DConagher Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Greetings those of you at [DE] and fellow Tenno around the Relays! I'm somewhat of an avid, and at the same time, strange, Warframe player. Where many people find fun in powerful weapons, or in more commonly played frames, maybe even in stronger operators, and many more seek to master every available frame, my sense of "joy" and "fulfillment" is far more focused, and it comes from the simple act of flattening foes with a forceful fist to the face: I am an Atlas main. That, on its own, wouldn't be so strange. I've run into plenty of other players who at least like the frame, so simply having played Atlas is not a claim to fame; However, I have yet to run into another player who's used Atlas for eighty-some odd percent of their mission time- simply put, he is a frame I adore, and have done so since I first entered the cosmos of this game. The short story is that a friend bought me Atlas relatively early on to settle a score, and so I have had the Brawler almost since day one of my adventures in Warframe. Just because of, or perhaps even in spite of, all the time I've sunk into Atlas, he is not a perfect frame. He still has plenty of untapped potential, or at minimum underused assets. So, even though I adore the frame and have played hundreds of hours worth of fun with him, I do still fully believe he could use a few tweaks. Now, this is not the first "Rework Atlas" thread I've tried to bring up, and I received some very constructive feedback on a few of my previous ideas (Thank you all for your help!). After some extensive revisions, and his Prime being pushed till Christmas time at the soonest, I wanted to bring up a few possible ideas that could make him an even better frame! Of course, Atlas has already been reworked once, and that made him an infinitely better frame. However, even with that rework, he still hasn't seen a lot of play from what I can gather, and recently Wukong sort of jumped in front of him on the prime train, due to the Monkey King's interesting rework. While I am slightly sad that I cannot begin punching people with a gilded Prime fist quite yet, this does give me the opportunity to save some funds for the Prime Access, which you can be assured I will be purchasing once Atlas Prime becomes available! However, that is not the main purpose of this post: I would like to discuss the possibility of a couple of concepts that have come into my head in the hundreds of hours I have invested into the frame- changes that would make Atlas a far better frame in the shifting meta of Warframe, and give him more of an immediate purpose in the world. The Tl;Dr version, if you don't want to talk exact stats: -Possibly consider uncapping Atlas's Rubble, and changing the rates he gains it at -Give him a scaling damage boost based on his current rubble -Remove his 2nd ability Tectonics, and replace it with his current 4th, Rumblers -Give him a new 4th ability, one that spends rubble and covers something he's missing. -Change Landslide to gain lunge distance based on Range -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Firstly, in Atlas's kit there is now only one Ability that is under-utilized; His lack-luster 2nd ability, Tectonics. Even with its augment, so many frames can provide better area control and objective protection, mostly due to the small size of the wall. I would suggest replacing this ability entirely, on a personal note. In all my time, there have rarely been instances where the wall made any real dent in the gameplay of a mission. While it is not "pointless" per se, I believe a better option can be created. Secondly, his Rubble. The current cap of his Rubble system (1500) is rather simple to keep over 1,000 at the minimum, and honestly seems like an under-utilized system; I'd propose the concept of un-capping his Rubble, and reducing the amount of rubble gained per stack to 10 (25 if gained through killing a petrified foe with Landslide). This would make it more difficult to stack his rubble, but the longer you kept at it, the more durable Atlas would get. Even so, stacking absurd amounts of armor does have its falloff, and of course, would take time. This, ideally, would be more of a quality of life buff for longer missions, while making it more difficult to generate instant armor by flattening 1-2 groups of enemies. While this wouldn't be NECESSARY to the goal of this rework, it ties in to... The Main Course of this idea, which is in all truth, it is a simple one: Atlas could receive a *slight* (emphasis on slight, here!) weapon damage boost (functioning like a mod) per x amount of rubble. It could be for all weapons, or probably the more balanced and fitting option: just for melee. This would grant Atlas a scaling damage increase based off how much rubble he's bulked himself up with would definitely give more impact to the system as a whole, and help him against heavily armored content. Furthermore, this would tie into the fourth part of this rework: Fourthly and lastly, a new ability to replace his Tectonics. I would suggest moving his Rumbler to his 2nd ability and reducing the amount summoned from 2 to 1, as well as the ability cost from 100 to 50. This would help keep his rubble gain in line with a balanced curve. Also, this would allow a reworking of the Titanic Rumblers augment to summon 1 additional rumbler per rank, but dividing the stats between the Rumblers. You could even keep the name of what is his current 2's Augment: Tectonic Fracture The new ability would now be his 4: Vesuvius (Named for the volcano, who's eruption that leveled Pompei, to keep with some of Atlas's greek roots.) Channel for 5 seconds to release a massive impact, destroying 1/2 of your current Rubble and launching a devastating AoE attack. Furthermore, this ability would have a cooldown based on ability duration (Starting at 10 seconds). This ability would be affected by Natural Talent, with a base radius of 20m, buffed by range, and cost 100 energy. The damage could scale off your rubble expended as well as ability strength. This new ability would give Atlas respectable AoE potential, especially on a range build, without turning him into another Banshee, Ember, or Saryn. It would also give him a much heftier feel. You'd be bulking yourself up with the rubble of your foes, all to unleash it all in one cataclysmic smash. The synergy would then allow for him to have his potent single target Landslide, a useful 2nd ability in the form of his single Rumbler, an amazing crowd control option with his Petrify, and a powerful alternative damage source to his landslide, Vesuvius. These changes have the added bonus of allowing Landslide to have its Range interaction changed. Landslide could now gain lunge distance based on your Range, rather than AoE radius, since Atlas would now have a dedicated AoE ability!) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Again, in summary: -Possibly consider uncapping Atlas's Rubble, and changing the rates he gains it at -Give him a scaling damage boost based on his current rubble -Remove his 2nd ability, and replace it with his current 4th -Give him a new 4th ability, one that spends rubble and covers something he's missing. -Change Landslide to gain lunge distance based on Range I'd love to hear your feedback on these concepts, both what you think of them (likes, dislikes, and all!), as well as if they might be balanced or thematic enough to warrant addition into your amazing game! Thank you very much if you took the time to read this, and for making Warframe the game it is today! -Dave 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)FK2P Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 He should come with a small buff because of how unpopular he is. Just a few small tweaks and minor buffs would do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruffel Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 3 hours ago, DConagher said: I'm somewhat of an avid, and at the same time, strange, Warframe player. Where many people find fun in powerful weapons, or in more commonly played frames, maybe even in stronger operators, and many more seek to master every available frame, my sense of "joy" and "fulfillment" is far more focused, and it comes from the simple act of flattening foes with a forceful fist to the face: I am an Atlas main. Hi, me too. I don't take the game that seriously as an escapist fantasy, but I guess you could do that. 3 hours ago, DConagher said: The Tl;Dr version, if you don't want to talk exact stats: -Possibly consider uncapping Atlas's Rubble, and changing the rates he gains it at -Give him a scaling damage boost based on his current rubble -Remove his 2nd ability Tectonics, and replace it with his current 4th, Rumblers -Give him a new 4th ability, one that spends rubble and covers something he's missing. -Change Landslide to gain lunge distance based on Range Okay, let me try to go through this slowly. 1. Now, if we were going to uncap the Rubble, the thing that would be the primary concern for me is whether or not the Rubble gain is sufficient enough to maintain a good amount of Rubble in the first place in terms of subsiding the decay. Honestly, it'd rather just increase the Rubble cap by two fold and reducing or haltering the decay until health damage is taken, as this would allow a player to properly increase the Rubble without having to feel like it's a constant necessity to get Rubble all the time. 2. I guess a damage boost would be really nice for Atlas for his Rubble amount, but considering how you just wanted to uncap the Rubble, wouldn't that give for a bit of an overpowered trait? Sure, you could maybe put a cap on the Rubbled damage, but then that depends on whether or not the damage increase will even be significant enough to warrant that cap. 3. And now I have to start to disagree, I just don't like the idea of removing or replacing already existing abilities, or at least the concept of them. I get it, Tectonics is a situational ability for when you need defense in the only 4-5 situations where defense is necessary and it's secondary usage is practically useless since Atlas already has a better CC ability, don't worry I understand. The thing is however, I feel like it would be better to just improve the already existing abilities within his kit, and go off from their to make him better in the things that he can do. I know this might sound rude, but I find it a bit lazy to look at something weak and say, "just remove it". And the replacement with Rumblers seems a bit odd too, since they are not even that good of an ability either, at least in terms of their power and importance within Atlas's kit. [In fact, I've been theory crafting, in relation to my previously mentioned Rubble change, is what would happen if the Rumblers were actually a benefit from getting to a specific Rubble amount; it could make them unreliable on duration, maybe add a system where they don't die but instead "deactivate", and free up an open slot for another ability.] I just don't exactly like removing a function that a character already has, I can understand it when it's something like Iron Jab that still exists in the form of a melee combo starter, but there are people that play defensive Atlas, so I don't see the necessity of removing it from them. Unless you were to somehow combine Tectonics and Rumbler ability, I can't agree with it. 4. Giving Atlas more options is fine, just depends on what those extra options are. 5. I know this might sound weird, but I have to sorta disagree with this change too. Don't get me wrong, it would be great too, but considering how it's an ability that has (list all good things about Landslide here), and even when it doesn't scale that well, I don't know about giving people access to a long-range invincible attack for a low energy cost. I know Valkyr and Wukong exist, but Wukong stuns enemies and Valkyr needs to get up close and personal. Atlas is this case just needs to see you and slide the whole way. Unless, you do something like a Range-Invincibility scale thing(?) where depending on the range between Atlas and the enemy, depends on when his invincibility activates (similar to the range of default Landslide). I know it seems like I've been holding back Atlas's power with my disagreements, but I think it's just my way of interpreting how Atlas should work/be powerful. 