Conclave Rework ideas - Following the Universal Medallion change

[S.Dust]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont think there is much that can be done for conclave, not to justify resources spent on it anyways. WF is a PvE game, people play it mainly for that. The few that do play conclave arent exactly the target group when it comes to development time and resources. They already tried several different PvP modes and they've all failed for one reason or another. Do they really need to try a 5th time? You'd think they'd get it by now that the vast majority of players in WF have no interest for PvP in this game.

When I wanna PvP I actually play games designed for PvP. I dont wish to have it injected into every game I play. This whole idea that every game must have PvP is a plague as big as the idea that every PvP game must have BR.

I mean from what I can tell people play it for dress up at this point. Also no pvp player is screaming to do anything to pve because guess what they play that too. It's not like we are trying to make Warframe pvp but it has a pvp section and people who like to play it. Also saying Warframe wasn't mean for pvp is just a dumb argument I could say Warframe wasn't designed for open worlds but we get those.

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

They should just delete conclave from the game entirely, this idea that shooters MUST have PVP is absurd.  The backlash would be felt less then the backlash from raid players as even less people play conclave then people who played raids when they were here.  I loved to raid, and will raid again when they release new raids.  I almost wish conclave code was spaghetti code that was causing a lot of problems like raids so they could easily justify removing it from the game like they did with raids.  

[SneakyErvin]

3 hours ago, S.Dust said:

I mean from what I can tell people play it for dress up at this point. Also no pvp player is screaming to do anything to pve because guess what they play that too. It's not like we are trying to make Warframe pvp but it has a pvp section and people who like to play it. Also saying Warframe wasn't mean for pvp is just a dumb argument I could say Warframe wasn't designed for open worlds but we get those.

While you may not intentionally scream to do something to PvE, you are still doing it passively when you ask for more PvP attention. If they shift more manpower to PvP it will make PvE suffer in return with even slower releases.

Warframe wasnt designed with PvP in mind while the open worlds keeps true to the systems and balance (or lack there of) of the game. Open Worlds are really just bigger instances, not much unlike regular maps.

[S.Dust]

20 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

If they shift more manpower to PvP it will make PvE suffer in return with even slower releases.

Yet everyone will kick and scream at pvp and not talk about the lack of releases that come to warframe. Warframe cant do anything without drawing from another things. 

[FlyingDice]

On 2019-09-11 at 5:16 PM, AJman14 said:

Thing is, I would love Conclave if I was against players that aren't toxic 1-build gate-keepers. If there was a ranking system, I feel like many more people would play, as they would have a chance to actually have an equal fight.

It's genuinely pathetic that you see insightful and contextually appropriate gear selection as being "toxic" or gatekeeping. All PvP in every game that has ever had it is based partially or solely on skill. A good chunk of skill is developing an understanding of available choices and which selections therein are optimal. You're acknowledging that there are good options for gear and bad options for gear, then following up by whining and blaming other people because you choose the bad ones.

If it became "Conclave, but with no Ignis Wraith or Sonicor or &c." you'd whine instead because more experienced players are better at tracking and shooting other players and demand that there be heavy aim-assist or something.

A ranking system would either a) be totally useless because of the small player pool, or b) #*!%ING QUEUE SPLIT, which is a death knell for any multiplayer game/mode with a low population.

[AJman14]

26 minutes ago, FlyingDice said:

It's genuinely pathetic that you see insightful and contextually appropriate gear selection as being "toxic" or gatekeeping. All PvP in every game that has ever had it is based partially or solely on skill. A good chunk of skill is developing an understanding of available choices and which selections therein are optimal. You're acknowledging that there are good options for gear and bad options for gear, then following up by whining and blaming other people because you choose the bad ones.

If it became "Conclave, but with no Ignis Wraith or Sonicor or &c." you'd whine instead because more experienced players are better at tracking and shooting other players and demand that there be heavy aim-assist or something.

A ranking system would either a) be totally useless because of the small player pool, or b) #*!%ING QUEUE SPLIT, which is a death knell for any multiplayer game/mode with a low population.

Agreed, I shouldn't have called them toxic gate-keepers... even though that's what they are. Using the most meta gear to destroy noob players. That's both toxic and gate-keeping, but I digress.

My problem with it is players lacking the most meta PVP gear have no chance in Conclave. It's not skill based; it's gear based.

