The 27.2 revision update essentially obliterated a lot of niche/non-meta weapons

[Enxchiol]

This is an effect of 3 changes in the latest update, all of which's effects I'll cover individually:

1. The shotgun status calculation changes

2. The status proc changes

3. The AoE falloff addition

 

1. The shotgun status changes are, in principle, great. The problem is that the numerical status values are simply too small. For a lot of shotguns, their status output now is smaller than it was before. This is a straight-up nerf, which most of the weapons didn't even need. Not to mention that a big selling point of shotguns is their ability to pump out a lot of status, taking that away makes them lose their appeal. 

 

Former status shotguns, such as the Tigris and its variants, the Boar, the Strun and for some reason the Phantasma are a lot worse now. 

 

2. The status proc changes. The offenders here are namely Gas and Impact. Gas was changed to proc the Gas damage type instead of Toxin.

 

Due to this, Gas damage no longer bypasses enemy defenses, its damage is no longer enchanced by Toxin elemental mods and it benefits less from Bane mods. The Gas damage type itself has no meaningful damage bonus against faction health/armor/shield types except Infested, and Infested have Toxic Ancients, which grant an 80% resistance to Gas.

 

The Gas status is now completely useless, which really hurts single shot status-based weapons. Gas could be used on such weapons to deal damage, but now the other option left is Slash, which requires either a high Slash percentage(which will be cluttered with elementals anyway, as you need these to get the status chance up, and now that IPS damage has equal proc priority with elementals, this problem is amplified(some +IPS +status dual stat mods would be nice)) or a heavy investment into crit and Multishot to make use of Hunter Munitions, which is very inconsistent on single shot weapons. 

 

This change espescially hurts base Gas damage weapons, such as the Zakti and Cyanex. In addition to the Gas changes, these weapons also took the full blow of the AoE changes, gaining 90% radial damage falloff and self-stagger, even though they had no self-damage before. These weapons, which weren't even all that powerful before, have been completely gutted. 

 

The best fix for the Gas status I believe is to simply revert the changes it recieved, except for the duration change for consistensy, as the effect was perfectly fine before. 

 

The new Impact second tier proc knocks down an enemy. Most likely, when this happens, your next shot(s) will miss and any hope of headshots is gone(which is a direct damage loss). An Impact proc is essentially causing an evasion maneuver on an enemy, an inherently detrimental effect. My suggestion would be to simply incease the stun duration with stacking Impact procs.

 

Weapons with guaranteed Impact procs are now borderline unusable due to this, such as the Daikyu and Nagantaka. The Daikyu, as a single-shot status weapon benefitted from Gas, which too is gone now, making it an overall worse weapon. 

 

3. The AoE changes. This I believed is the worst outcome of the update, as it achieves literally the opposite of what it meant to. 

 

The only explosive weapon that warranted the falloff addition due to self-damage removal was the Kuva Bramma, due to the obscene everything it had(literally, it had no downsides but the self-damage and ammo economy). And yet the outcome of these changes is that every other explosive weapon but the Bramma has been rendered obsolete, as the Bramma does enough damage and has clusterbombs, so it too is useable as an AoE weapon, the rest of the explosive weapons are now basically single target weapons. For example weapons such as the Penta, Ogris, Zarr, Akarius, Tonkor and Komorex. 

Not only the explosive weapons got the change, but all AoE weapons, which had no self-damage, recieved the falloff and many of them the self-stagger, which is a direct nerf. Weapons affected include the Astilla, Ferrox, Javlok, Scourge, Staticor, Sonicor, Quanta and its variants, Kuva Chakkhurr, Simulor and its variants and possibly more. None of these weapons were exceedingly powerful before, and now they've been made even worse. The simple and easy solution here would have been to simply nerf the Bramma instead of adding the falloff range and adding self-stagger only on weapons that had self-damage before. 

 

I hope that changes will be made in the future to restore the balance and viability of many weapons. If you have more weapon examples affected by the chanhes, feel free to add them. 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Enxchiol

[maddragonmaster]

21 minutes ago, Enxchiol said:

The new Impact second tier proc knocks down an enemy. Most likely, when this happens, your next shot(s) will miss and any hope of headshots is gone(which is a direct damage loss). An Impact proc is essentially causing an evasion maneuver on an enemy, an inherently detrimental effect. My suggestion would be to simply incease the stun duration with stacking Impact procs.

there is no knock down upon second proc of impact quit your complaining. 

