Hema Research Cost Refund

[Steel_Rook]

1 hour ago, LSG501 said:

Not this again, I thought DE had made it clear that it wasn't going to be changed.... seriously if you haven't managed to research it by now you're doing something wrong in all honesty.

The "not this again" line of reasoning doesn't seem to be holding up very well of late. I've heard plenty of people "not this again" AoE self-damage, enemy armour scaling, shotgun Status and so on. Bad design is bad design. You can hide behind status quo up to a point, but you're kind of voiding your right to complain when it does inevitably end up getting reviewed and changed. DE make plenty of claims about not changing things and then change them anyway.

 

29 minutes ago, (XB1)ashes of suvius said:

seriously its not that bad. if all the people crying about mutagen samples would actually go farm mutagen samples, theyd all have hemas by now. we dont need 14 threads about it just because a new piece of research has mutagen samples in it.

Again, this has historically not held up. Anyone remember bait blueprints? Anyone remember HAVING to scavenge for Cetus Wisps? Or Cetus Wisps costing 10 000 Standing with the Quills each? Anyone remember pretty much anything to do with Railjack? DE seem to become more and more aware of just how harsh of a downside "grind" is in Warframe, especially in light of last year's polls, and they seem to be moving towards lessening pointless, unfun grinds. I don't expect to be refunded for the Hema - I didn't expect to be refunded for my Railjack, either. I would, however, expect a cool head to look at this absurdity and slash the research cost by at least a factor of 10. Because the current cost makes no sense.

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

3 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Again, this has historically not held up. Anyone remember bait blueprints? Anyone remember HAVING to scavenge for Cetus Wisps? Or Cetus Wisps costing 10 000 Standing with the Quills each? Anyone remember pretty much anything to do with Railjack? DE seem to become more and more aware of just how harsh of a downside "grind" is in Warframe, especially in light of last year's polls, and they seem to be moving towards lessening pointless, unfun grinds. I don't expect to be refunded for the Hema - I didn't expect to be refunded for my Railjack, either. I would, however, expect a cool head to look at this absurdity and slash the research cost by at least a factor of 10. Because the current cost makes no sense.

i would like u to carefully look at your examples, cuz all of them are about pushing newer content that has low player participation. the hema does not fall into that category. listen id like grind reduced and actual content, but i also pay close attention to how DE works as a business. they dont reduce grind where we want reduced grind, they reduce grind for things they want to hype. hema isnt a clickbait kotaku arcticle that brings in players, railjack is.

[DrivaMain]

Make Mutagen Samples a common resource drop or increase the drop chance to not be Argon Crystal or Orokin cells rare. There, players can research the hema passively without screwing the “MuH InVEsTmEnt” crowd.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

In b4 lock

[LSG501]

10 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

Again, this has historically not held up. Anyone remember bait blueprints? Anyone remember HAVING to scavenge for Cetus Wisps? Or Cetus Wisps costing 10 000 Standing with the Quills each? Anyone remember pretty much anything to do with Railjack? DE seem to become more and more aware of just how harsh of a downside "grind" is in Warframe, especially in light of last year's polls, and they seem to be moving towards lessening pointless, unfun grinds. I don't expect to be refunded for the Hema - I didn't expect to be refunded for my Railjack, either. I would, however, expect a cool head to look at this absurdity and slash the research cost by at least a factor of 10. Because the current cost makes no sense.

Everything you list there was changed to encourage player participation in the content... DE even said as much in the last devstream in relation to the recent railjack changes.

Funnily enough you seem to have deliberately avoided quoting my bit about how railjack was reduced to improve participation.. I'll copy it below:

Quote

Also the real reason for the railjack changes wasn't the cost, it was lack of players playing it and accessibility for the upcoming event, the lowering of cost was purely done to aid newbies who were not the original target of railjack.

 

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

3 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Everything you list there was changed to encourage player participation in the content... DE even said as much in the last devstream in relation to the recent railjack changes.

finally, someone else actually understands how DE functions. i like u. we should be friends.

he also purposely ignored the parts of my comment that contradict his argument. confirmation bias imo.

Edited March 6, 2020 by (XB1)ashes of suvius

[LSG501]

57 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Ok, so you're citing anecdotal evidence.  Looking at the game mode as a whole, if the cost isn't an issue... why is railjack so dead?

I take it you haven't played it much.... there is literally no variation in the game mode, you have essentially 3 different missions (4 if you include the sentient one) and all you're actually doing on said maps is grinding them to get better items to grind them again but with better weapons etc.... 

Not to mention I wouldn't exactly say DE giving their reasons why it got changed as anecdotal....

[(XBOX)Muttz v2]

8 minutes ago, Almagnus1 said:

Which is why threads like this one are all the more necessary.  The more that we consistently point out grinds that are ludicrous outliers, the more likely we are to get some of the more stupid grinds fixed because not everyone should suffer through DE stupidity if it can be helped.

 

At the time the hema was introduced there was a outcry about the grind. But within a few days clans had done the farm and unlocked the hema.

Steve went on the dev stream and said something along the lines of.. We messed up, bit too harsh... But out of respect for those who have farmed it it will be stayin as is.  

