Revenant's Enthrall ability tweak to make it more "useful" and less tedious to use.

[Kasiosh_T_Laios]

Revenant, in my opinion, is a very underrated frame and I think that his kit is ok.

The only problem with him is that his first ability can be a little too tedious to keep up and running, because the thralls keep dying before spreading.

I came up with this idea: instead of mind controlling the enemies when marked, they deal 20% less damage to Revenant's allies (damage debuff is uneffected by mods)

upon death, the marked enemies will turn into duration based ghosts (similar to the Ballistica Prime but with a longer duration) MAX 7, these thrall ghosts will have the job of spreading the mark.

This does not go against the lore, as Eidolon Vomvalysts do a similar thing when killed in the plains.

Upon the death of a marked enemy, they will turn into a ghost if the number of thralls falls under 7, otherwise they will function as they do now (creating a pyramid of energy.)

upon the end of the duration of a ghost thrall, they will create a pyramid as well.

The number of marked enemies is capped to 14 to prevent  the ground from becoming lava.

 

This change would make his thralls easier to spread, and gives the ability a further support role.

I don't think that this change would be overpowered, it will only make it less tedious to use as well as more usefull when used. (the cap on marked enemies as well as the unscalable debuff balance it well in my openion).

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Better suggestion.

REMOVE IT ENTIRELY

Edited July 31, 2019 by (XB1)GearsMatrix301

[Kasiosh_T_Laios]

Just now, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Better suggestion.

REMOVE IT ENTIRELY

Why tho? this change gives it crowed controll, support and keeps its damage and synergy with his other abilities, all while making it very easy to use.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Just now, Kasiosh_T_Laios said:

Why tho? this change gives it crowed controll, support and keeps its damage and synergy with his other abilities, all while making it very easy to use.

It’s a terrible ability and it’s synergies are forced. It actively holds Revenant back from being a better frame. Also it’s a vampire ability on and EIDOLON FRAME! GET RID OF IT!

[Limbo_Darkness]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

It’s a terrible ability and it’s synergies are forced. It actively holds Revenant back from being a better frame. Also it’s a vampire ability on and EIDOLON FRAME! GET RID OF IT!

Well not only was Revenant going to be an Eidolon Vampire frame, Sentients are known to have somewhat vampiric qualities, so it's perfectly fine. The synergies are cool, and while the ability definitely needs some buffs, it's not all too bad. One ability doesn't make a bad frame. 

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

personally like his kit , very hard to die if you build it right

enthrall is useful, problem is allies killing your thralls imo , and fact you have to stop and aim cast

currently, if his 2 is up it reduces cost right? But instead it would be faster if it just auto applied enthrall , speeding up the process and make it overall a decent system to keep up thrall populace imo

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Limbo_Darkness said:

Well not only was Revenant going to be an Eidolon Vampire frame, Sentients are known to have somewhat vampiric qualities, so it's perfectly fine. The synergies are cool, and while the ability definitely needs some buffs, it's not all too bad. One ability doesn't make a bad frame. 

How? At no point have I seen a sentient turn into a bat, drain someone’s blood, turn into mist. They aren’t vampires. And Eidolons specifically stray even further from that being giant behemoths with lasers.

Also you’re right. 1 bad ability doesn’t make a bad frame. 3 bad abilities on the other hand. Enthrall, Mesmer Skin, And Reave are some of the worst abilities in the game. Tho that can only be expected when they were designed by someone who knows nothing about game design. And the fact that you’ll just defend the because “100% damage reduction” and “infinite scaling damage” in a game that doesn’t demand either of those is just pathetic. Are you going to defend any ability as long as DE throws a poorly implemented 1-shot mechanic on it?

[Kasiosh_T_Laios]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

How? At no point have I seen a sentient turn into a bat, drain someone’s blood, turn into mist. They aren’t vampires. And Eidolons specifically stray even further from that being giant behemoths with lasers.

