Melee 3.0 dreams & expectations

[Scar.brother.help.me]

Hey, there, lone Tenno operatives and Digital Extremes.

1 year+ Tenno waiting for the melee rework since the first week of playing and here is a list of things I and a few of my friends and other Tenno I've met discussed during this year about melee:

 

1. Movement during combo, when you can't control precisely where you move and find yourself swinging  the sword while enemy is already behind you.

2. Charged attacks: first of all - why the hell normal hit and then charge? Can it be just quick tap or hold to charge (just like a bow, what's the problem?), And the second one - it should be something strong and awesome (i.e. like an arrow ragdolling a target and send it fly and hit whoever is on it's way).

3. Channeling - it could be still useful if it drained shields or hp instead, kind of sacrifice for damage boost (I'd say any regular bows, thrown secondaries, aka cold weapons - should share this).

4. Combo counter vs multishot and high crit chance:

Ranged weapons have their max potential from the first (second if bladed rounds/argon scope etc) shot

While melee can't reach it until combo counter reaches some number of hits.

Melee has too many mods to build for crit or status while ranged can fit a hybrid build in 8 slots.

5. Slam attacks - they have to be affected by reach mods. And why not proc heavy impact/rhino passive?

More effects and interesting mods for slam attacks (+status chance, +effect proc on slam attack, etc), they are cool.

6. Combo swinging while in the air (I know this is said to be in melee 3.0, just to say it is good)

7. Unified combos as followed:

E,E,E,E,E... - fast wide combo to many targets in front of you and/or around while standing in place

>+(E,E,E,E)... - holding forward - a more targeted combo to catch up and follow the target

Block+(E,E,E,E...) - powerful but slower aoe combo while holding your position

Block+>+(E,E,E,E...) - powerful slower swings while catching up with a target

 

/discuss

[peterc3]

18 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

2. Charged attacks: first of all - why the hell normal hit and then charge? Can it be just quick tap or hold to charge (just like a bow, what's the problem?), And the second one - it should be something strong and awesome (i.e. like an arrow ragdolling a target and send it fly and hit whoever is on it's way).

The game has to wait for a bit to see whether you have held it or tapped it. The assumption for a bow would be you are holding and waiting. That bit of a second the game has to wait creates a bit of a hitch in the feel of melee swings, so it works like it does now.

20 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

 3. Channeling - it could be still useful if it drained shields or hp instead, kind of sacrifice for damage boost (I'd say any regular bows, thrown secondaries, aka cold weapons - should share this).

It's going away. The replacement system doesn't look anything like the existing Channeling. The restriction on weapon types makes no sense, either.

22 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

7. Unified combos as followed:

This is explicitly a thing. One of the first things that came out about Melee 3.0.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

I will state my own experience with the melee changes so far. Not specifical mechanic changes, but the feel of it in general.

I am above all a Polearm user. Guandao at that, even though I don't use stuff such as Maiming Strike. I am like that because on most other melees both the flow and range are pretty bad. Whips, for example, do have nice damage and a lot of range but I just don't like the feel of them so there's that, a matter of personal preference, mixed into it.

But recently I have tried Tatsu and loved it. Specially for the range. It's not as huge as that of a polearm, sure, but at least I can freely hit enemies without having to kiss them. Ninkondi Prime was another success in this regard, as it has good range and strikes in a 360º radius, which I love about it. Yesterday I also tried Galatine Prime again, and damn it's so much better in terms of feel compared to before.

On the other hand I also tried Kronen Prime yesterday. "Hey, if heavy swords (Galatine), nunchucks (ninkondi) and 2H Nikanas are so great then other melee types must have gotten great, right?" Well... Nope... Kronen Prime still felt pretty bad regarding range and overall feel. I don't know if the changes reached all melee weapons or if the changes just didn't cut it for the tonfas, but I do hope the full melee 3.0 makes me try weapons other than the polearms in a regular fashion.

