Frail Momentum is pointless because Shotgun Spazz

[nslay]

40 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I mean, the Exergis was always status king, it just wasn't useful before. You could get to 100% status with just 3 mods before the change, but it didn't matter - 3 pellets and no crit meant that extra status was lost.

Now the Exergis can still get to 100% status and the Tig Prime can't, but the Tig has some crit and more multishot and is still the more damaging weapon overall.

I contest this. Nitpicking... but Strun Wraith was status king.

Exergis may only have 3 pellets, but their base damage is more than twice the base damage of Tigris Prime (540 damage per pellet vs 195 damage per pellet). This is important for Slash tic calculation! In the old system, this didn't matter because Tigris Prime could proc a status on every single pellet depending how you mod it, would have 50% or more pellets proccing Slash status. Thus, the sheer massive number of Slash procs of Tigris Prime would overcome any base damage advantage of Exergis.

Now Tigris Prime can proc about the same number of pellets as Exergis. Guess who wins in Slash tic damage? Exergis. The Slash tics on Exergis' few Slash procs will be larger than Tigris Prime's few Slash procs.

Sancti Tigris is better than Tigris Prime because it has mediocre crit chance over terrible crit chance (15% vs 10%) and can be modded as a mediocre hybrid damage weapon and augmented with Hunter Munitions. Again, while the old system preferred 100% status shotguns - most of which were designed for status - the new system prefers hybrid builds - the minority of which are designed for hybrid builds!

[Xylena_Lazarow]

15 minutes ago, nslay said:

the minority of which are designed for hybrid builds

Which shotguns are you referring to? Beginner variants aside, the only primary shotguns that can't really run crit builds are the Exergis, Phantasma, Sobek, and Tigris Prime. The problem with crit builds on shotguns is the weakness of Blunderbuss, forcing you to run either a riven or that ADS mod to reach an adequate crit chance. Primed Blunderbuss would go a long way, but unfortunately pure status weapons of all classes still need a ton of help, not just shotguns (e.g. Boltor Prime).

[nslay]

28 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Which shotguns are you referring to? Beginner variants aside, the only primary shotguns that can't really run crit builds are the Exergis, Phantasma, Sobek, and Tigris Prime. The problem with crit builds on shotguns is the weakness of Blunderbuss, forcing you to run either a riven or that ADS mod to reach an adequate crit chance. Primed Blunderbuss would go a long way, but unfortunately pure status weapons of all classes still need a ton of help, not just shotguns (e.g. Boltor Prime).

Anything with less than 15% is garbage for hybrid builds... and 15% is pretty darn mediocre already.

Good hybrid build shotguns (that are actual multi-pellet):
Vaykor Hek
Kuva Kohm
Kuva Drakgoon
Corinth Prime
 

Mediocre hybrid build shotguns:
Strun Wraith
Boar Prime
Sancti Tigris

Of course, I'm excluding the two single-pellet shotguns... they're not really shotguns!
 

The rest are not very good for hybrid builds. Like Sobek, Kohm, Tigris Prime, Corinth (naturally)

Now what about beam shotguns? Oh, these are garbage now... no matter how you build them. Phage is kinda salvageable... but applying tics by fire rate independent of the beam count/multishot is unbelievably awful and inefficient for status (and that's all beam weapons apparently). Phage is the better one though. The other two like Convectrix and Phantasma are outright garbage (the former is especially garbage for it's awful usage with its split beam gimmick).

Now funny you should mention Boltor Prime! I can efficiently take down level 145 Exo Gokstad Officers with a carefully designed Viral/Heat Boltor Prime. It takes less than a magazine... it's not more efficient than 2 shots from Exergis (that bleeds it to death), but pretty darn good for Boltor Prime!

Edited May 26, 2020 by nslay
Let's say Corinth Prime is a good hybrid shotgun

[Xylena_Lazarow]

13 minutes ago, nslay said:

Now funny you should mention Boltor Prime!

Compare it to a properly built Telos Boltor, then cry.

We're mostly on the same page, but I have to disagree with you on Boar Prime, its high riven disposition lets it compete with the Kuva Kohm.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Xylena_Lazarow

[nslay]

4 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Compare it to a properly built Telos Boltor, then cry.

We're mostly on the same page, but I have to disagree with you on Boar Prime, which compares well to the Kuva Kohm with the right riven.

You don't need a riven for Kuva Kohm. You can build it hybrid and it tears anything apart.

