Please do not cave on Nightwave.

[Shaburanigud]

I'd love it included a real challenge.
And a tad more thematic if possible.

For example, the nightwave we have now is infested related is it not?
Why not make a special challenge where we have to fight enhanced Infested Bosses?
And for that week add a special mission where the target infested boss is actually harder then usual.
That would be lovely.

I'm always waiting for a boss rush mode in warframe. Wonder if it can happen for these types of occasions.

[Teridax68]

I think there's a more nuanced discussion to be had on the subject of Nightwave, but framing it purely in terms of player entitlement and aversion to challenge is just about one of the silliest and most counter-productive ways of going about it. To start, the criticism of Nightwave challenges is much more diverse than the OP insinuates, and while there are indeed some people asking for certain challenges to be dumbed down just because they personally cannot complete them on the first try, that doesn't cover most of the criticism actually being made.

With this in mind, let's list out a few more of the criticisms that are actually being made around Nightwave:

• "This challenge requires no actual gameplay and is essentially just a chore" This is a criticism typically made of challenges like "Bullet Jump X times", "Collect X rare mods", "Deploy a glyph", and so on. It is stupid to pretend that people just want Nightwave to be made easier when many players point out that some challenges are too easy, to the point where they cannot be called challenges at all. It is also at this point that some players start waxing nostalgic about Alerts, because Alerts at least had the player play a mission, and thus engage in actual gameplay, whereas being asked to bullet jump a number of times or mark a certain number of resources really is just mild busywork. While Nightwave is meant to give us things to do, the things it asks us to do should ideally be inherently fun, as Warframe is a video game.
• "This challenge has no inherent gameplay and merely forces me to expend resources" This is a criticism levied against gilding, Ayatan, and Forma "challenges", and just like the above chore-type challenges, there is no actual skill expression, challenge, etc. tied to their completion. To veteran players who may already have expended the Forma they wanted, and built all of the relevant modular weapons, these challenges often feel wasteful, and in the worst cases it induces a chilling effect when it makes players hold off of normal resource expenditure until the associated challenge arrives. These challenges therefore tend to be counterproductive overall, and it would likely be to both DE's and the player's benefit if they were removed entirely.
• "This challenge is too difficult/I don't like the gameplay tied to this challenge, so remove it" This is the kind of criticism the OP mentions, and yeah, it does get made, and it's not really great criticism to make. Personal taste is subjective, and so is challenge to a large extent. I haven't seen many players complain about Profit-Taker or the Ropalolyst being too difficult to fight, but I can agree that dumbing down the Kuva Survival/Survival with no life support challenge was unnecessary.

So overall, I can slightly sympathize with the OP in that I too would like some Nightwave challenges to be genuinely challenging, though I think there are many more people on board with this than the OP thinks: I think one of the largest criticisms isn't that Nightwave is too hard, but that it simply fails to add fun gameplay, instead mostly just giving us a list of chores to complete every week. Personally, I think the pool of Nightwave challenges is tiny and far too samey, particularly when it comes to all of the "Kill 150 enemies with X element" challenges: my wish would be to add a far greater diversity of challenges, and make those challenges more engaging, while reworking or removing the current challenges that fail to deliver any fun. Riven challenges I think set a good example in this respect, because most of them do in fact test the player on some skill, and are generally fun to complete while genuinely layering on some extra challenge to our normal gameplay, instead of just pushing us to do some repetitive busywork. With this in mind, I think there should be room to critically examine Nightwave's current challenges and propose to remove or rework those that don't deliver, while adding new ones that do, instead of just advocating to halt any further changes to a fairly new system, all in the name of some vapidly elitist attitude that really has no place in Warframe.

[DebrisFlow]

18 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

There are just certain people who do not want to actually do anything in your game.  At some point, please cut off the hyperbolic shrieks from your actionable feedback.

I have a newer player in my clan, and I'm helping another clan of new players.  None of them want everything in the game handed to them, none of them have had complaints about Nightwave.  Almost all the complaints I've seen are from self-described veterans who should have no issue completing this content.

Please, do not cater to a minority of people who refuse to play the game.

Yes, there are hyperbolic shrieks from certain people giving a very questionable feedback. I think that who's attacking the difficulty/exclusivity of some challenges is just impatient and not able to grasp the concept of game difficulty progression. 

