DO NOT remove self damage. It is a legitimate drawback and a niche some players welcome.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

1 hour ago, (PS4)deathwolfclaw666 said:

For me it's less about frames and self damage but more about risk/reward. 

They could always create an exilus mod that removes self damage among other mods.

Cautious Shot. Even when maxed out, it still won't prevent you from taking self damage, that's why band-aid mods like that are rightfully despised. What even is this illustrious reward from using explosive weapons? You don't get increased resource drops from enemies killed by explosive weapons, you don't increase mission RNG when wielding explosive weapons, you don't suddenly make Plat rain out of the sky when firing explosive weapons, there's no feasible advantage when less dangerous options are just as good if not better. Self damage was never utilized outside of a damage capacity to be "rewarding", even that's debatable because of power creep. At this rate, we might as well add self damage to certain Warframe AOE abilities just to prove the point that it adds no real benefit, that it leaves players at a clear disadvantage. Even that Justice syndicate proc should blow us up to smithereens just to please this odd crowd.

Edited March 1, 2020 by (PS4)IndianChiefJeff

[TheLexiConArtist]

13 hours ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

Cautious Shot. Even when maxed out, it still won't prevent you from taking self damage, that's why band-aid mods like that are rightfully despised. What even is this illustrious reward from using explosive weapons? You don't get increased resource drops from enemies killed by explosive weapons, you don't increase mission RNG when wielding explosive weapons, you don't suddenly make Plat rain out of the sky when firing explosive weapons, there's no feasible advantage when less dangerous options are just as good if not better. 

In addition to the issue of backlash for buffing them as previously mentioned (after all, how many people still complained that they simply could still kill themselves after Cautious Shot, both originally and with its buff?) there's another factor you have to consider when judging the viability of the 'reward' angle.

If the self-damage explosives were the de facto optimal damage outputters by a large margin, to 'justify' their self-damage, it would become an indirect obligation to use them when you do need to bring the Biggest Guns you have. Not unlike how snipers are the de facto tools for handling Eidolons, with only a couple of exceptions.

Since it's important that you're not forced to play around self-damage unless you want to do so, the reward can't be too much incentive by itself. This is partly why I suggested using a formula that would treat the problem of mismatched scaling between our health and damage output. Reducing the risk partially, after which the reward can also be bumped up as appropriate on the weapons that aren't currently in their rightful power grade.

 

It's kind of like Excavation is right now. You "can" play those missions without a defensive Warframe ability, but the drills are so fragile that you're tantamount forced to bring one along, unless you like losing every other drill because you happened to sneeze and let one enemy through. The reward (protectiveness) is so strong it overrides any personal disinclination.

[TheLexiConArtist]

2 minutes ago, Vharu said:

..Chroma Eidolon..

Chroma .. chroma .. Eidolon .. chrom,..

.. Chroma. ..Chroma ..

..Chroma ..

I don't even use Chroma unless I have a memetastic Arbitration buff for him. On the other hand, I use the Kulstar in the radius of my Frost's Snowglobe and don't put myself on my back with every shot, so... maybe I know what I'm talking about?

I see you're using the highest quality straw for that man you're building to argue against.

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

16 hours ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

Cautious Shot. Even when maxed out, it still won't prevent you from taking self damage, that's why band-aid mods like that are rightfully despised. What even is this illustrious reward from using explosive weapons? You don't get increased resource drops from enemies killed by explosive weapons, you don't increase mission RNG when wielding explosive weapons, you don't suddenly make Plat rain out of the sky when firing explosive weapons, there's no feasible advantage when less dangerous options are just as good if not better. Self damage was never utilized outside of a damage capacity to be "rewarding", even that's debatable because of power creep. At this rate, we might as well add self damage to certain Warframe AOE abilities just to prove the point that it adds no real benefit, that it leaves players at a clear disadvantage. Even that Justice syndicate proc should blow us up to smithereens just to please this odd crowd.

