Lich system opt in is not obvious unless you already know about the lich system

[(PSN)Esbald]

Up until the kuva lich, flickering lights means a boss is in the area. Without reading material outside the game, there is no way to know what the event is or that you can opt out of it or what it even entails to opt in. It just looks like you are being attacked by a zanuka or stalker-like thing, and there is a marker on whatever just spawned.

 

A system like this would benefit from being introduced to the player as a quest as opposed to randomly stumbling on it.

 

 

[JoJoshuee_DesK]

Bottom right on the lich screen for tutorial tab, for paracesis mods it's the same but the tab says tips.

You are welcome.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

28 minutes ago, JoJoshuee_DesK said:

Bottom right on the lich screen for tutorial tab, for paracesis mods it's the same but the tab says tips.

You are welcome.

That tutorial only shows up once you get a Lich. Now imagine a new player that is severely underpowered and has no idea of what Liches entail. Too late, the only way to opt out is by killing them. Which can be quite the ordeal for new players.

I agree with OP.

[JoJoshuee_DesK]

hace 34 minutos, (PS4)Hikuro-93 dijo:

Now imagine a new player that is severely underpowered and has no idea of what Liches entail.

Can a player who completes TWW be considered a new player?

I don't think so, unless all him experience comes from hours in hydron.

[Drachnyn]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb JoJoshuee_DesK:

Can a player who completes TWW be considered a new player?

I don't think so, unless all him experience comes from hours in hydron.

You unlock TWW with the sedna junction. At that point you are definitely a new player in my book.

[JoJoshuee_DesK]

hace 13 minutos, Drachnyn dijo:

You unlock TWW with the sedna junction. At that point you are definitely a new player in my book.

Not in my book bruh, not in my book.

[Drachnyn]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb JoJoshuee_DesK:

Not in my book bruh, not in my book.

Well we are getting into a very philosophical territory here but when does a player stop being a new player in your book?

[(PSN)Esbald]

A veteran player could’ve skipped a few updates or a player who started today surrounded by railjack news may find the system later down the line. The player’s veteran status in the game is not a factor in how the system is introduced. What I’m trying to say is that previous experience with the game does not prepare you for first contact with kuva liches. Enemy and mission design previous to your encounter with the larvling follows a number of design points that will have conditioned you to behave a certain way. These are:

1. When the lights flicker, a boss has spawned that wants to kill you

2. Messages from this boss will start appearing on screen, these are taunts and don’t reflect how you will play the stage.

3. When the “mercy” prompt pops up on an enemy it means “press button to remove what health is left and kill it”

4. If an enemy has an icon over it’s head, it means “kill it”

Because these rules are established and reinforced throughout the game, your only way to understand that things will not work this way is to have looked up information on the Kuva Lich system before you even knew it was a thing. So, the opt in system only works if you already knew about it and not if you are encountering it.

An in-game introduction of some form for the system and what rules it will follow is missing.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

1 hour ago, JoJoshuee_DesK said:

Can a player who completes TWW be considered a new player?

I don't think so, unless all him experience comes from hours in hydron.

Yes. Yes they can.

For someone who has been here from the beginning, a veteran, of course something like TWW took a long time. For new players, however, it only requires a few prior quests and a MR5. It doesn't take more than a few days to weeks to reach it depending on the player. And the game is so deep and diverse that it takes usually 1+ years for the average player to fully grasp it. And with every new content drop it just means that there's even more to catch up for new players. Lord Clem knows it took me 2 years after I returned to the game before I actually considered myself "knowledgeable" on the topic that is Warframe. I had no experience with other games like this one, though, as I was then pretty much exclusively a Story Game's guy.

I've been here for years, took me a long time to get my current level of knowledge, and I know how easy it is to overestimate a new player's ability to really understand the game. I see it daily here on the forums, in-game and other places. I know many players who have beaten all the quests and can technically do all the game has to offer, yet still don't have the necessary knowledge to tackle it and end up chewing more than they can handle. Which leads to their personal frustrations. Knowledge as in "how to properly mod", "damage types, status and crit", "lore questions", "hidden mechanics" which you don't know unless you read random hotfix from the update from eons ago, etc.