Also you’re right. 1 bad ability doesn’t make a bad frame. 3 bad abilities on the other hand. Enthrall, Mesmer Skin, And Reave are some of the worst abilities in the game. Tho that can only be expected when they were designed by someone who knows nothing about game design. And the fact that you’ll just defend the because “100% damage reduction” and “infinite scaling damage” in a game that doesn’t demand either of those is just pathetic. Are you going to defend any ability as long as DE throws a poorly implemented 1-shot mechanic on it?

Oof, I can taste some salt, chill a little.

Now why is Mesmer skin bad?

and why do you think that reave is bad?

Elaborate please

[MrMrs]

1 hour ago, Kasiosh_T_Laios said:

Oof, I can taste some salt, chill a little.

Now why is Mesmer skin bad?

and why do you think that reave is bad?

Elaborate please

Mesmer skin uses a charge based system that depletes upon taking any damage. Meaning that it's gonna deplete easily in any crowd and hard to manage. 

Reave is lazily designed and dragged down by the poorly designed 1 and does a worse job at making thralls cheap than mesmer skin. Along with that it's synergizes with it's 2 making it even worse considering how bad of a tool his 2 is

 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, Kasiosh_T_Laios said:

Oof, I can taste some salt, chill a little.

Now why is Mesmer skin bad?

and why do you think that reave is bad?

Elaborate please

Salty is an understatement. The hatred I have towards Revenant is strong and volatile enough to be considered a WMD.

Mesmer Skin: 100% damage reduction is redundant. There is no point in the game where it is mandatory to survive a bajillionx2 Damage. Not to mention it completely prevents certain arcanes from working on the frame. Which brings us to the fact that Mesmer Skin is based on number of charges in a game where you’re dealing with hordes of enemies. Yeah those charges drop fast and the abilities slow cast speed and no way to hold back the enemies to safely recast the ability makes it one of the worst tank abilities in the game. Also it prevents Danse Macabre from taking advantage if it’s scaling damage mechanic.

Reave: what does Reave do? Gives you back Health and Shields from enemies passed over. What is Revenants main form a defense? Not his Health and Shields. As terrible as Mesmer Skin is its still Revenants primary defense. So why do I have to create a thrall and then Reave over said thrall to be able to regain just 1 charge? That in all likeliness is going to get shot away the second you leave Reave. And all of Reaves significant uses like the high % health drain on enemies is tied to Enthrall, which if you’re playing in a squad, spend 99% of the time being swirly Damage pillars. But again, you don’t need to go to levels where dealing high % damage is necessary. It was described as an “escape ability” in his first reveal. But it’s not a very good escape ability when it too has a slow cast animation.

[nslay]

12 minutes ago, MrMrs said:

Mesmer skin uses a charge based system that depletes upon taking any damage. Meaning that it's gonna deplete easily in any crowd and hard to manage. 

Reave is lazily designed and dragged down by the poorly designed 1 and does a worse job at making thralls cheap than mesmer skin. Along with that it's synergizes with it's 2 making it even worse considering how bad of a tool his 2 is

 

Yeah, actually play Revenant before commenting about Revenant. We already have enough wiki warriors claiming problems with Mesmer Skin based on first impressions of ability text.

[nslay]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Salty is an understatement. The hatred I have towards Revenant is strong and volatile enough to be considered a WMD.

So much so that you often make things up. But every now and then you do genuinely point out legitimate problems with Revenant.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

4 minutes ago, nslay said:

Yeah, actually play Revenant before commenting about Revenant. We already have enough wiki warriors claiming problems with Mesmer Skin based on first impressions of ability text.

You forget that Mesmer Skin looked to be a decent ability before we got ahold of it. It wasn’t until after we got ahold of it that people started hating it because of how it’s not a good mechanic for a tank ability in a game involving a lot of enemies.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

4 hours ago, Kasiosh_T_Laios said:

Revenant, in my opinion, is a very underrated frame and I think that his kit is ok.

The only problem with him is that his first ability can be a little too tedious to keep up and running, because the thralls keep dying before spreading.