Then there are other individuals that are just massive trolls, and i can't frame who complains about the 150 bullet jumps in another way.

Then there are other people, yes, self-described veterans, who are rightfully pointing out what i think is the 2^nd biggest flaw of the entire NW: that the (almost) totality of the challenges are low level content that: i) they already farmed out completely, sometimes to exaustion; ii) don't provide any kind of challenge/enjoyment. Yes, they can easily complete the tasks in 2-3h with no difficulty issue, but no, they are not enjoying those 2-3 hours, and this is a issue. They're NOT asking for things to be handed to them for free, like you mention. Being sick for being asked to repeat again and again and again low level content is a legitimate feedback. I won't discuss here with all those stubborn people repeating the mantra "but you only need 60% of the total standings" on why that's not a valid argument, they can find my point on that in the NW megathdread.

Your original post seems to mismatch these 3 types togheter and to attack all of them as one.

 

[GF-110]

I understand that there must have been hundreds of threads like this one in the past. But I'm new to posting on the forums and engaging with the wider Warframe community so please bear with me and my (possibly terrible) opinions.

First, thank you for acting on the feedback threads for Nightwave Season 1. I really appreciate the front-loading of Creds, catch up mechanics, and the removal of the weekly Gilding challenge. Second, at this point, I don't think Nightwaves can be "fixed". Opinions about the system vary by personal taste. Some love the challenges, others think they're tedious. Some love the guided play, some hate having a list of weekly chores. Some even want the old Alert system back. It ultimately comes back to the balance between Player Agency, Challenge, and Rewards. Based on recent threads, I believe the loudest of complaints comes from a problem with Player Agency.

All that said, my suggestion is to have a list of pickable options for the weekly challenges. This would allow players to tailor their experience to the sort of content that they feel like doing that week. This could even be an optional list with the trade off of rewarding less reputation compared to doing the static weekly challenges. If that is too far in the direction of Player Agency, perhaps being able to "re-roll" unfavoured challenges would be a smaller step in that direction (and possibly create hilarious amounts of salt when a more unfavourable challenge is rolled).

What are everyone's thoughts?

[MrInubis]

7 minutes ago, DebrisFlow said:

Then there are other people, yes, self-described veterans, who are rightfully pointing out what i think is the 2^nd biggest flaw of the entire NW: that the (almost) totality of the challenges are low level content that: i) they already farmed out completely, sometimes to exaustion; ii) don't provide any kind of challenge/enjoyment. Yes, they can easily complete the tasks in 2-3h with no difficulty issue, but no, they are not enjoying those 2-3 hours, and this is a issue.

But it not supposed to be challenging! Thats the whole problem here. Its content made for lower ranked players. Thats where the whole issue starts and ends. It never was meant to be content for veterans. The fact that you want those shiny cosmetics doesnt change that. Nothing will ever be challenging for you.

[-VS-Zany]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb kuciol:

But it not supposed to be challenging! Thats the whole problem here. Its content made for lower ranked players. Thats where the whole issue starts and ends. It never was meant to be content for veterans. The fact that you want those shiny cosmetics doesnt change that. Nothing will ever be challenging for you.

Dont fight this war.
My "veteran" friends are hypocritical in 99%. ( OH and actually 90% of Veterans are no veterans)

[DebrisFlow]

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

But the "problems" come mostly from the fact that some people are just bored of the game. Most complains are just stupid. Vets do not consider that its not content made for them. Everything from mission structure to rewards scream "mid tier content". Its a replacement for a system that they already have everything from and they are surprised that its mostly pointless to them, like come on. They forget that vast majority of players dont have everything and NW is aimed toward such players. Its boring and tedious for them the same way any other part of the game is (according to forums...).

8 minutes ago, kuciol said:

But it not supposed to be challenging! Thats the whole problem here. Its content made for lower ranked players. Thats where the whole issue starts and ends. It never was meant to be content for veterans. The fact that you want those shiny cosmetics doesnt change that. Nothing will ever be challenging for you.

