(Lore)(Spoilers) So, I'm farming Wisp, and what [SPOILER] tells me the whole time, makes me think...

[HugintheCrow]

3 minutes ago, Kazzamo said:

By no means a good thing, but it is civilization with humans

You just confirmed your bias, literally what I mentioned above.

7 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

It's normal to empathise more with humanoids, it's common knowledge now that humans can't feel bad for people that look differently than them.

You exhibit that exact behaviour, unconsciously.

Here is the kicker: Orokin crimes and evil == Sentient crimes and evil. There is no "Sentient are worse". You only think so because they look different than you. They are both mass murderers on an insane scale.

Yes, of course, Sentient are pretty evil from our perspective, but if we say that Sentient are evil, we must condemn the Orokin EQUALLY, or we'll be hypocritical.

And you know what is "a civilisation with humans"?

Corpus who we slaughter mercilessly. And no, we don't kill the bigwigs, we murder the low-tier wageslaves. Hmm...

Edited October 27, 2019 by HugintheCrow

[Kazzamo]

I don't think favoring a civilization that has living people over everyone being killed by rogue terraformers is a bias...or an unreasonable one anyway. No more than saying not killing everyone is better than everyone being killed.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Kazzamo

[HugintheCrow]

2 minutes ago, Kazzamo said:

I don't think favoring a civilization that has living people over everyone being killed by rogue terraformers is a bias...

Even the way you put it is biased.

If you weren't biased you'd say:

Quote

I don't think favoring a civilization that murders x people over a civilization that murders y people is a bias...

But it totally is biased, you don't want humans to be killed, but want sentients to be killed. Sentients want humans to be killed but not sentients to be killed.

It is the same feeling. You cannot condemn Sentients if you don't condemn Orokin.

Edited October 27, 2019 by HugintheCrow

[Kazzamo]

Orokin didn't genocide, yeah did horrible things like taking people from colonies for the orokin to take new bodies but no proof of flat out genocide. Some immoral things like creating a slave race via cloning but I digress. There is a degree of horrible, and I'm firmly on the side of killing every human is worse than killing some humans. So yeah, I'll condemn the orokin, but the sentients are worse. For the record I dislike Natah as well, wasn't exactly a fan of Lotus to begin with, it's nothing to do with me thinking robots or non-humans bad. It's a stance that robots that plan to kill LITERALLY EVERYONE are bad.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Kazzamo

[HugintheCrow]

9 minutes ago, Kazzamo said:

Orokin didn't genocide

Sending Infestation to earth to remove it's population isn't genocide?

Grineer being literally like jews in nazi germany's concentration camps isn't genocide? (This one follows a literal, law definition of genocide, btw, so you can't even argue it isn't)

Kuva stuff isn't genocide or at least a crime against humanity?

Masacring rebel colonies using mercenaries isn't genocide? (Ordan Karris, a bloody killer, a merciless merc, was SO DISGUSTED by things he had to do for Orokin he suicide-attacked them in their capital)

Live experiments on INVOLUNTARY people to make them into infested slave warriors isn't a crime against humanity?

Using child soldiers isn't a war crime?

At this point, is there even a SINGLE thing that Orokin did that ISN'T a grave crime against literally any morality or law?

Edited October 27, 2019 by HugintheCrow

[Kazzamo]

Like I said, the grineer were a clone based slave race. Immoral, very immoral. Infestation didn't start until THE SENTIENTS because it was an attempt at a weapon the technovore monsters couldn't turn against them. The orokin are very very immoral, horribly so. But killing /every single person in the entire origin system/ is worse.

Edit: Also considering how the grineer ended up without the orokin? With being decaying xenophobic fascists themselves the grineer are nazis.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Kazzamo

[HugintheCrow]

1 minute ago, Kazzamo said:

Like I said, the grineer were a clone based slave race. Immoral, very immoral. Infestation didn't start until THE SENTIENTS because it was an attempt at a weapon the technovore monsters couldn't turn against them. The orokin are very very immoral, horribly so. But killing /every single person in the entire origin system/ is worse.

Wow, you really have a problem accepting how bad the orokin really were.

Infestation was earlier than the sentients, btw (Great plague mentioned in Mire lore for example, which was Orokin killing every person on earth to clear it for themselves). It was also used to fight them, but failed to do much, other than attacking civilians and bystanders, adding to Orokin warcrimes.

If you hate mass genocide, Orokin killed more people than sentients. That's a fact.

[Kazzamo]

Haven't seen anything about that being the Great Plague, even the wiki is ambiguous and unsure of what the great plague is. Also we don't know the body count of the old war so hard to call it a fact, but even so it simply means that the sentients were unsuccessful in their attempt. Had the sentients not failed there would be no origin system left. No corpus, no grineer, no solarians, no osterons, no tenno, nothing but dust and machines.