Tryin to get the hema changed is pointless. Using it as a example of how DE dont learn from there mistakes is valid.. But this thread isn't about cost of stuff in general, OP was askin why cant hema be changed if railjack was changed. The answer is because they ain't the same thing. By all means try and get DE to see sense about how stupid some grinds are, how the lack of rewards and RNG are soul destroying, use hema as a example of what not to do as Steve himself admitted.. But now, in 2020 the hema grind is historical, its the oddball, the exception that proves the rule. leave it as it is. If you cant be bothered getting it, then fair enough, dont.

[(XBOX)Muttz v2]

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Edited March 6, 2020 by (XB1)Muttz v2
Double post

[(XBOX)Muttz v2]

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Edited March 6, 2020 by (XB1)Muttz v2
Double post

[(XBOX)Muttz v2]

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Edited March 6, 2020 by (XB1)Muttz v2
Double post

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Muttz v2 said:

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quadruple post. lmao. u know in these here forums the normal thing to do is let someone respond before u repeat urself with the same argument, right? lmao. i kid, i kid.

[(XBOX)Muttz v2]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)ashes of suvius said:

quadruple post. lmao. u know in these here forums the normal thing to do is let someone respond before u repeat urself with the same argument, right? lmao. i kid, i kid.

Sorry was thinking about having to grind out all my arcanes again... And again... And again...

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Muttz v2 said:

Sorry was thinking about having to grind out all my arcanes again... And again... And again...

fair, but hey, at least u can get them in the event... which is probably why amps are stagger effing the operators trying to hunt eidolons.

[(XBOX)Muttz v2]

1 minute ago, (XB1)ashes of suvius said:

fair, but hey, at least u can get them in the event... which is probably why amps are stagger effing the operators trying to hunt eidolons.

I wont be doing the event. Im a solo player, i soloed the starchart, soloed eddys etc, built my railjack, realised it was a heap of bs to try and solo so walked away. Also i play this game to be ninja, not starship pilot. There are hundreds of better flight sim games out there that i'd rather play than the buggy mess DE calls content. If its game breaking for me i'll give all my stuff away and leave.

 

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)Muttz v2 said:

I wont be doing the event. Im a solo player, i soloed the starchart, soloed eddys etc, built my railjack, realised it was a heap of bs to try and solo so walked away. Also i play this game to be ninja, not starship pilot. There are hundreds of better flight sim games out there that i'd rather play than the buggy mess DE calls content. If its game breaking for me i'll give all my stuff away and leave.

good on ya, mate lol. i dont understand how solo players keep playing honestly. i take months long breaks to not completely hate the experience n the only thing that brings me back in is my clan.

[(XBOX)Muttz v2]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)ashes of suvius said:

good on ya, mate lol. i dont understand how solo players keep playing honestly. i take months long breaks to not completely hate the experience n the only thing that brings me back in is my clan.

I love the game.

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Muttz v2 said:

I love the game.

i love the games themes, potential, and several other factors. i often hate the execution and many missed opportunities, as well as the trend of dismantling unique gamemodes for generic ones. its kinda like one of those "im not mad, just disappointed" things. 

alot of it is that ive been here too long, seen too many promises from DE go unfulfilled, and seen too much of the potential i loved be squandered away.

but this is why i take breaks. im glad u love the game. i just wish i could too. i used to.

 

[(XBOX)Muttz v2]

1 minute ago, (XB1)ashes of suvius said:

i love the games themes, potential, and several other factors. i often hate the execution and many missed opportunities, as well as the trend of dismantling unique gamemodes for generic ones. its kinda like one of those "im not mad, just disappointed" things. 

alot of it is that ive been here too long, seen too many promises from DE go unfulfilled, and seen too much of the potential i loved be squandered away.

but this is why i take breaks. im glad u love the game. i just wish i could too. i used to.

 

Oh dont get me wrong, i realise its a badly made mix of random and badly thought out ideas, but i see that as the challange. in a PvE game its not player v the game, its player v the devs who wrote the game. Learning how to cheese the hell outta a boss fight is the chalange, not the boss its self. 

To be fair the game is a broken mess, and every time they fix something it just becomes a different kinda mess. No matter how they ballance it they miss something and working out how they messed up keeps me interested and giggling for days on end. I dont know another game like it, apart from maybe fo76 but that games too broken even for me. 

[SPplayer76]

Yes, this research cost should be changed. These people coming out of the woodwork to defend it are out of their minds. A solo clan is still asked for 5k, and hiding behind this idealistic perfectly active "everyone contributes" clan example is laughable. People using that as defense need to stop looking at the cost "on paper" and open their eyes to the reality of the situation.

[(XBOX)Muttz v2]

30 minutes ago, SPplayer76 said:

Yes, this research cost should be changed. These people coming out of the woodwork to defend it are out of their minds. A solo clan is still asked for 5k, and hiding behind this idealistic perfectly active "everyone contributes" clan example is laughable. People using that as defense need to stop looking at the cost "on paper" and open their eyes to the reality of the situation.