[Zelmen]

You know they made meta threads. 

 

[Lone_Dude]

1 hour ago, maddragonmaster said:

there is no knock down upon second proc of impact quit your complaining. 

1)Equip le GUN that has impact(Grakata, Strun Wraith, Daikyu, Kuva Kraken/Stubba, etc).
2)Acquire le STATUS
3)Acquire le MULTISHOT
4)Acquire le AMAZEMENT upon realizing that now your gun knocks enemies down whether you want it or not because we have stacking status and multishot exists.

Impact procs pile up fast and the only way to negate that is to either have "heat" on every weapon(and even then impact sometimes bypasses the panic animation) or fish for a #*!%ing -100% impact riven.

Quit being #*!%ing poorly informed, quit telling people to stop complaining when they have a damn good reason to do that.

[maddragonmaster]

4 minutes ago, Lone_Dude said:

1)Equip le GUN that has impact(Grakata, Strun Wraith, Daikyu, Kuva Kraken/Stubba, etc).
2)Acquire le STATUS
3)Acquire le MULTISHOT
4)Acquire le AMAZEMENT upon realizing that now your gun knocks enemies down whether you want it or not because we have stacking status and multishot exists.

Impact procs pile up fast and the only way to negate that is to either have "heat" on every weapon(and even then impact sometimes bypasses the panic animation) or fish for a #*!%ing -100% impact riven.

Quit being #*!%ing poorly informed, quit telling people to stop complaining when they have a damn good reason to do that.

DE has stated they where not going to have impact do ragdoll on the second proc. if there are weapons that still do that then they either still have some left over coding from that or it was left in as a intended feature of the said weapon.

[maddragonmaster]

17 minutes ago, Lone_Dude said:

1)Equip le GUN that has impact(Grakata, Strun Wraith, Daikyu, Kuva Kraken/Stubba, etc).
2)Acquire le STATUS
3)Acquire le MULTISHOT
4)Acquire le AMAZEMENT upon realizing that now your gun knocks enemies down whether you want it or not because we have stacking status and multishot exists.

Impact procs pile up fast and the only way to negate that is to either have "heat" on every weapon(and even then impact sometimes bypasses the panic animation) or fish for a #*!%ing -100% impact riven.

Quit being #*!%ing poorly informed, quit telling people to stop complaining when they have a damn good reason to do that.

i have been enjoying the game at my own dang pace for a while know enjoying the occasional corpse flying when i use a weapon that triggers it. not bothering people with it. i even play by myself most of the time so i can enjoy the game by my self. but here i am now having a harder time trying to enjoy it because things like blast is now reduced to a petty accuracy debuff because people where unhappy about the fact they can't shoot a sitting target till is gone. even when they could alway  avoid modding blast in.

[Lone_Dude]

1 hour ago, maddragonmaster said:

DE has stated they where not going to have impact do ragdoll on the second proc. if there are weapons that still do that then they either still have some left over coding from that or it was left in as a intended feature of the said weapon.

Oh boy, it would be awfully awkward if you didn't know the difference between ragdolls and knockdowns, wouldn't it? Being wrong twice in a row, yet having enough audacity to tell people to shut up. Sheesh, good thing people in that thread actually know what they're #*!%ing talking about.

As for that second bit, DE have this weird habit of not letting people with actual experience test anything. Or so it seems. I never liked blast on my weapons and only used it as additional CC on my Furax Wraith(Amalgam Body Count). DE could leave the blast as is, because people usually complained about it because we couldn't get enough status without getting a corrosive-blast combo(meaning forced elemental combo for shotguns, or you'd have to #*!%ing jump/cast every time you want to proc something OR you have to fish for a #*!%ing status riven), but now status mods are buffed and shotgun status is reworked so blast combo is easy to avoid. They changed it too late, for no reason whatsoever.

