[The Outdated Parkour Thread] It Finally Happened! (Voice Your Opinion In The Poll!)

[SSC-47]

Great suggestions though at this point I'm rather doubtful any of them will be implemented, on account of the fact that DE already added so many mechanics to encourage coptering.

[Aspari]

Great suggestions though at this point I'm rather doubtful any of them will be implemented, on account of the fact that DE already added so many mechanics to encourage coptering.

Like what? Coptering is and has always been just an exploit. They have made no efforts to convert it to an actual mechanic that I am aware of.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Aspari

[Rakshal]

Awesome suggestions, these would make parkour so much better! Also, nice job using Overgrowth as that is a great example of a good parkour system.

[(PSN)theelix]

Like what? Coptering is and has always been just an exploit. They have made no efforts to convert it to an actual mechanic that I am aware of.

By ignoring it, they've silently condone it's use. 

Then they make directional melee, which could synergize with coptering. 

They've crippled Parkour, as the infinite wallrun glitch is basically a vertical copter to me. I mean, it allows you to get up walls faster. That was it. They didn't have to remove it to stop people from getting to places they shouldn't, they could've just but a barrier in places where they're not supposed to be. 

[DSpite]

Like what? Coptering is and has always been just an exploit. They have made no efforts to convert it to an actual mechanic that I am aware of.

 

Coptering is not an exploit. In game definition, an exploit is "using a game mechanic in a way not intended by the game designers". Go tell DE that people are "exploiting" via coptering, see how far that gets you.

 

Coptering for movement was emergent gameplay, and DE is allowing it. They could have removed it or changed it already, they have not. They know every one does it to some extent, and are leaving it as is.

 

Then again, since "nothing we say will change your point of view" then common sense is wasted on you, is it not?

 

"Parkour" in Warframe does not exist. It's something humans do to jump a desk. The longest human wall run was around 3 meters and looked pathetic.

 

A coordinated team will just use a Nova to Worm Hole everywhere, not ask for individual "magical movement powers" like ice skating, and certainly not ask for more fake mechanics to do wall hugging.

[Aspari]

Coptering is not an exploit. In game definition, an exploit is "using a game mechanic in a way not intended by the game designers".

 

 

 

DE allowing it doesn't make it any less of an exploit.

 

 

"Parkour" in Warframe does not exist.

Are you even trying anymore? We're done talking.

[taiiat]

 

DE allowing it doesn't make it any less of an exploit.

Coptering was a Bug, and has since been specifically attempted to create a new feature out of it, finding inability to, and then reverting Coptering back to it's original bug state in the programming, but creating hidden 'Coptering' stats for Melee's to allow it to be involved in Balancing and keeping things in check.

[Aspari]

Coptering was a Bug, and has since been specifically attempted to create a new feature out of it, finding inability to, and then reverting Coptering back to it's original bug state in the programming, but creating hidden 'Coptering' stats for Melee's to allow it to be involved in Balancing and keeping things in check.

Ah. This makes sense since they did state that they want to keep it. Still, it was never designed by DE, just like K-Style wasn't designed by MAIET when they made GunZ: The Duel. MAIET did the same thing with K-Style like what DE is trying to do with coptering, and it became the highlight of their game because regular melee was poorly implemented and the steps involved in K-Style produced the most speed in the game. In Warframe's case, it's just the latter.

 

Now, I bet coptering would make a lot more sense and look a lot better over time. Right now "coptering weapons" just outdo all other forms of speed, which I don't like. But that's a completely separate issue from parkour.

[taiiat]

Now, I bet coptering would make a lot more sense and look a lot better over time.

hopefully someday it will. they did already attempt to create Coptering on purpose, but found themselves unable to create it on purpose that felt right, so we're now using the bug in the programming as a feature, lol.

but hopefully someday it can be reproduced on purpose and we can have a similar system like it that flows with the game better.

[Aspari]

hopefully someday it will. they did already attempt to create Coptering on purpose, but found themselves unable to create it on purpose that felt right, so we're now using the bug in the programming as a feature, lol.

but hopefully someday it can be reproduced on purpose and we can have a similar system like it that flows with the game better.

Sounds about right. MAIET tried their hardest to replicate K-Style so it could be an actual feature instead of an exploit in their next game. They failed horribly. Here's to hoping coptering gets itself into proper feature status and gets itself a better name.

[EndCrab]

I disagree with nerfing the wall bounce. I use it a lot more than the wall run and find it very controllable. The momentum increase from it is good enough that I can incorporate it into my paths when coptering, as well.