Yes, NW is not a content made for veterans but for early- and mid-tiers, to give them an incentive to explore parts of the game that they may have not explored yet, and in this aspect it's good and working well. Biggest problem here, that you did not consider, is that DE put in there rewards that are high-tier/endgame like arcanes and umbra forma, making NW a must-participate for veterans too. To explain it with a metaphore, they put a master degree in engineering at the end of a primary school. But DE is happy because with this slothful and dishonest move they managed to artificially increase player participation at all levels without providing any new content. Now i will say something that will attract a lot of hate but, in my opinion, completely removing end-game rewards (umbra forma, exclusive cosmetics) from the NW to transform it into what it should be, a early-/mid-tier experience, would solve a lot of problems with veteran complaints.

Edited July 31, 2019 by DebrisFlow

[MrInubis]

Just now, DebrisFlow said:

Yes, NW is not a content made for veterans but for early- and mid-tiers, to give them an incentive to explore parts of the game that they may have not explored yet, and in this aspect it's good and working well. Biggest problem here, that you did not consider, is that DE put in there rewards that are high-tier/endgame like arcanes and umbra forma, making NW a must-participate for veterans too. To explain it with a metaphore, they put a master degree in engineering at the end of a primary school. But DE is happy because with this slothful and dishonest move they managed to artificially increase player participation at all levels without providing any new content. Now i will say something that will attract a lot of hate but, in my opinion, completely removing end-game rewards (umbra forma, exclusive cosmetics) from the NW to transform it into what it should be, a early-/mid-tier experience, would solve a lot of problems with veteran complaints.

The fact that you can use some of the rewards doesnt mean its meant specifically for you. Mr15 can make the same use out of it as you do, i have nothing against giving you alternative way of getting those things but changing something to cater to your needs is something im against. But it would have to be alternative and not additional because those things should remain scarce in my opinion.

[DebrisFlow]

2 minutes ago, kuciol said:

The fact that you can use some of the rewards doesnt mean its meant specifically for you. Mr15 can make the same use out of it as you do, i have nothing against giving you alternative way of getting those things but changing something to cater to your needs is something im against. But it would have to be alternative and not additional because those things should remain scarce in my opinion.

Totally agree but, guess what, two seasons and still no alternative

[MrInubis]

21 minutes ago, DebrisFlow said:

Totally agree but, guess what, two seasons and still no alternative

Because such things take time and a lot of it. Duviri is still like 2 years away for example. That and there wasnt any real suggestions made. All of them boiled down to minimazing the effort.

[ShortCat]

Do I understand it right? You imply there are no problems with Nightwave. I disagree with your "analysis". People will complain about anything, however, if you intend to start a serious discussion, you need to differentiate and you cannot generalize. Otherwise its just hyperbolic shrieks.

20 hours ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

There are just certain people who do not want to actually do anything in your game.  At some point, please cut off the hyperbolic shrieks from your actionable feedback. [...]Almost all the complaints I've seen are from self-described veterans who should have no issue completing this content. 

• It is not about easy access, it is about what NW acts ask you to do. Nightmare missions or invasions do not magically become more meaningfull with NW. A player will do any content regardless of NW, if he has a reason or ignore it after he completes an obligatory weekly. Nightwave does not change Quality of content.
• Player have their own ways to enjoy the game. However, a good portion of NW acts are intrusive and lead you back to content you deliberatly ignore to be able to enjoy the game in the first place. There are no practical issues to complete 5 different bounties, afterwards I just think about that "log out" button.
• Nightwave tries to include every aspect of the game: different mission types as well as activities. At the same time, no fundamental changes were done to said parts of the game. If [insert topic] sucks, it will suck tenfold, because NW strongarms players to do it. As a result, NW became a melting pot of every misstep and design failure in the game.

Those are the problems with Nightwave acts. As for solutions:

• Either improve content we have to do...
• or make NW acts content independant; daily acts can be completed everywhere, thus there are significantly less complains concerning them.

Edited July 31, 2019 by ShortCat

[DebrisFlow]

25 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Because such things take time and a lot of it. Duviri is still like 2 years away for example. That and there wasnt any real suggestions made. All of them boiled down to minimazing the effort.