[nslay]

14 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Compare it to a properly built Telos Boltor, then cry.

We're mostly on the same page, but I have to disagree with you on Boar Prime, its high riven disposition lets it compete with the Kuva Kohm.

In all fairness, I haven't spent a lot of time with Boar Prime in the new update. I've not got my hands on Sancti Tigris yet. But I do have a heavily forma'd Strun Wraith and it does not perform that great. The Vaykor Hek is much better.

So I extrapolate from Strun Wraith's mediocre performance back to Sancti Tigris and Boar Prime. I will play with Boar Prime later.

Of course, Rivens can always fix a lot of these shotguns. The aforementioned ones like Kuva Kohm don't need a Riven.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

@nslay sorry for being unclear, I edited my post, I was referring to Boar rivens having a high disposition, allowing a crit/hybrid Boar Prime to perform similarly to the Kuva Kohm (at least until you put a crit riven onto the Kuva Kohm).

Much like the Boltor Prime, pure status shotguns like the Exergis, Sobek, and Tigris Prime are definitely usable with the right build, but they've fallen far behind their crit focused counterparts. Pure status weapons need an additional multiplier like the old CO, hopefully without exponential scaling this time. I could bring up again here my hope for useless Puncture procs to instead give an additive buff to both crit stats, raising the damage floor for status weapons without really affecting the ceiling for already strong crit weapons.

There is definitely no helping the beam shotguns, save for a Bramma scenario where their damage is buffed to insane levels.

[nslay]

8 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

@nslay sorry for being unclear, I edited my post, I was referring to Boar rivens having a high disposition, allowing a crit/hybrid Boar Prime to perform similarly to the Kuva Kohm (at least until you put a crit riven onto the Kuva Kohm).

Much like the Boltor Prime, pure status shotguns like the Exergis, Sobek, and Tigris Prime are definitely usable with the right build, but they've fallen far behind their crit focused counterparts. Pure status weapons need an additional multiplier like the old CO, hopefully without exponential scaling this time. I could bring up again here my hope for useless Puncture procs to instead give an additive buff to both crit stats, raising the damage floor for status weapons without really affecting the ceiling for already strong crit weapons.

There is definitely no helping the beam shotguns, save for a Bramma scenario where their damage is buffed to insane levels.

I don't have a Telos Boltor to compare yet. I'm not too far away from reaching that rank in Hexis!

If you have both forma'd and modded, try these two Boltor Prime builds:
Heavy Heat: http://warframe-builder.com/s/01aeac97694fe3cc
More Multishot: http://warframe-builder.com/s/25f914ecfc72fd60

I'm curious how it will fare against a Viral/Hunter Munitions Telos Boltor.

NOTE: Warframe Builder has Boltor Prime's status at 32% when it was updated to be 34%. So everything is actually 100% status. Also be aware of the lower ranked mods!

[Xylena_Lazarow]

56 minutes ago, nslay said:

I'm curious how it will fare against a Viral/Hunter Munitions Telos Boltor.

Spent some more time in the simulacrum, same conclusion, crit is king. I was however pleasantly surprised by a viral HM crit riven build on the Boltor Prime.

[MetalGrayFox]

I agree with this post. There should also be a similar sort of buff for Heavy Cal as currently it costs 2 more than a maxed Serration to slot and you lose accuracy for the same damage buff.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

1 hour ago, MetalGrayFox said:

I agree with this post

Cheers!

1 hour ago, MetalGrayFox said:

There should also be a similar sort of buff for Heavy Cal as currently it costs 2 more than a maxed Serration to slot and you lose accuracy for the same damage buff

I think the case is different there as you always stack corrupted +damage/-accuracy mods. Every weapon can spare a slot for more damage, it's just a question about whether they remain effective after losing the accuracy.

Vicious Spread (the shotgun equivalent to Heavy Calibre) is widely used, in a load of builds, and it's always stacked with Point Blank or Primed Point Blank.

I don't think I've seen a single build ever use Frail Momentum, as it's only use case would be double stacking, but unlike +damage no shoguns need +fire rate enough to give up 2 mod slots for it.

Edited May 26, 2020 by (XB1)KayAitch

[Xylena_Lazarow]

34 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I think the case is different there as you always stack corrupted +damage/-accuracy mods. Every weapon can spare a slot for more damage, it's just a question about whether they remain effective after losing the accuracy.

A drawback for stacking another base damage mod is fine, but Heavy Caliber perhaps should be buffed, as there's really no reason to use it over Vigilante Armaments.

