Stealth Changes Are Too Extreme

[ThusaDragon]

Over the past few months, I've noticed enemies in Warframe becoming more and more perceptive. First, they started seeing much farther distances. Odd, I thought, but maybe they wanted to even things out with landscape enemies' vision for some reason? It was annoying, but it could still be countered by staying at a different elevation from the enemy. Now that I've come back to the game after a couple months, however, enemies now see at a wide angle up and down as well.

The other day I was lucky I was looking in the right direction to notice an osprey immediately but silently notice me rounding a corner. A crewman, equally silently, bolted for the alarm. This led to me frantically obliterating everything in the room trying not to let the alarm get set off. If I hadn't seen them, the alarm would have been triggered for seemingly no reason. A similarly stressful situation plays out in practically every mission I take on. Is it realistic for the enemies to take such precautions against death? Sure. Is it fun? Not really.

I'm still asking myself how these changes are meant to improve the game. Let's consider the main possible reasons I can think of, with my counterarguments to each:

• Immersion. Enemies no longer seem like they're half-asleep or ignoring danger.
  • While it makes sense for armed guards to notice brightly colored agents of death from more than thirty or so meters away, I don't think heavy realism or immersion is the main point of Warframe. And if it were, there would hopefully be tools to distract or counter enemy alertedness like in games more solely focused on stealth.
  • Allowing enemies some ability to notice their dead allies was a change I was willing to welcome back when The War Within came out, since corpses being totally ignored strains believability just a touch. But it's enough to have just a suggestion that leaving a mess will have consequences for stealth. Making enemies eagle-eyed corpse detectors doesn't enhance immersion much beyond what the original change (noticing only very nearby corpses) did.
• Countering abuse of mechanics. It was too easy to blow through waves of unsuspecting enemies to get cheap stealth affinity, or at least to keep them from being able to shoot back in time. Now they pose a challenge even to very fast or sneaky players.
  • The cheesiest cheese that stealth has to offer is using sleep and invisibility abilities. These abilities are still just as useful for going unharmed and getting affinity as before, and in fact, are now the only reliable way to stay undetected for more than a few seconds at a time. Making enemies hyper-perceptive encourages cheesy tactics while punishing players who want to take their time and be careful.
  • The near-impossibility of getting stealth affinity with ranged weapons might just be a bug, but whatever the case, it leaves little reason to use silenced or sniper-range weapons.
  • Most players who want to maximize affinity gain already have non-stealthy ways to get it, such as endless missions. Gear will be power-leveled regardless of how perceptive enemies are. If affinity gain is a concern, changes could be made to those other methods, but that's a whole different discussion.
• Encouraging open combat. Warframe is about awesome action in space! Don't waste time hiding, get in there and rumble!
  • There are plenty of mission types that require open combat already, and they're fun...when they're not the only possible experience the game offers. Allowing players to choose a more methodical and careful way to get through some mission types is a great change of pace from the usual bombastic action, and it plays very well into the ninja-esque aesthetic of the Tenno.
  • Different mission types feel less distinct now that enemies are nearly always alerted in most situations. It feels like the player's options are more limited than before. I enjoy Survival sometimes and Spy other times, but now, keeping Spy missions (or any other mission) from devolving into miniature Survival encounters is stressful and feels largely luck-based.
  • Getting seen and having to rush to rectify the situation works great as a tense moment punctuating a stealth experience every once in a while, especially if it feels like the player's actions led to that moment. It's a lot less interesting when it happens near-unavoidably in almost every single room.
  • It's not like players are required to be stealthy in most situations. Less patient players have a grand old time noisily blazing through Exterminate missions; they were noticed even when enemies were not as perceptive. They won't lose anything if enemies stop being eagle-eyed.

To sum up: Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not really convinced that there's a great reason for enemies to see this well in Warframe.

Given the number of threads regarding how hard it is to complete the Mastery Rank 9 test, something needs to change. At least the test itself, but hopefully more. It's not the only chunk of content that was clearly made with different enemy perception in mind. Most tiles in most missions have floors of different elevations - these were once useful to players wanting to avoid detection from different floors, but less so now. Whatever the intent of the increased enemy detection is, it's too frustrating on a regular basis for me to see why it's worth keeping as is.