[rockscl]

gettiong self propeled in mid air involves oxium, theres no oxium involved in coptering, thus its broken in any way you try to look at it, however, im more concerned about air melee, wich i hope gets its momentum killed after the strike is done, so its used just to kill air enemies and not to fly around

[(PSN)theelix]

Coptering is not an exploit. In game definition, an exploit is "using a game mechanic in a way not intended by the game designers". Go tell DE that people are "exploiting" via coptering, see how far that gets you.

 

Coptering for movement was emergent gameplay, and DE is allowing it. They could have removed it or changed it already, they have not. They know every one does it to some extent, and are leaving it as is.

 

Then again, since "nothing we say will change your point of view" then common sense is wasted on you, is it not?

 

"Parkour" in Warframe does not exist. It's something humans do to jump a desk. The longest human wall run was around 3 meters and looked pathetic.

 

A coordinated team will just use a Nova to Worm Hole everywhere, not ask for individual "magical movement powers" like ice skating, and certainly not ask for more fake mechanics to do wall hugging.

 not ask for individual "magical movement powers" like ice skating, and certainly not ask for more fake mechanics to do wall hugging.

A coordinated team will just use a Nova to Worm Hole everywhere

 

Is a Worm Hole not a Magical movement power? You're calling something that very well does exist on different planets, just like the double jump does on planets with thick atmospheres, a "fake mechanic" yet you bring up someone who is creating Worm Holes, something that is only hypothetical entirely, as a non-fake mechanic?

 

It makes more sense to ask that we all have something to get somewhere instead of forcing everyone to use one playstyle and every Nova to have one build for movement and M. Prime and to always be tied to the butts of three other people. 

[DrThunder]

I am not sure if you are WAY better than me at parkour or WAY worse, because I can easily get around most of the obstacles you are talking about but at the same time I can see the point of some of these changes.

[DSpite]

DE allowing it doesn't make it any less of an exploit.

 

Are you even trying anymore? We're done talking.

 

Aspari : "Some of you may also disagree with me on this one as well, and my opinion isn't going to change no matter what your reasoning is."

 

Yea, give me attitude, when your responses comes down to "I will not change my opinion even if shown evidence that proves I'm totally wrong". Also post player made pictures that have nothing to do with reality, and made up by people to support their own agenda, and feel free to live in your magical world of pixies and sunshine, where you rule as king. I'd gift you a crown, but alas, they are not sold in the Warframe market.

 

We have missions where DE specifically puts items behind Invasion missions, missions that TIME OUT and have to be done MULTIPLE TIMES.

 

Feel free to "parkour" around the map, while we try and get them done as fast as possible, before they close.

 

DE allowing coptering means it's "working within their allowed parameters" as I'm pretty sure they ban people for "exploting".

 

But then, we have proven your ability to discuss opinions is compromised, if you are totally unwilling to have your opinion changed, so if your attitude is really "my way or nothing", then well, we were not talking, you were talking, and just ignoring everyone else.

 

Putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "lalalalala EXPLOIT !!!" does not make it one.

[Aspari]

Yea, give me attitude, when your responses comes down to "I will not change my opinion even if shown evidence that proves I'm totally wrong".

Except that you haven't given any evidence that holds any weight. Period. Coptering was not designed. DE even tried replicating it as a legit mechanic and has failed to do so thus far. It's been proven that coptering is not a designed feature, which was part of the original topic. Directional melee has no reason to give you so much mobility either. Do I really need to bring up my Red Faction: Guerrilla example again? Or did you just completely disregard it because it's a prime example on how aerial melee should work? At least that game does direction melee the right way. My opinion on this topic isn't changing because the facts have been laid out already.

 

Even if it's working within DE's parameters, that still doesn't make it any less than an exploit. Now it's being treated as an acceptable mechanic even though it's not at all something DE designed. It's a bug. An accident. Your failure to acknowledge that is of no consequence to me or anyone else in this thread.

 

Feel free to keep downplaying parkour, though. Even if coptering and directional melee didn't exist in the first place, parkour still isn't as good as it should be. Whether or not my opinion is the same as yours as far as coptering and directional melee goes is completely irrelevant.

 

We have missions where DE specifically puts items behind Invasion missions, missions that TIME OUT and have to be done MULTIPLE TIMES.

 

Where were you even going with this one? You can complete all five invasion missions and still have plenty of time to spare even if you don't use coptering or a Warframe that runs fast. Those missions aren't timed in-game, and if you miss the invasion then that's because you weren't online at a reasonable time to complete them. Same thing goes for regular alerts. If you don't make it, sucks to be you. Those invasions pop up often enough and they stay up for quite a long time.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Aspari

[Omnimorph]

Late to the party but love the OP suggestions.