I was talking about an exilus mod for the weapons themselves and one that covers at 100% chance.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Just now, Vharu said:

Mate, it's ok to say you use Chroma and thats why you want self-damage to stay... you wouldnt be the first, and if you really want your protest to get traction, thats the crowd to appeal too for support. Maybe I know what you're talking about better than you do 🙂

I've individually used Nyx and Nyx Prime each more than I've used Chroma and his Prime combined.

Chroma Prime is my sixth least used Warframe. If you want to consider all the Eidolons I've run, I was Trinity, Harrow or Oberon pretty much throughout.

I forgot this even affected him at all, to be honest.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Just now, Vharu said:

Ok, so in a sentence... what is the single most significant reason you want self-damage to remain? And also, what is your alternative system attempting to provide?

Single most significant? I was around for the Tonkor meta and I don't wish for its return.

Alternative system? Give DE a flexible formula that can be tuned to better reflect the different scaling of player HP and player Output to make risks more appropriate.

(Additional note: Read the post just before yours which quotes my OP for why simply adding enormous rewards to justify the current risks could be a bad idea)

[BloodyEy3]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb Vharu:

Ok, so in a sentence... what is the single most significant reason you want self-damage to remain? And also, what is your alternative system attempting to provide?

did you even read the threads point ? he kinda gave an alternative systems and additional to that gave a formula with it and gave examples so everyone can easily see what which number presents and how it changes it the final value.

since DE implements fall off on explosives the only way to "improve" the formula is to add sth to the formula that represents additional "how far from center".  so that fall off dmg would factor in more for self dmg (we would need to know how drastic the fall of is).

I am personally all for diverstiy, and playing around negetive sideeffects. in a squad the game is already so much easier (aura, additional buffing/ debufdding warframe, 3 other possible targets for enemies to shoot,..), having explosive accidentally kill yourself cause ur squadmate jumped infront of you seems a rather minor downsight. On this note the same goes for abilities (frost ice globe, nyx asymiliate, mag magnetize, gare glass dome, kohra dome, limbo, zhepyhr tornado, vauban bastille/vortex,....).

Thats even more the reason why i am absolutly against removing niches/ snyergies with certain stuff. if the niche/interaction is  too broken (--> trinity self dmg map whipes with links) this should be addressed, but not through removing said intereaction. If someone wants to set up his whole build to open a new playstyle for sth he should be allowed too

So far the answeres ive seen that would work are:

• a) self dmg formula from op.
• b) keeping self dmg on (explosive mods --> bow+ throwing knife + boltor)
• c) and my selfprclaimed solution of giving "selfdmg" knockback chance to inflict self status effects

self dmg formula would keep the game the most as it is (just make it alot makes it harder to 1shot urself --> cautious shot still exists)

selfdmg only on explosive mods "just" helps chroma out. --> i think at this point allowing to "fuel" it into rhino, nezha, frost globe hp is not that bad (its barely dmg anyway), aswell as allow arcanes to trigger through self dmg (a win for everyone. anyone saying this is too strong automatically removes his right to be for removal of selfdmg.)

self status: --> head to previous page and read through it

 

 

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

10 minutes ago, BloodyEy3 said:

Thats even more the reason why i am absolutly against removing niches/ snyergies with certain stuff. if the niche/interaction is  too broken (--> trinity self dmg map whipes with links) this should be addressed, but not through removing said intereaction. If someone wants to set up his whole build to open a new playstyle for sth he should be allowed too

Although slightly tangential to the topic at hand, it should be observed that Trinity Link was not a 'self damage goes through Link' problem, it was a 'additively reaching 100% resistances' problem - which also applies to enemies, especially in sorties with modifiers and the never-stated fact that sortie gives Shield Ospreys the added bonus of increasing the resistance of linked targets.

If Trinities had to respect (and handle accumulating) some self-damage while playing a Link-reflective build, it should have been considered fair game. It's at least just as 'interactive' as Saryn is, at that point.