4 hours ago, DConagher said: Secondly, his Rubble. The current cap of his Rubble system (1500) is rather simple to keep over 1,000 at the minimum, and honestly seems like an under-utilized system; I'd propose the concept of un-capping his Rubble, and reducing the amount of rubble gained per stack to 10 (25 if gained through killing a petrified foe with Landslide). This would make it more difficult to stack his rubble, but the longer you kept at it, the more durable Atlas would get. Even so, stacking absurd amounts of armor does have its falloff, and of course, would take time. This, ideally, would be more of a quality of life buff for longer missions, while making it more difficult to generate instant armor by flattening 1-2 groups of enemies. While this wouldn't be NECESSARY to the goal of this rework, it ties in to... Side note here: I am going to assume (and hope) the decay is gone in this situation? Because trying to build up Rubble this way with it, would be pretty damn challenge wouldn't it? Even if you were doing nothing but Petrifyingly Landsliding people, you'd have to make sure you never take a break. I know it may be hard sometimes to get your Rubble up, (especially when teammates kill enemies in front of you first) but this would be really challenging. 4 hours ago, DConagher said: Fourthly and lastly, a new ability to replace his Tectonics. I would suggest moving his Rumbler to his 2nd ability and reducing the amount summoned from 2 to 1, as well as the ability cost from 100 to 50. This would help keep his rubble gain in line with a balanced curve. Also, this would allow a reworking of the Titanic Rumblers augment to summon 1 additional rumbler per rank, but dividing the stats between the Rumblers. You could even keep the name of what is his current 2's Augment: Tectonic Fracture So... a worse Wukong clone/specter? I'd honestly have to use the augment to gain any widespread usage of the previous Rumblers, because this doesn't really do much for me. 4 hours ago, DConagher said: The new ability would now be his 4: Vesuvius (Named for the volcano, who's eruption that leveled Pompei, to keep with some of Atlas's greek roots.) Channel for 5 seconds to release a massive impact, destroying 1/2 of your current Rubble and launching a devastating AoE attack. Furthermore, this ability would have a cooldown based on ability duration (Starting at 10 seconds). This ability would be affected by Natural Talent, with a base radius of 20m, buffed by range, and cost 100 energy. The damage could scale off your rubble expended as well as ability strength. An AoE ability for Atlas? Eh, I guess. It's not something I would have chosen but I suppose it is a valid option. But, what do you mean by cool down? Like the ability cannot be used again until the cool down is done? Not sure why you gave an AoE ability to Atlas, but then put a cool down limit to it, it just doesn't seem necessary. especially with how slow the ability is by default. Yeah, personally, I don't know if I would play Atlas more than I already do with this set of abilities on him, it just doesn't have the same type of feel as before. Maybe it is overall better, who knows, but I don't see it as such. Side note: I'd recommend not trying to copy and paste your black text onto your forum post, it's hard for us Dark Mode users to see it. I had to switch to Light Mode to see it, and now my eyes hurt. Side side note: It can be a little subjective on whether or not Atlas Prime was delayed, because when you think about it, Wukong was technically released first before Atlas. 2 hours ago, (PS4)FK2P said: He should come with a small buff because of how unpopular he is. Just a few small tweaks and minor buffs would do it I wouldn't be such a negative nancy when it comes to the way how unpopular frames have been getting attention, considering how we just got the Wukong Rework that turned him into a one-ability never-die frame, into a contender for the best melee frame out right now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubbleRain Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 On 2019-07-17 at 7:09 PM, DConagher said: Remove his 2nd ability Tectonics, and replace it with his current 4th, Rumblers Gotta say I heavily disagree with this. Atlas, the Titan who holds up the world, is a hybrid offensive/defensive frame. If anything, DE needs to double down on his protective capabilities instead of neutering them. Are tectonics weak? Absolutely. But they should be strengthened, not outright removed. Having more of his abilities scale off of rubble is a great idea, but as of now piling up rubble is extremely expensive energy wise and it is this aspect that should be fixed first before expanding on its benefits. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrakeWurrum Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) On 2019-07-17 at 5:09 AM, DConagher said: The Tl;Dr version, if you don't want to talk exact stats: -Possibly consider uncapping Atlas's Rubble, and changing the rates he gains it at -Give him a scaling damage boost based on his current rubble -Remove his 2nd ability Tectonics, and replace it with his current 4th, Rumblers -Give him a new 4th ability, one that spends rubble and covers something he's missing. -Change Landslide to gain lunge distance based on Range --His Rubble cap is already crazy: I got it to 1500 armor recently. That's a LOT. The hard part? It costs so much energy! I think the best fix for this is to make Rubble grant Energy to Atlas. This is similar, in concept, to how Nidus' casting his 1 correctly will regenerate the entire cost of the ability. Petrify costs 75 and Landslide 25, baseline, so... If they reduce the cost of Petrify to 25, that would make the biggest difference. They could make Rubble restore Petrify's Energy cost - or maybe a third of it's cost, to encourage you to hit groups of enemies instead of one guy at a time. --Damage boost? Honestly, I don't think he needs it. His fists are strong. And if an enemy survives the first hit, then I just have an excuse to actually use the chaining bonus! Note that Landslide is affected by the mods on your melee weapon (most of them) and the combo counter, and even by the Steel Charge aura. But tell ya what, they should add one more stage to the combo chain, that increases damage by 800% and completely negates the cost (for those especially tough enemies somehow needing a 4th+ punch). I agree with scaling Range. --Thing is... I like the concept of Tectonics, but I feel it's poorly implemented. If it was a larger wall (Atlas' height minimum), and curved to cover 180 degrees in the direction Atlas faces (and scaled with a range stat to determine radius), that would actually make it useful and give him a decent niche on Defense maps (MOVE ASIDE FROST AND GARA). I think they could make the augment a baseline feature of it (allow him to place 3 walls, get rid of the boulder). But then make it so his punch can target his own walls, which sends a small "avalanche" of damage in the direction of the wall/punch (scales off the damage of the punch), while also destroying the wall. Petrify can still boost it's strength. They could grant an augment that makes it reflect damage at attackers - "Jagged Cliff" or something. --But tell ya what - swap that with the Rumblers anyways. A beefed up Tectonics actually feels like a decent 4th ability. If you want, make it cost Rubble for fun. Edited July 19, 2019 by DrakeWurrum 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DConagher Posted July 19, 2019 Author Share Posted July 19, 2019 3 hours ago, RubbleRain said: Gotta say I heavily disagree with this. Atlas, the Titan who holds up the world, is a hybrid offensive/defensive frame. If anything, DE needs to double down on his protective capabilities instead of neutering them. Are tectonics weak? Absolutely. But they should be strengthened, not outright removed. I can see where you're coming from with this, and I racked my brain on it, so I'm curious: how you would suggest strengthening Tectonics? We already have frames like Gara, Frost, and to an extent other lock-down-oriented (Or at the very least, area control) frames like Vauban and Limbo. We don't just want another wall, or a dome, Right? Making the wall scale in size off Strength/range was a possibility, but again, its just another wall at that point. Other frames can do that job a lot better. 3 hours ago, RubbleRain said: Having more of his abilities scale off of rubble is a great idea, but as of now piling up rubble is extremely expensive energy wise and it is this aspect that should be fixed first before expanding on its benefits. Would something like giving armor to nearby frames/objectives be a possibility? Feeding them Rubble to give them passive armor gen? I'd suggest an aggro generation ability, but Warframe isn't your run of the mill MMO, and so that (much like his 4ths augment that he has currently) is something that wouldn't see widespread usage. On 2019-07-17 at 10:55 AM, Scruffel said: Hi, me too. I don't take the game that seriously as an escapist fantasy, but I guess you could do that. Hi, where is the "escapist fantasy"? Its fun to punch people. As I stated, other people find the game fun in their own way- That's my form of entertainment with the game. That's all this is. On 2019-07-17 at 10:55 AM, Scruffel said: Okay, let me try to go through this slowly. 1. Now, if we were going to uncap the Rubble, the thing that would be the primary concern for me is whether or not the Rubble gain is sufficient enough to maintain a good amount of Rubble in the first place in terms of subsiding the decay. Honestly, it'd rather just increase the Rubble cap by two fold and reducing or haltering the decay until health damage is taken, as this would allow a player to properly increase the Rubble without having to feel like it's a constant necessity to get Rubble all the time. This is a fair assessment, and I can understand that aspect. As a player, I play an almost entirely ability focused Atlas, so I rarely have that much trouble getting Rubble, unless there's a Saryn around or something of that nature. Currently, Natural Talent + Zenurik Dash/Passives+ *1* Energy orb, I can spam-cast my 4th ability to generate 1,500 rubble off his base energy pool, not counting any nearby enemies that get caught in the blast dropping rubble on their own. I'd agree the rubble system itself could use a bit of work, in hindsight; However, I wanted to keep the change list as small as possible while still giving it some impact. Halting the delay until health damage is taken however, that is an interesting concept, and would give some purpose to the 300 shields Atlas has, as actual rubble loss prevention. Cool idea! On 2019-07-17 at 10:55 AM, Scruffel said: 2. I guess a damage boost would be really nice for Atlas for his Rubble amount, but considering how you just wanted to uncap the Rubble, wouldn't that give for a bit of an overpowered trait? Sure, you could maybe put a cap on the Rubbled damage, but then that depends on whether or not the damage increase will even be significant enough to warrant that cap. 3. And now I have to start to disagree, I just don't like the idea of removing or replacing already existing abilities, or at least the concept of them. I get it, Tectonics is a situational ability for when you need defense in the only 4-5 situations where defense is necessary and it's secondary usage is practically useless since Atlas already has a better CC ability, don't worry I understand. The thing is however, I feel like it would be better to just improve the already existing abilities within his kit, and go off from their to make him better in the things that he can do. I know this might sound rude, but I find it a bit lazy to look at something weak and say, "just remove it". And the replacement with Rumblers seems a bit odd too, since they are not even that good of an ability either, at least in terms of their power and importance within Atlas's kit. [In fact, I've been theory crafting, in relation to my previously mentioned Rubble change, is what would happen if the Rumblers were actually a benefit from getting to a specific Rubble amount; it could make them unreliable on duration, maybe add a system where they don't die but instead "deactivate", and free up an open slot for another ability.] I just don't exactly like removing a function that a character already has, I can understand it when it's something like Iron Jab that still exists in the form of a melee combo starter, but there are people that play defensive Atlas, so I don't see the necessity of removing it from them. Unless you were to somehow combine Tectonics and Rumbler ability, I can't agree with it. The goal with uncapping the rubble and providing a *slight* increase was mainly focused on the rubble you can generate, current day. Say they give him a 10% buff per piece of rubble- that would be far too much damage, ESPECIALLY if its uncapped! Even a 1% buff per piece of rubble would still have astoundingly powerful scaling, and would be a massive damage buff simply due to how much rubble you'd be working with, even uncapped! 