If it was up to me I would leave the blast as is, but change its animation to a different one, where mobs fall on their ass(basically sit down), leaving their head and torso exposed - you still gotta aim lower, but they don't move, don't attack and have their weakspot exposed. 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Lone_Dude

[Uhkretor]

Considering the following OP's points:

2 hours ago, Enxchiol said:

1. The shotgun status calculation changes

2. The status proc changes

1. My Tigris (the base one) is actually killing better. I don't know, hitting a given enemy and applying 15 Slash procs, 12 Heat procs and 5 Impact procs on a lvl140 Manic Bombard (for example) and killing it with 2 double-shots is something that I couldn't do before against the same enemy. And no, my Tigris build hasn't changed since... before U15... Now, before I go into point 2...

2 hours ago, Enxchiol said:

consistency

... I took the liberty of correcting it... Remember this word, people... Onto point 2...

 

2. Status proc changes... So the OP presents the point the following way.

2 hours ago, Enxchiol said:

2. The status proc changes. The offenders here are namely Gas and Impact. Gas was changed to proc the Gas damage type instead of Toxin.

I took the liberty, again, but to put some of it in bold letters... Remember the word back there? Ok then, lets start...

 

... I fail to see where Gas and Impact are the main offenders here for the following reasons:

- Impact isn't ragdolling anyone. Only weapons that are specifically meant to ragdoll are ragdolling. I should know, since I previously mentioned "5 Impact Procs" for a reason... Is Impact applying Knockdowns? I believe it is, but my targets don't actually live long enough to show it.

- Gas was never meant to apply Toxin. Whenever an enemy lands a Gas Proc on a player, the affected player asset (Warframe, Operator, Sentinel, Organic Pet, Crap'OAs (Yes, that "typo" was intended as it really describes them perfectly)) would get Gas Damage... However, if the roles were inverted, the enemy would get Toxin Damage from a Gas Proc and that was ok? No, that was as much of a bug as the "Hold <Melee Attack> for Charge/Heavy Attack" debacle. The fact that Gas Procs are dealing Gas Damage now instead of Toxin is to fix that bug and to either minimize or outright kill the previously associated exploits. For those that forgot about the magical word back there, let me put it here again...

2 hours ago, Enxchiol said:

consistency

Now, for the weapon examples that the OP used to describe the Gas Proc "offender" theory... I have no experience with Cyanex, but I have plenty with Zakti which was gained before the revision update. Only someone that hasn't actually used the weapon properly would think that Zakti is good... I can guarantee players get better performance with a Lato than a Zakti, and this coming from soneone that has already applied Forma 9 times on a Zakti and 0 times on a Lato.

Spoiler

Leveling a weapon in Sanctuary Onslaught/Elite Sanctuary Onslaught by having a nuker do the killing for you doesn't give you the experience you actually need to both know the nature of said weapon and talk about its affected efficiency whenever something in the game is changed that affects it

I take the effort of keeping in my inventory weapons that are actually effective and, despite the fact that I've already max ranked both of them on regular missions, neither Zakti or Lato are there.

[maddragonmaster]

15 minutes ago, Lone_Dude said:

Oh boy, it would be awfully awkward if you didn't know the difference between ragdolls and knockdowns, wouldn't it? Being wrong twice in a row, yet having enough audacity to tell people to shut up. Sheesh, good thing people in that thread actually know what they're #*!%ing talking about. 

its basically the same thing. the target turns crumples into a ragdoll form and falls to the ground.  whether it is there is hardly a difference to matter because the mob target still has to get up no matter the distance said target traveled. i am picking an argument because i am absolutely done with this crap because of something i liked doesn't happen anymore because a group of unsatisfied players will complain even when the target hardly moves from the same dang spot. if the target is knocked on the ground. aim downwards! its not that hard to aim down and fricking shoot the guy on the ground or wait for a second for the guy to get up even, its not like it takes hours or its such a game breaking bug. 

[SenorClipClop]

3 hours ago, Enxchiol said:

Former status shotguns, such as the Tigris and its variants [...] are a lot worse now.