 

Parkour is one of the great things in this game that makes it stands out, and it's a fun thing to try and master, but it needs to be expanded upon, made better all round, and some of the OP suggestions are fantastic.

 

Re. coptering, I think it's absurd, and a big mistake to keep it in the game.

 

Basically, I want a game to be realistic in terms of physics - BUT, because of limitations such as map size, etc., and other requirements (missions that are relatively easy for a mixture of strangers to complete relatively quickly, etc.), the "realism" has to be compressed (abstracted) both spatially and temporally, scaled up or down to suit those aforementioned limitations and keep the whole thing fun and making you feel uber (once you've practiced).

 

Basically, you want an imitation of physics that's tailored so that things behave for the most part as you'd expect them to behave, but bearing in mind that most people don't actually have experience of real life parkour/ninja stuff.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Omnimorph

[tmtke]

Directional melee is a good idea, just badly executed. This current mechanic is just directional coptering without having any control over it, only an additional direction added. I'm currently using it for jumping on top of things I wasn't able before, and that is bad, because I think most of us doing this instead of using it for actual melee attacks.

 

The more refined solution should incorporate 'frame speed, melee weapon weight (or a value something similar to that), actual velocity, actual target distance in the trajectory calculations. 

 

It's okay for me if a Rhino would like to dir. melee with a galatine, just make it seem logical within the bounds of the hi-tech sci-fi universe warframe has. For example you want to dir. melee an osprey, the Rhino will launch itself into the air, sweeping his Galatine in a brutal arc. But it should be slower than a Dual Zoren, the jump should cover shorter distance and a more curved trajectory. If you do this from a slide and a jump at the end, the jump will have more velocity, therefore a longer range, but the speed of the swing remains.

[ThePresident777]

I was testing out some coptoring issues.  Sometimes I would coptor into a wall and end up parkouring.  Sometimes I would coptor into a wall and end up NOT parkouring.  It was not controllable, it was accidental, random, not a matter of skill.  So, there is no conflict between parkour and coptoring or directional melee.  The conflict comes from the maps and the movement system (be it parkour or otherwise) not being compatible.  Just like the ice excavation maps and the infested ship maps look very beautiful but are a nightmare of clunk and frustration to traverse because the movement system and the map do not cooperate.  They do not work together.  Either the movement system has to be able to handle terrain details or the terrain has to have less detail because at the moment it's not fluid.  It's a clunky and glitchy experience.

Edited December 9, 2014 by ThePresident777

[taiiat]

Either the movement system has to be able to handle terrain details or the terrain has to have less detail because at the moment it's not fluid.  It's a clunky and glitchy experience.

building Level Design with movement in mind is a fairly simple process.

Clipping planes to simplify very complicated surfaces makes them usable for gameplay and disturbs the looks of things as little as possible.

 

even more complicated Clipping planes that angle out to cover busy surfaces to simplify them so we can say, wallrun over them in a more practical sense.

[HazaRD-WARRIOR]

Did this topic always have the name "and the current directional melee is killing it even further" or was it added?

 

Just wanted to point out that directional melee is not killing parkour. At all. Parkour is killing parkour because it needs to be a little tweaked and above all stages need to be rigged in ways that allow for more of it to be used.

 

Yes, we can jump into the air a million times higher than expected. This is awesome. However, it needs to be tweaked, its a little too much at the moment. I can jump so high with my Orthos it renders the third skill of Excalibur useless (the jumping thing). Woooow, I can jump higher with a skill and activate heavy thingy what its called when I land? Now that must wonderful, especially since I can jump ten times that height with directional melee.

 

Things need to be tweaked to accompany this (directional melee). Not to get rid of it. The formula should not be changed (the whole thing based on speed) because if they nerf that there are weapons that are completely hopeless and you cannot use them for this gameplay (try Jat Kitag... the thing will not propel you far away).

 

They need to create a limit. That is all. And it should be a pretty high limit, just not unlimited. I like the Orthos jumping range as is, and the Dragon Nikana too which seems less. But those Dual Kammas..... Oh my god can they be annoying sometimes. I simply want to do an slide attack in the air guys, not end up on the other side of the map. I kid you not, I have used the Dual Kammas and sometimes its as if they glitch and I simply fly uncontrollably away. Try the Venus Ice Planet tileset. At the end when you get to extraction. The short one has a round platform to jump on. The long one has another 2 after that. I jumped with sliding directional attack and Dual Kammas on the top of the rocky path at the start and completely overshot the third landing spot.

 

Same planet, extraction that has an elevator to two landing spots. Overshot those too from the top of the icy path again.