[(NSW)Kokojo]

On 2020-02-28 at 7:47 PM, TheLexiConArtist said:

Who forced you to suffer from it? What makes your gain of 10-or-so weapons, out of several hundred, more relevant than removing an entire gameplay niche from players who don't mind, or even enjoy it?

What makes YOUR gain of 10-or-so weapons, out of several hundred, more relevant than keeping an entire gameplay niche that was asked to be removed by a bigger part of the community?
The louder are the ones who get the chance, self-damage will be gone, Chroma is half-dead.
If we go by "keep niches because people play it", then the game won't move forward.

Imagine if DE kept the old elemental damage because some people had a niche with it. Imagine if DE kept the old parkour system because some people had a niche with it. Imagine if DE kept the weapons as the were before the balance pass becasue some people had a niche with it?
Asking for NOT to change because you and some other people find fun in it, not caring what the other part of the community want (aka the majority) is just selfish.

And if taht doesn't pleases you, well, just like you said, there are several hundred of weapons for you to choose, and it's not like Self-Damage removal will make the explosives unplayable at the end of the day (quite the opposite).

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

What makes YOUR gain of 10-or-so weapons, out of several hundred, more relevant than keeping an entire gameplay niche that was asked to be removed by a bigger part of the community?
The louder are the ones who get the chance, self-damage will be gone, Chroma is half-dead.
If we go by "keep niches because people play it", then the game won't move forward.

Imagine if DE kept the old elemental damage because some people had a niche with it. Imagine if DE kept the old parkour system because some people had a niche with it. Imagine if DE kept the weapons as the were before the balance pass becasue some people had a niche with it?
Asking for NOT to change because you and some other people find fun in it, not caring what the other part of the community want (aka the majority) is just selfish.

And if taht doesn't pleases you, well, just like you said, there are several hundred of weapons for you to choose, and it's not like Self-Damage removal will make the explosives unplayable at the end of the day (quite the opposite).

If this was supposed to be a clever rebuttal, it failed horribly.

We're not seeking to gain, we're seeking not to lose.

We're seeking not to lose the viability of all other weapons when self-damage is lost (Tonkor meta).

We're seeking not to lose out on a gameplay style that nobody is forced to engage with (unlike the core systems of Parkour and the entire Damage System).

And pretending the majority are either of our extremes is just foolish. It's not the majority who enjoy the dangerous gameplay for what it is, but it's definitely not the majority who absolutely insist on having access to that small portion of weapons without their core-design drawback factor either.

The silent majority are just the people who just don't use them if they don't feel like it, without demanding that the game has to change and remove a playstyle to suit their whims.

 

Should the person who doesn't like being a support frame insist on Trinity, Harrow, etc being just.. removed from the game? Or do they just tend to use the kind they prefer instead, and leave the supports for situations that call for them or players who enjoy them regardless? Because I'm fairly sure the player majority favours damage-type frames or tanks.

[(NSW)Kokojo]

1 minute ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

If this was supposed to be a clever rebuttal, it failed horribly.

It was not, sorry if it sounded like taht.

1 minute ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

We're not seeking to gain, we're seeking not to lose.

We're seeking not to lose the viability of all other weapons when self-damage is lost (Tonkor meta).

We're seeking not to lose out on a gameplay style that nobody is forced to engage with (unlike the core systems of Parkour and the entire Damage System)

 

Should the person who doesn't like being a support frame insist on Trinity, Harrow, etc being just.. removed from the game? Or do they just tend to use the kind they prefer instead, and leave the supports for situations that call for them or players who enjoy them regardless? Because I'm fairly sure the player majority favours damage-type frames or tanks.

Some peoplw don't play those weapons becasue they have self-damage, they don't want to have the trouble to slowdown their gameplay just to not get blow'd outside the map.
And if people are up for that, the other 3 on your public squad are not, and they will not wait for you.