Allow me to say that this is wrong, the NW feedback megathread may be filled with a lot of non-sense, but also real and constructive proposals were made. Just to make some examples:

- the catch-up mechanic was proposed (and indeed implemented, still in the wrong way, but implemented) : this is not about minimizing the effort but about making it more elastic;

- the idea of increasing the number of challenges per week, same amount of max obtainable weekly standing, just allowing us to decide what we prefer to do without losing standings (i.e. 20 challenges, you need 10 to max weekly standings): still not about minimizing effort but about making the requirements more elastic;

- the previous point, coupled with the idea of tasks that are actually real challenges, think-out-of-you-way challenges and not just "do that mission X times": More in the line with riven challenges. Many, many ideas for interesting and fun-because-different-from-ordinary-playing can be found. Again, not about less effort, actually about more of it.

Regarding the fact that changes require time, of course i agree. But if DE didn't rush NW S1 to the sorry state it was at release, and more thoroughly evaluated their player base habits, soo many of these problems and complaints could have been avoided. I mean, game is 6 years old, how couldn't they learn....

 

[Steel_Rook]

Nightwave is flawed at inception, for one simple reason - it's Warframe's version of the Battle Pass, i.e. the latest F2P monetisation gimmick now that loot boxes and real-money gambling have a bad rap. It has no intrinsic reason to exist in Warframe other than Fortnite is popular, Fortnite has a Battle Pass, so let's stick one into Warframe. That doesn't mean the system CAN'T work, but it does mean that it's going to have constant teething issues until it's been modified, adapted and changed to the point of unrecognisability so as to actually fit with Warframe's core gameplay loop.

I'm with Teridax on this one - the conversation surrounding Nightwave has been very reductive since it came out, and all too often co-opted to push an extant agenda - in the case of this OP, the "kids these days are so spoiled" kind. Unfortunately, this has the effect of papering over legitimate concerns with the system and leave them unaddressed, especially when the thread is phrased as "Don't listen to other people!" The core issues are rather a lot more complex, I'd argue. In fact, let me pull up a quote so I have something to work off of:

5 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

• "This challenge requires no actual gameplay and is essentially just a chore"
• "This challenge has no inherent gameplay and merely forces me to expend resources"
• "This challenge is too difficult/I don't like the gameplay tied to this challenge, so remove it"

That's a decent breakdown right there. There are plenty of potential reasons why people would dislike a challenge before we get to the "entitled/spoiled" slag. I myself have been extremely critical of "inventory challenges," which simply ask you to - as stated - have a resource on hand and expend it. Socketing Ayatan Sculptures, using Forma, Guilding items... None of these challenges actually require you to do anything. They're similar to the Base of Operations daily in The Division - donate 40 of each crafting resource. That's not a challenge, it's not a mission, it's a resource sink. If you want to have resource sinks then by all means, but keep them out of Nightwave.

Additionally, I'd argue that criticising a challenge because a player personally doesn't like it is valid criticism. One of Nightwave's fundamental issues is the lack of choice. You get a set of activities per week and that's it. Don't like 'em? Tough, you can't choose different ones. This is where the "60% of challenges!!!" mantra starts being chanted, but it ignores fundamental player psychology. If you're given the potential of 43K Standing in a week, but you "chose" to only earn 20K of it, that's choice in the literal sense bit it feels like settling for the boobie prize in term of emotional impact. You're leaving money on the table, essentially. This is why I've pushed for doubling the number of challenges but implementing a Weekly Standing Cap similar to the Daily Standing Caps for other Syndicates. This way, a player could avoid the challenges they don't like and STILL gain maximum benefit out of the system, while players who enjoy the challenges can do them all anyway.

There's this undercurrent in the "backlash to the backlash" that I strongly dislike, which is that players should get out of their comfort zone and stop complaining. To this I say "No, thank you." Nightwave's initial design tried to push everyone into doing all the things, so it ended up pushing everyone into doing things they don't like. If a player doesn't want to run Interception, don't force them. If a player doesn't want to run 60 minutes of Survival, don't force them. Give players choice and players will regulate their own gameplay in order to find their own fun. As the developer in charge, DE do need to do some amount of directing player activity. At the end of the day, however, I know what I enjoy more than they do. Using psychologically manipulative systems (which is what the Battle Pass is) in order to push me into activities I straight-up don't like is not a winning proposition.