---

All in all I am well satisfied with the melee changes so far. Don't see major issues with autoblock even though I'd prefer it was manual so I can control it for stuff like Guardian Derision, and right now I feel comfortable playing other types of weapon apart from polearm. Namely nunchucks and heavy swords. I hope it keeps improving as is, as the changes so far seem to hit their target with me at least. I still need to try out other melee types (Swords, dual swords, hammers, glaives, etc.) since I didn't like them before and I might enjoy them now.

Edited August 13, 2019 by (PS4)Hikuro-93

[BeardyKyle]

What changes are you talking about exactly? 

Seems the only change that has happened is quick switching between weapons, some stat changes and auto blocking. 

Not having a dedicated block button sucks btw.

[Caine2112]

Don't forget aimed ground slams.

[(PSN)AlucardUndying]

1 hour ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

7. Unified combos as followed:

E,E,E,E,E... - fast wide combo

>+(E,E,E,E)... - holding forward - a more targeted combo

Block+(E,E,E,E...) - powerful but slower

Block+>+(E,E,E,E...) - powerful

 

/discuss

Wow, so much raw skill involved. 

Push circle, then circle. Then you push circle, then circle and circle again. 

Now don't get confused, it gets a little tricky from this point on when you push circle again,then circle circle circle jerk your way to victory. 

Can't we just go back to the way it was? With more than one button for melee so I can decide if I just want one heavy hit, or a combo where I don't go flying off in some random direction or possible one quick hit to take out a pesky add in a boss fight? 

It would be less work to just give us the option to turn on auto melee and auto block or go back to the old system with weapon switching. 

[BeardyKyle]

1 hour ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

- snip -

you haven't really touched on anything new that wasn't already discussed in the devstream. Directional combos, air combos, combo canceling, ground slam changes are all coming.

If I had to say what's on my dream list for melee 3.0 it would be:

• Dedicated Block button back in effect.
• Channeling and Heavy attacks now share the same button.
• Melee combo into a finisher attack 

1. Combining channeling and strong attacks: No more energy drain, just hold to channel and release to attack. Channeling effects last for x seconds after attacking and stacks with your second channeled/heavy attack - Also works with Heavy Ground Slams.

2. Holding the Channel/Heavy attack button while also holding Block: will parry and reflect x% of incoming damage. - Releasing Channel/Heavy attack while still holding block will cancel your heavy attack and still keep the channeling effect for x seconds. 

Mods ideas to supplement this: Increase crit and status chance by x% while channeling, Increase range and channel duration by x%, Reduce incoming damage by x% while channeling, increase melee counter time while channeling. 

3. Combo into finishers: In close range, tap Block while Channeling to perform a quick stun that will open up an enemy to a finisher attack/Certain stances have combos that will stun enemies and open them to finishers.  

 

Complicated? A bit but so is the morse code we have now. This far more intuitive and fits the fast paced game-play better I think.

[Birdframe_Prime]

58 minutes ago, (PS4)AlucardUndying said:

Wow, so much raw skill involved. 

Just so you know, this is literally what DE are actually doing. If you've used Wukong's reworked 4, with the combos from that, it's been genuinely stated by DE that this is what they want to do for all Melee stances in the upcoming melee rework.

It's not supposed to be skill to pull off the combos, but they are intending to put in a secondary attack button for Heavy Attacks that can be worked into regular combos as and when you need. Plus a whole load of other things that will replace a lot of the melee functions in general.

Thus far, it's not a thing of 'work or less work', OP up there has basically just parroted exactly what DE have already said on their own threads.

But, further than what OP wants, they're planning on removing Channelling entirely in favour of making the Combo Counter a resource that you can charge and then spend on a 'devil trigger' mode that makes all of the melee functions better for as long as it's used.

It's actually really in-depth, touching on every melee stance, every ability melee, all the modding for channelling and blocking, even little things like having a soft lock-on so that we can dodge-roll cancel our melee combos while staying focused on a given target, or leave it for something else.

Fun times ahead, depending on how much they do with phase 3 of this process.