[Troposphere6]

12 minutes ago, Kazzamo said:

 

Edit: Also considering how the grineer ended up without the orokin? With being decaying xenophobic fascists themselves the grineer are nazis.

The grineer aren't without the orokin, the older grineer queen is an orokin inside a grineer body. 

[HugintheCrow]

17 minutes ago, Kazzamo said:

Edit: Also considering how the grineer ended up without the orokin? With being decaying xenophobic fascists themselves the grineer are nazis.

 

1 minute ago, Troposphere6 said:

The grineer aren't without the orokin, the older grineer queen is an orokin inside a grineer body. 

This, except BOTH queens are actually Orokin.

 

3 minutes ago, Kazzamo said:

Haven't seen anything about that being the Great Plague, even the wiki is ambiguous and unsure of what the great plague is. Also we don't know the body count of the old war so hard to call it a fact, but even so it simply means that the sentients were unsuccessful in their attempt. Had the sentients not failed there would be no origin system left. No corpus, no grineer, no solarians, no osterons, no tenno, nothing but dust and machines.

That end state is what would happen anyway if Orokin successfully moved to Tau system. Get it to your head already, I'm not defending Sentients, I'm saying you shouldn't consider them worse than Orokin, because Orokin are JUST as bad.

Edited October 27, 2019 by HugintheCrow

[Troposphere6]

Just now, HugintheCrow said:

 

This, except BOTH queens are actually Orokin.

Oh really? I didn't realize that. I thought only the elder queen specifically identifies herself as orokin 

[HugintheCrow]

3 minutes ago, Troposphere6 said:

Oh really? I didn't realize that. I thought only the elder queen specifically identifies herself as orokin 

They are Orokin sisters, twins even. Confirmed by the lore in the Kuria scans.

They were shunned by other Orokin because of fear against twins.

Quote

A Story once lost
Recovered by fate
The tale of two sisters
Who bore the same face

#2 - 
Born one quiet morning
Amidst the great war
All elders were gathered
For this life's new dawn

#3 - 
Confused and bewildered
They judged them amiss
For they never witnessed
Two self-same as these

(...)

Their sameness was shunned
As slave-like and soiled (here we see some good old Orokin racism, btw)
They tended their strays
Rejected by all

The reason why the Queens were accepted by Grineer is specifically becasue they looked like "clones", like Grineer.

Quote

#11 -
The copies could see it
They yearned for it too
If the twins could do it
Perhaps they could too

#12 -
The twins had attained
Something more than a whole
A true understanding
Of each other soul

#13 -
The copies became believers
One by one bowed to the twins
And led forth by their new masters
They ravaged the colonies

 

Edited October 27, 2019 by HugintheCrow

[Kazzamo]

How much full orokin culture they got is questionable. Because they were twins they were outcasts but yes by birth the grineer queens are orokin. So fair point there.

[HugintheCrow]

1 minute ago, Kazzamo said:

How much full orokin culture they got is questionable. Because they were twins they were outcasts but yes by birth the grineer queens are orokin. So fair point there.

Well, them being shunned (nearly killed, their father was the one who barely defended them) for something so irrelevant only shows how stuck up in a superiority complex Orokin truly were.

[Troposphere6]

3 minutes ago, Kazzamo said:

How much full orokin culture they got is questionable. Because they were twins they were outcasts but yes by birth the grineer queens are orokin. So fair point there.

I think your arguing a loosing battle the point of the orokin story wise is to show that things are not what they appear. The orokin appear at the start as a utopia but the more you learn about them the more violently xenophobic they appear to be. The sentients on the other hand appear to be monstrosities but the more you learn about them the less monstrous they appear. Also the sentients attacking cetus was about them trying to get to the Unum because they were under the impression that the temple kuva could restore there ability to reproduce. 

[HugintheCrow]

4 minutes ago, Troposphere6 said:

I think your arguing a loosing battle the point of the orokin story wise is to show that things are not what they appear. The orokin appear at the start as a utopia but the more you learn about them the more violently xenophobic they appear to be. The sentients on the other hand appear to be monstrosities but the more you learn about them the less monstrous they appear. Also the sentients attacking cetus was about them trying to get to the Unum because they were under the impression that the temple kuva could restore there ability to reproduce. 

Which is the exact point I'm trying to make.

Sentients are evil, yes. But not as evil to overtake the pure malice of the orokin. From sentient perspective they are fighting to save the world from evil orokin. They got too far into fanaticism, and now became the evil they wanted to destroy, but at least their intentins were once somewhat noble. Orokin were evil through and through.

[ant99999]

1 час назад, Kazzamo сказал:

Orokin didn't genocide

Of course not. Orokin was a peaceful race. Like it's not that they had a clan of mercinaries killing in their na... wait a minute...

A colossal moon made of rib and skull. The gravity-sum of genocides I've made in their name.

No, Orokin totally didn't genocide.

