Why I stopped spending money in this game

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

MR was used as a example to some what accurately chart how long someone has been playing/how much of the game someone has interacted with. 

It doesn't. What part of that don't you grasp? All it shows is how many crap tier weapons we have levelled, and how many tests we bothered to do. 

With plat and cheese players can get pretty high MR rapidly, so your metric is not valid. 

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I was in no way indicating that a lower MR player was to be treated less and you've entirely missed the point on what I meant by respect. 

You started off indicating that you feel that vets should be respected for being around longer than an MR 8 player. This directly implies that a lower ranking player would not be deserving of that respect. That's elitist nonsense on your part. 

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

There's absolutely zero reason in the game to push your builds as far as they can go.  There's is zero reason to min max any particular setup you have. 

And there's absolutely nothing stopping you from doing so. You are actually complaining that there's been a lot of power creep over time. DE has added new content, and players singing that same "there's no challenge" song were the same ones who complained about it not giving rewards, or having mechanics they didn't like, often there were refusals to do the new content before the release. Happened with Fortuna, happened with the Wolf, happened with arbitrations, happened with the umbral tokens, happened with nightwave, you name it and people were lined up to moan about it. Haven't bothered to check but I'm pretty sure there are people moaning about how sucky 'hard mode' is going to be. 

Fact of the matter is that this is a game, an enjoyable pass time for most people. By not bothering to forma every slot, or use the min-max meta builds, many people self-adjust to the content. We can get by without obliterating the map with a single button. 

Some stuff still needs nerfs, especially when players discover OP unintended effects, and when DE adjusts the game to make it a bit more balanced.... Hoo boy do they moan. See the Xoris' infinite combos. 

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

The vets for the most part have been asking for some specific piece of content that  challenges their build crafting. 

No they haven't. They've been demanding "end game content". Whenever you ask what that entails, you are hard pressed to find any two who actually agree.

I saw lots of vets complaining about the Wolf. They insisted that their weapons were godlike. When pressed I saw builds coming out of the "vets" which showed that they were full of hot air. Status builds, all the wrong types of damage for that enemy, and low crits. When people told them why they were having difficulty, some threw tantrums about the problem being the Wolf's crappy design, not their crappy builds. They insisted that the only way to take that enemy on was to use "the meta",  people were showing how many different weapons and frames were usable, but it just went in circles with them claiming everything was meta except whatever junk they were insistent should be usable as-is. 

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Like if everyone could farm for some new and desired mods.  But the vets could do so more efficiently because of what they have available to them.

Uhhhhhh, we already do. Our mod libraries are more mature, and that allows us to tailor builds that allow us to do the content and farm new stuff better than the newbs. Take the Protea farm. You probably have a range of options. I just saw a newb trying to farm the highest tier with a Frost. Bet you already had a forma'd and configured Mesa Prime, Nekros Prime, Volt Prime, your choice of AOE weapons, a couple of Kavats and who knows what else. Those make a world of difference, but you demand more? Just because you have been here for 5 years? Really? 

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Clearly not.  Because if it was sufficient and what veterans have been wanting then player retention wouldn't be a constant problem. 

LOL, so falsely entitled people feel that no matter what they get, they deserve more? Again this is a pass time. One of many. We all have other things going on in our lives. 

Remember Pokémon Go? Look at what happened to their downloads over time:

Notice how Facebook downloads are pretty constant? Notice other things coming up strong and tapering off? That's human nature in a nutshell. We like trying new stuff. We get bored and move on. 

2 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

No one is asking for them to exclusively cater to vets.  But it seriously wouldn't hurt them to give them something they actually want.

You realize that you literally just contradicted yourself over the course of two seconds? 

[Lazframe]

I said to myself I wouldn't reply to this post, since my discussion was directly aimed at DE. My goal is to genuinely change things for the better, rather than receiving some cheesy green marks on the site - since apparently that's what half of the people who commented on this post without even reading it tried to do.

That having been said, as someone who studies psychology and social psychology, your comment guzmantt1977 is hilarious. That graph has no correlation whatsoever with what you're trying to prove. Your arguments are based on semantics of a couple of words like "veteran" - which we usually call someone who has invested a lot of time in this game, where the "mr 8" for him means one who hasn't -, rather than practicality.

If I replied to your comment but didn't reply to a guy calling me names, then deleting his comments, then reposting half of them again - and all the other cringe that has been shared below - imagine how sad your comment has to be.

