Wisp is unbalanced i think

[selig_fay]

2 hours ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

What about addresing the energy cost? 25 Energy to heal 30 hp/s (with free bonus 300 max hp). Oberon can heal 40hp/s with 25 energy (and an initial heal of 125h) to keep on healing one ally 5 energy is drained per second (2 ability upkeep and 3 per ally below maximum health), where as Wisp's vitality mote can keep on without ever requiring any additional energy.

There is one caveat here. Oberon can make 1 cast on all his allies and keep this buff throughout the mission without having to track the radius to his allies, because the radius does not affect Oberon's buff, as it will hold as long as Oberon holds the ability. Wisp buffs have a duration. Yes, you can actually maintain all 3 buffs indefinitely until the end of the mission, but only if you are in the same zone. If you move, your buff ends and you need to cast the ability again.

I'm not saying that Oberon is balanced, because it does need some reduction or a fixed value of energy drain. But, let's consider all aspects of abilities, not just one option in a vacuum where you stand 100 waves of defense.

[taiiat]

10 hours ago, ScytodiDaedalus said:

What about addresing the energy cost? 25 Energy to heal 30 hp/s (with free bonus 300 max hp). Oberon can heal 40hp/s with 25 energy (and an initial heal of 125h) to keep on healing one ally 5 energy is drained per second (2 ability upkeep and 3 per ally below maximum health), where as Wisp's vitality mote can keep on without ever requiring any additional energy.

it requires Energy periodically when you need to move your 'base' since in many Mission Types you move around.
but Oberon running out of Energy? since when. almost never. Energy on Health Damage is already essentially infinite Energy even with bad Efficiency. one Mod to remove Energy from the game most of the time, for Oberon.

besides, Renewal has actually infinite Duration, instead of only theoretically infinite if you never have to leave your 'base' behind. and IIRC receivers of the benefit even retain it when entering a Nullifier Bubble, and only lose if Oberon gets Nullified? don't quote me on that last one though.
and Renewal offers a pretty significant EHP Bonus - it has plenty of features of its own.

Edited May 15, 2020 by taiiat

[BRZZAFK]

14小时前 , zhellon 说:

There is one caveat here. Oberon can make 1 cast on all his allies and keep this buff throughout the mission without having to track the radius to his allies, because the radius does not affect Oberon's buff, as it will hold as long as Oberon holds the ability. Wisp buffs have a duration. Yes, you can actually maintain all 3 buffs indefinitely until the end of the mission, but only if you are in the same zone. If you move, your buff ends and you need to cast the ability again.

I'm not saying that Oberon is balanced, because it does need some reduction or a fixed value of energy drain. But, let's consider all aspects of abilities, not just one option in a vacuum where you stand 100 waves of defense.

I will totally trade Oberon's 3 just for wisp healing which is only one-third of her 1st.   

[kwlingo]

16 hours ago, Hixlysss said:

Wisp isn't unbalanced, that's not why you're seeing people play her. You're seeing people play her because she is the most balanced, a true jack of all trades and satisfying to use. 

Honestly why is she the only frame that is allowed to have an infinite duration on ability, her motes. Just imagine other frames like Trinity having infinite energy/ health on the enemies casted apon or Harrow infinite red crits and health and damage reduction per one cast? As you can see his is what makes Wisp so OP compared to the rest who are support frames. To balance her out she needs a duration on her mote's. Just this alone will bring her kit down to the rest of the support frames. DE tries so hard to balance everything but then they make others so OP compared to the rest.

Edited May 15, 2020 by kwlingo

[kwlingo]

On 2020-05-09 at 3:37 PM, Travis05 said:

Kinda like kuva brama i guess.

Wait for the nerf my friend. lol

[kwlingo]

On 2020-05-09 at 3:37 PM, Travis05 said:

Kinda like kuva brama i guess.

Wait for the nerf my friend. lol

[kwlingo]

On 2020-05-09 at 3:37 PM, Travis05 said:

Kinda like kuva brama i guess.

Wait for the nerf my friend. lol

[Kamachi]

Wisp is a well designed Frame and should be left alone. Other frames should be reworked to have a good overall design as Wisp does and newer frames should learn from the design of Wisp. Nerfing Wisp is not a solution and will just add to the already ever growing problem of many frames being subpar. 

[selig_fay]

2 hours ago, BRZZAFK said:

I will totally trade Oberon's 3 just for wisp healing which is only one-third of her 1st.