I'm not saying the enemies have to necessarily go back to being as blind as before, but they don't increase the fun of the game in their current form. While I doubt solo, stealthy players like myself are in the majority, it would be a shame to lose the quieter side of gameplay. Thank you for reading.

Edited November 19, 2019 by ThusaDragon

[CedarDpg]

Next up, enemies with X-Ray vision that can see through all obstacles. 🙂

[Tyreaus]

29 minutes ago, CedarDpg said:

Next up, enemies with X-Ray vision that can see through all obstacles. 🙂

Today, I walked into a room on Ceres. There was machine gun fire from a Rampart. I had to wonder if the Rampart got rad procced from...IDK, space lasers? because it was firing at something.

Turns out it was me.
In the next tile over.
With the door just opened and a nice and sturdy wall still standing between me and him.

So yeah. We're already there.

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_]

-They never announced this change

-They have never acknowledged this problem, or given a reason for doing it in the first place

-This affects Stealth gameplay/focus farming method

-This screws over all newbs in stealth mastery rank missions

-This screws over alot of conservation targets (Bolarola, Horrasque,  some Pobbers, )   Bola can see you even through invisability!!!

-This has been going on for several months (and have seen many many threads all talking about these problems as soon as it started and nothing happens..)

 

I understand putting all your focus on new content and bug squashing that.  But at the VERY LEAST you owe people an acknowledgement of problems we are dealing with.   And some things that are game breaking should take priority over new stuff.  Like desync issues messing up disruptions, eso, fissures that makes parts of the game to frustrating to even play.  And even worse you give us Nightwave challenges to play broken content.

[Tyanya]

Hi there

The problem is, we don't know whether this is a stealth stealth nerf, or code went wonky during an update because nothing was announced, surely if something as important as a major game mechanic was drastically changed it would be in the patch notes somewhere?

DE have been transparent about the majority of game changes they've made, regardless of their potential unpopularity, so despite this undesired change persisting for many months, I've still got my fingers crossed that they'll get around to fixing it one day. ☺️

Cheers then

[Cursed_Slick]

I've been led here by Tyanya and I can't agree more with you.

I loved doing stealth stuff and getting the exp bonus from it with silent weapons but man sometimes you just step into a room and all of china knows you're there.

[Syasob]

28 minutes ago, Tyanya said:

The problem is, we don't know whether this is a stealth stealth nerf, or code went wonky during an update because nothing was announced, surely if something as important as a major game mechanic was drastically changed it would be in the patch notes somewhere?

This.

There was no such thing as 'stealth nerf' in Warframe until recently, we could get unsufficient info about new content in patchnotes but every single intengeg change has been listed and if it's not there - it's definitely a bug.

But now important game mechanics are changed with absolutely no response from DE, there were lots of topics about over-perceptive enemies for example but not a single official response about it. Now we get another hit to the basic stealth when sleepquinox etc left unchanged.

I feel actually forced to cheese the game: hunting with Ivara was ten times easier than with tranq rifle and now it's almost impossible to get perfect without being invisible. Stealth farm was better with Equinox and now ranged kills only count stealthy when the target is asleep.

We players deserve either straight up announced changes (even when it's a hard pill to swallow) or some response that it's a bug and will be fixed someday.

[Fleuretty]

Adding to this list is that when a kuvaling spawns it effectively sets the entire tile into alert state, ruining stealth play for anyone deciding to opt out of lich content.

[(XBOX)H00D3D R4C00N]

 on sortie rescue missions the alarm is auto triggered not sure how they sense 4 cloked lokis in a door way unless its my bright pink energy 

 

[(XBOX)WolfKingLeo]

I don't know how the Grineer can sence Ivara with their turret while Prowl is Active. 

