[The Outdated Parkour Thread] It Finally Happened! (Voice Your Opinion In The Poll!)

[Ryjeon]

Glad to see this thread's still alive and kicking.

I'd just like to point out that Aure7 is hardly proposing to make things easier. What he's proposing is to make things smoother. My main gripe with Warframe's wallrunning isn't that it's often unpredictable and counterintuitive, it's that it looks stiff and janky, and that contributes to the feeling of stiffness and whatnot as well. I'm not saying it's too difficult, I'm just saying that it's stiff.

 

I think that wanting to improve the system is fundamentally a good agenda. But if we're going to change things we should highlight the strengths as well as the weaknesses of the current system so that we can keep in mind what we'd like to see built upon. Rather than fixing something that might not be broken. So I'm just trying to give my perspective since I'm a big fan of the current system. I don't want to lose the quirks and charms and even the challenges of overcoming the current system's shortcomings.

[ExplodingStars]

Glad to see this thread's still alive and kicking.

I'd just like to point out that Aure7 is hardly proposing to make things easier. What he's proposing is to make things smoother. My main gripe with Warframe's wallrunning isn't that it's often unpredictable and counterintuitive, it's that it looks stiff and janky, and that contributes to the feeling of stiffness and whatnot as well. I'm not saying it's too difficult, I'm just saying that it's stiff.

Not only does Wall running  feels rigid as hell but the currently existing maps don't facilitate much Parkour or any wall running. 

The need to wall run should extend well beyond just getting to a secret location hardly anyone cares about, but a necessity to complete missions. 

[DocHolliday13]

I only read the OP because I didn't really need to read anything else. Most of what he lists were already things that bugged me, and the rest will now. Thanks OP!

 

Anyhow, +1x infinity

[Nkomo-Sama]

Yes, I am giving my opinion. My experience is quite different than the OPs. Playing this game was a revelation to me about how good games can be control-wise. And the Parkour is a large reason why I kept playing and pushing myself to improve month after month.  I do not have problem utilizing the game's movement system as an extension of myself. It fits me like a glove. And as I tried to suggest in my post, maybe it's just the year of experience, or the fact that I changed my control scheme to support a parkour heavy combat system. (Sprint is my left mouse button).

 

For a bit a reference here's a video of my playstyle. http://www.twitch.tv/ryjeon/c/3951022/popout

 

I utilize movement "chains" With almost constant quick slides to get extra range out of melee strikes, and to always be in a stance to respond. Perhaps the OP and others who do not like the "auto" roll don't comprehend the quirks and strengths of the current movement system.

 

TLDR; I play like a ninja, so can you

I watched the first 25 minutes of that video and I will admit you have learned to use the slide/copter technique to benefit you. I take it that is your style. Canceling into slash dash is also a good mobility tool I use as well.You have also adapted to the incomplete parkour system as well, near the 8 min and 25 min mark were decent to observe. The truth is these systems are still incomplete and could use some tlc. Playable yes. Incomplete yes.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Nkomo-Sama

[Ryjeon]

I watched the first 25 minutes of that video and I will admit you have learned to use the slide/copter technique to benefit you. I take it that is your style. Canceling into slash dash is also a good mobility tool I use as well.You have also adapted to the incomplete parkour system as well, near the 8 min and 25 min mark were decent to observe. The truth is these systems are still incomplete and could use some tlc. Playable yes. Incomplete yes.

 

Thank you. I don't play perfectly or consistently. But I can see myself learning new things constantly. It's sort of like getting comfortable doing solos on a guitar. The whole might be sloppy and amateurish, but it might have interesting phrases and elements that can be worked on over time. And even if I can't play the music perfectly, I can "hear" it and see how it could go. And I just want to give that credit to the system and the devs who have crafted it. It feels great.

[taiiat]

I can "hear" it and see how it could go.

ah! yes, now i see how it makes sense to you.

 

even with these imperfect systems i can imagine what's going on if they were, and it is indeed a swell feeling, and i certainly hope that the mechanics will be polished further over time.

 

Parkour is far from... horrible as it stands, but despite my enjoyment of relatively fluid and quick movement around in combat and exploring, i know there's some issues ranging from serious to minor that really break the flow of things. 