1500% melee damage would have Landslide in the millions, if not more. The most I'd even think they would give him is maybe 1% increased melee damage per every 10 rubble, and even then, that's going to ramp rather quickly and add a LOT of damage to his landslide. Getting to 1,000 rubble would give you 100% extra melee damage, and in an uncapped system, that ramp would still be pretty terrifying later on. By reducing his gain, and uncapping the result, Atlas would gain a scaling boost (Similar to but not encroaching on Nidus) in longer styled missions. Buffing all damage would be useful, as I'll get into later, but as I mentioned probably more imbalanced. As for your suggestion on combining Tectonics and Rumbler and the problems both you and RubbleRain have brought up, would it be simple enough to make his second ability into an Earth-Mold skill, with 2-3 different options similar to how Wisp's 1 functions? Have him gain the ability to make walls, rumbler buddies, and maybe something like landmines, with a capped amount of each? My first instinct is to make each one possibly cost rubble, and have him gain rubble with his 1 and 3, to use it with his altered 2 and new 4, but that could be debated both ways due to the concern had with the rubble system as it is. I'm mainly curious how you'd feel with the possibility, like you mentioned, of combining the abilities. On 2019-07-17 at 10:55 AM, Scruffel said: 4. Giving Atlas more options is fine, just depends on what those extra options are. 5. I know this might sound weird, but I have to sorta disagree with this change too. Don't get me wrong, it would be great too, but considering how it's an ability that has (list all good things about Landslide here), and even when it doesn't scale that well, I don't know about giving people access to a long-range invincible attack for a low energy cost. I know Valkyr and Wukong exist, but Wukong stuns enemies and Valkyr needs to get up close and personal. Atlas is this case just needs to see you and slide the whole way. Unless, you do something like a Range-Invincibility scale thing(?) where depending on the range between Atlas and the enemy, depends on when his invincibility activates (similar to the range of default Landslide). I know it seems like I've been holding back Atlas's power with my disagreements, but I think it's just my way of interpreting how Atlas should work/be powerful. I can see your argument against the increased lunge distance, but in no way would we be gaining more mod-slots to work with. Building Atlas in current day, Range and Strength are both reasonably valid options. Duration Atlas works well for defense with a incredibly long petrify duration, but is somewhat of a meme if we're being honest. I can agree with certain parts of your interpretations in all honesty, but the only place that extra lunge distance is really going to matter is in the more open missions. However, more and more, a frames abilities in modern content are diminishing. Unless you're a frame with some sort of actual weapon buff, energy restore/Debuff prevention, or anything of that nature, you will be statistically worse off in Eidolon, Profit Taker, and Exploiter fights. The Ropalyst fight is simple enough, but due to the simply massive damage output, frames like Hildryn and Inaros are going to rule that tileset. Not that you can't do them with Atlas or these other frames, but that other tools can do it better. Of course, this is how its supposed to be for balance reasons- Everything should have a purpose, a role. But, then you encounter frames like Wukong (PRe-work) and Atlas, where the only honest advantage they bring to the table (In these fights, and wukong pre-work, at all times) is ability/energy-based survivability, and outside these massive fights, what do they bring to the table? Atlas brings a decent bit right now. His 3 is amazing crowd control for anything you can petrify, and his 1 does more than respectable damage to anything it can target. His current Rumblers and Tectonics are underwhelming, however, and his more than quantifiable as a almost purely single target frame, unless you mod him for range on his uppercut. These changes I wished to propose would give him an added, dedicated, AoE ability, and give more definition to his role as a Bruiser, rather than a straight Tank or straight DPS styled frame. On 2019-07-17 at 10:55 AM, Scruffel said: Side note here: I am going to assume (and hope) the decay is gone in this situation? Because trying to build up Rubble this way with it, would be pretty damn challenge wouldn't it? Even if you were doing nothing but Petrifyingly Landsliding people, you'd have to make sure you never take a break. I know it may be hard sometimes to get your Rubble up, (especially when teammates kill enemies in front of you first) but this would be really challenging. So... a worse Wukong clone/specter? I'd honestly have to use the augment to gain any widespread usage of the previous Rumblers, because this doesn't really do much for me. An AoE ability for Atlas? Eh, I guess. It's not something I would have chosen but I suppose it is a valid option. But, what do you mean by cool down? Like the ability cannot be used again until the cool down is done? Not sure why you gave an AoE ability to Atlas, but then put a cool down limit to it, it just doesn't seem necessary. especially with how slow the ability is by default. Yeah, personally, I don't know if I would play Atlas more than I already do with this set of abilities on him, it just doesn't have the same type of feel as before. Maybe it is overall better, who knows, but I don't see it as such. Side note: I'd recommend not trying to copy and paste your black text onto your forum post, it's hard for us Dark Mode users to see it. I had to switch to Light Mode to see it, and now my eyes hurt. Side side note: It can be a little subjective on whether or not Atlas Prime was delayed, because when you think about it, Wukong was technically released first before Atlas. I wouldn't be such a negative nancy when it comes to the way how unpopular frames have been getting attention, considering how we just got the Wukong Rework that turned him into a one-ability never-die frame, into a contender for the best melee frame out right now. Side notes for your side notes, I will try to avoid copy-pasting my research to here and type it all out a second time, in the future if that is necessary. -Decay is something I honestly didn't want to mess with. I can understand how it might be a problem, especially if his gain is reduced, and I do like your idea of only losing Rubble on Health Damage, but configuring a formula based on that idea wouldn't be simple. Honestly, I'm happy his current decay rate doesn't scale off your duration. Its never been a problem on my end -The "Worse Wukong Specter" is a fair argument since his rework. Its made Atlas's Rubblers look even more clown-y than they used to be by comparison. However, they serve the purpose and theme of the character, and even if they don't contribute a lot, them generating rubble, drawing fire, and outputting damage makes them useful enough. - The cool-down attached to the AoE ability is as you were concerned about, akin to how Simaris locks your abilities if you use them too often. This was something that arose from conversing these ideas pre-forum, to prevent Atlas from becoming another Quake Banshee, Saryn, or pre-nerf Ember. This isn't something initially intended to be slammed repeatedly to do AoE damage to the map, this is intended to be a charged up Nuke, more akin to Equinox, and due to the Cast time, and cooldown after use, should make it an ability used as such, without actively interfering with its purpose. As for the would you play him more, I can see the argument there, but my question for you is "How often does your 2, or to an extent, your 4, make a difference?" "When do you use that ability and see any real, serious benefit from it?" Its the same argument that can be said for PRe-work Wukong- How many of his old abilities were actually useful, especially compared to now? Atlas is in a better starting position, no debate, and after some reflection I can see the issue with taking an ability away completely (Hence, the added point of this reply: Is combining his 2 and 4, adding in some land-mines, and giving him an AoE for his new 4 a valid fix?) , But there is room for improvement, and these improvements could come handily with his *delayed* prime. (Wukong arrived in 17.12, Atlas in 17.5, but Atlas came out a full month before Wukong regardless, and was available then) On 2019-07-17 at 7:51 AM, (PS4)FK2P said: He should come with a small buff because of how unpopular he is. Just a few small tweaks and minor buffs would do it On 2019-07-17 at 10:55 AM, Scruffel said: I wouldn't be such a negative nancy when it comes to the way how unpopular frames have been getting attention, considering how we just got the Wukong Rework that turned him into a one-ability never-die frame, into a contender for the best melee frame out right now. As for this, that's my main point with the ideas proposed above. Wukong is a Prime example of how a Prime frame and a rework can change a frame people barely use into a contender for a top frame in the meta for a purpose. Wukong's specter is honestly really potent, and hes still a pretty incredible frame for surviving even without his old Defy. I think it wouldn't be so difficult for Atlas to go from a "Two-bit, Petrify into Landslide" frame, who in all truth is more Bruiser than Tank anyway (This after his first rework he got, on top of that) into something far more interesting- a true titan of Earth, who only becomes more of a force to be reckoned with as he builds himself up with the rubble of the foes he's felled. ..... Maybe that's just my escapist fantasy talking, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DConagher Posted July 19, 2019 Author Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said: --His Rubble cap is already crazy: I got it to 1500 armor recently. That's a LOT. The hard part? Maintaining it. I think the best fix for this is to make Rubble grant Energy to Atlas (maybe 50?). This is similar, in concept, to how Nidus' casting his 1 correctly will regenerate the entire cost of the ability. Petrify costs 75 and Landslide 25, baseline, so that sounds fair... If they reduce the cost of Petrify to 25, that would make the biggest difference. --Damage boost? Honestly, I don't think he needs it. His fists are strong. And if an enemy survives the first hit, then I just have an excuse to actually use the chaining bonus! Note that Landslide is affected by the mods on your melee weapon (most of them) and the combo counter, and even by the Steel Charge aura. But tell ya what, they should add one more stage to the combo chain, that increases damage by 800% and completely negates the cost (for those especially tough enemies somehow needing a 4th+ punch). I agree with scaling Range. --Thing is... I like the concept of Tectonics, but I feel it's poorly implemented. If it was a larger wall (Atlas' height minimum), and curved to cover 180 degrees in the direction Atlas faces (and scaled with a range stat to determine radius), that would actually make it useful and give him a decent niche on Defense maps (MOVE ASIDE FROST AND GARA). I think they could make the augment a baseline feature of it (allow him to place 3 walls, get rid of the boulder). But then make it so his punch can target his own walls, which sends a small "avalanche" of damage in the direction of the wall/punch, while also destroying the wall. Petrify can still boost it's strength. --But tell ya what - swap that with the Rumblers anyways. A beefed up Tectonics actually feels like a decent 4th ability, I guess. If you want, make it cost Rubble for fun. Interesting feedback. I can understand maintaining his rubble being a bit difficult, though I personally