Players afraid of playing Kuva Survival and other endless missions.

[(PSN)nedlogkid]

My Clan and Alliance run events like longest survival and give out rewards. Now when this last event was completed, all the players that completed the event got trade banned. I don't know the reason why this is done.  I just hope DE fixes this.  This really hinders my Alliance and Clan events. It is not fair to players to get punished for playing the game.

Edited May 21, 2020 by (PS4)nedlogkid

[Lahared]

On 2020-05-21 at 2:57 PM, (PS4)Unstar said:

DE does care about the health and well-being of its players.

Coughs quietly in 0.1% and other flavor mod drop rates. That aside, I seriously, vehemently doubt that.

While there are warframe abilities, boosters that improve the reliability of items that have drop rates, it doesn't detract from the fact that these low drop rates mean actively engaging in player retention. You either buy it, or you suffer the grind to "earn" it. Furthermore, it's interesting that they have aspects of their game dedicated to reduce the sheer brute-force rng dilemma; You trade your time and the seconds of your life, and in exchange have a CHANCE to get the item that you want, which funnily enough is quite similar to gambling. Except it's not funny when you're doing it to people you supposedly care about.

There should be an actual challenge system for things within relevancy to that specific item. Hypothetical example with a solution: Complete 3 rush missions within X for a guaranteed drop of some rare arch-wing, arch-gun, arch-melee mod. No duplicates until you go through the entire drop table. Here's an example of how punishing the current system is: Only three or four regular outriders spawn per mission depending on the spawn cap total and the avionic drop rate is 0.1%. How many times do the developers actually expect me to run that mission until I give up? How many times would they? If someone made something that is problematic, that actively exploits how people think, why did they do it? It's one thing to make a mistake, it's another to let it sit all these years and to keep doing it as if nothing is wrong.

Saying that game developers care about their player-base is like saying a poison cares for those it has afflicted. It's very anecdotal if I'm being honest. Encouraging unhealthy behavior has consequences and shouldn't be given reassurance. It requires only a few moments of thought to understand how anti-consumer games are becoming these days.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Lahared

[FadeToNull]

On 2020-05-21 at 11:08 AM, (PS4)northern_rebal said:

I would assume DE put the cheat detector in place because people complained. I would also assume that if they got rid of it, people would complain about cheating  again.

Why would you assume either of those things? Do you have links to any such complaints?

Quote

As a programmer I can tell you how hard it is to write code for every possible event

As a programmer I can tell you it's impossible.

However, writing code to handle every likely event is doable, and usually required.

Quote

I think setting a trigger for going over some set amount of rewards is reasonable.

Any system that punishes compliant users is the antithesis of "reasonable."

Are you actually defending automated bans on the basis of a single factor?

The present solution isn't just simple-minded and lazy, it's perverse: the game mode is literally called "endless."

The detection routine doesn't have to check "every possible event." It could alarm on outliers, then check mission type and time and realize this is just a normal player doing a long survival.

Why is it even checking reward levels at all? It's a clumsy, tangential heuristic. If the target is automation (I guess?) it should look at what the player is inputting, not what the game is outputting.

Edited June 4, 2020 by FadeToNull

[-Sandman]

How does caring about health and well being equate to a ban from doing something that's allowed? That's an incredibly absurd assumption. The logical solution if that were actually a concern is to end the mission or maybe force a mandatory break. It's quite obvious that the devs have always been pro grind, as the drop mechanics force some to grind for days and even years for a single item, some people actually never get some items during their player life.

Edited June 9, 2020 by -Sandman

[Graavarg]

On 2020-06-04 at 6:46 PM, FadeToNull said:

Why is it even checking reward levels at all? It's a clumsy, tangential heuristic. If the target is automation (I guess?) it should look at what the player is inputting, not what the game is outputting.

Are we sure that is actually what happens? That someone gets banned simply for maxing their legit rewards? I would be very interested in any proof, since if that is the case I/we will change how we currently play. However, I find it a bit hard to believe, since I've never experienced it myself (neither has anyone in the clan, and boy do we try to max all and any farming).

I can understand reward amount outliers triggering a secondary check (either automatic or manual, or both), but there is no logical reason why the amount of rewards would auto-trigger a ban just by itself.