 

 

but, yes. the only thing i would consider to have a wider freedom of movement over Warframe, would be Overgrowth - which is a completely different style, and it doesn't have Firearms and powers, etc to fit into the scope of the design, it's 100% all out for parkour and melee, and nothing else. which does mean that those two factors can be truly amazing. but other titles which aren't quite as completely focused on just those two features, ultimately will never be able to practically be quite as amazing, there's other things  which get in the way. and that's acceptable.

 

however, advanced movement in Warframe consists of a lot of timing and experienctual instinct, rather than going by feel or visual input.which we can and should work on.

[Aure7]

@ Aure7

 

I say it's close to perfection because that's what it feels like to me. I'm very satisfied when I play this game at my peak performance. That satisfaction is the greatest indicator of perfection I can think of as far as any given person's gaming objectives.

 

The fact that I often miss my jumps and animation cancels in no way detracts from this satisfaction. In fact it makes it even more satisfying when I do connect with the jumps that I am aiming for. Or when the "sticky" wall-run mechanics surprises me with a new and interesting path.  It can be difficult, but it's not impossible to have perfect control and knowledge of the game's systems and your characters movement. So I do not support making things easier when it's already so dynamic and interesting.

 

I apologize for my poor grammar and paragraph structure. I am fatigued.

 

And merry F*** you!

 

@ ExplodingStars

 

You and I may perceive a different notion of fluidity. Because playing this game feels like the very definition of fluidity. It's like surfing. You aren't 100% in control of the wave. You exist in a state of suspension and then guide yourself in collaboration with the wave's structure. Within the bounds of that structure there is elegant fluidity.

 

This thread is a bunch of people wishing to change the wave. And I am suggesting you change the surfer.

 

 

I think that wanting to improve the system is fundamentally a good agenda. But if we're going to change things we should highlight the strengths as well as the weaknesses of the current system so that we can keep in mind what we'd like to see built upon. Rather than fixing something that might not be broken. So I'm just trying to give my perspective since I'm a big fan of the current system. I don't want to lose the quirks and charms and even the challenges of overcoming the current system's shortcomings.

 

 

Oh sorry it seems underlined parts are easy to miss these days, let me try again to post what I've said in my previous post:

not encouraging to suddenly change the entire style of it in a way that will destroy any combos or moves people got used to by now.

I saw nothing in the video you couldn't execute with the "less sticky" parkour that I imagine and try to put out in this thread.

 

And this crap about surfing...?  So basically a random mess of code that accepts inputs in bizarre ways and reacts in ways that are unpredictable to human will still be fine because some random dude will become master of it even though it doesn't make sense? That random mess of code will be "near perfect" because someone now can handle that mess of code that doesn't make sense to anyone else? Warframe is not a "mess of code" but sometimes things happen in a similar "messy" way.

 

Super meat boy - everyone praises it for it's perfect controls and feel of the movement. All the precise actions are very easy to memorize, player very quickly gets the perfect sense of the movement and every time they fail, they feel what's wrong, they know how to do better. Now as the most basic example imagine there is a 10% chance you will fail to latch to a wall an slide it, and instead you fall down. (or fail to do a basic jump, whatever). Suddenly you can never be sure your planned moves will execute precisely as you thought it out. You start failing in levels where you thought you will beat it but your character just didn't move exactly how you expected it to move at that rare occasion. Your common sense just tells that in such platformer latching on a wall should ALWAYS succeed if it's clearly possible in the game rules. Now suddenly someone comes and because of pure dedication and hours of gameplay, overcomes as much of this fail as possible. He becomes the master of this "flawed" system that has an average of 10% fail. Now let's say he fails only 3% of the time, (like you still do, as seen in your gameplay). But the rest of guys would still rather have 0 failures because of game systems, they would rather enjoy (and become masters of) the experience that reflects the most common sense of movement - momentum and such stuff. There are over 600 of these "rest of the guys" I am talking about, and you're the only one who are straight up saying 100% of this thread is bullS#&$.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Aure7

[Ryjeon]

@ Aure7 - I never implied that I thought this thread was 100% bullS#&$. That's your knee-jerk mob-mentality bully-the-dissenter reaction. What I've supplied is my opinion and my perspective.  Just because my opinion isn't the same as the mob doesn't mean that I have no validity. Nor does it mean that I am completely against reforming parkour. I'm just saying that it IS possible to have very precise control of your characters movement in the current system. And that I am satisfied with it.  And I tried to give some reasons as to why I don't have the same qualms with the movement system that you and others are having. Maybe I have more time invested, maybe my odd control scheme (mouse1 for sprint, thumb mouse button for toggle crouch, shift for aim) feels more intuitive than the default control set-up.