In vain. Oberon 3 is quite convenient. The only thing that is bad for Oberon is its 4, because 2 is a much more powerful CC, and 1 is more powerful damage. Ah and passive ability to, which on fact there is no.

[Teridax68]

While Wisp can certainly output a lot of damage, I don't think she's really unbalanced, so much as good at everything. Her Reservoirs alone give her damage, durability, CC, and utility, which everyone can benefit from, and thus easily overshadow an otherwise pretty decent kit, which is why it's not uncommon to see not only lots of Wisps, but lots of Wisps using nothing but her 1. Perhaps I'd trim down her Reservoirs to just one with a more condensed version of all her buffs, but otherwise I'd say she doesn't need particularly drastic changes at the moment.

[selig_fay]

11 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Perhaps I'd trim down her Reservoirs to just one with a more condensed version of all her buffs, but otherwise I'd say she doesn't need particularly drastic changes at the moment.

Please don't do this. Or just provide an augment for this. I would not want to lose the mechanics by which we need to choose. 

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

On 2020-05-09 at 4:47 PM, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

Y-yeah... of course the reservoir is unfair... to enemies...

hides 35k damage Arca Plasmor 

Hides 70k exergis, mesa, sayrn

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, zhellon said:

Please don't do this. Or just provide an augment for this. I would not want to lose the mechanics by which we need to choose. 

Why not do the reverse, i.e. baseline has one reservoir, augment offers more? Part of the problem with the 1 right now isn't just that it's overloaded, but that it's pretty clunky due to having her halt herself when her passive and 2 encourage her to parkour around. That, and there's usually not really much choice involved, since when Wisp can lay down one of her reservoirs, she'll usually lay down all three.

[selig_fay]

2 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

Why not do the reverse, i.e. baseline has one reservoir, augment offers more? Part of the problem with the 1 right now isn't just that it's overloaded, but that it's pretty clunky due to having her halt herself when her passive and 2 encourage her to parkour around. That, and there's usually not really much choice involved, since when Wisp can lay down one of her reservoirs, she'll usually lay down all three.

Because now the system is fine and this is only a problem in the minds of people who can't handle the wheel. As if, people suggest changing the wheel system, I have nothing against it. Like a window system where you press a sequence of keys for 0.5 seconds, like 1-1, 1-2, 1-3.

But personally I have no problems for two reasons:

1) I can cast all three buffs in 3 seconds.

2) I don't use buffs when I don't need them.

For example, speed is important on most fast missions. Everything else can be omitted, because shieldgate is a thing and your weapon controls your enemies. The same can be said about Defection, you only need speed to arrange them for escorted mobs, because now you can do it. While an electric and healing buff is not required, just try it.

For missions where the team should be distributed by points, you just choose what the team needs, as for intercepting the electric buff, and you put them on the point, and the rest of the buffs in the middle of the map. In Infested Salvage, you have 3 points and only set healing and speed, because you don't need an electric buff, as it slows down enemies. 

The electric buff is largely situational, because on missions where it's important to kill mobs, you don't want them to be stunned somewhere behind a wall, instead of going into your meat grinder. Yes, this is useful for protecting defense target, but if the mobs can't kill it anyway, you just slow down the mission with this buff.

It's just that positioning on the map and making the right choice are important right now.1 reservoir doesn't look either fun or effective. It just provides convenience for people who are concerned about the mechanics of the wheel and breaks the gameplay of other people. This is the same as the person suggested leaving 2 reservoirs with all buffs instead of 6 with 1 buff. I can see that this makes the kit less flexible and more boring.

In fact, everything you want from reservoir is in Valkyr 2.

[Teridax68]

3 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Because now the system is fine and this is only a problem in the minds of people who can't handle the wheel. 

"People who disagree with me are automatically wrong, no matter their perspective" isn't exactly a great mentality with which to approach disagreement.

3 minutes ago, zhellon said:

But personally I have no problems for two reasons:

1) I can cast all three buffs in 3 seconds.

2) I don't use buffs when I don't need them.

Standing around for 3 seconds at a time is a pretty long amount of time in Warframe, and when one does choose to lay down a buff, at that point there's no reason not to lay down the other two along with it. When you've already chosen to interrupt your movement and stay around, there isn't really a significant cost to laying down more reservoirs besides a piddling 25 Energy, hence why you will almost invariably see Reservoirs in pods of three.