[taiiat]

5 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Exactly.

i don't rate Weapons based around having a Riven for everything, since that shouldn't be a necessity.
needing a Riven in order to give the Weapon something of a role is not the right way.

and without one, is just relying on the Base Damage of the Shotguns to still perform acceptably.

5 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I mean, they did that already. They tripled the base status per pellet on every shotgun.

no, they didn't. they gave them some Status Numbers, but not a value that's actually appropriate for their Multi-Shot/Rate of Fire differences to non Shotguns.
hitting about equal to an Automatic Weapon would actually be higher than the numbers i suggested.

 

 

5 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

DE have been pushing prime weapons down so that recent ones tend to be only slightly better than base variants - they don't want a godly Tigris Prime compared to an MR fodder Tigris.

which all that'll really end up doing is having the 99% be totally lost because they already had trouble figuring out if one Weapon was better than another when it was plainly obvious, but now they'll be literally helpless with Weapons trying to be a random assortment of 'pulling out of a hat' with their Stats.

5 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

A static weapon meta burns players out, a dynamic one means the best guns are gonna shift some time.

copying MOBA's in their completely knowledge vacant way to """balance""" is not a smart strategy. i can't stop games all doing that anyways though, since it's an easy hands off way to pretend like you're doing something good.

[MetalGrayFox]

1 hour ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Every weapon can spare a slot for more damage,

Too subjective, I am not suggesting it based on current builds, more the principle of a mod vs mod scenario. Heavy Cal vs Serration offers nothing additional in terms of damage output, however you lose accuracy and you have a higher drain. This is a gold vs a silver mod.
Sure you can stack them, but if you only want to use one there should be a benefit to using heavy cal as you are sacrificing accuracy. That's more what I meant anyway.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

7 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I mean, they did that already. They tripled the base status per pellet on every shotgun.

no, they didn't. they gave them some Status Numbers, but not a value that's actually appropriate for their Multi-Shot/Rate of Fire differences to non Shotguns

DE totally did. We knew what the base per-pellet chance was way back. Those stat numbers are not arbitrary, they're 3x more than what shotguns did before whenever they didn't hit the magic 100%

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

now they'll be literally helpless with Weapons trying to be a random assortment of 'pulling out of a hat' with their Stats

I mean, that's what Borderlands does and it definitely works there. I don't think that's what they're aiming for. I think the idea is that Prime is a small improvement so that the game doesn't become too pay-to-win, in that many folks buy primes from Access/Vault while standard weapons are more earned.

That's the intent anyway, whether they achieve it is another matter.

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

7 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

A static weapon meta burns players out, a dynamic one means the best guns are gonna shift some time.

copying MOBA's in their completely knowledge vacant way to """balance""" is not a smart strategy

I don't think that's what DE is doing, I don't think they try to balance weapons much. They don't want the whole "new season, your old guns are now useless", and they do fairly well at keeping a surprising number of old weapons current.

Still, some are going to pass out of meta, so new ones can emerge. I won't miss the Tig Prime any more than the Boltor Prime (which used to be the best weapon in the game way back).

Still, let's agree to disagree, stay angry if that works for you.

1 hour ago, MetalGrayFox said:

3 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Every weapon can spare a slot for more damage,

Too subjective,

Isn't every build? I don't mean the best build or even a good build, I just mean a viable one.

1 hour ago, MetalGrayFox said:

Sure you can stack them, but if you only want to use one there should be a benefit to using heavy cal as you are sacrificing accuracy. That's more what I meant anyway.

I broadly agree, but I think they're designed to be stacked rather than either/or.

[taiiat]

52 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

DE totally did.

they increased the Status, they did not increase the Status to be about equal roughly with their Multi-Shot and Fire Rate deltas to non Shotguns.
which is literally what i said.

53 minutes ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I don't think that's what DE is doing

the game regularly shuffles numbers out of a hat moving blah blah from being popular to something(s) else to be instead. almost exactly like MOBA's do, where ""balance"" is just a way to drive people buying Skins infinitely. which for Warframe also includes Rivens since Warframe has more than just Skins.
can't even pretend that the game doesn't do that when __ may get nerfed for __ reason and later literally another Weapon will be created that does the same thing that __ previously did the same or even better. nullifying the excuse in the first place.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

10 hours ago, taiiat said:

11 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

DE totally did.

they increased the Status, they did not increase the Status to be about equal roughly with their Multi-Shot and Fire Rate deltas to non Shotguns

They did. Any build with < 100% status before now does about 3x as many procs.