Both your points about a ranking system are the same, are they not? I disagree with both, though, because having a ranking system would allow people to play against others with similar equipment and skills. It would be much more inviting for players of any skill level to start playing Conclave, making it more popular. DE could even hype up a Conclave rework, getting a lot more players to join in. Of the 50 or so times I played Conclave, there was almost always one player getting something like 20 kills to 2 deaths, because they have a Nikana with a slashing/dashing stance, or some other super-meta equipment. If they were pushed to a higher league I wouldn't be put off to the mode, as I would no longer be facing "toxic gate-keepers".

It may not be the best choice of words, but it's just in trying to get my point across.

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by AJman14

[S.Dust]

9 minutes ago, AJman14 said:

Agreed, I shouldn't have called them toxic gate-keepers... even though that's what they are. Using the most meta gear to destroy noob players. That's both toxic and gate-keeping, but I digress.

My problem with it is players lacking the most meta PVP gear have no chance in Conclave. It's not skill based; it's gear based.

Both your points about a ranking system are the same, are they not? I disagree with both, though, because having a ranking system would allow people to play against others with similar equipment and skills. It would be much more inviting for players of any skill level to start playing Conclave, making it more popular. DE could even hype up a Conclave rework, getting a lot more players to join in. Of the 50 or so times I played Conclave, there was almost always one player getting something like 20 kills to 2 deaths, because they have a Nikana with a slashing/dashing stance, or some other super-meta equipment. If they were pushed to a higher league I wouldn't be put off to the mode, as I would no longer be facing "toxic gate-keepers".

It may not be the best choice of words, but it's just in trying to get my point across.

 

Nothing in warframe other than MR is stopping you from using any weapon you want.

Using proper gear isn't gate keeping like what am I suppose to pull out the glaive and try to use the glaive only when someone who sucks at tracking shows up? Everyone starts out and noob and some of the more willing people actually get better when they take the suggestions that many conclave players will give if you ask for them and if they play more. Lol I would love to see someone rek with a nikana and if it was such a problem maybe you go airborn you know the place most melee cant reach. You're complaining about your lack of the ability to adapt. Even if he was using meta gear who ever the person is was not toxic for doing so since anyone else could use the same gear. Never gonna say I like when someone comes in with an arca but at the same time they're not gate keeping.

Also a ranking system would be dumb with the player size while you say you would start playing if people were equal to you DE has no guarantee of that and they would risk making matchmaking that much more difficult. 

 

[FlyingDice]

8 hours ago, AJman14 said:

Agreed, I shouldn't have called them toxic gate-keepers... even though that's what they are. Using the most meta gear to destroy noob players. That's both toxic and gate-keeping, but I digress.

My problem with it is players lacking the most meta PVP gear have no chance in Conclave. It's not skill based; it's gear based.

The Sonicor is an MR2 market BP weapon that requires nothing more advanced than oxium and argon crystals, and it's one of the best """cheap""" PvP weapons. Ignis Wraith is only MR9 and can be acquired for <5p if you somehow can't find someone willing to just give you a BP. Hell, Excal slash dash spam is an old conclave standby, and you can use that right from the moment you finish the tutorial.

And bear in mind that I'm not a conclave player. I think I'm rank 1 in it, but only because I just recently went back and decided to slowly grind it out for the skins. I loaded into one match, saw my old noob loadout from five years ago or whatever, and had a brief think about what would be most effective. Next match I 14-0ed some guy and he ragequit. Not because of the gear, but because of his bad choices -- he kept respawning and running out into the middle of the map, so every single fight I started with the advantage because I knew exactly where he was.

Gear is an excuse. It's like going into a CounterStrike server that doesn't ban AWP or auto and complaining about people using them. The real reason is that a lot of WF players don't play PvP games and aren't good at it, from lack of practice or whatever else it may be. The solution there isn't to whine about how unfair it is that other people are more experienced or more knowledgeable, it's to git gud keep playing and figure out how to improve. You see the same thing with Dark Souls invasions: nobody starts off good, we all suck at the beginning and get our S#&amp;&#036; stomped in by random internet strangers running hyperoptimized twinks. The difference is between people who take that as motivation to get better and a chance to learn in a challenging environment vs. the people who pull the plug and go whine about it on reddit.