"Oh but then just play solo"
What if I don't want to play solo and want to use my Zarr/Bramma?
"Oh then just gather up your friends"
You know exactly what I'm going to say here
 

I, for exaple, love the Zarr and the Bramma, however, I don't usually play any of those because I want to use whatever frame I feel like using while having the option for using those weapons just as efficient as, let's say, a shotgun. I don't want to stop, shoot, wait to explode (and pray that nobody or anybody's companion just teleports in front of me when I shoot) I just want walk and shoot and see corpses flying.

And how can you predict that Tonkor will become meta yet again after all those nerfs? Just because Shotgun changes?

People ARE forced to engage with that system if they want to use explosive weapons, just like they are forced to parkour, learn elemental damage and etc.
Using the argument "oh, there are many other weapons for you to choose" can go for you as well when Self-Damage get's removed.

 

15 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

And pretending the majority are either of our extremes is just foolish. It's not the majority who enjoy the dangerous gameplay for what it is, but it's definitely not the majority who absolutely insist on having access to that small portion of weapons without their core-design drawback factor either.

The silent majority are just the people who just don't use them if they don't feel like it, without demanding that the game has to change and remove a playstyle to suit their whims.

When I say the "majorty" I'm not saying extremes, I'm saying that "more people would like to see it removed than the people who doesn't".
Some pople don't like self-damage, so they don't play those weapons and just forgets about them, but they would play those weapons if it gets removed.
Some people like to play around self-damage, but they don't mind if it gets removed.
Some people are the oposite, maybe they just don't like how the weapons look but don't mind self-damage to be in.

Again, more people would like to see it removed than the people who doesn't.
And for the silent ones who likes self-damage but didn't do anything before the announcement of it's removal, again, the louder get's the chance.

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

Some peoplw don't play those weapons becasue they have self-damage, they don't want to have the trouble to slowdown their gameplay just to not get blow'd outside the map.
And if people are up for that, the other 3 on your public squad are not, and they will not wait for you.

"Oh but then just play solo"
What if I don't want to play solo and want to use my Zarr/Bramma?
"Oh then just gather up your friends"
You know exactly what I'm going to say here
 

I, for exaple, love the Zarr and the Bramma, however, I don't usually play any of those because I want to use whatever frame I feel like using while having the option for using those weapons just as efficient as, let's say, a shotgun. I don't want to stop, shoot, wait to explode (and pray that nobody or anybody's companion just teleports in front of me when I shoot) I just want walk and shoot and see corpses flying.

And how can you predict that Tonkor will become meta yet again after all those nerfs? Just because Shotgun changes?

People ARE forced to engage with that system if they want to use explosive weapons, just like they are forced to parkour, learn elemental damage and etc.
Using the argument "oh, there are many other weapons for you to choose" can go for you as well when Self-Damage get's removed.

You're kind of drawing the target around your bullet holes here, so to speak.

Nobody is forced to use explosives in any situation they don't wish to. If you don't wish to risk killing yourself at all? Don't use them at all. If you feel it slows you down too much for the current squad/objective.. you can just use something else. For when you do feel like using it, unless there's a particularly malignant Saryn or Mesa kicking around, you're probably going to be able to wield your weapon to some extent. Better you get with it, the better you can weave mobility with safe usage.

It doesn't have to be the Tonkor itself, that (and the Simulors) just happened to be the specific entities capable of oppressing the entire rest of the arsenal. Worse, it caused collateral damage to other things before DE had the courage to just hit the culprits directly; fixing auto-headshot behaviour effectively halved all other explosive and radial damage sources without compensation, at the time. Balance passes have happened since, but that's how it was for quite some time.

11 minutes ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

When I say the "majorty" I'm not saying extremes, I'm saying that "more people would like to see it removed than the people who doesn't".
Some pople don't like self-damage, so they don't play those weapons and just forgets about them, but they would play those weapons if it gets removed.
Some people like to play around self-damage, but they don't mind if it gets removed.
Some people are the oposite, maybe they just don't like how the weapons look but don't mind self-damage to be in.