So a build that used to have an overall 30% chance, now has a much lower per-pellet chance but per shot (across all pellets) now has a 90% chance of at least one proc.

That means for all <100% shotguns their change in status is 3x what it was, and yeah, that puts them with non-shotguns.

All they took away was the 100% bug, which was broken in the first place. They aren't going to bring that back, and they aren't going to increase every shotgun until you can get 100% per pellet again.

10 hours ago, taiiat said:

the game regularly shuffles numbers out of a hat moving blah blah from being popular to something(s) else to be instead. almost exactly like MOBA's do, where ""balance"" is just a way to drive people buying Skins infinitely. which for Warframe also includes Rivens since Warframe has more than just Skins.
can't even pretend that the game doesn't do that when __ may get nerfed for __ reason and later literally another Weapon will be created that does the same thing that __ previously did the same or even better. nullifying the excuse in the first place.

If you don't like it stop playing. Warframe is an ongoing game, you won't find one that doesn't have to shift weapon metas over time. Destiny ships new powerful weapons with each update and leaves old ones unable to hurt the new enemies, the MOBAs you hate so much ship new characters and nerf old ones, there isn't a way to do this that leaves old weapons forever gold.

I doubt I'd still be playing if the Boltor Prime and Lex Prime had been the top tier weapons for the last 5 years. Power creep and meta drift are not only inevitable but desirable, and if you don't like that I don't think Warframe is for you.

Let's agree to disagree on this one. I came here to moan about Frail Momentum, not argue with very salty folks about shotgun status and the base game design.

 

 

[Madway7]

Cases like these make me wonder if maybe a mod system with more conflicting mods would be good. Meaning that you won't be able to stack mods that do the same thing, but ones with drawbacks or conditions would need to make them warrant using them over the base versions.

 

Like Point Strike would still give 150% crit chance with nothing attached, 

Argon Scope would be 200% crit chance since you have to keep getting headshots and have to aim to get the effect

Critical Delay would be about 180% crit chance, since it comes with the downside of lower fire rate

 

But under this system you would only be able to use 1

 

Don't know if something like this would work well or if DE would go for it, but mostly in terms of corrupted mods it's something that I've felt could work.

 

Note: There would be some exceptions to the system like status chance, physical and elemental dmg, also I've mostly thought of it in terms of weapons, not frames.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Madway7

[taiiat]

8 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

They did.

at this level of Reading Comprehension, i give up.

1 hour ago, Madway7 said:

Like Point Strike would still give 150% crit chance with nothing attached, 
Argon Scope would be 200% crit chance since you have to keep getting headshots and have to aim to get the effect
Critical Delay would be about 180% crit chance, since it comes with the downside of lower fire rate

But under this system you would only be able to use 1

you could do it, though Critical Delay would need to be like, 225 for it to even be worth considering at all. and you could make it equal to Argon Scope, for picking either a conditional activation or paying a penalty.
that could work, sure.

[nslay]

23 hours ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

A drawback for stacking another base damage mod is fine, but Heavy Caliber perhaps should be buffed, as there's really no reason to use it over Vigilante Armaments.

There is an advantage purely in damage, Heavy Caliber gives you a ~62% relative increase in damage over Vigilante Armaments's ~32% relative increase (when using Split Chamber). Though if you want status procs, you might want Vigilante Armaments for having more procs.

EDIT: When the factors are considered together, Heavy Caliber wins with a relative increase of damage at 23%. This factor is the damage ratio between: Heavy Caliber + Serration + Split Chamber vs Vigilante Armaments + Serration + Split Chamber.

Edited May 27, 2020 by nslay

[Xylena_Lazarow]

19 minutes ago, nslay said:

When the factors are considered together, Heavy Caliber wins with a relative increase of damage at 23%.

It's even closer if you factor the additional HM slash procs and Vigilante crit buff procs, and extra chances for viral procs on low status weapons is noticeable.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

On 2020-05-26 at 1:55 PM, Xylena_Lazarow said:

We're mostly on the same page, but I have to disagree with you on Boar Prime, its high riven disposition lets it compete with the Kuva Kohm.

Dunno about Boar Prime. I have a crit chance, status chance, -recoil, -Impact Riven that completely removes the Impact stat on the Boar Prime, and killing enemies is still a struggle. It does reliably proc Bleed if I put in Sweeping Serrations or Hunter Munitions, but because it’s a full-auto shotgun with a very low base damage even with Primed Point Blank and Hell’s Chamber equipped it has a tough time to take down armored targets. Added to the fact that it only has 120 ammo reserves, it’s not an ammo efficient shottie either.