I came up with this idea: instead of mind controlling the enemies when marked, they deal 20% less damage to Revenant's allies (damage debuff is uneffected by mods)

upon death, the marked enemies will turn into duration based ghosts (similar to the Ballistica Prime but with a longer duration) MAX 7, these thrall ghosts will have the job of spreading the mark.

This does not go against the lore, as Eidolon Vomvalysts do a similar thing when killed in the plains.

Upon the death of a marked enemy, they will turn into a ghost if the number of thralls falls under 7, otherwise they will function as they do now (creating a pyramid of energy.)

upon the end of the duration of a ghost thrall, they will create a pyramid as well.

The number of marked enemies is capped to 14 to prevent  the ground from becoming lava.

 

This change would make his thralls easier to spread, and gives the ability a further support role.

I don't think that this change would be overpowered, it will only make it less tedious to use as well as more usefull when used. (the cap on marked enemies as well as the unscalable debuff balance it well in my openion).

While this is a good idea when it comes to improving the thralls, they still are thralls and thralls are problematic. Much like Nyx kit, enemies shooting each other doesnt do much due to their low damage and insane ehp. Your change doesnt fix this.

 

His 1 also doesnt fix his kit 

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

4 hours ago, Kasiosh_T_Laios said:

Why tho? this change gives it crowed controll, support and keeps its damage and synergy with his other abilities, all while making it very easy to use.

The crowd control is unreliable due to enemy ai threat tracking. Its support of 20% enemy damage reduction is quite literally useless. Even puncture procs reduce enemy damage by 30%. And all synergy that includes Rev’s 1 is anti-synergistic or very forced synergies. 

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

4 hours ago, Limbo_Darkness said:

Well not only was Revenant going to be an Eidolon Vampire frame, Sentients are known to have somewhat vampiric qualities, so it's perfectly fine. The synergies are cool, and while the ability definitely needs some buffs, it's not all too bad. One ability doesn't make a bad frame. 

When have Ediolons or sentients in general had anything close to vampiric qualities? 

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

4 hours ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

personally like his kit , very hard to die if you build it right

enthrall is useful, problem is allies killing your thralls imo , and fact you have to stop and aim cast

currently, if his 2 is up it reduces cost right? But instead it would be faster if it just auto applied enthrall , speeding up the process and make it overall a decent system to keep up thrall populace imo

While Revs 2 is up, if he gets shot the enemy is stunned. A stunned enemy can be enthralled for no energy cost. Thats what you meant right?

[nslay]

1 minute ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You forget that Mesmer Skin looked to be a decent ability before we got ahold of it. It wasn’t until after we got ahold of it that people started hating it because of how it’s not a good mechanic for a tank ability in a game involving a lot of enemies.

Mesmer Skin works extraordinary well. I assure you that whatever problems you have with it are a learn-to-play issue (not trying to offend you). You can use it against almost any enemy, no matter their numbers. The very rare exceptions being any status-immune enemy with 100% accuracy with high fire rate, namely: Profit Taker/Exploiter cannon, armed Grineer drop ships. You are god mode anywhere else.

[IceColdHawk]

Revenant's 1 needs waaaay more base range. Why do we have to go into melee range in order to enthrall an enemy? I have the option to click 1 on an enemy and see him enthralled or i could just simply smack him away. Would be more useful if i could "shutdown" an area by enthralling an enemy far away which in return takes not only all aggro on him but also turns others into thralls as well.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

1 minute ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

While Revs 2 is up, if he gets shot the enemy is stunned. A stunned enemy can be enthralled for no energy cost. Thats what you meant right?

yes, just saying it could be just instantly thralled , given

if thralls is < # pool , then enthrall

if thralls =# pool 

then stun

it could be factored like that 

[nslay]

In terms of Revenant's abilities, I think his 3 is the most awkward and hardest to learn/remember to use. With it's target health percentage-based damage, it is by far his most powerful ability. The problem is that it's use is usually not warranted for content most players play. And it scales in a terrible way in that it is less powerful than fixed-damaged abilities at lower levels while being extremely potent at high levels. You need to play several hours in endless missions before you start to really need to use his 3. All the synergies really shine when 1 + 3 becomes your main source of damage. Notably his 1 becomes more useful in team play when players can't kill the Thralls so easily! But most players aren't playing 3 hour survivals. His 4 will be useless in these long missions.