Also they never ate people... or switched bodies with them... or turned them into datacubes... or deliberately infected them with Technocide... or had a race of rightless slaves... or, I don't know, never even sabotaged their own kind to have them all killed just to have a revenge for them killing their girlfriend...

I mean it's obviously all Sentient propaganda, isn't it?

[Troposphere6]

4 minutes ago, ant99999 said:

Of course not. Orokin was a peaceful race. Like it's not that they had a clan of mercinaries killing in their na... wait a minute...

A colossal moon made of rib and skull. The gravity-sum of genocides I've made in their name.

No, Orokin totally didn't genocide.

Also they never ate people... or switched bodies with them... or turned them into datacubes... or deliberately infected them with Technocide... or had a race of rightless slaves... or, I don't know, never even sabotaged their own kind to have them all killed just to have a revenge for them killing their girlfriend...

I mean it's obviously all Sentient propaganda, isn't it?

Don't forget turning children of a terrible accident into soldiers then executing there caretaker for caring about them.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

2 hours ago, Kazzamo said:

Very untrue, the orokin were a ruling class. By no means a good thing, but it is civilization with humans, including the transhumanist orokin. The sentients are an artificial construct with nothing but genocide to them to "protect" the worlds from the people they were terraformed for. As I said before, it's your coffee pot trying to kill you for drinking the coffee, it's your car trying to kill you for driving it, they adapted beyond their programming and became a threat to everyone.

I wonder what would happen if we found out we were Sentients fooled into thinking we were human children just as Natah was fooled into believing she was a human-like mother.

What If we are just captured infiltrator units mimicking children?

What If the insanity on the Zariman has to do with parents not knowing if their child was a mimick or real?

Edited October 27, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[TARINunit9]

19 hours ago, Aegisar said:

You'd expect that such warhawks could stomach losing their soldiers in battle, but no, that is too much to ask for. The second the Sentients cannot curb-stomp the Orokin, they throw a hissy fit.

What a bunch of losers.

What's actually going on is Natah is losing her mind to multiple layers of brainwashing (to the point where she has no idea who brainwashed her first, Ballas or the Mother Wyrm; the only reason she's working for the Sentients at all is because the Mother Wyrm brainwashed her most recently) combined with a very sore spot for Sentients: reproductive sterility. Sentients have a HUGE hangup on being able to breed, to the point where Ballas's forces (Natah included) had ALREADY made the ultimate sacrifice for their army as soon as they lost their wombs, despite the fact they hadn't even gone into combat yet. Sentients will even charge headlong into traps and suicide missions on the hope that sterility can be cured (see the final battle of Gara)

[ant99999]

41 минуту назад, Troposphere6 сказал:

Don't forget turning children of a terrible accident into soldiers then executing there caretaker for caring about them.

Ah, yes that time when they desided to put children and civillians in numbers that vary from thousands to millions into a military ship using an experimental technology to then throw it into the Void and see what happens.

Such a carefully conducted experiment that in no way was a crime against their own people.

[SilverBones]

A reminder; everyone loves a good lore discussion - including to motives, morality and everything in between, but that does not mean that the discussion has to degrade into personal attacks. Keep it civil please folks.

[Skaleek]

Well there's a lot of viewpoints in this thread. A lot of excellent points made for and against both the sentients and orokin. I've done some thinking and...

As a fair and impartial adjudicator, I have decided to continue to kill them all and farm their loot.

Justice dispensed. Good day.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Skaleek

[Formous]

On 2019-10-27 at 7:59 AM, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Herein lies the hubris of the Orokin, creating instruments of their own destruction that mirrored their need for power and control at all costs...users and consumers of the worst kind.

But whereas the Orokin literally sacrifice and eat their young and each other to maintain and grow in power (Sentients, Yuvan Children, the Jade Light), the Sentients EVOLVED into a hyper-familial super-organism that was a superior version of these elitist and self-absorbed, j@ck@sses.

Actually there are strong hints that Ballas intended the Sentients to rebel. The Sentient project only went forward beacuse he OK'ed it after Margulis' death, which is when he began to plan his defection. The Tenno and Sentients were his tools to destroy the empire.

[Oreades]

On 2019-10-26 at 5:56 PM, Aegisar said:

May I remind you, that it was the Sentients, who declared war first AND that they drafted their entire species into this war.

Pretty sure they didn't, If my understanding of how things went is correct. 

1. Orokin Create the Sentients 
2. Orokin Send the Sentients to Tau to terraform it cause they wrecked Sol
3. Sentients get to Tau and decide the Orokin are butts and stop taking orders
4. The Orokin attack first with "the golden wrath" 
5. The Sentients retaliate with "The Old War" 

The Orokin struck first after the Sentients functionally declared independence and then the Sentients sent a strikeforce to Tau knowing the Void would probably kill/gravely injure them to put a stop to the threat. 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Oreades