Modding for Corrosive/Heat or Viral/Heat, it’s a struggle if I don't consistently land headshots. I would put the Boar Prime below mediocre on hybrid shotguns.

With Kohm/Kuva Kohm, the weapon still shreds because of its unique mechanic of applying additional multishot as it continues to spool. And it has enough ammo reserves to back it up to sustain dps. 

Sancti Tigris is really good as a hybrid shottie, however. It has a higher base damage to bolster the strength of bleed tics, and I believe the cone spread on the pellets is tighter than Tigris Prime. I do have a great roll on a Tigris Riven (Damage/Multishot/Slash/+Recoil), so I might be biased on the Sancti Tigris’ performance. Even still, I had a subpar Riven prior to this one (Multishot/StatusChance/-Reload), and it was decent at 2-tapping enemies with the occasional 1-tap due to Bleed and Viral procs sync-ing up appropriately.

Maybe had I gotten a Riven for Boar that bolstered Damage, Multishot, and/or Crit Chance, things would be different (especially with -Impact). However, compared to a un-Rivened Sancti Tigris or Tigris Prime, ttk and sustained dps is still better with the Tigrises than Boar Prime just because the differences in base damage is that much more apparent in comparison. And compared to an un-rivened Kohm/Kuva Kohm, I can’t see how a rivened Boar Prime can be comparable in terms of dps.

Edited May 30, 2020 by (PS4)Lei-Lei_23
edits for the sake of editing.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Dunno about Boar Prime. I have a crit chance, status chance, -recoil, -Impact Riven

Unfortunately, the +sc and -recoil are dead lines. Since we only care about viral procs, you don't need to invest in status beyond the 60/60 toxin mod to quickly stack 10, neither do you need to remove the impact damage for the sake of proc distribution or precision. My own Boar riven is +cc/+cd/+punch/-slash (harmless negative with HM).

It feels kinda bad to use the same viral crit build on everything (and to need rivens), but it at least breathes life into some marginal hybrid weapons.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

On 2020-05-26 at 6:55 PM, Xylena_Lazarow said:

We're mostly on the same page, but I have to disagree with you on Boar Prime, its high riven disposition lets it compete with the Kuva Kohm.

Dunno about Boar Prime. I have a crit chance, status chance, -recoil, -Impact Riven that completely removes the Impact stat on the Boar Prime, and killing enemies is still a struggle

In this specific context (double fire rate mods) all the auto shotguns suffer because they all have kind of the same problem: shotgun ammo comes in packs of 10.

They all run out, and once they have the weapon is extremely hard to refill. You need 4 or 5 ammo pads to refill a Kohm. It's great in a capture, but it's no much use in any endless missions.

Same issue for beam weapons (with the possible exception of the Convectrix with its NW aug, but that sucks in other ways). DPS doesn't matter if you can't use the weapon because it's out of ammo.

You can offset this to some extent with ammo mutation mods, but then you're on 3 mods (admittedly one plex) to do this.

Frail Momentum should either give more fire rate than Shotgun Spazz, or cost much less.

 

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

4 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

Frail Momentum should either give more fire rate than Shotgun Spazz, or cost much less.

Yes, back on topic.

I wholeheartedly agree that Frail Momentum should be updated to -15% Damage +120% Fire Rate, same drain cost of 9. The drain shouldn’t be less for a mod to resume its previous behavior (-15% Damage +90% Fire Rate) since it falls in line with the other Corrupted Fire Rate mods drain costs, and there should never be a compromise for an outdated mod that cannot be used individually nor is it ever useful in promoting itself individually in a mod build.

In today’s Warframe, within the contexts of Shotgun Spazz and Frail Momentum, there are no instances where you would use both to bolster Fire Rate for two mod slots on standard shotguns. There can be an argument for beam weapons and status procs with regards to Fire Rate over Multishot, but I’m sure we’re in full agreement that status procs on shotguns is awkward at best since the recent changes. Even then, to dedicate two mod slots for Fire Rate mods is a hassle to manage appropriately when you can just make use 85-90% from [Amalgam] Shotgun Spaz, or use a Riven with more Fire Rate by itself.

Frail Momentum as a -15% Damage +90% Fire Rate has no context at all today. It needs to be updated.