[selig_fay]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

Standing around for 3 seconds at a time is a pretty long amount of time in Warframe, and when one does choose to lay down a buff, at that point there's no reason not to lay down the other two along with it. When you've already chosen to interrupt your movement and stay around, there isn't really a significant cost to laying down more reservoirs besides a piddling 25 Energy, hence why you will almost invariably see Reservoirs in pods of three.

As I wrote above, on fast missions I use one and it doesn't even interrupt my movement due to the aim glide. In all other missions, I almost always spend a little time making the map enjoyable for me and my allies, and this will no longer require me to stop until the end of the mission. The exception is the excavation and mobile defense, but three seconds is almost nothing against the background of the fact that you need to stand for another 2 minutes in one place.

[Teridax68]

Just now, zhellon said:

As I wrote above, on fast missions I use one and it doesn't even interrupt my movement due to the aim glide. In all other missions, I almost always spend a little time making the map enjoyable for me and my allies, and this will no longer require me to stop until the end of the mission. The exception is the excavation and mobile defense, but three seconds is almost nothing against the background of the fact that you need to stand for another 2 minutes in one place.

You are not the only player in this game, and other players almost certainly have different experiences from you, as this thread should indicate.

[selig_fay]

21 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

You are not the only player in this game, and other players almost certainly have different experiences from you, as this thread should indicate.

This also works the other way around. I'm just saying that the current system has its advantages. On the other hand, if you want to make it easier, then let it be an augment with providing all buffs without reducing their strength, but with reducing the number of reservoirs. This is what you want, because in fact, you lose the strength slot, which makes your buffs weaker than in a normal build. My guess is that you still wanted to reduce the number of reserves, so this particular augment situation is more profitable for both sides, rather than a turnover where the other side has to suffer just because you don't want to lose the slot.

Although, maybe it will work in the opposite direction, if I can keep the current buff strength of my build.

Edited May 15, 2020 by zhellon

[Teridax68]

25 minutes ago, zhellon said:

This also works the other way around.

This would make sense if I had dismissed your own experience, which I haven't. I am merely pointing out that you are relying on your own personal experience to the exclusion of all others, dismissing disagreement as automatically invalid and conspicuously ignoring accounts of other players that differ from yours.

25 minutes ago, zhellon said:

I'm just saying that the current system has its advantages. On the other hand, if you want to make it easier, then let it be an augment with providing all buffs without reducing their strength, but with reducing the number of reservoirs. This is what you want, because in fact, you lose the strength slot, which makes your buffs weaker than in a normal build. My guess is that you still wanted to reduce the number of reserves, so this particular augment situation is more profitable for both sides, rather than a turnover where the other side has to suffer just because you don't want to lose the slot.

Although, maybe it will work in the opposite direction, if I can keep the current buff strength of my build.

This implicitly suggests you want any potential change to be an augment simply because you don't want it to be your problem, which goes back to the above. Sure, the current system has the advantage of offering a massive amount of powerful buffs for very cheap on a single ability, but at a cost in quality of life and smoothness. You've argued so far why you don't have an issue with the current implementation, but haven't really explained why you think separating the buffs into different motes is good.

[selig_fay]

6 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

This implicitly suggests you want any potential change to be an augment simply because you don't want it to be your problem, which goes back to the above. Sure, the current system has the advantage of offering a massive amount of powerful buffs for very cheap on a single ability, but at a cost in quality of life and smoothness. You've argued so far why you don't have an issue with the current implementation, but haven't really explained why you think separating the buffs into different motes is good.

Did this text go unnoticed?

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

For example, speed is important on most fast missions. Everything else can be omitted, because shieldgate is a thing and your weapon controls your enemies. The same can be said about Defection, you only need speed to arrange them for escorted mobs, because now you can do it. While an electric and healing buff is not required, just try it.

For missions where the team should be distributed by points, you just choose what the team needs, as for intercepting the electric buff, and you put them on the point, and the rest of the buffs in the middle of the map. In Infested Salvage, you have 3 points and only set healing and speed, because you don't need an electric buff, as it slows down enemies. 

The electric buff is largely situational, because on missions where it's important to kill mobs, you don't want them to be stunned somewhere behind a wall, instead of going into your meat grinder. Yes, this is useful for protecting defense target, but if the mobs can't kill it anyway, you just slow down the mission with this buff.

I can add that some people don't want to see the speed buff on themselves, but don't mind using everything else. One time a person directly asked me to split buffs so he could ignore the speed and I did it for him. Yes, you can say that this person is mad, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion, right? This is why we can deny from the Volt speed with the back roll.