 

And after giving my opinion I was immediately accused of trolling and disrespected for daring to be contrary to what everyone "knows" to be true. When all I was trying to do was speak out about what I found core in the parkour system. Do I expect anybody to change their mind? No. But I decided to be a voice of dissent in something that I am passionate about.  I guess this is the wrong place. I'll let you and your 600 friends get back to your circle jerk.

[HolidayPi3]

@ Aure7 - I never implied that I thought this thread was 100% bullS#&$. That's your knee-jerk mob-mentality bully-the-dissenter reaction. What I've supplied is my opinion and my perspective.  Just because my opinion isn't the same as the mob doesn't mean that I have no validity. Nor does it mean that I am completely against reforming parkour. I'm just saying that it IS possible to have very precise control of your characters movement in the current system. And that I am satisfied with it.  And I tried to give some reasons as to why I don't have the same qualms with the movement system that you and others are having. Maybe I have more time invested, maybe my odd control scheme (mouse1 for sprint, thumb mouse button for toggle crouch, shift for aim) feels more intuitive than the default control set-up.

 

And after giving my opinion I was immediately accused of trolling and disrespected for daring to be contrary to what everyone "knows" to be true. When all I was trying to do was speak out about what I found core in the parkour system. Do I expect anybody to change their mind? No. But I decided to be a voice of dissent in something that I am passionate about.  I guess this is the wrong place. I'll let you and your 600 friends get back to your circle jerk.

Not entirely sure why you're going off on the OP so hard. He was never the one that accused you of trolling, nor did he say that your opinion was invalid / disrespect you until you posted "Merry F*** you!" which was pretty unwarranted. You're both clearly passionate about the parkour system and enjoy it as a key element of the game-- he's just trying to advocate for added flexibility and flow.

I too understand the draws of having a very twitchy feeling movement system that involves numerous unconventional button presses (IE animation cancelling) in order to squeeze every last bit of movement from actions. It's those sorts of things that separates people who have taken the time to master the system (whether or not it's flawed) and those who haven't. It's a sort of thing that you can take pride in and it just feels nice to use.

But IMO, if you're watching what the characters look like in game-- it's... odd. It feels ninja when you do it, but it doesn't look the part at all. It's out of place watching a character butt-slide left and right and suddenly flip into a helicopter mid air to gain a sudden speed boost in a direction at right angles from his previous position. Usually to get on a ledge that's just above you because the parkour system wouldn't allow you to switch directions when running up a wall.

And even when you have gotten a good grasp on the parkour system to the points where you can correct your flight paths midway and land with a melee ground-pound animation cancel, there are still annoying things like auto-roll. Hek, the main reason I use that ground slam is to get my character to stop auto-rolling every 3 foot drop. On top of that-- coptering (if that's even part of the parkour system) isn't very consistent. With my Fang Primes, sometime's I'll launch ultra far. Other times I'll move maybe 2 feet. Though this does feel more consistent when I use my Pangolin. Regardless, it's another topic for another day. I think the fact that we even have to use the melee slide as a means of movement in order to get the parkour system to flow is a problem in of itself. But different strokes for different folks.

[-FrostByte-]

I'm a no one but I approve of this thread.

Edited March 26, 2014 by n0lyfe

[Onihikage]

When I was a newbie, I thought the parkour system was the most fun thing. It actually surprised me when I learned of all that it was capable of, but some of the flaws in it had me confused at first. You know those rooms where the way forward is up the wall and through a ceiling fan? Ever had it fail to wall-run the first few times you do it? Yeah, that had me confused, since any other time I'd tried to wall-run had been instantly responsive and natural. In all that time, there are STILL walls I find which I should be able to run right up, but I can't - sometimes just humping the wall forever just because of small imperfections in the shape of the wall.