[Tyanya]

8 hours ago, (XB1)H00D3D R4C00N said:

 on sortie rescue missions the alarm is auto triggered not sure how they sense 4 cloked lokis in a door way unless its my bright pink energy 

 

That's just the mechanics of the sortie rescue, it's always been that way, adds an extra layer of minor trickiness, Lotus announces it during the sortie, something along the lines of, "If they see a shock of pink energy come through the doors they'll instantly sound the alarm" or something like that. 😄

[(XBOX)H00D3D R4C00N]

On 2019-11-19 at 9:58 PM, Tyanya said:

That's just the mechanics of the sortie rescue, it's always been that way, adds an extra layer of minor trickiness, Lotus announces it during the sortie, something along the lines of, "If they see a shock of pink energy come through the doors they'll instantly sound the alarm" or something like that. 😄

Lols oh , i had enough of lotus shouting, bossing and general popping heckles when im focused on the task in hand so i turned all transmissions offt even that crack pot of humanoid computer interface ordis ..ah and the music its cool but cant hear those chiming secret chests. So my bad b4 i got to do sorties ive had gun fire and screems fullvol over the annoying sound of space mum.🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️😂

 

[Tyanya]

2 hours ago, (XB1)H00D3D R4C00N said:

i had enough of lotus shouting, bossing and general popping heckles when im focused on the task in hand so i turned all transmissions off

Just had word through that Lotus is displeased with your actions, at some point The Lotus will unleash her wrath upon you, all us lot will be fine, invited around for tea and biscuits, but for you, dark skies ahead my friend, just you though.

[Uthael]

The Grineer are trained and threatened by their bosses to do stuff perfectly or they're useless. If they're useless, they're free game for anyone to execute.

The Corpus have robots. Ospreys, turrets and moas. Technology is always vigilant.

BUT! Grineer often seem portrayed as dumb. Also, steering attention to oneself for possibly no reason might get you executed anyway. Grineer grunts shouldn't be as vigilant as the higher-ranking units. Heck! If one sees a Tenno without backup nearby, there should be a 50% chance that it'll intentionally turn away, start whistling and move in the opposite direction of the Tenno.

The corpus humans most likely have other problems in their life and are doing the military job just to get by or feed their families. They should be on low alert for very long and when they do spot something, they should try to survive at all costs. Meaning, even if it's a few of them, they should try to flee unless they have a nullifier, an officer or a lot of tech nearby.

What I'm experiencing is:
I mount my archwing after some time of ground combat.
I get locked by <infinite damage to archwing> missiles in the same split-second.
The shooter shows no sign of fear or intelligence. He continues aiming at me fully exposed, maybe even taking a step forward.
I slam down on the poor guy by accident, to avoid getting dismounted by him.

Great reactions. Such AI.

[Tyanya]

There has just been a comment from Rebb in stream --> "There is a problem with stealth at the moment and we are aware of it"

So yay. 😄

[Nok-Rntha]

Yep. One of the reasons I was so disappointed with Plains of Eidolon initially was due to enemies seeing for fockin miles. Thankfully, mining, fishing, conservation and hunting Domas more than make up for that, but I still wish there was some incentive for stealthily clearing out the camps of Grineer outside of Bounties.

Recently, I tried to finally level up my Hushticor with my max invis duration Loki and get that sweet 5x solo affinity from stealth kills chains on Corpus, but that's just plain gone. That's also half the reason why I've grown to actually enjoy Voidspawn gameplay and their weaponry. I liked leaving my frame at the beginning of an Exterminate mission and seeing how far I could go with just my Baby Plasmor amp.

So, yeah. Please fix stealth.

[Ikusias]

On 2019-11-22 at 9:16 PM, Tyanya said:

There has just been a comment from Rebb in stream --> "There is a problem with stealth at the moment and we are aware of it"

So yay. 😄

This kind of response is my main reason in wanting to genocide the lotus, her family and a good half of the origin system with maximum prejudice and BFGs

[NinjaDuckie]

I used to do Adaro on Sedna as Loki for maximum Simaris standing. Sometimes you could hit your cap in a single go, with unalerted enemies dropping 200+ standing each time. Now it seems if I drop out of invisibility for more than one second, even if I'm standing in the #*!%ing ceiling, I'm instantly spotted by everyone and their grandmother.

On 2019-11-22 at 8:16 PM, Tyanya said:

"There is a problem with stealth at the moment and we are aware of it"

A problem that's been ongoing for months at this point. I had noticed that you no longer get stealth multipliers from kills with silent weapons unless they're a bow or you're specifically using the 'stealth attack' prompt in melee... And even they're not guaranteed.