Warframe in general needs more freedom and less in the way of content bottlenecks. I've cover this many times before, but this game has FAR too much content for us to be forced to grind the same one mission type or the same one location over and over again. The same applies to Nightwave. Give me more challenges from a broader range of activities and locations, let me pick which ones I want to do. I'm not going to mess with Silver Grove spectres or the game's worst game mode (aka Sanctuary Onslaught). Penalising me for not doing it isn't going to improve my experience. Giving me a choice to do what I already liked doing, but more of it is what would get me to stick around and do more stuff.

Ultimately, Nightwave is a work in progress. Season 2 is substantially better than Season 1 if just for the catch-up mechanic, but it needs more work. The farther we move away from the Battle Pass, the better Nightwave is going to work. The farther we move away from weaponising FOMO and attempting to condition players to keep logging back or "feel bad," the more satisfying it's going to be. Slagging players for not liking it just slows that process down.

[Teridax68]

6 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Additionally, I'd argue that criticising a challenge because a player personally doesn't like it is valid criticism. One of Nightwave's fundamental issues is the lack of choice. You get a set of activities per week and that's it. Don't like 'em? Tough, you can't choose different ones. This is where the "60% of challenges!!!" mantra starts being chanted, but it ignores fundamental player psychology. If you're given the potential of 43K Standing in a week, but you "chose" to only earn 20K of it, that's choice in the literal sense bit it feels like settling for the boobie prize in term of emotional impact. You're leaving money on the table, essentially. This is why I've pushed for doubling the number of challenges but implementing a Weekly Standing Cap similar to the Daily Standing Caps for other Syndicates. This way, a player could avoid the challenges they don't like and STILL gain maximum benefit out of the system, while players who enjoy the challenges can do them all anyway.

This I think is fair reasoning, and I agree that the current static set of challenges and overall lack of choices is something to improve upon. Quite a few players also suggested the option to reroll challenges, which I think could work quite nicely -- ultimately, the specifics of the challenges we are given shouldn't matter as much as the overall level of challenge they demand. If every challenge of the same "tier" is equally challenging, then it shouldn't really matter if we personally dislike a certain challenge, as changing it to another of the same tier should be able to give the same amount of challenge for more fun.

Overall, there's a ton more potential to develop Nightwave, and I agree that currently it's an okay-ish free Season Pass when it really could do so much more to give us more things to do in-game, which seems like its objective. I don't really see the point in time-gating everything, for example, when a) that was one of the major reasons why Alerts were removed, and b) letting us complete challenges on our own time, instead of just yoinking the ones we don't complete, would give us more stuff to do overall for those who don't always have the exact same amount of free time every week. Similarly, I see no point to changing the items in the in-game shop every week when our purchasing ability is limited by credits that we can only obtain at fixed intervals for most of the episode. There is so much to Nightwave right now that is just needlessly stressful and could easily be improved to everyone's benefit, which is why it irritates me all the more when such discussion is blockaded by this forum's particular brand of "kids these days".

[MrInubis]

5 hours ago, DebrisFlow said:

Allow me to say that this is wrong, the NW feedback megathread may be filled with a lot of non-sense, but also real and constructive proposals were made. 

Not really. All of them try to minimize the effort. Giving players a choice will just lead to them picking the path of least resistance. There is no way in hell that it would end up differently. On top of that those are not alternatives but changes. There could be some improvements made but post above show clearly that poeple want to make it something that it was never meant to be. Giving reroll tokens for tasks you really dont want? Sure. Longer time to complete? No problem. Just dont try to change what it really is, a minor mid tier content.

Edited July 31, 2019 by kuciol

[Test-995]

49 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Not really. All of them try to minimize the effort. Giving players a choice will just lead to them picking the path of least resistance. 

If challenges are so broken and really unbalanced as you say, they should give different standings because they have different "resistance".

[MrInubis]

2 hours ago, Test-995 said:

If challenges are so broken and really unbalanced as you say, they should give different standings because they have different "resistance".

They dont have to because you dont have a choice. You can skip some and thats it.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

6 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

I don't really see the point in time-gating everything, for example, when a) that was one of the major reasons why Alerts were removed, and b) letting us complete challenges on our own time, instead of just yoinking the ones we don't complete, would give us more stuff to do overall for those who don't always have the exact same amount of free time every week.