 

As a veteran player, I feel like Warframe's parkour is just too stiff for the super-badass ultimate warrior that I'm supposed to be playing as. Honestly, we should be able to stand on the walls or even the ceiling just as an innate ability of our Warframe, at least the frames that have idles which would indicate great control over their surroundings, like when Mag levitates kunai, or when Nyx levitates her whole body. Would be nice to jump, land on the wall, and be standing sideways, or sneak around enemies by running around on the ceiling, dropping down on them like Batman. :3

Edited March 26, 2014 by Onihikage

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

so if i understand this right, i made a diagram showing what you've said.

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=645261585541167&l=5855954448220006432

 

Actually, more like that.

 

That is me going in "one" direction up a wall diagonally.   (not zigzagging back and forth).

 

It was a pain to get a video of it since Sony only recently fixed the record function.

Edited March 26, 2014 by (PS4)ariaandkia

[taiiat]

Actually, more like that.

 - you tricked me into going to Facebook. well played.

 

- that makes sense, but seems overly complicated since you could just wallrun vertically up. but if your starting point was horizontally not where you wanted to reach the top, then it would be useful.

[(PSN)ariaandkia]

 - you tricked me into going to Facebook. well played.

 

- that makes sense, but seems overly complicated since you could just wallrun vertically up. but if your starting point was horizontally not where you wanted to reach the top, then it would be useful.

 

Yes, it is really more for when the target location isn't straight up.

 

You can also zigzag a little for bypassing obstacles.

 

Like up, hit obstacle, left, up, right, up.

Edited March 26, 2014 by (PS4)ariaandkia

[PookieNumnums]

i feel like you tried hard and did well. id give your post a B- because of great effort and assets. Yet, i feel like you must use controller, and not fully understand how to use the techniques.

Lower the amount of "auto roll". learn to land in slide. or land out of a jumpkick.

Game is horrible at detecting irregular walls. you werent supposed to get up the incline.

Vaulting should keep the momentum you had before doing it- agreed

Vault is horrible on anything bigger than fence or railing. you can jump over those things. karate kick knows all.

Ledge grab with a roll on top should not initiate when grabbing a railing. its called style bro.

Jump key should be "grab" key when mid-air. no, jump should be double jump cuz ninja. grab should be seperate :)

"Overgrowth".... just no (unless its level design, then yes)

change your wallrun direction- you can. its not easy. i wouldnt mind the wall run following my reticle.

Wallruns need better chaining from wall to wall- you need practice and to find better 'lines'

Make wallrun jumps more controllable. they are. you just gotta know how. there is wall launch and wall jump. if you instantly let go after initiating a wall run you fly far. If you jump out after more than a few steps youre not going far. It also depends on how fast youre moving. It doesnt take a vet to figure out how the game works. Put crouch on mouse four or five. Then you can zoren out of wall launches in perpendicular angles. Put on sprint boost and fury and rush, and youre good to go.

here you can see how hard it is to finish a wall run smoothly- thats a horrible example. you need practice

You should be able to jump freely from vertical wallruns- i agree we should be able to jump out without doing a backflip

Ability to slide down walls from a jump- you can but you run up first. they should only climb when holding jump AND forward?

Constant sliding around and zorencoptering are breaking the feel of the game- i feel as tho they are integral techniques to mastering the ninja mobility. any player can use them. depending on style, your melee will allow you to do things within their limit.

Veteran players get used to tapping "crouch" key to repeatedly gain free momentum- um... gravity.. and you can just wall launch off of everything, its faster, land in slide, repeat as needed

Edited March 26, 2014 by T4LCOMX

[Rompido]

Wall of Text crits you for over 9000.

 

your eyes start to bleed,

And then

you die.

[Aure7]

i feel like you tried hard and did well. id give your post a B- because of great effort and assets. Yet, i feel like you must use controller, and not fully understand how to use the techniques.

Lower the amount of "auto roll". learn to land in slide. or land out of a jumpkick.

Game is horrible at detecting irregular walls. you werent supposed to get up the incline.

Vaulting should keep the momentum you had before doing it- agreed

Vault is horrible on anything bigger than fence or railing. you can jump over those things. karate kick knows all.

Ledge grab with a roll on top should not initiate when grabbing a railing. its called style bro.

Jump key should be "grab" key when mid-air. no, jump should be double jump cuz ninja. grab should be seperate :)

"Overgrowth".... just no (unless its level design, then yes)

change your wallrun direction- you can. its not easy. i wouldnt mind the wall run following my reticle.