[Nok-Rntha]

2 hours ago, NinjaDuckie said:

I used to do Adaro on Sedna as Loki for maximum Simaris standing. Sometimes you could hit your cap in a single go, with unalerted enemies dropping 200+ standing each time. Now it seems if I drop out of invisibility for more than one second, even if I'm standing in the #*!%ing ceiling, I'm instantly spotted by everyone and their grandmother.

A problem that's been ongoing for months at this point. I had noticed that you no longer get stealth multipliers from kills with silent weapons unless they're a bow or you're specifically using the 'stealth attack' prompt in melee... And even they're not guaranteed.

You're telling me. I was gone for a few months and when I came back, something that wasn't broken before was broken now. I mean, I didn't think stealth was that important, but you don't appreciate what you have until it's gone and I had no idea Stealth would get nerfed so hard like this (just like I had no idea Catchmoon would be stomped to the ground, but that's a completely different topic)

[Noir_CZ]

Can't really speak for others but in my case... enjoyment from game plummeted drastically. And not for the endless grind... but for the stealth being broken. I really liked it... a lot

And yes... I am one of the weird ones who loves spy missions.

[Nok-Rntha]

19 minutes ago, Noir_CZ said:

Can't really speak for others but in my case... enjoyment from game plummeted drastically. And not for the endless grind... but for the stealth being broken. I really liked it... a lot

And yes... I am one of the weird ones who loves spy missions.

I complained about having to do Spy missions for Ivara and one of Harrow's parts, cuz I didn't wanna ask people for help, but playing them solo made me adore them. When a friend then needed help with a spy mission (he was completing the star chart for the first time), I got upset when he tripped an alarm, so next time, I told him to sit in a corner and just wait till I complete them. Hell, I could even do entire Spy missions without killing anything (cameras notwithstanding). It does feel nice to slow down every once in a while.

Edited November 24, 2019 by Nok-Rntha

[Nok-Rntha]

Just now, Nok-Rntha said:

 

oops, accidental double-post, delete please

Edited November 24, 2019 by Nok-Rntha

[DatDarkOne]

On 2019-11-19 at 2:04 AM, (PS4)AbBaNdOn_ said:

They never announced this change

-They have never acknowledged this problem, or given a reason for doing it in the first place

-This affects Stealth gameplay/focus farming method

-This screws over all newbs in stealth mastery rank missions

 

On 2019-11-22 at 2:16 PM, Tyanya said:

There has just been a comment from Rebb in stream --> "There is a problem with stealth at the moment and we are aware of it"

So yay. 😄

 

5 hours ago, NinjaDuckie said:

I used to do Adaro on Sedna as Loki for maximum Simaris standing. Sometimes you could hit your cap in a single go, with unalerted enemies dropping 200+ standing each time. Now it seems if I drop out of invisibility for more than one second, even if I'm standing in the #*!%ing ceiling, I'm instantly spotted by everyone and their grandmother.

A problem that's been ongoing for months at this point. I had noticed that you no longer get stealth multipliers from kills with silent weapons unless they're a bow or you're specifically using the 'stealth attack' prompt in melee... And even they're not guaranteed.

Even though Reb very recently acknowledged it in the Devstream, I'm still of the mind that DE had been quietly making changes to stealth mechanics in the background over the past year or so.  To see how much we would notice and gauge from this if Stealth gameplay is still wanted by the community.  

I've been hoping that Ivara Prime release would be the catalyst for definitive answers regarding Stealth Mechanics and it's future in Warframe.  To finally get some direct response to this in the Devstream is at least giving me some hope that the various issues will be finally addressed.  

[(PSN)Singularity-X1]

No, i have to disagree. I like the fact that they don't seem so ignorant/dumb now. I've been asking for smarter (or seemingly smarter) enemies for quite some time now. This is a good step.

[DatDarkOne]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Singularity-X1 said:

No, i have to disagree. I like the fact that they don't seem so ignorant/dumb now. I've been asking for smarter (or seemingly smarter) enemies for quite some time now. This is a good step.

That's all fine and dandy, but they have been doing so by taking away our options in stealth tactics.  Only leaving the cheesiest way possible as the only option.  There's smart/intelligent and then there is the omniscient enemies we have now that know everything all the time in all places.