[844448]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

MR was used as a example to some what accurately chart how long someone has been playing/how much of the game someone has interacted with. 

And it's completely not accurate. One can simply make/buy every single item, leech exp in hydron until everything reaches max level and never touch it again, and get MR 28 in 28 days provided one is that much of a leech. There's nothing to show you how long/how much of the game you have interacted with using MR. If you really want to get the accurate data, use one's full profile : Time spent in game, gear progression where you can see the amount of affinity gained and kill on each weapon and other statistics instead of MR.

[844448]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

There's absolutely zero reason in the game to push your builds as far as they can go.  There's is zero reason to min max any particular setup you have.  Both of these things are factors that are more relevant to people who've been around forever than people who only play the game casually.  The developers continue to develop content that anyone can complete.  They go out of their way to make sure people just getting into the game can get anything in the game and play anything in the game.  This kind of design means there is very little incentive to stick around after you've completed the latest content drop.

And as always, people complain if there's something that doesn't drop with the first shot or able to take you down for not being careful so what to say?

3 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

The vets for the most part have been asking for some specific piece of content that  challenges their build crafting.  Something that gives meaning to the time they invest into the game.  Like if everyone could farm for some new and desired mods.  But the vets could do so more efficiently because of what they have available to them.  I really do not know how to spell it out for you.  There is basically no lasting reason to play the game.  If you're totally fine with this than more power to you.  But I don't see what is wrong with giving something to veteran players.

And what is this "giving something to veteran players"? And how do you define veteran from "veteran" and other kind of players? And not only that, people complain over hard mode in test server being too hard when it's more to adapting your build and play style and now things are nerfed and some of them are veterans when I've seen some wrecking it when they're not considered as veteran so tell me, how do you define it?

3 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Clearly not.  Because if it was sufficient and what veterans have been wanting then player retention wouldn't be a constant problem.  Warframe only peaks with population when new content drops.  The devs are aware of this.  So they cater more towards bringing in the big numbers than they do finding ways to keep players around who've been around for awhile.  No one is asking for them to exclusively cater to vets.  But it seriously wouldn't hurt them to give them something they actually want.  It's not like other games don't do a decent job at supporting longevity whilst creating new things to pull in new players.  DE just doesn't care enough.

If Warframe isn't meant to be a game you invest time into like more popular mmo/rpg style games then all they need to do is be clear on that.  But they insist they're aware of the issue and that they don't cater to any one crowd.

And how do those games make the retention if not endless grinding for vertical progression, making you chase that legendary 5 star gear with the biggest gem bonus and mythical enhancement? Add RNG drop and stat if that's not enough, is that what you want as retention in warframe?

[(PSN)Hooligonzo]

re: Rivens

I just think the Kuva costs for rolling them should be reduced.

First reroll costs, what, 900 Kuva?  Caps at 3500 in *ten* rolls? It's a pretty garbage escalation of costs.

If it started at 100 and capped at 2000, even 2500, it wouldn't feel quite like such a stupid lottery. 

[(XBOX)FOCHOCLTstrfish]

I have not played in almost two years (waiting for a migration) has the game really gone downhill since?

[Zeniistar]

vor einer Stunde schrieb (XB1)FOCHOCLTstrfish:

I have not played in almost two years (waiting for a migration) has the game really gone downhill since?

Yeah

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

10 hours ago, SeRialPiXel said:

I said to myself I wouldn't reply to this post, since my discussion was directly aimed at DE. My goal is to genuinely change things for the better, rather than receiving some cheesy green marks on the site - since apparently that's what half of the people who commented on this post without even reading it tried to do.

That having been said, as someone who studies psychology and social psychology, your comment guzmantt1977 is hilarious. That graph has no correlation whatsoever with what you're trying to prove. Your arguments are based on semantics of a couple of words like "veteran" - which we usually call someone who has invested a lot of time in this game, where the "mr 8" for him means one who hasn't -, rather than practicality.

If I replied to your comment but didn't reply to a guy calling me names, then deleting his comments, then reposting half of them again - and all the other cringe that has been shared below - imagine how sad your comment has to be.

Nice try, could do with some polish though. 