If we isolate the Status calculation change on Shotguns (your Point #1), then it does appear as a nerf. We used to have a guaranteed 22ish procs, and now each shot rolls the dice for 0-22ish procs, averaging around 7 or 8. However, you need to look at the update as a whole, because if you consider:

1. Armor scaling was finally fixed, meaning Shotguns don't need to deliver so many procs to compete
2. We gained a lot of value in repeated procs of certain statuses (eg. re-proccing Viral isn't a waste of a proc anymore)
3. The huge buff to Shotgun Savvy allowing us to mod our Status chance higher without diluting the proc pool with elements we don't need

... the on-paper nerf to this one specific thing might not be an issue. We may just have an overall buff.

We may have fewer procs on pellet shooters, but what we have does a lot more now. Testing and looking at things practically, my Tigris Prime build (no Forma, Primed Point Blank not even fully ranked) will consistently "one-shot" Lvl. 160 Corrupted Bombards if I fire both barrels. It's Primed Point Blank, Hell's Chamber and Vig. Armaments, then Shotgun Savvy and the two 60/60s that make Viral; Tactical Pump for ease of use, then Sweeping Serration to lean proc likelihood toward Slash for more Bleeds. The thing is a powerhouse, and I haven't even invested in it beyond a potato.

[Lone_Dude]

38 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

its basically the same thing. the target turns crumples into a ragdoll form and falls to the ground.  whether it is there is hardly a difference to matter because the mob target still has to get up no matter the distance said target traveled.

Oh no, buddy. There is an animation for KNOCKDOWNS and it can be interrupted by a heat proc panic animation. Ragdoll is ragdoll - apply a little bit of force to the ragdolled enemy and it will fly away from you, thats why its total cancer. Meanwhile knockdowns are ASS, but at least you don't lose your enemy in some #*!%ing corner. Still, their weakspots are obstructed by their own body or are out of sight because said enemy is laying on the ground. So both are bad.

38 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

i am picking an argument because i am absolutely done with this crap because of something i liked doesn't happen anymore because a group of unsatisfied players will complain

You ain't even picking an argument. You're just telling people to shut up because no one is around to play on the tiniest violin for you. By that logic, you're a complainer as well, shut up and leave lmao. Couldn't care less about you because you also complain and in a far less educated way than sane people. Sounds nice, doesn't it?

You know why something you liked doesn't happen anymore? Because it sucked and everyone hated it. Congrats on having weird tastes, visit a local dumpster to pick up your half-eaten oreo "medal". But now we have to deal with that S#&amp;&#036; AGAIN because DE in their "galaxy-sized brain wisdom" decided that its a good idea to transfer one of the worst status effects onto the damn core damage type. Whoop-de-doo.

38 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

the target hardly moves from the same dang spot. if the target is knocked on the ground. aim downwards! its not that hard to aim down and fricking shoot the guy on the ground or wait for a second for the guy to get up even, its not like it takes hours or its such a game breaking bug. 

"just wayet teel eet gaets up onlee tayeks a cauple second" - you know how many seconds it would take me to kill an enemy if it didn't get knocked down? WAY LESS THAN A COUPLE SINCE I DONT HAVE TO WAIT FOR IT TO GET UP LMAO
"He just on ground just aim downwards" - aye, right at them legs, tasty damage multipliers in those legs, even better than, lets say, head. You do realize that when an enemy is knocked down it doesn't always fall down with its head towards you. Its weakspot is obstructed by its own body and said BODY takes WAY LESS #*!%ING DAMAGE.
Or what? Should I maybe run up to it and shoot it in the head while it's laying down? Sounds nice, but you know what I can also do then? Just #*!%ing melee it lmao. If I have to be that close to deal damage, might as well throw my damn gun away.