haven't had that be an issue. The energy back would be an awesome buff to him, but as a Zenurik player I never had issues with energy, and having even more of it scares me. I like the concept of increasing the Combo Chain as well- Scaling it up would be neat, but the biggest issue is you'd have to make the uppercut into the 4th hit, or add a 4th hit after the uppercut that still would make sense in a punching chain. What if Atlas's Landslide had a pair of Rocken Gauntlets that became more similar to say, Garuda's Talons? It would let us still have Landslide as a targeted punch and first ability, with a combo chain for consecutive hits, and we could have a fist stance mod for it as a quick-melee, to just clobber people! That would be awesome, but obviously we can't have any rivens for it then, and if it scales off the base damage of landslide, it would be relatively spooky. Something to consider, though? I can agree with you on the concept of Tectonics being cool- How do you feel about the suggestion in my other reply, of combining his 2, 4, and adding Landmines, and having it function similar to wisp's 1st ability, where we can rotate between what we evoke? As for the punching the walls and petrify boosting the damage, giving the walls a purpose and role in his kit would make them AWESOME, and if they were to go forward with the idea of melding these abilities together, being able to landslide into your walls and detonate them and the mines with his proposed new 4th would be a very cool interaction, and give him a kind of neat aspect as a defense frame, especially on mission types like Interception! Edited July 19, 2019 by DConagher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrakeWurrum Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) 31 minutes ago, DConagher said: Interesting feedback. I can understand maintaining his rubble being a bit difficult, though I personally haven't had that be an issue. The energy back would be an awesome buff to him, but as a Zenurik player I never had issues with energy, and having even more of it scares me. Well, as a Madurai player, I don't like it when a frame "requires" Zenurik. 😉 31 minutes ago, DConagher said: I like the concept of increasing the Combo Chain as well- Scaling it up would be neat, but the biggest issue is you'd have to make the uppercut into the 4th hit, or add a 4th hit after the uppercut that still would make sense in a punching chain. I think they'd just make the Uppercut into the 4th hit. They already have all the animations they need from his current punches to toss in an extra hit in between the 2nd and 4th, I'd imagine. 31 minutes ago, DConagher said: I can agree with you on the concept of Tectonics being cool- How do you feel about the suggestion in my other reply, of combining his 2, 4, and adding Landmines, and having it function similar to wisp's 1st ability, where we can rotate between what we evoke? As for the punching the walls and petrify boosting the damage, giving the walls a purpose and role in his kit would make them AWESOME, and if they were to go forward with the idea of melding these abilities together, being able to landslide into your walls and detonate them and the mines with his 4 would be a very cool interaction, and give him a kind of neat aspect as a defense frame, especially on mission types like Interception! Hrm... from what I understand, you're saying you would want to give him a skill that has 3 different uses of manipulating earth - walls, golems, and mines? And you'd want to give him some sort of "rubble burst" nuke ability to replace his 4th? I only glanced at it briefly as I'm about to get some belated sleep. It makes Atlas sound way more busy than he currently is and maybe... gives him too much? My main thought is that mines, traps, etc (considering my experiences with Vauban) just don't work well in the game right now. Plus, giving Atlas a nuke when he already has Landslide seems... redundant. I think it takes him much further away from his "brawler" theme than DE would be comfortable with. From my experiences playing Atlas, my main concerns are... For getting Rubble's Armor boost capped, his Energy costs are ridiculous Tectonics is either useless, or else of limited use, and I feel it falls short (literally, even!) His Rumblers, while a fun concept... are underwhelming, and lack decent synergy. (besides being healed by Petrify - but Petrify's high Energy cost doesn't make that worth doing) So maybe, to deal with that 3rd point - what if using Landslide caused active Rumblers to also Landslide - either to your target, or one near them? I have no idea if that would make his damage too insane, but it would be fun synergy, and it would be nice to have some limited control over what the Rumblers do. At the very least, it would help to reinforce his "brawler" theme. If this is done, we wouldn't even need to bother with the extra combo chain stage on Landslide. 3 Landslides for the cost of one! So if we go with the full brunt of what I suggest: Rubble now restores Energy based on Petrify's cost (whether a fraction, or the full cost, either way - we can make it work) Petrify's cost should be reduced to a more workable number (ideally 25, but 35 or 40 is fine) Landslide scales with Range Tectonics creates taller walls (Atlas height, maybe another meter), curved 180 degrees around Atlas in the direction he is facing - the radius scales with Range. They no longer get converted into boulders, and he can create 3 of them. These walls can be hit with Landslide to destroy the wall and send an "avalanche" in the direction of the wall, scaling off the damage of Landslide, and can still be strengthened by Petrify. (optional augment: the walls reflect a portion of damage to attackers) Swap Rumblers and Tectonics - so Tectonics is now his 4th. Landslide now causes your Rumblers to also use their own Landslide - either on your target, or their nearest target. But now I feel like I'm injecting my ideas into your thread, and I feel rude. :S Edited July 19, 2019 by DrakeWurrum 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DConagher Posted July 19, 2019 Author Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said: Well, as a Madurai player, I don't like it when a frame "requires" Zenurik. 😉 I think they'd just make the Uppercut into the 4th hit. They already have all the animations they need from his current punches to toss in an extra hit in between the 2nd and 4th, I'd imagine. Hrm... from what I understand, you're saying you would want to give him a skill that has 3 different uses of manipulating earth - walls, golems, and mines? And you'd want to give him some sort of "rubble burst" nuke ability to replace his 4th? I only glanced at it briefly as I'm about to get some belated sleep. It makes Atlas sound way more busy than he currently is and maybe... gives him too much? My main thought is that mines, traps, etc (considering my experiences with Vauban) just don't work well in the game right now. Plus, giving Atlas a nuke when he already has Landslide seems... redundant. I think it takes him much further away from his "brawler" theme than DE would be comfortable with. From my experiences playing Atlas, my main concerns are... For getting Rubble's Armor boost capped, his Energy costs are ridiculous Tectonics is either useless, or else of limited use, and I feel it falls short (literally, even!) His Rumblers, while a fun concept... are underwhelming, and lack decent synergy. (besides being healed by Petrify - but Petrify's high Energy cost doesn't make that worth doing) So maybe, to deal with that 3rd point - what if using Landslide caused active Rumblers to also Landslide - either to your target, or one near them? I have no idea if that would make his damage too insane, but it would be fun synergy, and it would be nice to have some limited control over what the Rumblers do. At the very least, it would help to reinforce his "brawler" theme. If this is done, we wouldn't even need to bother with the extra combo chain stage on Landslide. 3 Landslides for the cost of one! So if we go with the full brunt of what I suggest: Rubble now restores Energy based on Petrify's cost (whether a fraction, or the full cost, either way - we can make it work) Petrify's cost should be reduced to a more workable number (ideally 25, but 35 or 40 is fine) Landslide scales with Range Tectonics creates taller walls (Atlas height, maybe another meter), curved 180 degrees around Atlas in the direction he is facing - the radius scales with Range. They no longer get converted into boulders, and he can create 3 of them. These walls can be hit with Landslide to destroy the wall and send an "avalanche" in the direction of the wall, scaling off the damage of Landslide, and can still be strengthened by Petrify. (optional augment: the walls reflect a portion of damage to attackers) Swap Rumblers and Tectonics - so Tectonics is now his 4th. Landslide now causes your Rumblers to also use their own Landslide - either on your target, or their nearest target. But now I feel like I'm injecting my ideas into your thread, and I feel rude. :S That's the point of the thread, I want feedback and cool ideas! Your points about his costs definitely make sense, part of the reason I went Zen over the other schools is because of its *on demand* energy. Hunter Adren/Rage/ Energize help, but those cna all be quite expensive to build around, and without any of them I imagine he definitely would have some energy woes. Rumblers also landsliding sounds badass, not gonna lie- I want that yesterday! It would fit amazingly with his themes and let the Gym-bros go ham on squads with you. Especially if you had the ability to summon more than 2 of them! When raids come back, 8 Atlas + specters roll up to raid as a horde of golems flatten the content I can see your point of making the one button doing 3 abilities and having a 4th for a nuke besides Atlas feel redundant and/or busy; my main concept with the 3 buttons into 1 has come from my enjoyment of wisp's 3 buffs she can place off her 1 (Shes the only other frame I've tried so far that Im actually hooked on, like I've been with Atlas). The mines were a random toss-in to fit the more defense oriented idea, but having at least the ability to earth-meld multiple golems and walls innately (with no augments) and if they have other effects tied to them, would give him some phenomenal potential. As for the "earth nuke", yeah that about sums it up- The purpose for it would be in recompense for those who ran the AoE Range build on Punch, as well as to give literally the Big Red Button; Horde of content-> Button-> No more content The extra stage of the landslide combo sounds kinda neat, and the extra increase in damage would be terrifying, so I'd be on board for that, too! As for keeping with his brawler theme, he's not *just* a brawler, but I do see your point. Maybe that's why he doesn't already have something like an Earthquake Edited July 19, 2019 by DConagher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CommanderC2121 Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) Small idea: what if all his abilities besides landslide scaled off rubble? Like nidus stacks? keep rubble uncapped, and make it so petrify, tectonics and rumblers use a set amount of rubble to cast each (maybw change rubble to just getting kills with landslide) and make the effectiveness scale off the amount of rubble you carry. tectonics grows in width the more you have, petrify has its cone size increase, maybe even going 360 degrees if you have enough rubble. Rumblers grow in size, strength, and maybe even number(?) on the field. Landslide: kills generate 25 rubble (50 if target is petrified) and allows atlas to stack rubble without a cap. Tectonics: costs 75 rubble (might need to change costs as needed for balance, 75 is place holder). places a curved wall in front if atlas, covering a baseline 45 degree arc. Wall durability scales off strength and armor mods (and armor factored by rubble) for durability, and its length increases based on rubble count, meaning with enough rubble you could make a ring. If tectonics are known for one thing, its that they are tough as all hell to break through for enemies. Maybe add incentives to make the ring, like enemies stuck within it take bonus damage or something, or give it a gara like effect while punching the wall (or ring) makes a shotgun effect. Petrify: 100 rubble (subject to change). Enemies in atlas view are