-changed each time the dispositions are adjusted. Anyway it resulted in me putting together this idea:

It's a general overhaul idea and 100% still a work in progress

I do think we need something like this to happen, if not that exact thing something that can course correct before too many players get burnt out by the riven and kuva grinder.

[(PSN)chibitonka]

Let's just replace the riven system. Cause as it is it's not much different than the pet rng when doing random. In terms of luck, exploitability and terms of trade it's not much different than a slot machine/gacha that we can sell. Which last i checked is something DE was trying to prevent/discourage. 

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

9 hours ago, Ikusias said:

To be honest, my main issue with riven rebalancing is that it feels like a kick to the face from DE after I've had to roll some of the mods too many times just for USEABLE stats for weapons I liked, wasting a lot of time on something that's too much of a slot-machine.

I happen then finally to luck out and someone comes and decides that my riven should become worse? Frag it!

The whimsical "rebalance" after expending much effort & time farming kuva at its current exorbitant price is absolutely a kick in the nuts.  Complete lack of respect for player time by DE.  If they actually wanted to respect time, they could lower disposition for new rivens leaving existing unaffected.  (if they then want to prevent plat inflation they could make rolled rivens untradeable).  Sure - they won't hit a riven more than one pip in a go - but they have no problem smacking it three times in a row for 3 pips total. Disingenuous at best.

Note I say "they don't respect our time", but they do care about it: all they care is that we spend obscene amounts of time gambling with kuva, then farming more. 

• The Riven system is not designed to encourage the use of under-utilized weapons - it is designed to suck players into more play time
• The Riven cost is not designed to make it pleasurable, it is set at the maximum cost they think they can get away with. And the fact that people still farm and roll rivens reinforces to DE they set the cost appropriately - some players complain but not enough to lower the cost.
• Locking stats would result in less kuva spent which results in less kuva farmed which equates to less hours played.

 

If they want more people using under utilized weapons, buff the weapons. given how many weapons are out there, and the relative difficulty of getting rivens, the chances that enough insert-crap-weapon-here rivens make it into the market to skew gameplay % time is slim to none.  Especially given that most people will simply dissolve/transmute all these garbarge weapons without even testing them first trying to get their rubi/gram/catch/zaw/etc riven.

So I don't see them lowering the cost, or in anyway improving the experience for players as it serves their needs currently:

• High roll cost Encourages wasted hours running kuva missions again and again and again and again
• high roll cost encourages sale of boosters
• no stat locking encourages (forces) obscene number of rolls
• "rebalancing" discards all player effort and resets their progress to zero.  Can't have someone finally be satisfied with their 90 rivens - lets lower their stats so the ditch those for the new shiny meta and start the grind all over again.

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by (XB1)Tucker D Dawg

[Jax_Cavalera]

Do you reckon that it's an intentional thing or that DE simply look at players frustrated with riven changes and think "It's just a player throwing a tantrum, they'll get over it, it's not a majority of players getting upset"

I ask this because for every 10 or so players in the riven disposition change threads, you get that one player who goes on about how "we knew this was coming, just goes to show some players ... <insert statement shaming players for expressing unhappiness with the adjustments that were made>".

[(XBOX)XxLeeRobsxX]

On 2019-07-07 at 3:28 AM, Jax_Cavalera said:

The cost of re-rolling a riven mod needs to be lowered for the following reasons:

• DE are clearly still working out the balancing on these items (and are likely to continue doing so for the duration of the game as new changes continue to roll out)
• Players are more and more time-poor these days so farming up 3500 kuva (current max roll cap) takes quite a number of runs.
• The act of re-rolling a riven is a pure chance based mechanic not that dis-similar to other pure chance based things like loot boxes.
• The best way to get kuva is to use a resource booster which has a platinum associated cost.

I could go on but I think we get the general idea. A lot of players get upset each time riven dispositions are adjusted, because there are quite a lot of hidden costs involved in getting a good roll specifically the platinum costs. Not saying all great riven rolls cost platinum, but generally speaking it's fair to say more often than not, a god tier riven roll comes off the back of a platinum purchase at some point in that journey.

• Player buys a riven pre-rolled for platinum
• Player buys platinum to buy a resource booster
• Player does all of the above

With this in mind, if the intention of Riven mods is genuinely to facilitate arriving at a more balanced game where the less used weapons have the chance to become more popular and not just another way to facilitate potential platinum sales associated with this chance based mechanic.

Personally I believe that DE never intended for rivens to be an addictive gambling experience that would indirectly drive platinum sales. I believe they genuinely want to provide a great way for players to experience weapons that would otherwise be mastery fodder.