 

That is absurd. It isn't killing parkour, parkour would never be used there to begin with. It is simply killing directional attacks. They need to have a limit to their range. Which should be large and still fun.

 

Ultimately, parkour can then be used together with this. They are two different things. With wall running you can go around corners, you cannot with directional melee. You can also jump behind tight spots, the momentum from directional melee does not allow that. Also, there are obstacles in many places and I use directional melee to jump straight at them, cling on or climb up, then continue.

 

Parkour is just fine with all this. And all the people complaining that directional melee is killing it, well, I keep getting myself in stages were people are coptering around as if its a race, and they still fall behind. Why? Because they fail half the time to realise the basic structure of certain maps. Like the corpus ships on the bridges. At points directional melee can help there, sometimes however it simply does not, and you need parkour. Same as some parts in the Jupiter tileset.

 

End of the day the "directional melee is killing parkour" guys end up trying to find a way to were I got simply because they don't know how to use parkour.

 

Stages need to be adjusted, not the directional melee changed (a limit to its distance yes, but that is to actually make it more usable not less, cause at the moment sing it with dual kammas is like asking to jump off the planet and into orbit). That doesn't ruin parkour again, it ruins directional melee, which is cool being used and these distances etc are awesome when used right. A limit should be applied to make it, well, more usable. Stages should be (as in a previous post of mine) implemented with more locations that simply favour parkour and the environment should be used to do this. What good is jumping high if you have ledges over your head for example? However, with jumping high and then running up a wall, all is good, and there is simply something awesome about a Tenno flying into the air.

 

They are damn space ninjas. I should think they can do some freaky things like that. I love it. Just add a cap to its distance, let it still have a big distance, and have parkour usable in locations for jumping off walls or changing your direction in the air, etc. Directional melee should also have more momentum, I've seen some people that can change direction a lot with some weapons during coptering. This should be allowed but tweaked. I am thinking this is a bug, mine usually carries the momentum and does not allow me to in the end fly around the stage like I am Tails from Sonic.

 

Some tweaks, but they should not make directional melee less awesome! Just more user friendly.

 

As I said, ultimately making it be used even more.

 

Whiners can whine from there on. No-one is forcing them to play like this. You want to run across a chasm because your weapon cant copter far or because you don't like directional melee? Then use parkour, simple. No need to get rid of it from all the people that enjoy using it, and neither from the people that enjoy both parkour and directional melee.

 

Again, they are space ninjas and if it was up to some people we would end up getting another mainstream game and all that awesomeness taken out.

 

TL:DR-

 

Tweaked? Yes.

Nerfed? No.

[Tyson127]

+1

[Aspari]

Did this topic always have the name "and the current directional melee is killing it even further" or was it added?

 

Just wanted to point out that directional melee is not killing parkour. At all. Parkour is killing parkour because it needs to be a little tweaked and above all stages need to be rigged in ways that allow for more of it to be used.

 

This was only stated because Directional Melee was applied as a band-aid to the mobility problem more than it was for actually hitting aerial targets.

 

What we needed was this:

 

 

What we got was this:

 

 

Not to mention that Direction Melee as it is now can get you stuck in geometry if you actually try hitting cameras with it.

 

 Now that must wonderful, especially since I can jump ten times that height with directional melee.

 

Things need to be tweaked to accompany this (directional melee). Not to get rid of it. The formula should not be changed (the whole thing based on speed) because if they nerf that there are weapons that are completely hopeless and you cannot use them for this gameplay (try Jat Kitag... the thing will not propel you far away).

When are you ever going to need to jump that high in Warframe anyway? I've played every map Warframe has and not once did I need to jump higher than what Direction Melee alone with any melee weapon couldn't take me.

 

This point is moot since changing the formula would actually make Direction Melee a lot easier to use against aerial targets. Not to mention that this is the absolute wrong way to address mobility issues on slower frames, or mobility in general.

 

 

That is absurd. It isn't killing parkour, parkour would never be used there to begin with. It is simply killing directional attacks. They need to have a limit to their range. Which should be large and still fun.

 

Ultimately, parkour can then be used together with this. They are two different things. With wall running you can go around corners, you cannot with directional melee. You can also jump behind tight spots, the momentum from directional melee does not allow that. Also, there are obstacles in many places and I use directional melee to jump straight at them, cling on or climb up, then continue.

 

It's killing parkour and it aborted its primary function with a secondary function that screws the user over, making it almost only useful for mobility which is what parkour was for.

 

Sure, you CAN use it together with parkour, but parkour should be good on its own and not rely on an unsound physics mechanic. (Physics in general need to be reworked.)