petrified. Duration affected by duration mods, range scales same way as tectonics, with a possible 360 effect radius. Imagine being able to combo atlas abilities, having 4k rubble, jumping into a group of enemies and making a ring of tectonics around them, then petrifying the whole lot too. Talk about a thunderdome....thunder-ring? rumblers: 150 rubble (subject to change) Spawns 1 rumbler (plus one for every 1000 rubble to a cap of 5) that scale off strength and armor modifiers. If recast, they explode dropping rubble based on how much damage they did during their lifespan. Edited July 19, 2019 by (PS4)CommanderC2121 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubbleRain Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 6 hours ago, DConagher said: I can see where you're coming from with this, and I racked my brain on it, so I'm curious: how you would suggest strengthening Tectonics? We already have frames like Gara, Frost, and to an extent other lock-down-oriented (Or at the very least, area control) frames like Vauban and Limbo. We don't just want another wall, or a dome, Right? Making the wall scale in size off Strength/range was a possibility, but again, its just another wall at that point. Other frames can do that job a lot better. Generally, I think reworks are more feasible when you can keep all the animations and models the devs worked so hard to create, but I just can't see that with tectonics. Thus, the change I'm about to suggest will be a little unrealistic. Put Rumblers on his second ability, make them 50 energy. Dont think anybody will really disagree with that. Tectonics is now Atlas's 100 energy ultimate. Base health moves from 3750 to 5000, holding the ability charges rubble into it to give it armor, maxing at 600. Instead of a wall, Tectonics now creates a dome (a little similar to Khora?) centered around Atlas ( I know this steals Frost's thunder a bit but frost can cast multiple balls as well as get his globe up to 1,000,000 Max ehp while Atlas's will hover under 100,000 generally). Finally, and this is the kicker, allies inside the bubble gain grey health. Damage immunity, status effect immunity, the works. This might actually give him some niche usage against eidolons. However, you cannot shoot through the dome by any means, including aoe guns like the tonkor. Abilities of course still work, and nullie bubbles will drain it instead of instantly destroying it. Recasting from inside will create a boulder ( like the existing one just bigger) with a slight suction. Enemies hit are petrified, pulled along, and dealt 1500 base damage (affected by melee mods). Enemies petrified by the boulder drop double rubble. This isn't my most well thought out idea, nor my most likely, but I still hope something like this gets added. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrakeWurrum Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, RubbleRain said: Generally, I think reworks are more feasible when you can keep all the animations and models the devs worked so hard to create, but I just can't see that with tectonics. Thus, the change I'm about to suggest will be a little unrealistic. Put Rumblers on his second ability, make them 50 energy. Dont think anybody will really disagree with that. Tectonics is now Atlas's 100 energy ultimate. Base health moves from 3750 to 5000, holding the ability charges rubble into it to give it armor, maxing at 600. Instead of a wall, Tectonics now creates a dome (a little similar to Khora?) centered around Atlas ( I know this steals Frost's thunder a bit but frost can cast multiple balls as well as get his globe up to 1,000,000 Max ehp while Atlas's will hover under 100,000 generally). Finally, and this is the kicker, allies inside the bubble gain grey health. Damage immunity, status effect immunity, the works. This might actually give him some niche usage against eidolons. However, you cannot shoot through the dome by any means, including aoe guns like the tonkor. Abilities of course still work, and nullie bubbles will drain it instead of instantly destroying it. Recasting from inside will create a boulder ( like the existing one just bigger) with a slight suction. Enemies hit are petrified, pulled along, and dealt 1500 base damage (affected by melee mods). Enemies petrified by the boulder drop double rubble. This isn't my most well thought out idea, nor my most likely, but I still hope something like this gets added. I think if we keep Tectonics as creating more of a "fence" rather than a dome, it would be more feasible in that it still basically fits in line with what it already does, without outright cloning another frame's ability. Like what I suggested above: 13 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said: Tectonics creates taller walls (Atlas height, maybe another meter), curved 180 degrees around Atlas in the direction he is facing - the radius scales with Range. They no longer get converted into boulders, and he can create 3 of them. These walls can be hit with Landslide to destroy the wall and send an "avalanche" in the direction of the wall, scaling off the damage of Landslide, and can still be strengthened by Petrify. (optional augment: the walls reflect a portion of damage to attackers) Was just playing with Atlas and realized his walls are already Atlas height. And looking at it, I'm not sure it really needs to be taller, is just needs to actually be a decent length. So if it had a minimum radius of, say... 6 meters, and that scaled with range, to create 180 degrees of wall in the direction Atlas is facing, that would still be feasible for his current design. If the devs wanted to keep the "boulder" setup, they could mix that in to the bit about punching the wall with Landslide - so it breaks a section of the wall to send a boulder rolling forward. I still think the boulder thing doesn't work well, and that he should just be able to sort of "shotgun" the pieces of his wall in a direction. Maybe if the boulder was always as fast and powerful as the petrified boulders are... I think Petrify should be able to repair walls, while still petrifying enemies on the other side of it. Edited July 19, 2019 by DrakeWurrum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruffel Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 15 hours ago, DConagher said: Hi, where is the "escapist fantasy"? Its fun to punch people. As I stated, other people find the game fun in their own way- That's my form of entertainment with the game. That's all this is. Chill, it was a joke. A simple jest. 15 hours ago, DConagher said: As for your suggestion on combining Tectonics and Rumbler and the problems both you and RubbleRain have brought up, would it be simple enough to make his second ability into an Earth-Mold skill, with 2-3 different options similar to how Wisp's 1 functions? Have him gain the ability to make walls, rumbler buddies, and maybe something like landmines, with a capped amount of each? My first instinct is to make each one possibly cost rubble, and have him gain rubble with his 1 and 3, to use it with his altered 2 and new 4, but that could be debated both ways due to the concern had with the rubble system as it is. I'm mainly curious how you'd feel with the possibility, like you mentioned, of combining the abilities. Not really, more of just combining Tectonic's Wall, and possible replacing it's Boulder with the Rumblers (or maybe after the Boulder explodes, a Rubble appears for a short amount of time). I don't think mines really fit Atlas's "brawler" theme, but I guess his rock-bending theme, so I'd rather have the more simple option. 15 hours ago, DConagher said: I can see your argument against the increased lunge distance, but in no way would we be gaining more mod-slots to work with. Building Atlas in current day, Range and Strength are both reasonably valid options. Duration Atlas works well for defense with a incredibly long petrify duration, but is somewhat of a meme if we're being honest. I can agree with certain parts of your interpretations in all honesty, but the only place that extra lunge distance is really going to matter is in the more open missions. I didn't talk about increasing mod slots at all, don't know what you're talking about there. 15 hours ago, DConagher said: -Decay is something I honestly didn't want to mess with. I can understand how it might be a problem, especially if his gain is reduced, and I do like your idea of only losing Rubble on Health Damage, but configuring a formula based on that idea wouldn't be simple. Honestly, I'm happy his current decay rate doesn't scale off your duration. Its never been a problem on my end -The "Worse Wukong Specter" is a fair argument since his rework. Its made Atlas's Rubblers look even more clown-y than they used to be by comparison. However, they serve the purpose and theme of the character, and even if they don't contribute a lot, them generating rubble, drawing fire, and outputting damage makes them useful enough. - The cool-down attached to the AoE ability is as you were concerned about, akin to how Simaris locks your abilities if you use them too often. This was something that arose from conversing these ideas pre-forum, to prevent Atlas from becoming another Quake Banshee, Saryn, or pre-nerf Ember. This isn't something initially intended to be slammed repeatedly to do AoE damage to the map, this is intended to be a charged up Nuke, more akin to Equinox, and due to the Cast time, and cooldown after use, should make it an ability used as such, without actively interfering with its purpose. What do you mean specifically by "but configuring a formula based on that idea wouldn't be simple"? Are you talking about the losing Rubble on Health damage? It's an idea about having the decay start when you take Health damage, don't really see how that's complex. And the issue why I see it as a problem with your Rubble reduction, is that you'd have less time to use an amount of Rubble, let's make a simple situation. So if the Rubble decay stays the same, that's 5 r/s. With your rework, two Petrified Enemies killed from Landslide would be 50 Rubble, and because picking up Rubble delays the decay for two seconds, that means you get 12 seconds total with the Rubble amount. It's decent. But now, two Petrified Landslided Enemies give 150 Rubble, so that would make it a total of 32 seconds for that Rubble amount. That's a whole 20 seconds lost, and losing 100 Rubble from something that used to give way much more. I know the one Rumbler that I get to summon will still do the same as the previous Rumblers, but... it's only one Rumbler now. That means less generating Rubble, less drawing fire, and less outputting damage. Again, I would have to use the augment to get anything near of what I had or wanted to have more of before. It doesn't make sense to gimp them like that. And if you were worried about Atlas becoming a map nuker, maybe just have the Rubble as the cooldown instead? Make it so that there needs to be a specific amount of Rubble available to activate the ability again. It would still technically have a charged up Nuke function, as you'd have to build up Rubble to a specific point to get there. 