I'm not saying they shouldn't prepare, or that a player who has reached "technically" late game can't be knowledgeable. I'm just saying the likelihood of that happening is fairly low given how much there is to explore and how much the average joe avoids relying on third party information. This is specially true if players don't no-life the game.

Then again this is merely my opinion, and I do think many things in the game should be better explained. Obvious, major oversights, kind of things that aren't properly explained to the average player. And while it's difficult it's still up to DE to make sure this doesn't happen. And they know it, which why we do have a tips section nowadays. It's not a definitive fix or solution, but it is a step in the right direction.

Edited December 23, 2019 by (PS4)Hikuro-93

[JoJoshuee_DesK]

hace 45 minutos, Drachnyn dijo:

Well we are getting into a very philosophical territory here but when does a player stop being a new player in your book?

Probably over 50hrs

[HaxosawrusRex]

2 hours ago, JoJoshuee_DesK said:

Probably over 50hrs

50 hours is barely scratching the surface of the whole game.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

4 hours ago, JoJoshuee_DesK said:

Can a player who completes TWW be considered a new player?

I don't think so, unless all him experience comes from hours in hydron.

How are they supposed to learn that liches are a thing without first getting a Lich?

[JoJoshuee_DesK]

hace 1 hora, HaxosawrusRex dijo:

50 hours is barely scratching the surface of the whole game.

In my opinion, with 50 hours you aren't a veteran, but also you aren't new

hace 56 minutos, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 dijo:

How are they supposed to learn that liches are a thing without first getting a Lich?

Internet? 

[Puritan74]

@JoJoshuee_DesK It depends entirely on what you do with those 50 hrs, I believe the point being made and one I fully agree with is that it is very easy for a new player to bee-line the missions and complete the war within (as I did a few thousand hours back) without delving into the rest of this extremely diverse world of warframe and hence at 50 hrs barely begun to scratch the surface.

 

Perhaps a good answer to this would be a popup the first time you press x to kill a kuva larvling: something like "Warning, are you sure, this will mean a very tough enemy "Kuva Lich" is chasing you and stealing your materials gathered in missions (until you discover the correct parazon mods to kill him) yes/no"

Edited December 23, 2019 by Puritan74

[Thrymm]

This game has a time honored tradition of being absolutely asinine in terms of documentation, and an equal tradition in being remarkably obtuse.

When it comes to the kuva lich, it combines both into a majestic cluster of rediculousness that pays negative dividends for some time to come.  Heck, being around as long as I have, I DID read the documentation and look through the write ups created by the bungles of those that explored the system in the first hours.

This was not enough.  I STILL "accidentally" created a kuva lich that I was(and still am, actually) unable to readily dispose of.  I didn't exactly avoid getting one, but neither did I, at any time, actively try to get one either.  I couldn't begin to tell you which "X" I pushed somewhere in a mission that created it(pro tip:  the Kuva Lich is the only "X" in the game you might want to reconsider, all others are directly beneficial, including every other mercy kill you might get offered). 

If my best weapon was a single forma braton prime with a half finished serration(more than enough to finish the war within), I'd be in real trouble--this thing would be completely trashing my game.  The only reason he still exists for me is the remarkable level of RNG and grind in order to deal with him---I need two relic 3's and they both need to drop a mod, so far out of a few dozen requiem relics I've gotten one and it dropped a riven sliver. 

Even if a newer player could handle the lich itself, which isn't out of the question(they aren't all that deadly, outside of their arbitrary insta kill), the lich territory missions are no slouch.  Damage output far outpaces anything I take in sorties or level 100 kuva missions, and the kuva fortress requiem relic openings aren't exactly basic solar system level fare either.

For me, this is a nifty challenge that gives me a harder fight on tap, whenever I want it.  For newer players that aren't soloing eidelons and sorties, the ease of bungling into this difficulty would be very alarming indeed.

[Grahark]

Sometimes i feel that there has been an overreaction to the "Content Drought'  "Content Creators" in the game. Core systems , optimization and bug fixing would really help DE out right now. Anyone that will try to make a living out of internet review money will find themselves short someday. DE is going to do whatever the hell they want. The reviewers outnumber the creators. I would prefer to avoid a Season 8 fiasco. Support DE in the right areas and not the leeches in the wrong ones. 