Warframe relies heavily on KPS. Corpus even have a shield-gating mechanic that relies on hitting their weakspots(which happen to be heads, for most humanoids, oh WOW). Every #*!%ing knockdown reduces said KPS. It's one thing when you get a choice to use it or not, another when its #*!%ing forced on you because impact is one of the core damage types present on majority of our weapons.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Lone_Dude

[maddragonmaster]

11 minutes ago, Lone_Dude said:

"just wayet teel eet gaets up onlee tayeks a cauple second" - you know how many seconds it would take me to kill an enemy if it didn't get knocked down? WAY LESS THAN A COUPLE SINCE I DONT HAVE TO WAIT FOR IT TO GET UP LMAO
"He just on ground just aim downwards" - aye, right at them legs, tasty damage multipliers in those legs, even better than, lets say, head. You do realize that when an enemy is knocked down it doesn't always fall down with its head towards you. Its weakspot is obstructed by its own body and said BODY takes WAY LESS #*!%ING DAMAGE.
Or what? Should I maybe run up to it and shoot it in the head while it's laying down? Sounds nice, but you know what I can also do then? Just #*!%ing melee it lmao. If I have to be that close to deal damage, might as well throw my damn gun away.

Warframe relies heavily on KPS. Corpus even have a shield-gating mechanic that relies on hitting their weakspots(which happen to be heads, for most humanoids, oh WOW). Every #*!%ing knockdown reduces said KPS. It's one thing when you get a choice to use it or not, another when its #*!%ing forced on you because impact is one of the core damage types present on majority of our weapons.

you do know you do not need to hit the head 100% of the time. you can kill a mob in relatively quick manner with out hitting the head the only enemies that need to have the said skill shot are the bosses are required to hit the weakspot. with the said build i have for my weapons mind  i could still go through a extermination mission by myself. if i was to be fully serious i could exterminate most of the mobs without hitting the weakspots. if it wasn't for the fact i am growing to hate being with other people more and more i could just join publics and contribute to the mission and not worry about the kill count because at the end the mission is done and over. and everyone gets their stuff no matter who has the highest kill count. 

[maddragonmaster]

anyways i said what i wanted to say. i'll leave you be.

[Lone_Dude]

Just now, maddragonmaster said:

you do know you do not need to hit the head 100% of the time. you can kill a mob in relatively quick manner with out hitting the head the only enemies that need to have the said skill shot are the bosses are required to hit the weakspot. with the said build i have for my weapons mind  i could still go through a extermination mission by myself. if i was to be fully serious i could exterminate most of the mobs without hitting the weakspots.

You do know you can hit the head 100% of the time and kill S#&amp;&#036; even faster. Thats the whole problem lmao. Why the #*!% is there a damage type that literally reduces my damage? Ain't it kinda ass-backwards?

2 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

if it wasn't for the fact i am growing to hate being with other people more and more i could just join publics and contribute to the mission and not worry about the kill count because at the end the mission is done and over. and everyone gets their stuff no matter who has the highest kill count. 

If you hate being with other people stop being around them or get some help. Attempting to start non-arguments on forums because toxic waste inside of you is bubbling is not a good idea and certainly won't help your pissy mood. Its a good thing if you enjoy it though lmao

7 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

anyways i said what i wanted to say. i'll leave you be.

Bye-bye, have a nice day!

[zuraja]

6 hours ago, maddragonmaster said:

DE has stated they where not going to have impact do ragdoll on the second proc.

DE has stated a lot of things.

[CopperBezel]

6 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

1. My Tigris (the base one) is actually killing better. I don't know, hitting a given enemy and applying 15 Slash procs, 12 Heat procs and 5 Impact procs on a lvl140 Manic Bombard (for example) and killing it with 2 double-shots is something that I couldn't do before against the same enemy. And no, my Tigris build hasn't changed since... before U15... Now, before I go into point 2...

For most shotguns it is an improvement. With the removal of funky shotgun status math and the assignment of the new status chances for each, the only weapons and builds that were nerfed were ones that previously showed 100% status chance. With a normal build, the regular Tigris's (actual, in practice) status chance should be more than double what it was. But shotgun status is now shown and modded per pellet, instead of the old calculation of "chance of at least one proc", which a) showed bigger numbers and b) followed a radical function curve with a sharp climb in per-pellet status chance in the last couple of percent. A shotgun that showed 100% status really was guaranteed-proccing on every pellet, but that was two or three times what a shotgun showing 99% was doing.

Edited March 7, 2020 by CopperBezel

[Scar.brother.help.me]

15 hours ago, Enxchiol said:

 

 

3. The AoE changes. This I believed is the worst outcome of the update, as it achieves literally the opposite of what it meant to. 