15 hours ago, DConagher said: As for the would you play him more, I can see the argument there, but my question for you is "How often does your 2, or to an extent, your 4, make a difference?" "When do you use that ability and see any real, serious benefit from it?" Its the same argument that can be said for PRe-work Wukong- How many of his old abilities were actually useful, especially compared to now? Atlas is in a better starting position, no debate, and after some reflection I can see the issue with taking an ability away completely (Hence, the added point of this reply: Is combining his 2 and 4, adding in some land-mines, and giving him an AoE for his new 4 a valid fix?) , But there is room for improvement, and these improvements could come handily with his *delayed* prime. (Wukong arrived in 17.12, Atlas in 17.5, but Atlas came out a full month before Wukong regardless, and was available then) For 2, there are several situations where I actually using. Capturing a target, reviving a teammate or dog/cat/robot bird, hacking a console in the middle of a battle (such as a Bursa or those fragile Corpus windows), Mobile defense, regular Defense, Interception (too slightly delay the enemies approach to consoles), and Disruption. I know it's not a huge list of uses, but I still use it in those situations. And for 4, when I actually do enjoy the Rumblers when I use high Duration, for their small AoE Petrify, for their solo Rubble buildup and heals. I know they don't do the best job, but I think some tweaking of their attacks and synergy can make a difference. It's not a Wukong situation where an ability only has 1 single use and is an easy contender for something to be replaced. And if his 2 and 4 does get combined, and he gets a new ability, that's fine. However, it's only hoping that there aren't 10 caveats to the benefits that the frame gets, and as far as I am concerned, Wukong didn't really come with any of them, maybe at most 2 (his Defy not being that amazing and his Melee Combos for Primal Fury being a bit awkward). I know there are different ways to improve or 'update a frame', I just don't want Atlas to become a different Atlas, rather than a better one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DConagher Posted July 23, 2019 Author Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) This has turned into a very interesting thread, and given me a lot to think about pertaining to Atlas's 2. On 2019-07-19 at 8:02 PM, Scruffel said: I know there are different ways to improve or 'update a frame', I just don't want Atlas to become a different Atlas, rather than a better one. On 2019-07-19 at 10:21 AM, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said: Imagine being able to combo atlas abilities, having 4k rubble, jumping into a group of enemies and making a ring of tectonics around them, then petrifying the whole lot too. Talk about a thunderdome....thunder-ring? On 2019-07-19 at 5:25 PM, DrakeWurrum said: I think if we keep Tectonics as creating more of a "fence" rather than a dome, it would be more feasible in that it still basically fits in line with what it already does, without outright cloning another frame's ability. Like what I suggested above: Was just playing with Atlas and realized his walls are already Atlas height. And looking at it, I'm not sure it really needs to be taller, is just needs to actually be a decent length. So if it had a minimum radius of, say... 6 meters, and that scaled with range, to create 180 degrees of wall in the direction Atlas is facing, that would still be feasible for his current design. There has been a lot of talk and some interesting concepts thrown around here. Being honest, you can't play a frame for hundreds of hours and love it, and ALSO want the frame changed to be a different frame entirely. If Atlas is fated to stick with his Tectonics and his Rumblers remain sub-par as minions (by comparison to things like Wukong's Specter), that isn't going to be the end of Atlas. Whether he gets buffed or not, or reworked or not, hes still going to be an awesome frame. I hope him being primed will make more people try him, now that hes not locked behind Archwing/plat gates. Hes in a much better place than when Brozime had a few ideas for a rework way back in 2017. His Tectonics however, as an ability; is it not at least *kind of* lack-luster? Even with the augment, the 3 "fences" we throw up around an objective could never honestly compete with something like Snowglobe, or the Rift putting it in a separate dimension, or even to an extent, barricading it off with a wall of Glass, and without the augment, its only really great for 1 door or hallway. Rolling it as a boulder is never going to deal a significant damage output currently- certainly no where close to what we can do with *just *Landslide. It can be fun, and it has its limited uses, but does it have purpose and value enough to be there? His Rumblers are ok, to be fair. They do their job of showing up, yeeting rocks at people, taking fire, and generating rubble. If they get left alone, cool. Yet again, however; they can be at least slightly expensive if you don't rock the efficiency for them, and Range/Duration being negatived for any reason does hurt the ability to a fair extent. And, yet again, the augment for them is simply not worth it. To an arguable degree, even Path of Statues isn't really worth the mod-slot either. If naught else were to happen to the frame, most of his augments could use some touching up. But, in terms of non-augment changes and reworks, there have been a couple great ideas that have shown up here in this thread: - Having your Rumblers landslide with you would be awesome! - Having all your abilities scale off Rubble would tie the mechanic together nicely, and this is not the first time someone has brought up the idea to shotgun the walls (see Broz's vid)- That would give them an amazing purpose, as well as give him some more plausible AoE. I'd absolutely love to see this! - Originally, I would have wanted Tectonics gone in trade for something more utilitarian and/or damage focused; After having played (and enjoyed) Wisp as well as leveled Khora however, its become apparent Tectonics would not *need* to be removed so much as put together with some other aspects of his kit (I wasn't fully aware abilities could be combined onto 1 key). It seems this would be far more acceptable of an option, as he doesn't "lose" anything. - It has also been brought up Atlas is more of a "brawler". While I can agree he is a brawler, he is more than just that. The mines may not tie into that theme very well though, and partially that was just as a 3rd option to have to aid his defensive prowess. Is there another simple "earth-bending" like concept that could be tossed in with his Wall and Rubblers? These suggestions from you all sound awesome, and would fit in keeping Atlas as an Gaian Brawler, a [Ground][Fighting] type if you will. When combined with some of the original points I wanted to bring up, a new Tl;DR list of possible changes could be: - Uncapping Atlas's Rubble - Changing the rates he gains, and the ways he loses, rubble - Changing how his abilities work with his Rubble - Combine his 2nd ability, Tectonics, and his current 4th, Rumblers, and toss in an armor-buffing Monolith into a new second ability; Evoke - Give him a new 4th ability, one that could spend rubble and covers something he's missing; Vesuvius - Change Landslide to gain lunge distance based on Range (?) (This one would be more debatable, especially if Vesuvius isn't just a 4-to-nuke button- we don't want to remove something others enjoy about the frame, as I have clearly been shown in this thread XD) To go down the list into detail, uncapping the Rubble will in general just be a useful fix. If you can generate more, it will reward you for it. Changing the rates he gains and ways he loses Rubble will fix one issue other players seem to have; being unable to maintain reasonable rubble. To begin with, as Scruffle brought up, you could now only have rubble decay upon taking Health damage or standing in a nully bubble, and gaining rubble or a small amount of time would stop this The rate we gain Rubble at can honestly be left alone, especially if the abilities themselves will innately work off the rubble and no scaling damage needs to be calculated. His abilities could now interact with Rubble in a more cohesive way, similar in a vein to what CommanderC2121 mentioned: -His new second ability "Evoke" would consume 50 rubble (no energy) to create a Tectonic Wall, Rumbler, or Stone Monolith. The Rumblers would function as they do now, with the added caveats that, as Drakewurrum thought up, the Rumblers would also Landslide to enemies on occasion or whenever you use Landslide's *3rd* hit, and no longer have a duration. The Walls could be punched into, causing them to fire in a directional-shotgun-cone of rock and flint (To compensate for the inability to roll them). More-over, the walls would scale in size based on Ability Strength. The Monolith would give an armor buff to frames that enter it (Scaled off strength), and would function much like Wisps 1- the Monolith would have no duration (However, it would have health), and the buff given would only decay outside of its AoE. At base, you can make a total of 5 evoked creations at any given time. ^Nullfiers would interact with this ability much as they do with our current Rumblers- They would rapidly sap the HP of the Evoked creations, rather than instantly disable them. -His Petrify could cost 50 energy now, instead of its previous 75. --Petrifying the Wall would increase the damage dealt when it is punched as well as repair it. --Petrifying the Rumblers would slow them but increase their damage, as well as repair them. --Petrifying the Monolith would repair it, as well as increase the amount of armor given by the buff. His new fourth ability "Vesuvius" would consume *500* rubble (no energy) to cast, with a 3 second cast time. Atlas calls the rubble into his fist, and slams it into the floor, detonating any Evoked creations within the 13/18/25m AoE (scaled off Range). This ability would knock down any enemies susceptible, as well as reduce their base armor by 25 (Scaling with power strength) as it pulses out, before fissuring the ground and dealing 400/600/800 damage (scaled with ability Strength). The long and short of these new ideas, in conjunction with whats been recommended in this thread and others, is a bit more comprehensive change list to Atlas would make him into more of an *Earth* , and emphasis on the earth, brawler, and give him more to do without being too busy in the long run. Vesuvius being able to strip armor would give him a lot of potential in higher end content, doing both a lot of damage and having reasonably useful CC, while also helping him against heavily armored later-game content, and follows the theme of Shattering Impact in removing a fair amount of the base armor, even before power strength. Considering these revisions and accounting for your contributions to the concept, how would you feel about these changes? - Uncapping Atlas's Rubble - Changing the rates he gains, and the ways he loses, rubble - Changing how his abilities work with his Rubble - Combine his 2nd ability, Tectonics, and his current 4th, Rumblers, and toss in an armor-buffing Monolith into a new second ability; Evoke - Give him a new 4th ability, one that could spend rubble and covers something he's missing; Vesuvius - Change Landslide to gain lunge distance based on Range (?) Edited July 24, 2019 by DConagher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitometeta Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) I don't think tectonics is a necessarily horrible ability, it just needs to be buffed like... a lot. The launching aspect of it is completely unnecessary as Atlas already has much better ways of doing hecktons o' damage. The wall should be made much wider, somewhat taller and a bit beefier in health. I think it's a bare minimum that you should be able to entirely block off larger hallways from enemies and not just bury cryopods in pebbles. His warframe profile even says "moving mountains is no easy task" yet he's not really moving much to begin with. But yeah, Rumblers just doesn't fit his theme. I don't know who thought of a fist-fighting titan themed frame and went "Hmm... yeah, we should give him a summoning ability so the brawler can sit back and watch someone fight for him!" Because it makes no sense in my opinion. I also like the idea of Rubble damage scaling but I think it should boost the damage of his landslide instead. I know he can already do pretty big chunks of damage with it but it still falls off against high level grineer and most non-shield enemies. It also just makes sense that the more mass Atlas has from boulders attached to him the more impact his fists would do when charging into enemies. I mean if Saryn can infinitely ramp damage why couldn't another frame that isn't even as effective at dishing said damage out over a large area have it? Edited July 23, 2019 by Mitometeta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autongnosis Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) Tbh i think atlas needs iteration more than substitution. Rubble could honestly be uncapped as armour tanks are bad anyway, maybe with an exponential scaling? Like first 1500 is 1 rubble = 1 armour point, and then it doubles every 500 more (1-1500 1:1, 1501-2000 2:1, 2001-2500 4:1 etc). So you could theoretically accumulate endless amounts but with a soft cap. Landslide is good but a) it needs to become a proper exalted weapon and b) there are some inconsistencies like healing return and shattering impact that make absolutely no sense. Petrify is