Evidently DE agreed, you can now complete challenges later on once you complete your current week.  You could complete the season on the last week of the season, and never log in prior to that.  Additionally, you can skip a couple of the recovered challenges and still keep going.

I can provide a link to a good video made by Brozime that breaks down this mechanic if necessary.

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, (PS4)BenHeisennberg said:

Evidently DE agreed, you can now complete challenges later on once you complete your current week.  You could complete the season on the last week of the season, and never log in prior to that.  Additionally, you can skip a couple of the recovered challenges and still keep going.

I can provide a link to a good video made by Brozime that breaks down this mechanic if necessary.

It's still a half-measure, though, when the entire episode could just not be time-gated at all. For sure, you can get rank 30 without completing all the challenges, but it's still not great to get stuck with unwanted challenges, and the current requirements to be able to go through older requirements require an exceptional amount of time commitment in themselves, and are based on completing those challenges within a time limit as well.

[Steel_Rook]

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

This I think is fair reasoning, and I agree that the current static set of challenges and overall lack of choices is something to improve upon. Quite a few players also suggested the option to reroll challenges, which I think could work quite nicely -- ultimately, the specifics of the challenges we are given shouldn't matter as much as the overall level of challenge they demand. If every challenge of the same "tier" is equally challenging, then it shouldn't really matter if we personally dislike a certain challenge, as changing it to another of the same tier should be able to give the same amount of challenge for more fun.

Agreed. I'm fine with putting some amount of work into Warframe, but I just don't like some of the challenges. Ideally, all challenges within a Tier (Daily / Weekly / Elite Weekly) should be roughly as difficult to accomplish as each other, so why not let me stick to just the ones I actually enjoy. For instance, I wouldn't touch Sanctuary Onslaught with a 10-foot pole, but I'm not opposed to running a few Sorties. I hate the Silver Grove Spectres with a passion, but I wouldn't be opposed to staying 30-40 minutes in a Survival mission (now that it's down from 60 "with friends"). The more choice you give me, the more motivated I am to actually pursue these challenges and stick around playing the game.

I'm also one of the people pushing for a "reroll" feature, as well. Let's ignore redesigning the system and stick with what we have now - 7 Dailies, 5 Weeklies, 2 Elite Weeklies. Let me reroll one Weekly every day and one Elite Weekly every two days, with the option to retain the existing roll if I'm not happy with the new one. That's not a lot to ask for, I don't think - it's a total of 7 Weekly and 3 Elite Weekly rerolls, if I happen to hate literally all of that week's challenges and have bad luck on new rolls. And realistically, whom does this hurt? I'm still participating in the system, it's just I'm doing it through tasks I actually enjoy.

 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

It's still a half-measure, though, when the entire episode could just not be time-gated at all. For sure, you can get rank 30 without completing all the challenges, but it's still not great to get stuck with unwanted challenges, and the current requirements to be able to go through older requirements require an exceptional amount of time commitment in themselves, and are based on completing those challenges within a time limit as well.

True, but this is still baby steps. Ideally I'd like to get rid of the time-gating entirely and go the "World of Tanks Campaigns" route where all the campaigns are available all of the time and you switch between them. Nightwave Season 2 isn't that... But it's a major step in that direction. It tells me that DE are willing to learn, willing to adapt and above all willing to listen. To be perfectly honest, I personally felt a LOT better about it once the new catch-up mechanic was explained to me. I don't know what Season 3 holds, but these changes make me hopeful. I'm willing to give DE the benefit of a doubt (once) that they really did thing Nightwave was going to be a fun experience to pump us up for the game and didn't realise how oppressive it would eventually turn out being. As such, I'm willing to hold my criticism and see where we go from here.

We're not there yet, but I think we're on the right track.

[Tsardova]

Seeing a lot of people say "work for it" as an excuse to a lot of the glaring flaws in NW that needs addressing....

 

Meanwhile the whole point people play WF/games in general is a means of escapism from RL chores/ stress from work..... Emulating said sensation of "work" with a deadline in a means of escapism is never a good thing. One can argue putting EFFORT into something wouldn't be too dissimilar but the balance between effort put to worthwhile end reward needs to be there, and sadly the rewards here have yet to incentivize those who've seen and done the listed tasks one too many times prior.