Im quite sure the cost of the hema for solo clan was 3500 so i guess 5k are for the restores?

I didnt come out of the woodwork to defend the restore cost. If im wrong and its 5k for the hema, im not defending that either, im just sayin thats what it is, so get over it. Thousands of other people have.

[Almagnus1]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Muttz v2 said:

Im quite sure the cost of the hema for solo clan was 3500 so i guess 5k are for the restores?

I didnt come out of the woodwork to defend the restore cost. If im wrong and its 5k for the hema, im not defending that either, im just sayin thats what it is, so get over it. Thousands of other people have.

It says 5k ingame for my clan with only me in it.

But what your saying makes about as much sense as saying "I spent some time on the rack, so you should too".  5k mutagen samples (especially at the current sample drop rate WITH all the looting stuff) is going to be (at best) around 200-300 samples for an Octavia farming mission in for about a 40 mnin ODS (IIRC).    For a solo player... that's a very huge time investment, especially considering that the samples aren't available in the market - so you can't plat your way out of this.

Also, saying "it is what it is so accept it" clearly isn't a good way to deal with pain points in a game, especially since Warframe is bleeding players (we're down to about a third of our MAU going by steam charts since Fortuna launched - which was our peak MAU).

[Zsword]

It's definitely 5k for solo/ghost.

It's also an absurd level of grind for a very uncommon drop that you pretty much have to spend resources to go farm. (OD missions aren't free, ya know.)

I see people arguing the railjack resource change was because the railjack gates content, and the hema's research cost gates content as well. Said content is 'the Hema'. Just like how railjack gates 3 weapons and some internal stuff behind its grind. It's going to get REALLY bad when they add new stuff that requires Hema Researched to research, because the tech tree can do that. It's future proofing to get out of the way harmlessly now instead of sitting on for making people upset over when it affects more than 1 thing.

[SPplayer76]

Just now, Zsword said:

It's definitely 5k for solo/ghost.

It's also an absurd level of grind for a very uncommon drop that you pretty much have to spend resources to go farm. (OD missions aren't free, ya know.)

I see people arguing the railjack resource change was because the railjack gates content, and the hema's research cost gates content as well. Said content is 'the Hema'. Just like how railjack gates 3 weapons and some internal stuff behind its grind. It's going to get REALLY bad when they add new stuff that requires Hema Researched to research, because the tech tree can do that. It's future proofing to get out of the way harmlessly now instead of sitting on for making people upset over when it affects more than 1 thing.

I think one thing to realize is that there is no matchmaking for the derelict. It plays a bigger part in this problem than people may realize, it puts this farm in particular on an island.

[Steel_Rook]

3 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Funnily enough you seem to have deliberately avoided quoting my bit about how railjack was reduced to improve participation.. I'll copy it below:

I avoided it because I don't consider it relevant. Yes, the Railjack change was done with the express purpose of boosting Railjack participation. I don't recall the same argument being made for bait blueprints, however. If I recall correctly, the argument around those was simplifying the system and culling needless grind. The same goes for moving from crafted Arcanes to purchased Arcanes. I don't recall there being an issue with player adoption of Operator Arcanes, nor do I remember claims that more players needed to engage with them, for whatever reason. I don't recall anything of the sort for Cetus Wisps, either.

My point here is that just because this has been discussed before and DE have shot it down doesn't mean it's not up for debate. Especially these days when long-held "traditions" are being challenged by fairly ambitions balance changes, I don't think bringing up Hema is out of turn.

 

3 hours ago, (XB1)ashes of suvius said:

i would like u to carefully look at your examples, cuz all of them are about pushing newer content that has low player participation. the hema does not fall into that category. listen id like grind reduced and actual content, but i also pay close attention to how DE works as a business. they dont reduce grind where we want reduced grind, they reduce grind for things they want to hype. hema isnt a clickbait kotaku arcticle that brings in players, railjack is.

Again, all of them? So reducing the cost of Cetus Wisps a year after Cetus and the Plains were introduced is "pushing newer content?" Reducing the grind for fish bait over two years after fishing was introduced was "pushing newer content?" What about reducing the crafting costs for Apothics at some point last year? What about increasing the drop rates for Juggernauts last year, and then just the other day for Pheraldic Pods blueprints to 90%? What about the current increase in reward drops from regular missions by scrapping the lower-amount versions of basic resource rewards? Hell, what about reducing the grind for Harrow by pushing his pieces to Rotation B of Defection in addition to Rotation C? I mean, if you believe that all of these things count as "pushing newer content," then your definition of "newer content" itself could easily cover the Hema.

More to the point, I have multiple examples of DE reducing grind because players asked them to reduce grind, DE looked at it and agreed. Their stated goal for 2020 was, in fact, to reduce the grind - they said as much on one of the recent Dev Streams, though possibly not in these exact words. I'm not expecting charity, but I'm equally not expecting a stone wall of stubborn refusal to enact changes because the people working at DE are not cultists. They can be reasoned with - as we saw with self-damage.

If you're going to accuse me of omitting parts of your post then fine. But try to actually address my examples rather than offering a blanket statement about why they don't count, if you want the same regard in return.