Again, more people would like to see it removed than the people who doesn't.
And for the silent ones who likes self-damage but didn't do anything before the announcement of it's removal, again, the louder get's the chance.

Opportunism is not a desire to see them removed. As such, we can boil it down to only a few categories:

1) Militant anti-self-damage group who insist that it is removed to suit them

2) Personal dislike of self-damage but accept that there are alternatives available. Just don't use the few self-damage weapons.

3) Ambivalence/tolerance of self-damage. No strong opinion to the playstyle, would simply use them as any other weapon should they feel like it.

4) Active enjoyment of self-damage weaponry. Actively want to keep the status quo because its removal will completely prevent a 'thrill' niche they enjoy engaging into.

The majority are caught in 2 and 3. 1 and 4 are both minorities. 1 have been more vocal than 4 because the status quo allows 4 to have a niche 1 insists on removing.

Just because those in 2 personally dislike self-damage it is misrepresentative to say they want it removed. They would use the weapons afterwards, but they don't see it as a problem that there are currently a group of weapons they don't favour.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

@TheLexiConArtist I will miss it as well. It was the one thing that kept typical WF missions from being braindead. Misfiring is nowhere near as frustrating as being hosed down in animation lock, even if the latter will happen less often. Unfortunately, this is one of those situations where only one side of the argument is able or willing to understand both sides.

I agree with your feelings about self-damage only being lethal when the damage is meaningful. But honestly, explosives aren't even that dangerous anymore. You can't kill yourself with Tonkor unless you're trucking toward the grenade. Lenz gives you plenty of time to roll out. Nobody uses Penta without Tether/Napalm Grenades, so it's not dangerous at all. Zarr is the only self-damage weapon you can easily kill yourself with, but that's what the alt-fire is for. Everything else has such minor self-damage that it's not really a factor. I heard some complain about Zhuge Prime. I can't imagine how you could possibly suicide with that. Even Banshee can take several hits from it.

On 2020-02-28 at 9:26 PM, Tiltskillet said:

Think of it as an opportunity to push for Self Damage an opt-in mechanic. For instance, 

Reckless Shot: Weapons with Stagger gain +150% damage, +20% explosion radius.  Stagger now causes Self Damage.

Dude....... you're a hero. Quick, everyone upvote this man.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

2 hours ago, (PS4)deathwolfclaw666 said:

I was talking about an exilus mod for the weapons themselves and one that covers at 100% chance.

Cautious Shot IS an Exilus mod for weapons, but it caps at 99% instead of 100% for some gods-forsaken reason.

[BloodyEy3]

vor 18 Minuten schrieb (NSW)Kokojo:

"Oh but then just play solo"
What if I don't want to play solo and want to use my Zarr/Bramma?
"Oh then just gather up your friends"
You know exactly what I'm going to say here

why dont u want to play solo ? squad beign vastly more easy (aswell as it probably is often quicker in a squad then solo) ? giving more rewards (since more enemies spawn) or a chance for better rewards (relics?)

saying "i want to play in squad" but "i dont to play around squad" seems wrong. if you killurself just x (solo ud be dead anyway). if an ally kills u cause he jumps in front of you, you can ask for revive (which more often then not will he do without saying anyhting).

people getting furious over a slowa on defense are absolutly right to be. or a limbo trolling with max range. a loadout is warframe, primary, secondary and melee. if you have wrong mod confiq for ur warframe bringing slowa on defense noone forces you to press 4, so just dont use (or ask people beforhand if they are ok with it).

when u bring ur zarr on mission and you end up killing urself over and over and over again cause its vs infested or nullifieres then start useing primary or secondary. also you know what faction u are again before the mission starts. only time its "random" is so/eso

having to just minimal adapt to a situation is not wrong. It doesnt make the game worse. It doesnt stop the game from moving forward.

the Strong explosive weapons easily oneshot you through 70% dmg reduction + 99% dmg reduction cautious shot. That just shows how much dmg they deal. The changes they made atm are not even close to near enough to validate their strength.

aoe fall off (got rewarded with more dmg on center), stagger instead of selfdmg (which is reduced by distance + mod).