On the other hand, every now and then I seen afk'ing, scripting/macro'ing, using environmental glitches (in the tileset design), "out of the tileset"-ing, dis- & re-connecting and other "strange" stuff, and based on that my opinion is that there exists a gray area of gameplay that some players considers "ok" (since it is not exactly cheating and there is no specific rule prohibiting exactly that) but DE considers "not ok" ("not playing the game like it is meant to be played"). And that some "unexplainable" bans might arise from a player on the squad using said options/possibilities (or possibly wrongly being detected as using them).

[hyzmarca]

8 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Are we sure that is actually what happens? That someone gets banned simply for maxing their legit rewards? I would be very interested in any proof, since if that is the case I/we will change how we currently play. However, I find it a bit hard to believe, since I've never experienced it myself (neither has anyone in the clan, and boy do we try to max all and any farming).

Yes,  we're sure.  There are two pretty big incidents that prove it,  as well.   After the Chesa kubrow rework, optimized  Silver Grove apothetic shares got people trade banned.  That wasn't long play or glitching,  it was just using every loot frame in the game and a loot kubrow to maximize mod drops from specters (Ivara pickpockets,  Hydroid tentacles,  nekros and chesa both desecrate,  for up to 5 drops per specter,   2 apothics per squad member x4,  = 40 mods) The thresholds were set high enough to accomidate all of the loot frames,  but weren't adjusted to take into account the fact that the Chesa stacked with them. 

 

The other big incident was the Jupiter Rework,  in which DE made the drop rates of neural sensors way too high.   There was a rash of endless mission trade bans,  even for relatively short runs,  simply due to the huge piles of neural sensors the drop rate produced. 

[-TSA-warramssie]

   

Yes we are sure , it was this stupid Chesa Kubrow incident .... when I made a post on this forum explaining how to get septuple mod loot drop chance (7x !!!) with the right squad , pets and specter setup and asked if DE would approve of this farming method for mods like Growing Power or Condition Overload - well the post got deleted within 10 minutes... simply for the matter I explained the strategy openly to anyone and I was doubtful if DE had thought this through til the bitter end. they hadnt.

Tenno you forgot Atlas Petry Gaze and Slashing the corpses at the right moment , when Hydroid delivered the killing blow ( 5+2=7 ) . so it was even more absurd..

At that time around a nekros spectre would still desecrate which is not the case anymore...

 

But anyhow : 

that doesnt change the simple fact that, how does banning someone from the trade Dojo hold a candle to worrying about health issues deriving from long playsession issues ??                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               The whole situation is rather grotesque and leaves a bitter taste all around.

[sam686]

1 hour ago, hyzmarca said:

The other big incident was the Jupiter Rework,  in which DE made the drop rates of neural sensors way too high.   There was a rash of endless mission trade bans

I really don't know why trade ban from too many Neural Sensors. Neural Sensors cannot trade so there are no real harm to not using trade bans. Just trade restrict some of the newest items for a week or so if they keep wanting to do some more trade restrictions. Do not trade ban all items.

Other fears of long endless mission are loss of connection, game crash, or forced PC restart from windows 10 update. Maybe save items and resources every 5 or 20 waves.

If DE cares about health of players of needing to take breaks, they should give players an option to start at level 200 or level 9000 enemies so they can play super hard mode for as short as 20 minutes. This will be much faster then waiting several hours just to get high level enemies.

[Graavarg]

12 hours ago, hyzmarca said:

Yes,  we're sure.  There are two pretty big incidents that prove it,  as well.   After the Chesa kubrow rework, optimized  Silver Grove apothetic shares got people trade banned.  That wasn't long play or glitching,  it was just using every loot frame in the game and a loot kubrow to maximize mod drops from specters (Ivara pickpockets,  Hydroid tentacles,  nekros and chesa both desecrate,  for up to 5 drops per specter,   2 apothics per squad member x4,  = 40 mods) The thresholds were set high enough to accomidate all of the loot frames,  but weren't adjusted to take into account the fact that the Chesa stacked with them. 

 

The other big incident was the Jupiter Rework,  in which DE made the drop rates of neural sensors way too high.   There was a rash of endless mission trade bans,  even for relatively short runs,  simply due to the huge piles of neural sensors the drop rate produced. 

Ok. Thanks! I didn't know this.