 

The cumulative time/ effort/ resource sacrificed on repeating a task that's been done far too many times to count prior completely overshadows the end reward as is for some people. And as one who made over 7 kitguns; having to farm the materials, refine them, farm standing(s) if I by chance lack a bit of them ergo more time, create said parts, level them to 30 before gilding it? That's one too many steps I have to get over for the 8th time last week just to get one check mark off. And no, saying "you don't have to clear everything" doesn't justify the triple layered design behind this chore either.... I've missed a few level of last series of NW rewards because I thought I can get by with just enough tasks done only to get slapped by rl obligations and find myself short from the last few NW rewards just as it concluded.

 

Taking a newbie's perspective as they may have not done these task isn't helping the point either as there will come a point that these newbies having done these tasks prior and there's no guarantee that these tasks won't be cycled back in future NW "challenges". And by that point, even said newbies would likely find these tasks repetitive all the same with cumulative sacrifice of their time, resource, and effort being far more than what's to be gained.

 

All NW has done so far is that it reeks of padding for railjack, a timegate where instead of people taking things on their own tempo, they're pretty much "forced" to keep playing the game to an extent to get the rewards. Granted there is enough leeway for missing a few weeks worth of it still to get the "final" reward for the most part, fact of the matter is it feels like a chore since it incites the sense that you're on a timer to get it done instead of taking things at your own tempo on top of the rewards being rather lack luster compared to a handful of tasks requiring substantial amount of re-investment.

 

Much as I wanted to get the dang Wolf armor in NW1, Last few months was when I was busiest and I completely missed out on Wolf stuff without a choice even after considering I was "fine" with the chores in series 1 NW. So no, to say people need to "work for it" on top of the quite a handful of tasks being chores at best and it being timed only highlights how much improvement needs to be considered and implemented for NW.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

3 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:

I'm willing to give DE the benefit of a doubt (once) that they really did thing Nightwave was going to be a fun experience to pump us up for the game and didn't realise how oppressive it would eventually turn out being.

Do people honestly believe DE started googling ways to abuse mental issues, stumbled upon "FOMO," and proceeded to aim to take advantage of players who are susceptible to it?

People really have low opinions of this company.

Anyways, I'm in favor of rerolls in the form of "select a tougher challenge."  In the example I gave before, I do not like doing the Silver Grove.  In the event you do not want to do this challenge and you're worried about your availability to earn 60% of the season's standing, you choose between the Hydrolyst, an hour in Mot, or 10 rounds of Mithra, for example. 

The challenges are very easy, rerolling should be an opportunity to replace it with something a little bit higher on the curve that you actually want to do.  Otherwise, people will reroll just to get the most brain dead speedrun-able option, just like the rest of Warframe.

(Edit for clarification:  I do not consider Silver Grove a bad challenge, just one I personally don't care for.  Not arguing for its removal.)

Edited August 1, 2019 by (PS4)BenHeisennberg

[DebrisFlow]

21 hours ago, kuciol said:

The fact that you can use some of the rewards doesnt mean its meant specifically for you. Mr15 can make the same use out of it as you do, i have nothing against giving you alternative way of getting those things but changing something to cater to your needs is something im against. But it would have to be alternative and not additional because those things should remain scarce in my opinion.

14 hours ago, kuciol said:

Not really. All of them try to minimize the effort. Giving players a choice will just lead to them picking the path of least resistance. There is no way in hell that it would end up differently. On top of that those are not alternatives but changes. There could be some improvements made but post above show clearly that poeple want to make it something that it was never meant to be. Giving reroll tokens for tasks you really dont want? Sure. Longer time to complete? No problem. Just dont try to change what it really is, a minor mid tier content.

So, first you say that you're ok for alternatives then when you're presented with things that ARE alternatives (in the way i wrote them, they are presented as both changes and alternatives, not changes only, so please read it again and better: a change affects both our ways of playing, an alternative leaves intact your way and gives me another. The first may be a win-loss if you don't like the changes, the second is a win-win).