 

The only explosive weapon that warranted the falloff addition due to self-damage removal was the Kuva Bramma, due to the obscene everything it had(literally, it had no downsides but the self-damage and ammo economy). And yet the outcome of these changes is that every other explosive weapon but the Bramma has been rendered obsolete, as the Bramma does enough damage and has clusterbombs, so it too is useable as an AoE weapon, the rest of the explosive weapons are now basically single target weapons. For example weapons such as the Penta, Ogris, Zarr, Akarius, Tonkor and Komorex. 

Not only the explosive weapons got the change, but all AoE weapons, which had no self-damage, recieved the falloff and many of them the self-stagger, which is a direct nerf. Weapons affected include the Astilla, Ferrox, Javlok, Scourge, Staticor, Sonicor, Quanta and its variants, Kuva Chakkhurr, Simulor and its variants and possibly more. None of these weapons were exceedingly powerful before, and now they've been made even worse. The simple and easy solution here would have been to simply nerf the Bramma instead of adding the falloff range and adding self-stagger only on weapons that had self-damage before. 

I haven't tested shotguns and statuses much yet, but I had such hopes for Kuva Ogris after watching devstream, that this is the biggest dissapointment of the year for me.

Here how was it before the mainline update:
- 10m AOE range (Firestorm + Furax mods)
- Cautious Shot (-99% self-dmg)
- mediocre damage
It was really hard to kill myself playing frames like Wisp, so I could ignore self damage, since Kuva ogris wasn't really a big damage in the first place.  It was enough to kill Hydron enemies till about wave 15, Sortie 1, may be 2. Then it's damage was not enough. It was still a fun weapon for midgame.

After mainline:
- 11.36m Range (Firestorm + Furax)
- Stagger most of the time (which appeared to be extremely annoying and unfair for the damage the weapon does and aoe feels more than actual explosion like you are a paper frame on the wind, not a deadly space ninja)
- 80% fall off (which makes this mediocre damage into a joke damage but with a stagger like you shoot nuclear warheads)

 

In my opinion - stagger range should be MUUUUCH less than the explosion range - knock down if you catch an explosion with your face and only a little nock back/momentum loss partly without damn interruption on further distances. It should be punishing a little, but not annoying as hell. Or at least let Causious Shot work like that (-90% knockdown range).
Fall off damage should be AFTER the initial range. Lets say Kuva Ogris has 11.36m of full damage and 11.36 more meteres of fall off damage to 99%. (even so it will remain a mediocre aoe damage weapon as it was before the mainline)

Oh yeah, since the update it deals 4 times less slash procs since elemental mods now have an equal proc chance to IPS (which is a good start, but IPS needs improvements to make it good, like IPS+status mods and pay attantion how IPS damage is calculated for procs)

 

[Scar.brother.help.me]

5 minutes ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

 

 

In my opinion - stagger range should be MUUUUCH less than the explosion range - knock down if you catch an explosion with your face and only a little nock back/momentum loss partly without damn interruption on further distances. It should be punishing a little, but not annoying as hell. Or at least let Causious Shot work like that (-90% knockdown range).
Fall off damage should be AFTER the initial range. Lets say Kuva Ogris has 11.36m of full damage and 11.36 more meteres of fall off damage to 99%. (even so it will remain a mediocre aoe damage weapon as it was before the mainline)

 

Or buff the hell out of the Ogris damage like 3-5 times (crit can be 1% and crit dmg x1.1 if DE is afraid it can become OP) - then it will be a raw damage weapon and all the drawbacks can be as they are now.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Scar.brother.help.me

[Aryustailm]

Stagger was implemented because for most AoE weapons or most situations it is a significantly more debilitating and dangerous effect than self-damage ever was. Its primary risk was already mitigated in the same patch by gating. But they pretended the stagger was a buff and then declared that to compensate for the stagger, falloff was to be added.

Even the current "reduced from 90% for some but not all weapons" numbers are unacceptable. If a weapon whose various statistics and mechanics were balanced around dealing damage to an area around it now only deals a fraction of that damage for nothing in return, it cannot possibly be balanced.

I don't see Ember knocking herself to the ground when tossing fireballs or using Fire Blast.