 

Like when you talk about arguing semantics, understand that you are on a forum where the only mode of communication is written, or memes. So when someone addresses the obvious flaws in a person's argument by showing that there's no valid way to distinguish between people who have learned a lot in the game, versus people who just bought their way to the top echelons by looking at the proposed metric, that's usually going to be considered a valid point. You say that "it doesn't mean that for him" as though it's a magical defense, but that's like me calling your response "haptic". I could do that and later claim "that means that it's written in passable English", because that what I have decided it would mean. Of course if I did that you would be absolutely right to say "that's not what that means at all" and you'd probably just roll your eyes at some random person who comes along and claims "you're just arguing semantics". Guess what I did when I saw you make that claim? 

Next is where someone demands respect for having been around longer than someone else. That just screams of entitlement. Especially when we both know that longer playtime ≠ better player or even more valuable.

And then there's the whole air of "if they listened to me they would retain more players" to which I showed that graph indicating that for free games, player retention is only one part of the road to success, there's also the need to regularly draw new players with something new, something they admit happens pretty regularly in warframe. 

Let me say it very plainly: Vets are not any more entitled to "respect" just for having been here longer, and MR is meaningless as a metric of player knowledge or ability. Anyone claiming otherwise is talking out of their butt. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

7 hours ago, (XB1)FOCHOCLTstrfish said:

I have not played in almost two years (waiting for a migration) has the game really gone downhill since?

Oh Tenno, 😄 people have apparently been saying that since the game was released.

You know, it's the whole "these young whippersnappers... why when I was their age we used to walk twenty miles through the snow to get to school, uphill, both ways, and we had to fight off the wolves, didn't even have a stick, only the rich kids living in the city had sticks!" routine. 

The only way to know if you would enjoy playing the game, is to give it a try. 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

11 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

It doesn't. What part of that don't you grasp? All it shows is how many crap tier weapons we have levelled, and how many tests we bothered to do. 

With plat and cheese players can get pretty high MR rapidly, so your metric is not valid. 

You'd need to provide evidence that the average player is purchasing weapons that are out of their MR range for you to state MR doesn't gauge time invested.  I never claimed it to be 100% accurate.  Just mentioned that it's a some what reasonable way to track.  Not to mention i'm pretty sure DE has stated as much before.

11 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You started off indicating that you feel that vets should be respected for being around longer than an MR 8 player. This directly implies that a lower ranking player would not be deserving of that respect. That's elitist nonsense on your part. 

I honestly don't quite understand why you think it's unreasonable for someone who's spent a 1000+ hours to have something to show for their time invested into the game.  The fact that you keep twisting my stuff to make it look like i'm talking negatively about newer players makes me feel like you don't have an answer to this.  And so you're attempting to dispel any legitimate points I could be making by coming at it from a different angle.  Regardless of what you think I have stated I've specifically restated what I mean.  So either focus on that and stop arguing semantics or just drop this segment of the discussion entirely.

11 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

And there's absolutely nothing stopping you from doing so. You are actually complaining that there's been a lot of power creep over time. DE has added new content, and players singing that same "there's no challenge" song were the same ones who complained about it not giving rewards, or having mechanics they didn't like, often there were refusals to do the new content before the release. Happened with Fortuna, happened with the Wolf, happened with arbitrations, happened with the umbral tokens, happened with nightwave, you name it and people were lined up to moan about it. Haven't bothered to check but I'm pretty sure there are people moaning about how sucky 'hard mode' is going to be. 

Not sure how this actually addresses my complaint.  You're just moving the goal post of the discussion here.

11 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Fact of the matter is that this is a game, an enjoyable pass time for most people. By not bothering to forma every slot, or use the min-max meta builds, many people self-adjust to the content. We can get by without obliterating the map with a single button. 

And some people spend a lot more time in the game and would like to see that mean something.  Why is that a problem.

11 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Some stuff still needs nerfs, especially when players discover OP unintended effects, and when DE adjusts the game to make it a bit more balanced.... Hoo boy do they moan. See the Xoris' infinite combos. 

Xoris is verifiably one of the worst stat sticks you can use for builds that need a stat stick.  Nor is it a weapon from the good type of melee weapons and it's probably not even the best glaive we have stat wise.  Xoris brought convenience.  DE instead of addressing the issues that Xoris bandaids a bit just removes the solution.  So of course people are upset.  The actual "power" Xoris brings has existed for several months and the convenience it gives via modding has been covered by rivens for just as long because rivens still effect these abilities for whatever reason.  At least educate yourself about the situation before trying to throw it in someone's face.

11 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

No they haven't. They've been demanding "end game content". Whenever you ask what that entails, you are hard pressed to find any two who actually agree.

Yeah that's specifically what I just listed.