However, are you really really sure? As far as I know you can only loot the same object once per "group ability", and the Chesa desecrate/loot corpse and Nekros desecrate is in the same "group" = both can't trigger on the same object. So while you theoretically can get quadruple loot (one each per "while alive", "while petrified", "on death" and "from corpse/corpse part") Chesa & Nekros cancels each other out. Or has this been changed again?

Or does it come from slashing one enemy into "parts" (from which you can get more "from corpse"-drops...).

Edited June 11, 2020 by Graavarg

[Berzerkules]

It would be nice if DE would let us know what actually triggers this trade ban so we can avoid it in the future. 

 

I'll just leave this here. 

 

[Aikonce]

Same thing, hope DE fix this trigger someday.

[hyzmarca]

5 hours ago, Graavarg said:

Ok. Thanks! I didn't know this.

However, are you really really sure? As far as I know you can only loot the same object once per "group ability", and the Chesa desecrate/loot corpse and Nekros desecrate is in the same "group" = both can't trigger on the same object. So while you theoretically can get quadruple loot (one each per "while alive", "while petrified", "on death" and "from corpse/corpse part") Chesa & Nekros cancels each other out. Or has this been changed again?

Or does it come from slashing one enemy into "parts" (from which you can get more "from corpse"-drops...).

That was changed.  When Chesa was originally reworked,  it stacked with Nekros.  This was an unexpected oversight on DE's part,  and they over corrected by preventing loot ability stacking altogether,   which was a a bit of a scandal,   then they reverted the overcorrection and just removed Chesa stacking with Nekros. 

Edited June 11, 2020 by hyzmarca

[Graavarg]

23 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

It would be nice if DE would let us know what actually triggers this trade ban so we can avoid it in the future.

Well, they kind of say that they will not tell (because that would help hackers/scripters/exploiters etc., called "security reasons").

What is interesting though is that they clearly state that mission time is not a factor. So if one assumes that is true, the flag was raised because of something "you did" (since you were playing solo). And presumably it wasn't anything wrong (since you were allowed to keep your account).

Also interesting is that it is not actually an "auto-ban", it is a two-week audit (during which time DE presumably checks the instance and the overall stats on your account), that comes with a trade ban. The trade ban makes perfect sense from the viewpoint that if you were doing something "sinister" (that would make you afraid of and/or expect a perma-ban) it stops you from "selling everything & running".

[Berzerkules]

13 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

Well, they kind of say that they will not tell (because that would help hackers/scripters/exploiters etc., called "security reasons").

What is interesting though is that they clearly state that mission time is not a factor. So if one assumes that is true, the flag was raised because of something "you did" (since you were playing solo). And presumably it wasn't anything wrong (since you were allowed to keep your account).

Also interesting is that it is not actually an "auto-ban", it is a two-week audit (during which time DE presumably checks the instance and the overall stats on your account), that comes with a trade ban. The trade ban makes perfect sense from the viewpoint that if you were doing something "sinister" (that would make you afraid of and/or expect a perma-ban) it stops you from "selling everything & running".

If it's not the length of the mission that triggers it then what would it be? The amount or resources gathered? Crafting materials and credits aren't tradeable so that shouldn't be an issue. A whole bunch of untradeable trash mods? That leaves the prime parts from the relics. Implementing a trade ban seems to imply my intent was to profit off of those prime parts. It's not like running long survivals is the most efficient way to farm trade able prime parts. I couldn't single-handedly crash the market by cracking 100+ relics in a single mission. You could get more tradeable items by running exterminate or captures since those take <2 minutes per relic. You could literally farm twice as many prime parts in the same amount of time running quick missions. 

A trade ban for endurance runs makes no sense to me. There are leader boards that show who played what mission the longest. Why do leader boards exist? The serve no purpose except bragging rights. You don't get anything for being at the top of the leader boards. The only thing you win is a trade ban. DE has leader boards that do nothing except bait players into getting banned. 

It also doesn't make sense to me that it is a flat 2 week ban that counts down the hours until you are allowed to trade again. Like is that just the grace period that DE gives them selves to get around to reviewing the incident? If so, why not reinstate your trading privileges as soon as it is reviewed? 

I just like seeing how far I can take a loadout. We are given a 70 frames,400+ weapons, an assortment of companions and focus schools to choose from. There are going to be combinations that can reach max level with little effort even when played legitimately. You just have to put the time in and have a basic understanding of how the game works. You can't just run from room to room expecting an endless swarm of enemies to be there waiting for you. That's not how it works. You are almost forced to camp areas that will allow for enough enemies to spawn around you so you can keep life support up. This is very noticeable when playing solo. If "camping" specific tiles triggers a ban That's not really the players fault. That is the players working with what DE gave them. The fun part is finding different combinations of the tools we were given to take to the environment provided and slaughter some bad guys. 