8 hours ago, AJman14 said:

Both your points about a ranking system are the same, are they not? I disagree with both, though, because having a ranking system would allow people to play against others with similar equipment and skills. It would be much more inviting for players of any skill level to start playing Conclave, making it more popular. DE could even hype up a Conclave rework, getting a lot more players to join in. Of the 50 or so times I played Conclave, there was almost always one player getting something like 20 kills to 2 deaths, because they have a Nikana with a slashing/dashing stance, or some other super-meta equipment. If they were pushed to a higher league I wouldn't be put off to the mode, as I would no longer be facing "toxic gate-keepers".

No, they're not. Do you not have much experience with queue-based PvP games? The first option, soft queues, is meaningless with a small playerbase -- there are so few people that regardless of how the queue is structured you will still put old players and new players, good players and bad players, &c. into the same matches, because there simply aren't enough people playing to get full matches in a small skill range. A prime example of this in action is MWO (though that's also in part caused by their "skill" ranking system basically being a treadmill if you're not completely braindead).

The second option, hard queues (where you cannot ever be matched with someone outside of a certain skill range of you, whatever that metric may be) will kill the mode even more by making it more challenging to get matches. The current state isn't good, but there are enough people that you usually don't wait more than 5-10 minutes for a match in primetime.

The reason you see experienced players and obviously brand-new players in the same matches is because that's the only way you'll get a match without waiting for four or five times as long in queue (at which point most people would quit and do something else rather than continue to wait).

Finally, there already is a form of partial hard queue if you're doing what you're meant to as a new player. Leave Recruit Conditioning on. That prevents you from being matched with anyone at or above Tempest (rank 3). A lot of people just choose to turn it off to speed up queue times.

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, S.Dust said:

Yet everyone will kick and scream at pvp and not talk about the lack of releases that come to warframe. Warframe cant do anything without drawing from another things. 

What exactly is WF drawing from now? We have PvE, more PvE is in development, that looks like a normal dev cycle to me. So what is it they magically draw resources from that could be released instead?

[trst]

10 hours ago, AJman14 said:

Agreed, I shouldn't have called them toxic gate-keepers... even though that's what they are. Using the most meta gear to destroy noob players. That's both toxic and gate-keeping, but I digress.

My problem with it is players lacking the most meta PVP gear have no chance in Conclave. It's not skill based; it's gear based.

Both your points about a ranking system are the same, are they not? I disagree with both, though, because having a ranking system would allow people to play against others with similar equipment and skills. It would be much more inviting for players of any skill level to start playing Conclave, making it more popular. DE could even hype up a Conclave rework, getting a lot more players to join in. Of the 50 or so times I played Conclave, there was almost always one player getting something like 20 kills to 2 deaths, because they have a Nikana with a slashing/dashing stance, or some other super-meta equipment. If they were pushed to a higher league I wouldn't be put off to the mode, as I would no longer be facing "toxic gate-keepers".

It may not be the best choice of words, but it's just in trying to get my point across.

 

You do know that nearly every single conclave mod has a niche effect that won't always be beneficial and/or come with (sometimes extreme) downsides, right?

If you honestly think that gear is the only thing stopping new players from performing well in conclave you're only proving a lack of skill and knowledge of the mode. And even if the gear did matter that much then what happens when players with said gear go against eachother? Because it is not a competition of who-sees-who-first. Combat between actual experienced conclave players is a game of reaction time, maintaining weapon and bullet jumping aim, and spacial awareness all of which matter far more than what mods they're using.

Really what someone is using means nothing when they can casually bullet jump off every uneven wall in a cramped environment all while maintaining a steady aim on someone who's never had to aim at something moving so erratically in the game before.

 

Also a matchmaking system would absolutely destroy Conclave as it is currently because the lack of matches is the exact reason a lot players who were interested in playing weren't able to have a chance to. And such a system would make it even harder for those who do play to actually find matches.

Just look at a game like League of Legends which uses a fairly strict ELO/MMR matchmaking system. Average queue times range from seconds to 5 minutes for 90% of players, while players in the topmost brackets see average queue times of 30+ minutes in a very active PvP only game where high-rank players need to play regularly to maintain said rank. And the highest rank of the game only consists of 200 players at any given time, which is likely much larger than our active Conclave community, and they're still waiting that long for each game.