 

 

Parkour is just fine with all this. And all the people complaining that directional melee is killing it, well, I keep getting myself in stages were people are coptering around as if its a race, and they still fall behind. Why? Because they fail half the time to realise the basic structure of certain maps. Like the corpus ships on the bridges. At points directional melee can help there, sometimes however it simply does not, and you need parkour. Same as some parts in the Jupiter tileset.

 

End of the day the "directional melee is killing parkour" guys end up trying to find a way to were I got simply because they don't know how to use parkour.

 

Stages need to be adjusted, not the directional melee changed (a limit to its distance yes, but that is to actually make it more usable not less, cause at the moment sing it with dual kammas is like asking to jump off the planet and into orbit). That doesn't ruin parkour again, it ruins directional melee, which is cool being used and these distances etc are awesome when used right. A limit should be applied to make it, well, more usable. Stages should be (as in a previous post of mine) implemented with more locations that simply favour parkour and the environment should be used to do this. What good is jumping high if you have ledges over your head for example? However, with jumping high and then running up a wall, all is good, and there is simply something awesome about a Tenno flying into the air.

 

They are damn space ninjas. I should think they can do some freaky things like that. I love it. Just add a cap to its distance, let it still have a big distance, and have parkour usable in locations for jumping off walls or changing your direction in the air, etc. Directional melee should also have more momentum, I've seen some people that can change direction a lot with some weapons during coptering. This should be allowed but tweaked. I am thinking this is a bug, mine usually carries the momentum and does not allow me to in the end fly around the stage like I am Tails from Sonic.

 

Whiners can whine from there on. No-one is forcing them to play like this. You want to run across a chasm because your weapon cant copter far or because you don't like directional melee? Then use parkour, simple. No need to get rid of it from all the people that enjoy using it, and neither from the people that enjoy both parkour and directional melee.

 

Again, they are space ninjas and if it was up to some people we would end up getting another mainstream game and all that awesomeness taken out.

 

 

 

Again, an issue parkour alone should solve.

 

Nobody ever does that.

 

Agreed with stage adjustments.

 

Matter of opinion. Personally, I dislike everything about the current directional melee. It functions but it doesn't function in a sensible or practical way.

 

Until Coptering is -actually- a legitimate mechanic and stops functioning like an exploit, that's not something that should be used in this discussion. Coptering is purely a bug that either needs to be developed from the ground up as a mechanic or removed from the game. The mobility issue to make slow frames able to keep up with their faster team mates is a completely different issue and is not relative to the functionality of parkour. Parkour was actually programmed by DE and it doesn't work as well as it should.

 

I agree that ninjas should be expected to be able to do some freaky stuff, but this is also a matter of opinion. Freaky shouldn't equate to "I can do this at the cost of breaking all logic to the point of having the immersion shattered."

 

Again, matter of opinion. In my opinion, Directional Melee's concept has no reason to contribute to the "awesome factor." It's for making Sword Alone more user friendly (fact, confirmed by devs), but instead it makes the task it was initial for (hitting mid-air enemies) even more cumbersome (result of using it in-game) and is better used for getting around in ways parkour couldn't take you.

 

 

Fully agree with tweaks.

Parkour needs to work a lot better.

Directional melee is a bandaid that should have never been done the way it's being done right now. While it's enjoyable for some, something else that addresses mobility should have been implemented that makes sense, doesn't overshadow another mechanic, is really fun to look at, and is really fun to use. What I just described isn't what the current Directional Melee is.

[vTenten]

+ 1 !!! :)

[Senuska]

I think there is some friction created when "exploit" is used. I know from other online games I play it is generally considered akin to cheating/hacking. That said coptering is an exploit, not because it is close to cheating, but because it was an oversight by the developers. 

 

Now I whole hardily agree that parkour needs a major rework, but I have a question about the fundamental animation system used in Warframe: Is the character's position determined separately from the animations, or do the animations influence the character's position? I know the Unity engine and Unreal have a system where the animations can influence the world position of the character. I think it is called root motion or some thing similar 

 

In the Overgrowth example the animations are done separately from the actual movement, and are just visually synced to make it look like the animation moved the character. If Warframe uses root motion then changing parkour is a huge under taking. The amount of systems in the game affected by the animation system is huge, and changing some thing that close to the base line would break a lot of stuff. Overgrowth had the benefit of designing and implementing their system from the beginning; however, Warframe does not have that luxury. 

 

Of course that whole argument depends on what type of animation system they use, if it doesn't use root motion it would not be as hard to implement. The amount of work would still be considerable, but much less than having to deal with root motion.