I'm going to keep running builds as long as I can. Maybe at some point it will no longer be flagged for having abnormal results when it becomes the norm for my account. It's more fun to play the game than sit in trade chat trying to push some gg rivens or hanging out in the dojo for an hour using all my trades for a day. Trading is not that much fun it just lets me get the things I want to play longer missions. 

On the plus side trade bans helps me avoid situations like this

 

 

[Tokens210]

3 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

If it's not the length of the mission that triggers it then what would it be? The amount or resources gathered? Crafting materials and credits aren't tradeable so that shouldn't be an issue. A whole bunch of untradeable trash mods? That leaves the prime parts from the relics. Implementing a trade ban seems to imply my intent was to profit off of those prime parts. It's not like running long survivals is the most efficient way to farm trade able prime parts. I couldn't single-handedly crash the market by cracking 100+ relics in a single mission. You could get more tradeable items by running exterminate or captures since those take <2 minutes per relic. You could literally farm twice as many prime parts in the same amount of time running quick missions. 

A trade ban for endurance runs makes no sense to me. There are leader boards that show who played what mission the longest. Why do leader boards exist? The serve no purpose except bragging rights. You don't get anything for being at the top of the leader boards. The only thing you win is a trade ban. DE has leader boards that do nothing except bait players into getting banned. 

It also doesn't make sense to me that it is a flat 2 week ban that counts down the hours until you are allowed to trade again. Like is that just the grace period that DE gives them selves to get around to reviewing the incident? If so, why not reinstate your trading privileges as soon as it is reviewed? 

I just like seeing how far I can take a loadout. We are given a 70 frames,400+ weapons, an assortment of companions and focus schools to choose from. There are going to be combinations that can reach max level with little effort even when played legitimately. You just have to put the time in and have a basic understanding of how the game works. You can't just run from room to room expecting an endless swarm of enemies to be there waiting for you. That's not how it works. You are almost forced to camp areas that will allow for enough enemies to spawn around you so you can keep life support up. This is very noticeable when playing solo. If "camping" specific tiles triggers a ban That's not really the players fault. That is the players working with what DE gave them. The fun part is finding different combinations of the tools we were given to take to the environment provided and slaughter some bad guys. 

I'm going to keep running builds as long as I can. Maybe at some point it will no longer be flagged for having abnormal results when it becomes the norm for my account. It's more fun to play the game than sit in trade chat trying to push some gg rivens or hanging out in the dojo for an hour using all my trades for a day. Trading is not that much fun it just lets me get the things I want to play longer missions. 

On the plus side trade bans helps me avoid situations like this

 

 

the system came from a time where keys were a thing instead of relics

with a key only 1 person needed to use the key and everyone could go to the void for prime parts

in endless missions you got prime parts every so many rounds altho you didnt get a choice it was RNG, but with 1 key you could stay and just keep getting prime parts

people found ways to glitch out of the map so enemies couldnt hurt them but they could hurt enemies, and other exploits

this resulted in people not even like your 6 and a half hours run which is kinda crazy long, id have banned ya till i looked into it as well(cause your not actually banned, your just trade banned till they look into it, i see nothing wrong here, i mean not ideal but nothing wrong either), but we had peeple running missions for DAYS, and leaving with enough resources and prime parts that they were able to buy pretty much everything in game and still have crazy plat and resource levels

 

its probably gone now but their actually used to be a guide on youtube where a guy grinded survival for like 3 straight days (just 1 game of survival), sold everything cheap for plat, bought absolutely everything on the marketplace including like 100s of slots and still had 10k plat left (so play for 3 days, beat the entire game, guide type deal)

 

 

 

now with all this being said im not saying he system works fine, or that it couldnt use some tweaking, im merely saying they brought the system into play for a reason and it atleast in part seems or seemed to work

Edited June 12, 2020 by Tokens210

[Graavarg]

3 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

If it's not the length of the mission that triggers it then what would it be? The amount or resources gathered? Crafting materials and credits aren't tradeable so that shouldn't be an issue. A whole bunch of untradeable trash mods? That leaves the prime parts from the relics. Implementing a trade ban seems to imply my intent was to profit off of those prime parts. It's not like running long survivals is the most efficient way to farm trade able prime parts. I couldn't single-handedly crash the market by cracking 100+ relics in a single mission. You could get more tradeable items by running exterminate or captures since those take <2 minutes per relic. You could literally farm twice as many prime parts in the same amount of time running quick missions. 