Why not remove the "negative" on corrupted mods aswell. While have niche interactions (slowa, speedva) or making full use of it since the - effect doesnt affect ability or is even wanted for ability (narrowminded on limbo cataclysm vs corpus) . Who the #*!% needs - accuercy. lets just make everything buff. all those corrupted mods are super niche, with minus effect removed it open ups alot more build and "viable" mods.

--> pretty sure everyones opinion for that is no !!

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

6 minutes ago, Vharu said:

This is not really a reason so much as it is a personal preference. There is clear evidence and reason why self-damage is causing problems with the Bramma - pop up spawns, other team mates, kavats, snow globes, cataclysm.... all these things can pop up in a players face with no warning and result in the death of the player. That is clear evidence and reason to remove it - while on the affirmative of keeping it, I asked for your most significant reason and all you have is a personal preference. 

You asked for one sentence, I figured from how you started in the thread you'd be happy to mock anything beyond that for the sake of explaining.

I don't have the Bramma myself, but like I've said. I can use a cluster-bomb thrower inside Snowglobe, so maybe it's just too new for people to have adequately mastered it (and people who won't wish to master it are inclined to try it out, as a new weapon).

The problem with the Tonkor Meta is not one of personal opinion. It was an overbearing and unhealthy time for the game where 98% of weapons were comparatively unusable  because the Tonkor and Simulor had all the benefits of damage and reliability with no drawbacks to offset them.

Since Warframe is a game designed wide, not tall, losing out on viable variety in this way was terrible. See the Catchmoon for a more recent event that is similar.

2 minutes ago, Vharu said:

'Better reflect the different scaling of player HP and output to make risks more appropriate' - well once again, this is your opinion that it is both 'better and appropriate' - just stating this does not make it so, you fail to say why it is better and why it is more appropriate with concrete examples. 

And just to put a nail in the coffin with your 'formula' - Does the factor 'D' reference the static damage value of the weapon in its stats, or the damage it does on enemies? In either case, both situations are flawed. Let me explain...

If the self-damage is scaled off the expected damage to enemies, then this results in much greater self-damage when fighting lower levels, and less self-damage when fighting high levels. If the self damage is scaled of the fixed weapon stats, then by your examples, 5000 damage is creating anywhere between 300-900 self-damage HP. The Kuva Bramma has over 20,000 damage with it's AoE, by all three examples in your formula it would result in killing the player regardless. 

I understand you are introducing a concept idea, but as a armchair mathematician who is taking the time to make such a formula, just go use the actual damage numbers that are available, and edit the examples to actually better represent this appropriate risk you are trying to convey. 

The formula must derive from the fixed weapon stats, which is what I'm guessing you are referencing with "D" - Bramma does about 15-25,000 cumulative damage. So work with that range and instead of over complicating it, all you really need to do is have a fixed % of the weapon damage stats that translates to self-damage, there is no need to add any diminishing variables at all, unless you want to consider a factor of intensity based on the proximity of the self-damage blast. 

Again, I was cutting it down to one sentence.

Player health doesn't mod to the same scale as player damage. Therefore, using a fixed a percentage of outgoing damage will always be scaled out of control (this is why Cautious Shot is such a ridiculous value and still had complaints that it failed to do the job).

Applying diminishing value allows the relationship to be more elastic, depending on how the diminishment scales. Hence, with a formula capable of being tweaked with easily identifiable variables, it is possible to find the elasticity that best befits the difference in scaling between the two.

D is Damage. It's the damage of the weapon. It's not difficult to figure that out. Your listed damage, crit multiplied accordingly.  Multi-shot could be a problem but is solvable as I have described elsewhere (ensure the self-damage formula is pre-baked, basing it on the total output then the result divided among the projectiles).