[Arcira]

I think the most important adjustments should be:

1.) Aim glide without switching to ranged weapons

2.) Auto block doesn´t interfer with channeling or other actions

 

Personal wishlist:

1.) Some improvements in terms of target tracking

2.) Animation cancel

3.) Individual melee animation especially for warframes like Wisp and Titania

Edited August 13, 2019 by Arcira

[BeardyKyle]

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

-snip-

Strange enough, the one think I wanted when melee rework was announced was directional melee. Now that I’ve played Wukong I kind of don’t like it. You’re almost always moving and you end up unintentionally interrupting a combo when you move. Also the block combos get mixed up often and so does going into a block attack when you really wanted to aim. 

I found myself missing the simpler hold combos at times and the certainty of control in your combos. Not that you always get them but when you do it’s satisfying, like actual fighting game combos that aren’t just button mashing.

Also, it might just be the Wukong animation but I don’t see the point of the gap closer attack, since we already have slide attacks which cover more distance faster, does more damage with little recover.

The solution I hope for in the final product is:

1. One Normal interruptible combo, your E E E

2. Change the directional combo to use the 2nd melee attack button instead of a direction key. 

3. Hold the second button melee button to heavy attack.

4. Two Directional attacks/combos. Only While holding block. We definitely need a consistent block button again. 

5. Also keep 1 simply hold combo per stance. Example: B1 B1 B2(hold) B1

I dunno man, DE has their work cut it for them with this for sure

 

 

Edited August 13, 2019 by BeardyKyle

[000l000]

I care about only one thing, no more spin-2-win. People who basically move faster than a Volt on drugs while killing everything around, even what they can't see, only by using a macro - is plain dumb gameplay. I'm kind of worried this hasn't been nerfed yet since it basically works like an exploit. Not fond of macros as a whole anyway, on PC it always ends with silly exploits. I didn't mind that when games were more complicated (macros to help with tanking in raids in some famous MMO) but Warframe is damn easy to play.

Edited August 14, 2019 by 000l000

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, BeardyKyle said:

Strange enough, the one think I wanted when melee rework was announced was directional melee. Now that I’ve played Wukong I kind of don’t like it.

A few people have said that, but I think it's the specific combination of animations they've used, and the fact that even though the combos have things like the forwards combo requiring you to hold forwards for each strike, letting go of it doesn't make you stop that combo and start the other, which would be pretty good for some depth.

The gap closer goes way further than the slide, but the problem is that it's single target and many people don't have that weird finger-hitch that lets them time an aim-forwards-melee instead of that ingrained forwards-crouch-melee. Which is unfortunate because if you're building for better status with Iron Staff, that gap Closer has two hits and three guaranteed Status procs, two on the first hit with a knock-down on the second, meaning that you gain those three Status functions for Condition Overload, while a slide attack will deal more base damage, but doesn't actually guarantee any Status, so the multiplied damage isn't as effective for higher level content.

The stationary combo is amazing though, the first hit deal 4x damage, the second hit deals 3x damage and the third hit is a radial attack with guaranteed knockdown for 8x damage... so DE aren't slacking off on giving you reasons to actually use the different combos.

It's just that change over that's really jarring right now, and maybe when we see more of those combos for more types of weapons, we'll actually find them way more intuitive and the gap-closers might be given even better bonuses to encourage them over the spin-to-win.

I personally would love to see some of the weapons, like the Lacera/Mios or the Glaives, get really interesting gap closers that throw out the weapon to attack and dash the player to the enemy instead of the enemy to the player, so that consecutive attacks can stun or even open for Finishers.

Heck, with the way they're working on this, I wouldn't actually be surprised if mods like Maiming Strike might instead apply to the Heavy Attacks, and spin attacks just become the hold-over so that instead of players mindlessly spamming their slides, we actually have players doing combos on trash mobs as they move, then gap-closing in on a problem enemy and timing their Heavy Attack usage in order to get that massively boosted crit chance when there's the most big enemies around them. The inherent slower speed of the Heavy Attacks would prevent players from spamming them consecutively, as that's just bad DPS, and we have some real Melee optimisation going on.

Melee combos with that system could be improved, I won't deny, but they could have some really good possibilities. What do you think?