11 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

I saw lots of vets complaining about the Wolf. They insisted that their weapons were godlike. When pressed I saw builds coming out of the "vets" which showed that they were full of hot air. Status builds, all the wrong types of damage for that enemy, and low crits. When people told them why they were having difficulty, some threw tantrums about the problem being the Wolf's crappy design, not their crappy builds. They insisted that the only way to take that enemy on was to use "the meta",  people were showing how many different weapons and frames were usable, but it just went in circles with them claiming everything was meta except whatever junk they were insistent should be usable as-is. 

Uhhhhhh, we already do. Our mod libraries are more mature, and that allows us to tailor builds that allow us to do the content and farm new stuff better than the newbs. Take the Protea farm. You probably have a range of options. I just saw a newb trying to farm the highest tier with a Frost. Bet you already had a forma'd and configured Mesa Prime, Nekros Prime, Volt Prime, your choice of AOE weapons, a couple of Kavats and who knows what else. Those make a world of difference, but you demand more? Just because you have been here for 5 years? Really?

I mean if you'd like to blanket dismiss a whole group of people over some people you personally witnessed i'm just not even going to bother.  As for your example it's not a very fitting one.  Of course anyone who spends a year playing the game is going to clear something faster than a fresh account.  That's basically false misrepresentation of the situation.

11 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

LOL, so falsely entitled people feel that no matter what they get, they deserve more? Again this is a pass time. One of many. We all have other things going on in our lives. 

Remember Pokémon Go? Look at what happened to their downloads over time:

Notice how Facebook downloads are pretty constant? Notice other things coming up strong and tapering off? That's human nature in a nutshell. We like trying new stuff. We get bored and move on.

I mean if anything this just sums up your entire slew of responses better then the half baked "arguments" you've thrown my way.  You think it's a game to pass the time and nothing more.  Again, cool for you.  But you've no right to attack others just because they happen to care a bit more on how their time is invested.

11 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

You realize that you literally just contradicted yourself over the course of two seconds? 

Me asking the developers to give the veterans one shred of content that they specifically asked for isn't asking DE to exclusively cater to the group.

11 hours ago, 844448 said:

And it's completely not accurate. One can simply make/buy every single item, leech exp in hydron until everything reaches max level and never touch it again, and get MR 28 in 28 days provided one is that much of a leech. There's nothing to show you how long/how much of the game you have interacted with using MR. If you really want to get the accurate data, use one's full profile : Time spent in game, gear progression where you can see the amount of affinity gained and kill on each weapon and other statistics instead of MR.

Never claimed it to be 100% accurate.  Just going off of the general game structure and word of mouth via DE.  Premium currency muddies the water in any discussion about game design.  That's a whole different discussion.

10 hours ago, 844448 said:

And as always, people complain if there's something that doesn't drop with the first shot or able to take you down for not being careful so what to say?

Blanket dismissal isn't a counter argument.  It's a lazy reply.

10 hours ago, 844448 said:

And what is this "giving something to veteran players"? And how do you define veteran from "veteran" and other kind of players? And not only that, people complain over hard mode in test server being too hard when it's more to adapting your build and play style and now things are nerfed and some of them are veterans when I've seen some wrecking it when they're not considered as veteran so tell me, how do you define it?

Between you and the other person this specific segment right here is actually the best i've seen.  Defining a veteran is a fair point to make so bravo on that.  I'll have to get back to you on that so it can be a short but sweet definition.  As for the hard mode thing I think you're again looking at it too broadly.  There are people who like that they actually have to consider what to bring for their gear now.  That like how you have to actually prepare for the specific type of content they're going to do.  And that you can't use everything at your disposal.

The feeling it brings which is essentially a gear check is something some of them like.  That doesn't mean that the way it's doing it is 100% great though.  Some fine tuning of the numbers needs to happen.  And of course the rewards need to be there.  (perhaps they are now.  I've not seen the changes to the rewards DE made post feedback yet.)  There are some of course who want more mechanical difficulty and not this.  So "hard mode isn't hard" is a complaint that makes sense.

10 hours ago, 844448 said:

And how do those games make the retention if not endless grinding for vertical progression, making you chase that legendary 5 star gear with the biggest gem bonus and mythical enhancement? Add RNG drop and stat if that's not enough, is that what you want as retention in warframe?