For most content, Revenant players will probably only use his 1, 2 and 4. At these low levels, his synergies are hardly noticeable or necessary! His CC abilities are also unnecessary even in solo play.

I think he's an overall fun frame with only a fraction of his potential and mechanics revealed to most players in most content. I do main him! I am biased!

I think there are a lot of unnecessary details/effects with his abilities (e.g. Overshield pickups make no sense). And his shield depletion passive is completely not useful.

[nslay]

The underlying problem is that CC is not very useful right now. But I think one way to help both Revenant's Enthrall and Nyx's Mind Control be more useful (or at least noticeable!) is to grant them the same kind of shielding/mitigation as Simaris Synthesis Targets while still being susceptible to Reave. Those Synthesis Targets can really take a beating and a player who can't one-shot a Thrall might notice that it's a Thrall and not kill it... However, this is also not that great because you don't get those pillars as easily (which do quite a bit of damage, at least on the order of his 4). I mean, you can still kill Synthesis Targets and therefore similarly damage mitigated Thralls, you just have to shoot more than once!

Also, Enthrall is kind of nice to use on annoying enemies like Noxs. You Enthrall the Nox and you/everyone kills it... But if it's got Synthesis Target damage mitigation, it will be harder to kill the Enthralled Nox! Same with bosses! Though bosses have significantly reduced duration with diminishing returns with repeated applications of Enthrall... So Enthrall is not as useful for bosses except for quickly using Reave.

I guess it's a trade off. You can give Thralls the same mitigation as Synthesis Targets but leave them susceptible to Reave. You make 1 more noticeable at low levels and artificially force 3 to be needed to kill the Thralls ... at least much sooner than 3 hour survivals. But if DE does this, *please* fix/change Nox's immunity to Reave.

[JohnLemon123]

while i'd be in favor of the ability being scrapped and replaced by something wholly different, this is what i'd personally change about it if it were to stay :

• thralls return energy to revenant upon death, at a rate of 50% of the cost of a cast.
• all thralls leave a pillar upon death, regardless of how their enthralling came about.
• the casting itself is much faster than previously.
• change its weird damage types to adaptive, to help it scale better, and because it just makes sense.
• replace the overshield pickup with one that restores a mesmer charge instead (two if you used the boosted variant to kill them). allies can no longer pick them up.
• the pillars can only be destroyed by the boosted variant of danse. the explosion's damage type is adaptive, and the damage of the explosion is based on damage times duration. (if the damage is 2500, and the duration 20 seconds, the explosion will deal 50k damage). the radius would be twice that of the pillar, or 4 meters at base.

[Ph4nt0m_ru]

Revenant is more than a decent frame. His 1 with pillars energy give control, allow more effectively destroy enemies XXX+ level. 2 gives excellent protection (if correctly to approach it). 3 Skil gives excellent mobility when you use 4 skill at low/medium levels (1+3 skills don't use - takes a long time). 4 ability to good as there is. If you are not satisfied with 2 skill - use in the build mod Rolling Guard and a minimum of 20 charges Mesmer Skin, then it is realistic to end the mission to have 0% of the damage received, regardless of the level of the enemy.

[Kasiosh_T_Laios]

16 minutes ago, (XB1)GaussPrime said:

Sorry but the only way to save this ability is to scrap the duration and turn it into a toggle, the upkeep would be way better and easier, since they enthrall from multiple sources.. (cast, dmg and .. the.. the energy cones) ..

Building revenant for only duration wastes too much slots.. and on the way there increase the base duration of his 3rd ability to standards like hydroid or zephyr..

Keeping up the kill rate will help eliminate the duration problem tho.

currently with my build, that uses TF and PC, has around 20 sec of duration, meaning that if you are capped, killing a unit under 20 seconds will keep your thrall ghosts up all the time.