Whether the enemy has damage resistance is irrelevant.You're putting out D damage to overcome them and that's what the source of the risk to yourself is.

8 minutes ago, Vharu said:

Where is your evidence that "the majority are caught in 2 and 3, and 1 and 4 are minorities" ?

All you are doing is making up BS, saying it with some articulate confidence, and thats supposed to be accepted as factual?

How many people use self-damaging weapons among all the weapon choices in the game? - Reasonably you can assume within the wide variety of choice that self-damage weapons being used at all is a minority case situation. Yet you call it the "status quo". 

Applied logic.

Self-damage weapons are not highly popular, ergo 4 is no majority.

Invariably, some people will outright dislike self-damage (2) while some will have no strong opinions (3) - because we cannot apply false dichotomy. There are more than our strong opinions either way.

1 is a minority because there are simply too many players and not all of them can be this... Overzealous over something that doesn't necessarily affect them. I don't see millions upon millions of self-damage complaints.. just a vocal minority.

"Status quo" is nothing to do with any of these opinions. It is simply the state of facts. Self-damage exists and has existed, making it the status quo. Conversely, if self-damage had always been absent and we were trying to get it added all this time, group 4 would have had the reason to be more vocal than group 1 due to the inversion of status quo.

[(NSW)Kokojo]

3 minutes ago, BloodyEy3 said:

why dont u want to play solo ? squad beign vastly more easy (aswell as it probably is often quicker in a squad then solo) ? giving more rewards (since more enemies spawn) or a chance for better rewards (relics?)

saying "i want to play in squad" but "i dont to play around squad" seems wrong. if you killurself just x (solo ud be dead anyway). if an ally kills u cause he jumps in front of you, you can ask for revive (which more often then not will he do without saying anyhting).

people getting furious over a slowa on defense are absolutly right to be. or a limbo trolling with max range. a loadout is warframe, primary, secondary and melee. if you have wrong mod confiq for ur warframe bringing slowa on defense noone forces you to press 4, so just dont use (or ask people beforhand if they are ok with it).

when u bring ur zarr on mission and you end up killing urself over and over and over again cause its vs infested or nullifieres then start useing primary or secondary. also you know what faction u are again before the mission starts. only time its "random" is so/eso

having to just minimal adapt to a situation is not wrong. It doesnt make the game worse. It doesnt stop the game from moving forward.

the Strong explosive weapons easily oneshot you through 70% dmg reduction + 99% dmg reduction cautious shot. That just shows how much dmg they deal. The changes they made atm are not even close to near enough to validate their strength.

aoe fall off (got rewarded with more dmg on center), stagger instead of selfdmg (which is reduced by distance + mod).

Why not remove the "negative" on corrupted mods aswell. While have niche interactions (slowa, speedva) or making full use of it since the - effect doesnt affect ability or is even wanted for ability (narrowminded on limbo cataclysm vs corpus) . Who the #*!% needs - accuercy. lets just make everything buff. all those corrupted mods are super niche, with minus effect removed it open ups alot more build and "viable" mods.

--> pretty sure everyones opinion for that is no !!

 

I never said I didn't want to play around teh Squad. I said I wanted to play in a squad AND use a Explosive weapon AND feel usefull in doing so.
You don't know if people will revive you, you don't know their reaction if you have to ask, and if you are downed most of the time because:
- you keep shooting a enemy warps in front of you
- a nully bubble that just pop'd in
- anything friendly that just decided to show up right when you press the trigger
Then I better just hit abort.

I know I have a Meele and a Secondary ti use, but that's basically saying "You can equip the explosive weapon and just not use it in mission". If I'm equiping a Zarr  I want to use the Zarr AND feel useful at the same time. I don't want to get left behind or just shoot left over enemies that any Warframe with a weapon that can deal just as much or even greater damage than a explosive weapon can use and clean the map.