In MMO's raids are considered to be where the best rewards usually are.  You need to really grind your way there to even manage to do the raid.  Let alone be able to efficiently run the raid multiple times without it dragging on forever.  In games like path of exile they have seasons.  That in itself is fairly complex to type out and you'd better benefit from watching a video.  But poorly summerized it's kind of like a soft reset to your character.  But you don't start 100% over because your gear and build isn't instantly outdated.  There's new stuff to chase to slot in that fine tunes your build to tackle newer stuff that non optimized builds will struggle to do.

I wouldn't say I want path of exile's setup for warframe and to be fair what I want from warframe in the grandscheme of things is never going to happen.  The bottom line is really just that DE hasn't ever attempted to make an end game which is where vets would stick to for the most part.  If DE doesn't want to create an end game and they don't want to make the game something that is a true time investment game then that's fine.  They just need to be clear about it.  As is the game looks like it wants to be friendly and doable for new players.  But the way it's structured seems like it wants you to theory craft with your builds to make insanely powerful frames/builds.  The problem with the latter is that there's nothing that supports that content wise.  Where as the former has basically the entirety of Warframe as a playground.

[Rakosta_Kai]

11 hours ago, SeRialPiXel said:

I said to myself I wouldn't reply to this post, since my discussion was directly aimed at DE. My goal is to genuinely change things for the better, rather than receiving some cheesy green marks on the site - since apparently that's what half of the people who commented on this post without even reading it tried to do.

Hint: Your "feedback" is myopic because it's full of subjective and hyperbolic conclusions. Further, had you actually wanted the Devs to see this then you would have posted it in feedback instead or sent it to a dev directly.

...You didn't because it's just a collections of rants in feedback's clothing.

11 hours ago, SeRialPiXel said:

If I replied to your comment but didn't reply to a guy calling me names, then deleting his comments, then reposting half of them again - and all the other cringe that has been shared below - imagine how sad your comment has to be.

Why would you reply to any comment if, as you noted, you sought to interact with DE directly?

40 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Let me say it very plainly: Vets are not any more entitled to "respect" just for having been here longer, and MR is meaningless as a metric of player knowledge or ability. Anyone claiming otherwise is talking out of their butt. 

Well said.

[844448]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Never claimed it to be 100% accurate.  Just going off of the general game structure and word of mouth via DE.  Premium currency muddies the water in any discussion about game design.  That's a whole different discussion.

And that's a reason why what you said about MR is not accurate. MR can't be used as example

14 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Blanket dismissal isn't a counter argument.  It's a lazy reply.

Because I've seen it. Even in this forum we have a Tenno making summary of Brozime's video on hard mode where Vay Hek has too much EHP and another Tenno said Brozime is a damn good player and what do we get? A Tenno posting a video of doing Vay Hek solo so who to believe now? Brozime or this Tenno?

16 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Between you and the other person this specific segment right here is actually the best i've seen.  Defining a veteran is a fair point to make so bravo on that.  I'll have to get back to you on that so it can be a short but sweet definition.  As for the hard mode thing I think you're again looking at it too broadly.  There are people who like that they actually have to consider what to bring for their gear now.  That like how you have to actually prepare for the specific type of content they're going to do.  And that you can't use everything at your disposal.

The feeling it brings which is essentially a gear check is something some of them like.  That doesn't mean that the way it's doing it is 100% great though.  Some fine tuning of the numbers needs to happen.  And of course the rewards need to be there.  (perhaps they are now.  I've not seen the changes to the rewards DE made post feedback yet.)  There are some of course who want more mechanical difficulty and not this.  So "hard mode isn't hard" is a complaint that makes sense.

So how do you make it then so it's harder for those who want to consider what to bring and for those who want more mechanical difficulty? Make it mechanical and we'll see gear players wiping out enemies easily and being confused, make it gear focused and we'll see mechanical players not having their share, make it somewhat balanced and we'll see it shredded by gears and mechanical players struggling because they're getting hit hard while trying to solve the problem so how do you make it then?

And for rewards, what reward is suitable for veterans that basically have everything? For example, I have played this game for 6 years straight from 2014 without break to the point where I can wreck level 100 lich mission before armor scaling change with a braton and I don't really bother for the so called reward so what is the reward as incentive for player like me? At best I play because I want to wreck the hard mission but what reward for those who chase rewards because they can't play if there's no reward?