As to what the lowered costs are, I think a clean 50% reduction would be reasonable.

Alternatively, DE could simply enable players to extract the invested kuva back out of a rolled riven mod (1:1 no diminishing returns - without destroying the mod)

I used to talk about this Idea since tht rolling a riven Randomises the stats on it and to make it better, the cost should be greater if ur selecting a stat on tht riven

[George_PPS]

Kuva cost is not a big issue. The real issue is that players efforts on farming Kuva and rolling Rivens can go down to the drain when DE nerfs the dispositions affecting current Rivens. Once a Riven is rolled, the stats should be locked and not affected by future dispo changes. That DE nerfs the Rivens regardless how much players have put into them or spent plat to buy them, is extremely disrespectful to players’ efforts and time for the sake of “rebalancing” based on “internal metric” black box. 

[Oreades]

1 hour ago, George_PPS said:

Kuva cost is not a big issue. The real issue is that players efforts on farming Kuva and rolling Rivens can go down to the drain when DE nerfs the dispositions affecting current Rivens. Once a Riven is rolled, the stats should be locked and not affected by future dispo changes. That DE nerfs the Rivens regardless how much players have put into them or spent plat to buy them, is extremely disrespectful to players’ efforts and time for the sake of “rebalancing” based on “internal metric” black box. 

If they where going to lock old Rivens then they should never make any changes to the disposition at all. 

The last thing DE needs to make are more obscenely overpriced market items. 

Edit:

For clarification I have nothing against disposition changes, more so the absurdity of grandfathering in Rivens stats while continuing to alter future Riven potentials. 

Edited July 21, 2019 by Oreades

[Jax_Cavalera]

19 minutes ago, Oreades said:

grandfathering in Rivens stats while continuing to alter future Riven potentials. 

That's a fair counter, If stats were locked in and not a free moving scale, it'd become on par with the estimated trade value of something like a legendary fusion core before they were introduced as a drop item to sorties.

1 hour ago, George_PPS said:

Kuva cost is not a big issue.

You have a good point though, the cost of kuva doesn't quite solve the full issue, the full problem would be better solved by allowing a player to extract invested kuva from a riven mod... at the cost of that riven mod so you get your kuva back but lose the riven it came out of.. in this way DE performing disposition changes would give those who have heavily invested in a god tier riven a shot at switching to the new meta (still not a great alternative being it's just one meta for the next)

IDK each way I slice this down, just tweaking one small thing here or there results in it still bring more issues to the table than it has the potential to solve. I'm starting to agree with the notion that the only way to really fix the riven system is by removing as much RNG out of it as can be done without completely ruining the trade value in owning a specific riven... The weapon a riven is for.

At the end of the day, all I can really hope for is to get some kind of official clarification on DE's position surrounding the current state of rivens:

19 hours ago, Jax_Cavalera said:

Do you reckon that it's an intentional thing or that DE simply look at players frustrated with riven changes and think "It's just a player throwing a tantrum, they'll get over it, it's not a majority of players getting upset"

I ask this because for every 10 or so players in the riven disposition change threads, you get that one player who goes on about how "we knew this was coming, just goes to show some players ... <insert statement shaming players for expressing unhappiness with the adjustments that were made>".

With an answer to that, we have a shot at putting together a proposal that can still help them achieve their goals whilst also being something a majority of the community can embrace.

[George_PPS]

3 hours ago, Oreades said:

If they where going to lock old Rivens then they should never make any changes to the disposition at all. 

The last thing DE needs to make are more obscenely overpriced market items. 

Edit:

For clarification I have nothing against disposition changes, more so the absurdity of grandfathering in Rivens stats while continuing to alter future Riven potentials. 

DE doesn’t price any Rivens. The free trading market does. It’s a good thing. Players also invest more Kuva in Rivens that have high dispositions in general so the rolled stats should be kept if DE is to regularly adjust Riven dispositions. 

There are also players like me who actually spend a lot of time to farm Kuva and roll Rivens and provide the market and other players Rivens with good stats. Players’ tremendous efforts in farming and rolling Rivens should be respected. Players’ platinum spent on good Rivens with good stats should be respected.

Locking stats is good for those who roll Rivens and good for those who spend plat to buy them. It’s a win-win. When DE nerf Rivens, all players lose except those who want to pay less and get more and maybe those who don’t farm, don’t roll, but just flip Rivens. 

PS. I also support those who only flip Rivens. It’s free market. They also provide great services for other players by getting those Rivens and staying online longer to resell them at the right prices others are willing to pay. 

Edited July 21, 2019 by George_PPS