[(PSN)Esbald]

10 hours ago, Thrymm said:

If my best weapon was a single forma braton prime with a half finished serration(more than enough to finish the war within), I'd be in real trouble--this thing would be completely trashing my game.

The War Within is an odd gate for liches. The quests necessary to beat them are over level 50, but The War Within is level 30 or so. This adds to why it would benefit from an introduction quest. You could make the quest content reflect the level of difficulty of lich content.

Edited December 24, 2019 by (PS4)Esbald
Clarity

[HaxosawrusRex]

18 hours ago, JoJoshuee_DesK said:

In my opinion, with 50 hours you aren't a veteran, but also you aren't new

I tend to disagree. There is still mountains of information that they can learn at 50 hours. If you barely know the game you are new. 

[Tsukinoki]

Fully agree here.
I've had to help a few new players who spawned a lich because the game said "Press X on this enemy!" without telling them what would happen when they pressed X....and they were completely and utterly unprepared and hard to be carried hard in order ot stand a chance to get rid of the lich.

At the moment they are afraid of doing higher level grineer missions just because they could accidently create another lich that would ruin their experience.
They need all the resources they can get and can't afford to have a lich stealing any of it.  At the same time they aren't kitted out to deal with high level grineer missions, they don't even have a maxed out serration as they have been leveling a lot of other important mods as well.

There needs to be something in game that tells them "Here's how to spawn a lich, and here are the consequences and benefits of doing so."
An introductory quest, documentation in the codex before you trigger the lich, and a warning the first time you create a lich.

Hek, they really just need to bump up the MR requirement as well by a ton.
MR5 is a joke.  Especially when you consider that the lowest MR weapon they drop is 13, meaning that even if they do beat a lich they'll have a weapon hanging out in their foundry until they do hit MR13.
IMO the lich should be locked behind a new quest and MR13 to better ensure that:
A) You're properly kitted for handling liches better
B) You can actually use the weapons that they drop.

[DrakeWurrum]

He makes a very salient point about the lich system as a whole....

It's thrown at us without explanation. There's no introductory quest. There's no manual. Once you stumble into a pile of dung, it's too late to know you were supposed to watch out for it.

2 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

There needs to be something in game that tells them "Here's how to spawn a lich, and here are the consequences and benefits of doing so."
An introductory quest, documentation in the codex before you trigger the lich, and a warning the first time you create a lich.

^this basically

I want to see a quest that's used to unlock it and explain the mechanics.

Since Riven Slivers require Palladino, maybe she can be the one that gives it - though then that means CoH is required before you can do liches, I'll take it.

It takes a certain level of skill and power to be able to handle the lich content anyways, especially if you rank them up to 5 without realizing what that means.

Edited December 25, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[HintOfMalice]

On 2019-12-23 at 5:41 PM, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

That tutorial only shows up once you get a Lich. Now imagine a new player that is severely underpowered and has no idea of what Liches entail. Too late, the only way to opt out is by killing them. Which can be quite the ordeal for new players.

I agree with OP.

Kuva Larvlings only show up after complete TWW and when you do a level 20+ Grineer mission. That is not a new player. If you choose not to engage them then they don't progress - which is information that is now available to them if they read the tutorial. A Stage 1 Lich covers only 1 planet and taxes a negligible amount of resources/credits. Leaving a Stage 1 Kuva Lich floating about before you're ready to deal with it isn't much of an ask at all.

[(PSN)Esbald]

Alright, so you finish the war within and are rank 5. It’s level 30 content and you have yet to unlock any node over level 35. You get a lich in a level 20 node and now as a person playing a game, you decide to engage this content. Or you engaged it by accident because you simply didn't know about it and mercy killed some random enemy you met with an icon on its head.

The missions that give you the void relics are 25-35 and very much within the level range you can tackle at this point. So, you go get them. This is assuming you went out of your way to find information on the kuva lich, otherwise you might decide to go kill him straight away and level him up.