Edited September 13, 2019 by trst

[AJman14]

My point was that DE doesn't want PVE to affect PVP, according to their change to Universal Medallions. Along those lines, why should PVE gear affect PVP gear?

Maybe weapons just need to be balanced in PVP. There are maybe 4 that people have mentioned as the go-to. Honestly, that's pretty bad.

I really do agree with you guys to a point, but we can't shoot down every Conclave idea as stupid, simply because it may be initially harder to match-make. Like I said, DE can hype a Conclave rework, bringing in a lot more people to the mode.

[Kontrollo]

7 hours ago, AJman14 said:

My point was that DE doesn't want PVE to affect PVP, according to their change to Universal Medallions. Along those lines, why should PVE gear affect PVP gear?

Maybe weapons just need to be balanced in PVP. There are maybe 4 that people have mentioned as the go-to. Honestly, that's pretty bad.

I really do agree with you guys to a point, but we can't shoot down every Conclave idea as stupid, simply because it may be initially harder to match-make. Like I said, DE can hype a Conclave rework, bringing in a lot more people to the mode.

Actually, PvE affects PvP far more than the other way around. Save for the three starters, you can't get any Warframe through PvP gameplay, nor any weapon. On the other side, there's nothing exclusively in the Conclave Syndicate that affects PvE progression. The only things you can't get in PvE (so far) are the cosmetics.

Also, whenever they tweak a weapon in PvE, there's a high chance the changes bleed over into PvP, because they're based on the PvE base stats. Again, the reverse isn't true.

 

Yes, there are a few things that are overly powerful, overly easy to use, or overly annoying to fight against in the Conclave. These need to be looked at. However. most things are fairly balanced. You can go in there with an Mk1-Braton, a Lato, and a Skana, and come out on top. Most weapons are viable options.

[AJman14]

21 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Actually, PvE affects PvP far more than the other way around. Save for the three starters, you can't get any Warframe through PvP gameplay, nor any weapon. On the other side, there's nothing exclusively in the Conclave Syndicate that affects PvE progression. The only things you can't get in PvE (so far) are the cosmetics.

Also, whenever they tweak a weapon in PvE, there's a high chance the changes bleed over into PvP, because they're based on the PvE base stats. Again, the reverse isn't true.

 

Yes, there are a few things that are overly powerful, overly easy to use, or overly annoying to fight against in the Conclave. These need to be looked at. However. most things are fairly balanced. You can go in there with an Mk1-Braton, a Lato, and a Skana, and come out on top. Most weapons are viable options.

That's what I was saying. PVE affects PVP. However, DE doesn't want that based on the change they made to the Universal Medallion. I didn't say whether or not PVP affects PVE. It doesn't make a difference IMO.

I disagree about the basic weapons. The only way you would come out on top is if the people with meta gear are just awful at PVP in general.

[Ballas]

Conclave has been a topic of discussion for a very long time, having sudden changes might throw off the whole gamemode, I believe some slow changes and re-balancing might bring more people in / back and help for others to settle in, again we are unsure when such changes might arrive.

[AJman14]

7 hours ago, Ballas said:

Conclave has been a topic of discussion for a very long time, having sudden changes might throw off the whole gamemode, I believe some slow changes and re-balancing might bring more people in / back and help for others to settle in, again we are unsure when such changes might arrive.

But here's the problem with that. Slow changes feels like no changes when people aren't playing it. At what point would players realize, "Oh hey, Conclave is actually fun now!"? If DE were to add new modes and/or fix the current mode at the same time as hyping it up, it would help people to realize it is actually playable and enjoyable now.

When they added Lunaro, nobody really played. It's not what people wanted and it's not what players were asking for. The update was hardly mentioned, and they did nothing to fix the already existing PVP mode.

It seems like DE feel defeated with the whole Conclave issue. They tried adding a new mode hoping it would get some hype, but how they did it was wrong. They didn't listen to players asking for them to fix Conclave. Instead, they just pushed more content, trying to cover it up. It shows. I don't want that to happen again. It has to be done correctly and with player feedback in mind. I know I may sound a little hypocritical as my point number 3 was to add a new mode, but it's not a new game like Lunaro was. It's the current game with a new competitive leveling system.

Please DE, don't let this happen again.