great but, like Avalanche, it really shouldn't make enemies immune to procs as at some point that becomes an hindrance more than a boon. It would be less problematic if not for the fact that rubble only comes from petrify and it's so capital to his kit. Tectonics is meh in general, it would be better if it was at least big instead of this smallish square thingy. Personally I'd remove the tap to throw function and instead make landslide able to explode the wall outwards in a cone AoE, with the same dmg as landslide itself only fully puncture instead of fully impact. Rumblers are a trickier one, a few ideas were making them into guardians (their AI basically prioritise bodyblocking bullets in your place) or having them do a lower powered version of landslide on the nearest enemy whenever you cast your own landslide. Edited July 23, 2019 by Autongnosis 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DConagher Posted July 23, 2019 Author Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Autongnosis said: Tbh i think atlas needs iteration more than substitution. Rubble could honestly be uncapped as armour tanks are bad anyway, maybe with an exponential scaling? Like first 1500 is 1 rubble = 1 armour point, and then it doubles every 500 more (1-1500 1:1, 1501-2000 2:1, 2001-2500 4:1 etc). So you could theoretically accumulate endless amounts but with a soft cap. Landslide is good but a) it needs to become a proper exalted weapon and b) there are some inconsistencies like healing return and shattering impact that make absolutely no sense. Petrify is great but, like Avalanche, it really shouldn't make enemies immune to procs as at some point that becomes an hindrance more than a boon. It would be less problematic if not for the fact that rubble only comes from petrify and it's so capital to his kit. Tectonics is meh in general, it would be better if it was at least big instead of this smallish square thingy. Personally I'd remove the tap to throw function and instead make landslide able to explode the wall outwards in a cone AoE, with the same dmg as landslide itself only fully puncture instead of fully impact. Rumblers are a trickier one, a few ideas were making them into guardians (their AI basically prioritise bodyblocking bullets in your place) or having them do a lower powered version of landslide on the nearest enemy whenever you cast your own landslide. The rubble being uncapped but with an armor point? How do you mean exactly? Something like the melee combo where it ramps up? I don't quite follow you. As for the soft cap, being able to scale the actual rubble itself, with no other complex mechanics, will still net you rather scary armor potential. With the Umbral Fiber 1 rank off max, with all 3 mods, it gets Atlas to 1,237 armor on my build currently. +1,500 from Rubble, if it can be maintained, and Arcane Guardian, you're going to be at that 10% damage taken threshold relatively easily.The purpose for uncapping it and changing it is so that if you stop maintaining, you can coast in that 1,500 range without needing to constantly kill things. My usual number I try to maintain, current game, is 1,200-1,300 Landslide having an exalted weapon is something I've been wondering about for a while, and something I've brought up on other threads before. The responses I've received have been less supportive of that, and I've grown to echo that position- Making it a dedicated "exalted ability" would be a mistake. If his 1 becomes a channeled Exalted ability, even if its more similar to Hildryn, at minimum it will lose the benefit of melee rivens. Gara, Khora, and Atlas are alone in that they benefited from Rivens, and I believe that is part of the reason they didn't receive the exalted treatment. Also, how will invulnerability work with it, if its a dedicated ability. Invuln until you turn off the weapon or run out of energy? The best route I've seen brought up towards that end is Garuda and her Talons. Atlas could make use of something of that nature, but if any changes occur there he is almost certainly losing out on rivens, let alone any augment mods for stat-sticks like the Jaw Sword. Rubble can come from the landslide augment as well, if you don't like his 3 even post rework. As for the immunity for procs, due to the damage calculations that petrify allows for, and the fact it doesn't remove procs or prevent their damage if they already exist, I've never seen any issue with it prevent status effects for its duration. As for your tectonics idea, part of that is something that has been floating around for a while- Let landslide detonate the wall! Making it all puncture though....why exactly? If anything, why not have it split between the 3 IPS? For Rumblers, the Ai isn't so much the biggest issue. They can bumble about and be as smart as the rocks that make them up all they want to. They just need to make some form of impact for it. As they are, they are reasonably tanky. Having them deal some form of damage and run around and soak, maybe taunting at base even, would give them a lot more "OOMPH" so to speak. Drakewurrum earlier in this thread brought up the idea of Landslide letting your rumblers also landslide. If their landslide is to deal any real damage it will need mods, so having it cast only every 3rd punch or so, as well as just one of their random attacks,would balance them out quite nicely. As for them blocking bullets, that could be "useful" but then you'd have the issue of them getting in the way. Edited July 23, 2019 by DConagher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autongnosis Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 il y a 37 minutes, DConagher a dit : The rubble being uncapped but with an armor point? How do you mean exactly? Something like the melee combo where it ramps up? Landslide having an exalted weapon is something I've been wondering about for a while, and something I've brought up on other threads before. The responses I've received have been less supportive of that, and I've grown to echo that position- Making it a dedicated "exalted ability" would be a mistake. Rubble can come from the landslide augment as well, if you don't like his 3 even post rework. As for the immunity for procs, due to the damage calculations that petrify allows for, and the fact it doesn't remove procs or prevent their damage if they already exist, I've never seen any issue with it prevent status effects for its duration. As for your tectonics idea, part of that is something that has been floating around for a while- Let landslide detonate the wall! Making it all puncture though....why exactly? If anything, why not have it split between the 3 IPS? The rubble currently works like this. Each point of rubble gives you 1 more armour up to 1500. My idea would be, 1 rubble point per armour till 1500, then you double the amount of rubble needed to get 1 more armour for every 500 over the current 1500. So the first 1500 you get when you have 1500 rubble. To get to 2000 armour you need to get 2500 rubble. To get to 2.5k you need to get 4.5k rubble. To get to 3k you need 8.5k, for 3.5k armour 16.5k rubble etc Basically a 2 based exponential equation. It theoretically never caps but at some point you won't feasibly be able to increase your armour much even in a very long run. About exalted landslide i just didn't explain myself properly. The ability mechanics would not change at all, it would just get its own mod screen and get access to all mods other exalted weapons gain access to, namely stuff like healing return, shattering impact, condition overload etc The proc prevention is a problem when trying to fight higher end armoured mooks, because the only way to strip them of at least a portion of their armour is a kitty. Shattering impact not working on landslide makes it that much worse. Btw iirc rubble already does come from path of statues petrification no? About the puncture tectonics it was mostly because of two reasons: - high velocity exploding shards of rock are probably gonna pierce more than smash - specialisation. Landslide is impact only so it's good against shield and robotics, puncture instead is good on armour and neutral on flesh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CommanderC2121 Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 38 minutes ago, Autongnosis said: The rubble currently works like this. Each point of rubble gives you 1 more armour up to 1500. My idea would be, 1 rubble point per armour till 1500, then you double the amount of rubble needed to get 1 more armour for every 500 over the current 1500. So the first 1500 you get when you have 1500 rubble. To get to 2000 armour you need to get 2500 rubble. To get to 2.5k you need to get 4.5k rubble. To get to 3k you need 8.5k, for 3.5k armour 16.5k rubble etc Basically a 2 based exponential equation. It theoretically never caps but at some point you won't feasibly be able to increase your armour much even in a very long run. About exalted landslide i just didn't explain myself properly. The ability mechanics would not change at all, it would just get its own mod screen and get access to all mods other exalted weapons gain access to, namely stuff like healing return, shattering impact, condition overload etc The proc prevention is a problem when trying to fight higher end armoured mooks, because the only way to strip them of at least a portion of their armour is a kitty. Shattering impact not working on landslide makes it that much worse. Btw iirc rubble already does come from path of statues petrification no? About the puncture tectonics it was mostly because of two reasons: - high velocity exploding shards of rock are probably gonna pierce more than smash - specialisation. Landslide is impact only so it's good against shield and robotics, puncture instead is good on armour and neutral on flesh Im one of the people who will say no to making atlas 1 exalted. In its current state it does suck trying to min-max stats due to having, well no visible stats, but the amount of things you lose out on due to it being classified as exalted, like rivens, some augments, etc, are a heavily toll. One reason atlas is as good as he is is due to just dealing sooo much damage with his 1, and any changes I fear would hurt that damage significantly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DConagher Posted July 23, 2019 Author Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Autongnosis said: The rubble currently works like this. Each point of rubble gives you 1 more armour up to 1500. My idea would be, 1 rubble point per armour till 1500, then you double the amount of rubble needed to get 1 more armour for every 500 over the current 1500.So the first 1500 you get when you have 1500 rubble. To get to 2000 armour you need to get 2500 rubble. To get to 2.5k you need to get 4.5k rubble. To get to 3k you need 8.5k, for 3.5k armour 16.5k rubble etc Ah, I see. My question is then, why exactly? The rubble giving tonnes of armor, its never *easily* going to get to the simply obscene amounts needed for more than the 90-95% resistance threshold. and all of that work still isn't netting you too much extra mitigation. 53 minutes ago, Autongnosis said: About exalted landslide i just didn't explain myself properly. The ability mechanics would not change at all, it would just get its own mod screen and get access to all mods other exalted weapons gain access to, namely stuff like healing return, shattering impact, condition overload etc Pick one. The ability can't work off shattering impact, Healing return, and condition overload and remain as it. Either you have separately modifiable *weapon* like Excal's blade, and make it a full on channeled exalted with stance combos. OR You have something like Garuda's Talons, where its a modified melee weapon to give you stats (by the sounds of it, still letting you have a normal melee weapon in addition), which would have to have a pointless stance mod or cost you capacity. Both options in this scenario cost you rivens, if they become separately moddable. That on its own is a pretty major damage hit. If you use a statstick, again, you still lose the augment melee mods adding 100% damage, for things like the Dual Cleavers, Jaw Sword, Skana. As it is, the reason shattering impact and condition overload with landslide isn't exactly perfectly clear, and having shattering impact on landslide would be cool, but a better point is that Atlas's landslide has piss poor status and crit chance (5% each) while comparable skills like Khoras whipclaw have SUBSTANTIALLY more than that- Whipclaw has a 2x crit multiplier as does Landslide, but while landslide has 5% crit and status chance, Whipeclaw has 20% crit and 25% status chance, base. Also, whipclaw benefits from both Range scaling aspects; target distance and explosion AoE, and has a FAAAAAAAAAAAAR better augment in the form of Accumulating Whipclaw. However, where it "falters" is that its damage is spread IPS wise, and it doesn't make you invulnerable on cast. This makes Atlas's 350 base damage seem much higher than her base 300 because of the ability to mod it especially for 1 type. Impact becomes as good as pure damage to Atlas, but conversely, she could feasibly clear content better with her whip due to elemental scaling. Something to definitely consider would be buffing Atlas's Crit/Status chance. That would be something kinda neat that could come with his prime, actually, but I'd think it would be very unlikely they'd do such a thing. 