Now depending on which path you took, you have to deal with a high level lich spread all over your system and possibly blocking your ability to progress, or you find out that opening the relics requires you to be able to tackle level 60-70 content in a planet you haven’t unlocked yet.

I’m not sure which part of the war within prepares or equips you to handle level 60+ content when the quest itself is like level 25 and doesn’t hand you any particularly powerful equipment. 

Edited December 25, 2019 by (PS4)Esbald

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

3 hours ago, HintOfMalice said:

Kuva Larvlings only show up after complete TWW and when you do a level 20+ Grineer mission. That is not a new player. If you choose not to engage them then they don't progress - which is information that is now available to them if they read the tutorial. A Stage 1 Lich covers only 1 planet and taxes a negligible amount of resources/credits. Leaving a Stage 1 Kuva Lich floating about before you're ready to deal with it isn't much of an ask at all.

Tell that to the players who fall into it. It's usually not that simple, and by the time they find out what it truly is about (when they hit a wall and actually turn to research) it's already too late.

As I said before, and I'll repeat, TWW is by far not a metric to measure how seasoned a player is. Maybe according to you, and that's your right and opinion, but to me and many others one is barely scratching the surface of the game if they only got to the end of the official story and little else. As a veteran, I can safely say there's a whole lot more to the game than the obvious progression markers - which makes about 30-40% of the actual game at best imho.

Edited December 25, 2019 by (PS4)Hikuro-93

[HintOfMalice]

19 hours ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

As I said before, and I'll repeat, TWW is by far not a metric to measure how seasoned a player is. Maybe according to you, and that's your right and opinion, but to me and many others one is barely scratching the surface of the game if they only got to the end of the official story and little else. As a veteran, I can safely say there's a whole lot more to the game than the obvious progression markers - which makes about 30-40% of the actual game at best imho.

Sure, completing TWW doesn't make you a seasoned veteran; you've still got a lot to learn. I'm sure they'll still need to learn how to optimise builds/synergise different frames and even synergising frames with weapons etc. However, after TWW they have been taught all of the basic mechanics that they will use for the rest of the game. I absolutely agree that it's only scratching the surface of the game, however they'll already have the essential mods ranked up (maybe not to max for some of the mods that a newer player might find costly - such as Serration - but to a level where they make a significant impact) and they'll have 1-2 frames that they're comfortable on.

 

Yes, none of that will teach you that the yellow lights mean you are eligible for a Larvling and to avoid them you need to stop killing as many enemies. And none of that will teach you what killing the Larvling will do. So, you could easily opt in without knowing you're opting in - as you said. However, as I said, having a Level 1 Lich floating about isn't much of an ordeal. And at that point a tutorial is available, so if they accidentally progress it further, that's on them. You could argue based on principle that players shouldn't be allowed to opt in when they don't understand what they're opting in for but I think it's really not a big deal here. A Level 1 Lich is a minor inconvenience. Even using the words "minor inconvenience" to describe a Level 1 Lich feels like a gross exaggeration. To me, it feels like the Level 1 Stage serves as the "opt in" buffer specifically for people who don't understand what they're getting into, because it gives them a chance to read the tutorial, understand what's happening and what they're being expected to do *before* they go in too deep and create a Level 5 Lich that is heavily taxing a significant amount of the system, surrounded by level 100 enemies that the player in question is wholly unequiped for.

 

And this idea of "involuntarily opting in" isn't new. When you kill any boss as a new player (other than Vor) you opt in to a Stalker mark. When you do Invasions you opt in to G3 or Harvester. For a new player, these can be incredibly frustrating - especially the latter two as they grant permanent negative effects for as long as the player is unable to build the Bolt Release/reclaim their gear. I think it's just part of the experience and it's a bit of fun. I don't see it as a bad thing.

Edited December 26, 2019 by HintOfMalice
grammar

[(PSN)Esbald]

You bring up the stalker and similar bosses, but these other bosses were not created to be “opt in”. So, they are working as intended. They are also within the level range the player can tackle when he gets them, don’t punish the player for winning and don’t require the player to access much higher level nodes in order to gather the materials mandatory to defeat them.