A trade ban for endurance runs makes no sense to me.

No, I think it is the other way around. When you are playing you do something or play in a way that DE's "anticheat"-system picks up, rightly or wrongly. The trade-ban is only to stop you from selling your stuff (or giving it away) while they audit/check how you played and your account.

It is the same thing that gets done IRL, if the authorities suspects "foul play" they will freeze the accounts of the suspect during the investigation.

That way everything makes sense. Something triggers a check, and during the check your "fortune" is frozen. To make it impossible for you to quickly do something, the "freeze" is automatic (instead of manual). If you haven't cheated/hacked/exploited you'll get your fortune back, if you have cheated/hacked/exploited you will (probably) loose everything. The trade-ban isn't an actual punishment, it is just part of the audit.

That is the only way it makes sense to me, anyway.

Just think if someone who actually cheats/hacks/exploits would get audited, but isn't trade-banned. The suspect would expect a perma-ban, and would start trading away rivens and parts for real money or plat, and plat for real money. Before the ban hits. And DE would be left with a huge mess, involving completely innocent players. It would be even worse than "negative plat". 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Graavarg

[Berzerkules]

2 hours ago, Graavarg said:

No, I think it is the other way around. When you are playing you do something or play in a way that DE's "anticheat"-system picks up, rightly or wrongly. The trade-ban is only to stop you from selling your stuff (or giving it away) while they audit/check how you played and your account.

It is the same thing that gets done IRL, if the authorities suspects "foul play" they will freeze the accounts of the suspect during the investigation.

That way everything makes sense. Something triggers a check, and during the check your "fortune" is frozen. To make it impossible for you to quickly do something, the "freeze" is automatic (instead of manual). If you haven't cheated/hacked/exploited you'll get your fortune back, if you have cheated/hacked/exploited you will (probably) loose everything. The trade-ban isn't an actual punishment, it is just part of the audit.

That is the only way it makes sense to me, anyway.

Just think if someone who actually cheats/hacks/exploits would get audited, but isn't trade-banned. The suspect would expect a perma-ban, and would start trading away rivens and parts for real money or plat, and plat for real money. Before the ban hits. And DE would be left with a huge mess, involving completely innocent players. It would be even worse than "negative plat". 

My plat is still good with DE. I rushed Protea and bought some cosmetics yesterday. I can buy anything in the market, I just can't gift items to other players.. 

I understand the idea of freezing someone's assets until they review the event that triggered their system. Once they have reviewed it, and determined you did nothing wrong, you should have trade privileges reinstated. Not at the end of a preset timer. It's like having a mandatory minimum sentence for being suspected of a crime. 

Players that have done nothing wrong are being punished. It has happened repeatedly over an extended period of time. The system is flawed. DE knows this and does nothing about it. Many players know about it and don't care because it does not effect them.

Another problem that isn't addressed by DE is locking accounts that get stuck with a negative plat balance due to unknowingly receiving "bad" plat. This is a serious issue. Many of these players have done absolutely nothing wrong and have their accounts locked until they pay DE real world money. Innocent players are getting punished for the actions of others. The player that buys plat, trades with players and then cancels the payment just scammed unknowing players and stuck them with the bill. This is by definition fraud. It is a crime and should be dealt with as such. Instead DE decided to punish the victim and make them pay the bill. 

Imposing bans on players that have done nothing wrong is just a bad policy, yet it seems to be how DE operates. You're not innocent until proven guilty, you are guilty until proven otherwise. Even then you are punished as if you had done something wrong. 

[(PSN)Kakurine2]

A lot depends on if one has time to run the endless runs. I generally don't go too far with pugs.

Its not a matter of fear. Its a question of what is worth ones time. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by (PS4)Kakurine2

[Lust_Hunter_Youtube]

Yo! I have the same issue. Cant get why. Support keeps silence (both - russian and english). No any clear answer. Seems very bad and unhealthy. Hope they will fix that.