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

In MMO's raids are considered to be where the best rewards usually are.  You need to really grind your way there to even manage to do the raid.  Let alone be able to efficiently run the raid multiple times without it dragging on forever.  In games like path of exile they have seasons.  That in itself is fairly complex to type out and you'd better benefit from watching a video.  But poorly summerized it's kind of like a soft reset to your character.  But you don't start 100% over because your gear and build isn't instantly outdated.  There's new stuff to chase to slot in that fine tunes your build to tackle newer stuff that non optimized builds will struggle to do.

I wouldn't say I want path of exile's setup for warframe and to be fair what I want from warframe in the grandscheme of things is never going to happen.  The bottom line is really just that DE hasn't ever attempted to make an end game which is where vets would stick to for the most part.  If DE doesn't want to create an end game and they don't want to make the game something that is a true time investment game then that's fine.  They just need to be clear about it.  As is the game looks like it wants to be friendly and doable for new players.  But the way it's structured seems like it wants you to theory craft with your builds to make insanely powerful frames/builds.  The problem with the latter is that there's nothing that supports that content wise.  Where as the former has basically the entirety of Warframe as a playground.

So what is "endgame" actually? Another place to grind more rewards? And tell me, how do you make the so called endgame for gods?

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

5 minutes ago, 844448 said:

And that's a reason why what you said about MR is not accurate. MR can't be used as example

We'd be having the same argument if I mentioned hours of time instead of MR.  This is essentially just nitpicking my example instead of looking at what the example was stating.  It doesn't disprove my statement and just serves to draw out the discussion in a pointless manner.

5 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Because I've seen it. Even in this forum we have a Tenno making summary of Brozime's video on hard mode where Vay Hek has too much EHP and another Tenno said Brozime is a damn good player and what do we get? A Tenno posting a video of doing Vay Hek solo so who to believe now? Brozime or this Tenno?

I've not seen the video where brozime fights Vay hek on hardmode nor have I seen a video of someone else soloing vayhek on hard mode faster.  So the specific example here doesn't work for me.  But if I had to make a statement on it...I'd say people are again looking at things too broadly and trying to make absolute statements about something instead of accepting a bit of gray into their perspectives.  I'm sure there's some build you can make that would easily hit Vay hek's mandatory invincible triggers in hard mode.  Just as you can take a good Khorra build into hard mode and mob trash like you're playing regular star chart.  Neither would disprove the complaint about EHP values being too much.  As that's more of a subjective thing to argue about.  Since you have to quantify how much is too much.

5 minutes ago, 844448 said:

So how do you make it then so it's harder for those who want to consider what to bring and for those who want more mechanical difficulty? Make it mechanical and we'll see gear players wiping out enemies easily and being confused, make it gear focused and we'll see mechanical players not having their share, make it somewhat balanced and we'll see it shredded by gears and mechanical players struggling because they're getting hit hard while trying to solve the problem so how do you make it then?

I'm a bit confused here so i'm just going to assume you're asking me how to address hardmode complaints.  What I say won't fix all of them and to be frank you can't please everyone.  I would adjust the modifiers downward slightly and make sure the rewards are there to some capacity.  That's it.  I think hardmode is perfectly fine to be a hard gear check.  I don't think hard mode was meant to be the solution for people who want more engaging gameplay out of WF.  Frankly I don't think that's even possible for WF given how it's designed.  Railjack could have been this imho since it was a completely seperate part of the game.

5 minutes ago, 844448 said:

And for rewards, what reward is suitable for veterans that basically have everything? For example, I have played this game for 6 years straight from 2014 without break to the point where I can wreck level 100 lich mission before armor scaling change with a braton and I don't really bother for the so called reward so what is the reward as incentive for player like me? At best I play because I want to wreck the hard mission but what reward for those who chase rewards because they can't play if there's no reward?

I would say Arcanes were the rewards for vet players way back in the day.  Not easily obtained.  Drastically different content that required different approaches to general gameplay.  etc.  In current day WF?  Probably nothing that's not a one off cosmetic drop.  Emphemeras are sort of a great idea for this.  But most of them iirc are just locked behind RNG.  The solution here has been the tried and true "token system" that keeps getting suggested.  As that provides meaningful progression some what.

5 minutes ago, 844448 said:

So what is "endgame" actually? Another place to grind more rewards? And tell me, how do you make the so called endgame for gods?

For current day WF likely something that is a hard gear check.  So potentially hard mode.  Brozime's suggestion to redux reward drops just for a single node on each planet seems like a nice way to do the rewards as well.  Because at least in his specific example it's cutting out a significant part of the farm for relics.