[kwlingo]

Wisp reminds me of the pre-rework Hildryn Decaying Dragon Key build, immortality. You can go afk till level 200 with max power strength health mote. Which star chart missions don't even come close to, only endurance runs.

[Teridax68]

30 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Did this text go unnoticed?

Did this text go unnoticed?

42 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

You've argued so far why you don't have an issue with the current implementation, but haven't really explained why you think separating the buffs into different motes is good.

You've argued that the player may not necessarily need one or the other buff expressly for a situation, but that in itself does not justify separating a buff into three versions, as a single buff with all of the effects would in this respect be purely beneficial. There's no real argument here for why it would be bad to condense those buffs.

30 minutes ago, zhellon said:

I can add that some people don't want to see the speed buff on themselves, but don't mind using everything else. One time a person directly asked me to split buffs so he could ignore the speed and I did it for him. Yes, you can say that this person is mad, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion, right? This is why we can deny from the Volt speed with the back roll.

The problem solves itself already with the person choosing which buffs to pick up, which is something the target of Volt's buff can't do, hence the backflip option. Again, this doesn't really justify the ability's whole design.

[selig_fay]

3 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

You've argued that the player may not necessarily need one or the other buff expressly for a situation, but that in itself does not justify separating a buff into three versions, as a single buff with all of the effects would in this respect be purely beneficial. There's no real argument here for why it would be bad to condense those buffs.

There is a real argument here. This is called gameplay. Giving your allies what they need in this situation is the gameplay as support class. Another point is that having all the buffs at once with reduced efficiency is a big nerf of ability and a big nerf of gameplay for nothing. So I don't see the point in doing it at all. But if you want, it can be done in the form of an augment. I think I made it clear that you want to destroy some people's fun for your convenience. 

 

[Teridax68]

3 minutes ago, zhellon said:

There is a real argument here. This is called gameplay. Giving your allies what they need in this situation is the gameplay as support class. Another point is that having all the buffs at once with reduced efficiency is a big nerf of ability and a big nerf of gameplay for nothing. So I don't see the point in doing it at all. But if you want, it can be done in the form of an augment.

There is no "gameplay" in laying down all three buffs all the time at virtually no additional cost, is the point. Gameplay would imply actual tradeoffs for doing so, and a reason not to lay down all three buffs the vast majority of the time. So far, you've failed to elaborate on that, which suggests that even you don't believe there is one.

3 minutes ago, zhellon said:

 I think I made it clear that you want to destroy some people's fun for your convenience. 

... how? This is a rather stupid and pointlessly antagonistic accusation to make. I'm clearly not trying to destroy anyone else's fun, I'm just proposing my opinion and trying to understand the reason behind your own vehement opposition to it. The fact that you quickly resort to character assassination when pressed to justify yourself suggests your attachment to your own opinions is more emotional than rational.

[selig_fay]

1 minute ago, Teridax68 said:

There is no "gameplay" in laying down all three buffs all the time at virtually no additional cost, is the point. Gameplay would imply actual tradeoffs for doing so, and a reason not to lay down all three buffs the vast majority of the time. So far, you've failed to elaborate on that, which suggests that even you don't believe there is one.

I think I've described most cases where you don't need three buffs.

13 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

... how? This is a rather stupid and pointlessly antagonistic accusation to make. I'm clearly not trying to destroy anyone else's fun, I'm just proposing my opinion and trying to understand the reason behind your own vehement opposition to it. The fact that you quickly resort to character assassination when pressed to justify yourself suggests your attachment to your own opinions is more emotional than rational.

Because I don't see the point in these changes. I tried to explain the advantages of having flexibility, but the answer was that you don't actually see my arguments. Maybe in your mind settled the idea of 6 reservoirs with all the buffs, but what is the point of this restriction, if there is no restriction? That is, it will make the ability even easier, because you will set up reservoirs and just don't worry.  Is this the case now? No, because you are worried about your reservoirs and their location or current buffs. At the moment you have a choice, either you make all buffs with a long cast, or you give 1 but almost without delay. This is flexibility. And as I said, some buffs can have a negative impact on the gameplay for other players. Chroma doesn't want to have an electric buff, he says it's bad. But Chroma likes HP. Does everyone like speed? No, some people don't want it. Maybe I'm playing with an ammo eater and don't want my ammo to fly faster against level 30 mobs that I kill quickly without speed buffs.

You may think I'm making excuses, but I'm not. This is what I see. I like how the Wisp kit is flexible. And that some things that I don't worry about in most situations will make a high impact in some situations.