Wallruns need better chaining from wall to wall- you need practice and to find better 'lines'

Make wallrun jumps more controllable. they are. you just gotta know how. there is wall launch and wall jump. if you instantly let go after initiating a wall run you fly far. If you jump out after more than a few steps youre not going far. It also depends on how fast youre moving. It doesnt take a vet to figure out how the game works. Put crouch on mouse four or five. Then you can zoren out of wall launches in perpendicular angles. Put on sprint boost and fury and rush, and youre good to go.

here you can see how hard it is to finish a wall run smoothly- thats a horrible example. you need practice

You should be able to jump freely from vertical wallruns- i agree we should be able to jump out without doing a backflip

Ability to slide down walls from a jump- you can but you run up first. they should only climb when holding jump AND forward?

Constant sliding around and zorencoptering are breaking the feel of the game- i feel as tho they are integral techniques to mastering the ninja mobility. any player can use them. depending on style, your melee will allow you to do things within their limit.

Veteran players get used to tapping "crouch" key to repeatedly gain free momentum- um... gravity.. and you can just wall launch off of everything, its faster, land in slide, repeat as needed

- I can land perfectly fine with slide, still no reason to force roll where it doesn't make sense.

- We are mother@(*()$ ninjas we sure as hell are supposed to get up those kind of inclines

- and vaulting automatically triggers when you're jumping close to something, so better make it work and in the end it would look awesome.

- double jump would the stupidest thing after coptering...

- I can chain them, but they might as well make the animations and transitions smoother, more reliable.

- no they are not controllable, I only get to choose between 2 launch speeds and the direction is very very barely changeable when you jump. Also jump length is affected way too much by the sprint speed. I guess you just don't realize the potential of better walljumps.

[Dairkrinn]

This. The  game needs this so bad.

Why can't I upvote this more than once ?

[Deidaku]

I hope DE add this in U14...it needs a revamp ..bad

[DJ_Redwire]

[Vheraun]

As I said to your other post as well,
 

 

Yes. Yesyesyes. Yes.

 

 

If these two posts of yours were taken into consideration and implemented, it would bring Warframe close to perfection, technically-wise. The most annoying thing in this game is trying to do something along the lines of the things you mentioned, and failing for no apparent reason.

 

I know that the DE crew want to tackle the important issues, I just don't know if they consider this an important one. So, bring this to their attention, everybody.

[auxy]

If these two posts of yours were taken into consideration and implemented, it would bring Warframe close to perfection, technically-wise. The most annoying thing in this game is trying to do something along the lines of the things you mentioned, and failing for no apparent reason.

 

I know that the DE crew want to tackle the important issues, I just don't know if they consider this an important one. So, bring this to their attention, everybody.

Signed. This is the most important issue in Warframe after Melee 2.0.

[CBAROG]

All of my +1.

[CosyPigeon]

All of my yes. Time to focus on core game play mechanics instead of just more power creep weapons and mods. Parkour is one of the reasons I founded, when I saw you could wall run for the first time, I was absurdly excited, but after experiencing it in game, I was disappointed, but optimistic that it was just a place holder and would be improved over time, but those improvements haven't come, and this is way overdue. 
 

Of the 3 core game play mechanics that make up warframe (shooting, melee, and movement) movement is by far the most important to get right. Movement is what makes this game ninja, without it this game is just another 3rd person action game that's a bit prettier than the others. Don't tell us it can't be done, we already know it's possible because we've seen it, and played it, if the 2 underfunded guys at Overgrowth can do it, then DE can with their talented well funded studio. If Respawn can do it, DE can do it. 

Also, if\when DE implements this, don't attach it to some mod that you can only access by grinding your way through some new part of the void FFS. 

[ThePresident777]

Warframe has more than 3 core game mechanics.  Nukes are also a core game mechanic.  Which, is a big draw for me especially spamming them.  Let's not turn Warframe into just another game with different skins.

 

But, yes, movement needs a lot of help.  It lacks fluidity in some instances and speed.  There is too much loss of control, too much rolling.  The rolls are too slow.  Movement and firing weapons interrupt each other.  Also, there are many instances where the movement does not fit he game because of it's lack of urgency.  For example, there is a long pause at the end of hacking a terminal, even if you are totally surrounded and getting beat on mercilessly.  That makes no sense.  There should never be a pause at the end of the use function.  Ninjas are not sluggish or jerky.