[844448]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

We'd be having the same argument if I mentioned hours of time instead of MR.  This is essentially just nitpicking my example instead of looking at what the example was stating.  It doesn't disprove my statement and just serves to draw out the discussion in a pointless manner.

You can't manipulate hours of time as easy as MR where all you need to do is get everything and bring it to exp farm node to level up so they're more accurate than MR

15 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I've not seen the video where brozime fights Vay hek on hardmode nor have I seen a video of someone else soloing vayhek on hard mode faster.  So the specific example here doesn't work for me.  But if I had to make a statement on it...I'd say people are again looking at things too broadly and trying to make absolute statements about something instead of accepting a bit of gray into their perspectives.  I'm sure there's some build you can make that would easily hit Vay hek's mandatory invincible triggers in hard mode.  Just as you can take a good Khorra build into hard mode and mob trash like you're playing regular star chart.  Neither would disprove the complaint about EHP values being too much.  As that's more of a subjective thing to argue about.  Since you have to quantify how much is too much.

And how do you set the grey? And how much is too much when we have range from 300 strength chroma to 40% strength loki?

17 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I'm a bit confused here so i'm just going to assume you're asking me how to address hardmode complaints.  What I say won't fix all of them and to be frank you can't please everyone.  I would adjust the modifiers downward slightly and make sure the rewards are there to some capacity.  That's it.  I think hardmode is perfectly fine to be a hard gear check.  I don't think hard mode was meant to be the solution for people who want more engaging gameplay out of WF.  Frankly I don't think that's even possible for WF given how it's designed.  Railjack could have been this imho since it was a completely seperate part of the game.

So just a gear check node?

And is it? I made this thread to make it slightly more engaging

 

20 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I would say Arcanes were the rewards for vet players way back in the day.  Not easily obtained.  Drastically different content that required different approaches to general gameplay.  etc.  In current day WF?  Probably nothing that's not a one off cosmetic drop.  Emphemeras are sort of a great idea for this.  But most of them iirc are just locked behind RNG.  The solution here has been the tried and true "token system" that keeps getting suggested.  As that provides meaningful progression some what.

And what the rewards will be to so you have the reason to keep coming as the retention you mentioned?

21 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

For current day WF likely something that is a hard gear check.  So potentially hard mode.  Brozime's suggestion to redux reward drops just for a single node on each planet seems like a nice way to do the rewards as well.  Because at least in his specific example it's cutting out a significant part of the farm for relics.

You mean this?

 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On 2020-07-03 at 4:40 AM, Richeatue said:

 Well, when you say things like 

"Let me help you with a classical hint"

"logic doesn't work that way"

"Again, using the brain and common sense teaches you this"

There's no "writing style," it's literally just you being egotistical. I don't need to derive anything, you're presenting it to me plain as day. There is not a single person who would enjoy being spoken to like that, which might signal that there's something wrong with what it is your saying. A "different writing style," would be something like using a lot of quotes, reusing words, formatting style, etc. This isn't a style, it's arrogance and sarcasm. It's rude, just admit it.

As you get older you realize that the sum of your experiences creates listening/interpretation filters...you read words and assign meaning AND context to them.

aka what the internal voice “made it mean”.

Once you can step back and recognize it as a human trait, you take control of it and it no longer unknowingly hijacks your thought process, which can often drive you into dead-end right/wrong perceptions when communicating with others.

 

On 2020-07-02 at 7:11 PM, Felsagger said:

Different writing styles. 

It's impossible for anyone to derive psychological traits based on writing expressions on a forum board. 

Felsagger has a confidence and “on-the-nose” and poignant, opinionated posting style.

It can feel a bit like a Jat-Kitty to the face, but if you follow his responses for any length of time, to dismiss him as rude or arrogant because he disagrees is doing the discussion and everyone in it a disservice imho.

Honestly, a lot of us are that way to some degree.

Be at peace and discuss fellow Tenno.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

13 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

You'd need to provide evidence that the average player is purchasing weapons that are out of their MR range for you to state MR doesn't gauge time invested.  I never claimed it to be 100% accurate.  Just mentioned that it's a some what reasonable way to track.  Not to mention i'm pretty sure DE has stated as much before.

Why? We've all seen low MR players with gear that isn't starter. That proves that they can do it. 

And again it's not a matter of it being 100% accurate, it's that it's vastly inaccurate for a wide range of reasons. 

13 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I honestly don't quite understand why you think it's unreasonable for someone who's spent a 1000+ hours to have something to show for their time invested into the game.  The fact that you keep twisting my stuff to make it look like i'm talking negatively about newer players makes me feel like you don't have an answer to this. 