Are you just contradicting me for the pure sake of contradiction? Because you arguments are non-sense: picking the path of least resistance is a universal law for everything, that would make the availability of alternatives completely useless, so if you're ok for alternatives, as you stated, can you at least explain how you imagine those at least, withuot violating the minimum effort principle? No to alternative choice missions but yes to reroll tokens? Different names for the same thing, can you explain me how the results would be different in the matter of not minimizing the effort? Is picking the path of least resistance a bad thing for you, considering that this is a game and should be considered for enjoyment? What if the path of highest resistance is not the longest/more difficult buy the most tedious?

And finally, if DE imagined NW as a minor-tier content why in the hell do you think it's the only source for cleary end-game rewards? DE wants the entire player base to play that, not minor-/mid-tiers only, and it's totally rightfull and legitimate for us to ask for gameplay alternatives that are more than minor-/mid- tier.

 

[MrInubis]

17 minutes ago, DebrisFlow said:

So, first you say that you're ok for alternatives then when you're presented with things that ARE alternatives (in the way i wrote them, they are presented as both changes and alternatives, not changes only, so please read it again and better: a change affects both our ways of playing, an alternative leaves intact your way and gives me another. The first may be a win-loss if you don't like the changes, the second is a win-win).

Im ok with alternatives , meaning whole new system that will lead to same rewards, not giving players a choice so they can do whatever they want or feel like doing. You presented exactly that, a way to pick the most lazy way of doing things. I may be old school but i believe effort should be rewarded, not greed and laziness. As an alternatives for example i mean put them in reward pool for ESO at 10+ wave or something like that. Cosmetics could be sold by Baro for some ludicrous amount or something. Those would be alternative ways of getting things, not changes to NW that fit your style. As i said you cant give players a freedom of choice because we are lazy by nature and almost everyone will just pick the easiest, fastest way of doing it. Giving you other ways of getting the rewards from NW is what i mean by alternatives.

Edited August 1, 2019 by kuciol

[DebrisFlow]

18 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Im ok with alternatives , meaning whole new system that will lead to same rewards, not giving players a choice so they can do whatever they want or feel like doing

36 minutes ago, kuciol said:

As i said you cant give players a freedom of choice because we are lazy by nature and almost everyone will just pick the easiest, fastest way of doing it. Giving you other ways of getting the rewards from NW is what i mean by alternatives.

Biggest contradiction ever. Please think a little bit more about that and respond when you have clear ideas. You're ok with alternatives (reads, literally, another choice) .....and...not giving players a choice so they can do whatever they want or feel like doing. ?!?

 

20 minutes ago, kuciol said:

You presented exactly that, a way to pick the most lazy way of doing things.

31 minutes ago, kuciol said:

I may be old school but i believe effort should be rewarded, not greed and laziness

You responded so fast, of course you didn't even read my points, that are, actually, in favor of more difficult challenges, as a choice, and would match your idea of tougher tasks:

21 hours ago, DebrisFlow said:

- the previous point, coupled with the idea of tasks that are actually real challenges, think-out-of-you-way challenges and not just "do that mission X times": More in the line with riven challenges. Many, many ideas for interesting and fun-because-different-from-ordinary-playing can be found. Again, not about less effort, actually about more of it.

39 minutes ago, DebrisFlow said:

What if the path of highest resistance is not the longest/more difficult buy the most tedious?

 

29 minutes ago, kuciol said:

As an alternatives for example i mean put them in reward pool for ESO at 10+ wave or something like that. Cosmetics could be sold by Baro for some ludicrous amount or something.

Please, tell me how these examples could not be the most lazy way of doing things. And how could they solve the problem that i continue to state and you continue to ignore: trivial, boring gameplay.

 

36 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Those would be alternative ways of getting things, not changes to NW that fit your style.

Again, you didn't read my lines that explain that the alternatives that i propose are not fitting NW to my style but offering a choice to add our styles togheter. Alternative != change, read again my definition and reevaluate.

59 minutes ago, DebrisFlow said:

in the way i wrote them, they are presented as both changes and alternatives, not changes only, so please read it again and better: a change affects both our ways of playing, an alternative leaves intact your way and gives me another. The first may be a win-loss if you don't like the changes, the second is a win-win).