Corropted mods are like that, yes, but the negative is your own choice, a enemy just jumping from the floor up in your face doens't give you less accuracy, a cat that decided to jump into a enemy that happens to be close to you doesn't give you less Power Range, a teammate that is jumping everywhere and happens to jump right in front of you doesn't give you less Power Strengh, the door that closed right when you released the trigger doesn't give you more reload time. Self-Damage, on the other hand, can and will punish you for that and you are not really in control of those things, not in solo, even less in a squad.

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

31 minutes ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

Cautious Shot IS an Exilus mod for weapons, but it caps at 99% instead of 100% for some gods-forsaken reason.

Yes so buff it the 1%

[BloodyEy3]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Vharu:

The Fall off is 50% damage applied to the outer 50% of the AoE - that means the outer area is actually larger than the surface area of the inner 50%

but they gett overall 20% dmg buff, they also said they slightly increased the aoe overall (atleast in dev stream). so compared to now it deals 60% dmg on the max "fall off" area.

and depending on how the dmg fall off is coded it wouldnt even change the status dmg (which is quite substinental part with hm).

 

vor 18 Minuten schrieb Vharu:

Where is your evidence that "the majority are caught in 2 and 3, and 1 and 4 are minorities" ? DE made a decision already and I don't think such a change came from some majority that is impartial to it, rather a majority that wanted it gone.

wouldnt that be the common thing stemming from probablity (gauss-distribution) ?

 

[(NSW)Kokojo]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)deathwolfclaw666 said:

Yes so buff it the 1%

or... just remove self-damage

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

or... just remove self-damage

I gave my stance and I'll stand by it.

[(NSW)Kokojo]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)deathwolfclaw666 said:

I gave my stance and I'll stand by it.

That pretty much summons up all of this

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

3 minutes ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

That pretty much summons up all of this

I don't know what you're expecting. People to move to your side perhaps? The simple fact is that some people like a particular thing the way it is while others want a change. No use getting into a childish argument about it.

[Tyreaus]

Oh, splendid. We're going to have self-damage returned? I'll put my Lenz crafting on hold again...

FWIW, I feel like the knockdown concept works just as well. It has a similar effect in halting DPS output and a similar potential to injure the player (by proxy via enemies). That without it being a disproportionate instant-kill. Or, if one tweaked the formulae, without it being something that straddles one of about 18 different awkward lines. Maybe we make it not instant-kill everyone, only some, except the ubiquity of healing crafts a wide divide between the two categories—you can't heal through death. Maybe we make it so that the self-damage scales with efficacy against enemies (OP's risk-reward concept), but scaling content and power creep shrinks the game content they're useful in without being instant-kills as they are now. Those solutions aren't impossible, but they require a touch of extra headscratching on where to draw the line that has a pretty healthy potential to break down (e.g. randomly bouncing invisible projectile probably isn't a healthy state). The knockdown system, by contrast, is one variable: explosion radius. Not really any line to straddle on that.

They're also introducing shield gating, which—in terms of self-damage systems—is a bit of a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it would make self-damage much more survivable regardless of the numbers tied to it. On the other hand, that cap kind of negates a lot of the drawback meant to be associated with self-damage. They say that "When any shields are active, an incoming hit that depletes your last bit of Shields will not continue into your Health pool, and also triggers a brief time where your Health is protected." Which means you could probably drop a bomb at your feet on a semi-regular basis—not as consistently as if self-damage didn't exist at all, but relatively frequently—and just waddle along like it's nobody's business. The knockdown system bypasses that.

TL;DR: Knockdowns are easier to fuss out (based only on explosion radius) and aren't susceptible to player EHP system alterations (which could make certain self-damage values inconsequential and screw with the entire self-damage balance no matter the maths behind the screen).

[Cephalon_Baphoma]

Totally agree, most the people who want Self Damage gone never read your article though. Its sad whats happening to warframe.