Oh but you DO have something to show for it. It's in the stats of your profile. What you seem to want is actually something MORE, so you can flaunt it. But we have those as well, from the daily rewards. So what you want is really "even more". Where does it end? At what point do you acknowledge that it's coming from a sense of false entitlement, and that from a false sense of superiority? 

You got your answer, repeatedly, but you don't seem to like it. 

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Xoris is verifiably one of the worst stat sticks you can use for builds that need a stat stick.  Nor is it a weapon from the good type of melee weapons and it's probably not even the best glaive we have stat wise.  Xoris brought convenience.  DE instead of addressing the issues that Xoris bandaids a bit just removes the solution.  So of course people are upset.  The actual "power" Xoris brings has existed for several months and the convenience it gives via modding has been covered by rivens for just as long because rivens still effect these abilities for whatever reason.  At least educate yourself about the situation before trying to throw it in someone's face.

Read the first line of the part you quoted. Read it carefully. Then think about the fact that you have been whining  "you are looking at the example I gave and taking it out of context" for several posts now. I was talking about stuff still needing nerfs as part of balancing the game, and players crying when it happens. I gave the most recent example of that, I didn't say that Xoris was the only thing that had the issue, or that it was the initiation of the issue. 

Try to think next time before you try to insult people or claim that they don't know what they're talking about. You may find that you embarrass yourself less. Or not. 

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Yeah that's specifically what I just listed.

Nope, because believe it or not "endgame content" is a meaningless phrase and everyone claims that it means something different. Think about the significance of that for a bit. 

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

I mean if anything this just sums up your entire slew of responses better then the half baked "arguments" you've thrown my way.  You think it's a game to pass the time and nothing more.  Again, cool for you.  But you've no right to attack others just because they happen to care a bit more on how their time is invested.

So you think that Warframe, a game made by DE, is not a game? Tell us more about your delusions. 

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Me asking the developers to give the veterans one shred of content that they specifically asked for isn't asking DE to exclusively cater to the group.

Yes, it is, as "veterans" is a specific group, for which you are requesting "exclusive" content. Or did you not grasp that simple, obvious fact while you were writing this? 

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Never claimed it to be 100% accurate.  Just going off of the general game structure and word of mouth via DE.  Premium currency muddies the water in any discussion about game design.  That's a whole different discussion.

Again it's not about 100 percent, it's about it NOT being a valid metric at all. Ask yourself can a person be carried and earn a high MR, having only to complete a few quests, junctions and tests? If you answer "yes that's possible", then you must grasp that MR is meaningless as a metric of ability and familiarity with the content. 

I know that you think that you put in a lot of "work" and "valuable time" and want to justify your achievement, but you have undoubtedly seen high MR players doing utter nonsense in your years of playing. We all have. Hell man, there was a post a while back by a high MR player who admitted to being carried by their clan who didn't like that lower MR people got uppity about THE high MR player not knowing what they were doing. 

Was that player worthy of respect because of their higher MR? I would say no, but I am curious as to how you will twist yourself in knots, having chosen your hill. 

 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

You can't manipulate hours of time as easy as MR where all you need to do is get everything and bring it to exp farm node to level up so they're more accurate than MR

What I meant was that if I listed a numbers in the form of hours you could very easily argue how many hours defines a vet.  Which is why I stated the same argument could be made.  As for the links you provided I clipped them out to shorten the wall of text.  But i'm definitely interested about your suggestions.  I will look at them and then DM you when I get home later.  I just mainly wanted to respond to thank you for the very decent discussion.  it was quite refreshing.

 

[Evil-Ninja]

Except for fashion (TennoGen) there is no reason to spend real money on the game. If you spend money/plat on gear expect the ole' bait and switch when they nerf it. Fashion is endgame only because it costs real money. Popular opinion overly dominates the game because new releases/weapons are initially poorly balanced. Otherwise the game is about entertaining yourself with short story content, extraneous or slightly ancillary game modes and new warframes/weapons with unique abilities to increase master rank while generating a trickle revenue for DE.

[Rakosta_Kai]

6 hours ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Nope, because believe it or not "endgame content" is a meaningless phrase and everyone claims that it means something different. Think about the significance of that for a bit.

Stop reading my mind!!!!

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

Stop reading my mind!!!!

I knew you were going to say that. Btw you have an accent.