53 minutes ago, Autongnosis said: The proc prevention is a problem when trying to fight higher end armoured mooks, because the only way to strip them of at least a portion of their armour is a kitty. Shattering impact not working on landslide makes it that much worse. Btw iirc rubble already does come from path of statues petrification no? As for this, I could see your argument with proc prevention, if there weren't ways to strip most of their armor with a click or 2, across multiple weapons. Strun Wraith, Drakgoon, or just about any pellet count shotty will do- The riven is Multi/Punchthrough/-Infested and, Path of statues does give rubble currently....that's why I suggested it if you don't like his 3. Its a usable alternative. Edited July 23, 2019 by DConagher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DConagher Posted July 23, 2019 Author Share Posted July 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said: Im one of the people who will say no to making atlas 1 exalted. In its current state it does suck trying to min-max stats due to having, well no visible stats, but the amount of things you lose out on due to it being classified as exalted, like rivens, some augments, etc, are a heavily toll. One reason atlas is as good as he is is due to just dealing sooo much damage with his 1, and any changes I fear would hurt that damage significantly Basically that^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CommanderC2121 Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Another thing to discuss, atlas has a lot of weird stats that dont make sense. Things like landslide range not scaling with range mods (only the explosion radius scales), as @DConagher just said, it has a base crit and status of 5%, but those cant be increased by mods (Only time i can think of reliably critting was when a harrow 4 let me hit head shot, oh boy I was red critting in the millions), rubble picked up not overflowing into armor if you have barely any hp missing, bulwarks blocking damage but not explosions, petrify FoV being unaffected by range mods, only length of cone is affected, and finally petrify duration is affected by duration mods, unless the petrify is from the rumblers AoE petrify, which is unaffected. If atlas could get these weird stats evened out, as well as changes to his kit, and even his augments maybe (plz, no one uses ore gaze or path of statues, and ive only seen titanic rumbler once) he would be in such a better spot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)hellothisismufin Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Just to add to what everyone is saying about Tectonics, I think you can add AoE onto it while still keeping (albeit buffing) it's defensive capabilities. Switching it up to work like Oberon's Hallowed Ground where it covers a cone that can be built into a full circle with range, applying damage on the first cast with a slow to any enemies inside, then a Gara-esque wall mechanic at the edge could give Atlas more of a defensive presence while also adding a spread option and more incentive to build for range than just Landslide. A case could even be made for Rubble applying more health or armor to the wall or more damage or a better slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DConagher Posted July 23, 2019 Author Share Posted July 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said: Another thing to discuss, atlas has a lot of weird stats that dont make sense. Things like landslide range not scaling with range mods (only the explosion radius scales), as @DConagher just said, it has a base crit and status of 5%, but those cant be increased by mods (Only time i can think of reliably critting was when a harrow 4 let me hit head shot, oh boy I was red critting in the millions), rubble picked up not overflowing into armor if you have barely any hp missing, bulwarks blocking damage but not explosions, petrify FoV being unaffected by range mods, only length of cone is affected, and finally petrify duration is affected by duration mods, unless the petrify is from the rumblers AoE petrify, which is unaffected. If atlas could get these weird stats evened out, as well as changes to his kit, and even his augments maybe (plz, no one uses ore gaze or path of statues, and ive only seen titanic rumbler once) he would be in such a better spot You're right @CommanderC2121, his weird stats are there, and giving him some crit love would be neat; Before any of that though, Augments! I brought it up a bit earlier, and you're right, his augments are kinda garbo for this state of the game. And, with these possible ability reworks, his augments would need some new love. Path of Statues used to be go-to back in the day (Old *channeled* petrify era), because you didn't have other cc options. Now that his kit has other CC, how about Path of Statues increases your next punches damage for every petrified enemy you've killed? Maybe the *augment* lets him gain some base damage for landslide, based on his rubble? His new 2 could still work off Tectonic Fracture, just that now it'd have to be more than "get a size-able increase in your evocation limit" from the augment- His base would be 5, but we probably don't want 15 or 20 rumblers running around, fun though it might be. Maybe something to the vein of the Monlith totem armor buff affecting your Rumblers and walls, and applying more armor based on *your* rubble, along with your rumblers now taunting enemies? His 3rd augment needs to be more than just loot generation. The adds scans to codex is nice, but it needs something else, or at least ACTUAL loot gen. What would you all recommend for it? His 4th augment of course would need to be removed and re-printed, since rumblers would be part of his 2- His Vesuvius augment could be that it scales off of, and enemies hit by it add to, your melee combo, making it sort of a Combo-builder/Breaker, and letting it do some more *respectable* damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autongnosis Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) il y a une heure, (PS4)CommanderC2121 a dit : Im one of the people who will say no to making atlas 1 exalted. In its current state it does suck trying to min-max stats due to having, well no visible stats, but the amount of things you lose out on due to it being classified as exalted, like rivens, some augments, etc, are a heavily toll. One reason atlas is as good as he is is due to just dealing sooo much damage with his 1, and any changes I fear would hurt that damage significantly Even the best rivens and mod augments cannot give you what just CO gives you, not even close. So if damage is your main fear, you'd actually gain a lot of it. il y a une heure, DConagher a dit : 1) Ah, I see. My question is then, why exactly? The rubble giving tonnes of armor, its never *easily* going to get to the simply obscene amounts needed for more than the 90-95% resistance threshold. and all of that work still isn't netting you too much extra mitigation. 2) Pick one. The ability can't work off shattering impact, Healing return, and condition overload and remain as it. Either you have separately modifiable *weapon* like Excal's blade, and make it a full on channeled exalted with stance combos. OR You have something like Garuda's Talons, where its a modified melee weapon to give you stats (by the sounds of it, still letting you have a normal melee weapon in addition), which would have to have a pointless stance mod or cost you capacity. 3) Both options in this scenario cost you rivens, if they become separately moddable. That on its own is a pretty major damage hit. If you use a statstick, again, you still lose the augment melee mods adding 100% damage, for things like the Dual Cleavers, Jaw Sword, Skana. 4) As it is, the reason shattering impact and condition overload with landslide isn't exactly perfectly clear, and having shattering impact on landslide would be cool, but a better point is that Atlas's landslide has piss poor status and crit chance (5% each) while comparable skills like Khoras whipclaw have SUBSTANTIALLY more than that- Whipclaw has a 2x crit multiplier as does Landslide, but while landslide has 5% crit and status chance, Whipeclaw has 20% crit and 25% status chance, base. Also, whipclaw benefits from both Range scaling aspects; target distance and explosion AoE, and has a FAAAAAAAAAAAAR better augment in the form of Accumulating Whipclaw. However, where it "falters" is that its damage is spread IPS wise, and it doesn't make you invulnerable on cast. 5) This makes Atlas's 350 base damage seem much higher than her base 300 because of the ability to mod it especially for 1 type. Impact becomes as good as pure damage to Atlas, but conversely, she could feasibly clear content better with her whip due to elemental scaling. Something to definitely consider would be buffing Atlas's Crit/Status chance. That would be something kinda neat that could come with his prime, actually, but I'd think it would be very unlikely they'd do such a thing. 6) As for this, I could see your argument with proc prevention, if there weren't ways to strip most of their armor with a click or 2, across multiple weapons. Strun Wraith, Drakgoon, or just about any pellet count shotty will do- The riven is Multi/Punchthrough/-Infested 7) and, Path of statues does give rubble currently....that's why I suggested it if you don't like his 3. Its a usable alternative. 1) for balancing purposes. You see I'm not a fan of frames being broken. Currently i can cap my rubble in less than 30s if the mission has good enemy density. Imagine that kind of accrue rate (2.5-3k a minute) in a endless mission. That's, for reference, 30k armour in 10 mins and 300k before the enemies hit lv 300. I don't think that's balanced. It would become a stupid situation that later needs some heavy nerfing, particularly coupled with on demand offensive invulnerability windows. 2) why tho. I specifically mean do you think having a separate modding tab and consistent mechanics automatically excludes you from the current cast type? That's just code, it can be changed. It's not an engine limitation. 3) again if you're worrying about damage, CO alone is more important than any riven or weapon augment. One tap of a 100% shotgun multiplies your dmg by 10.5 times. No riven or weapon augment does that. 4) please, do not bring khora into this, she is on an entirely different class currently, because contrary to atlas she was designed properly and iterated upon with some care. Khora has enough perks in her kit and design that she can survive well enough without any of the actually good melee combinations. Atlas has none of that. 5) impact focused builds on atlas have always made me laugh really hard. You skew your danage towards a very bad type, skew your proc rate (no matter how low) towards a 100% useless proc and leave out mods that actually work. 6) so you'd need to, under fire, manually strip all targets before petrifying them, hoping they don't die in the meantime or it would be useless. And woe to any poor guy with a DoT build in your team (not like everyone and their mother is running about with viral+slash weapons) 7) never said i don't like his 3, i said proc immunity for petrified targets is a factor that greatly holds back atlas' damage potential, even outside of landslide. Edited July 23, 2019 by Autongnosis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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