Xata's Whisper is a "Damage Increasing" ability in the helminth system

[Velitria]

Alright, this is a bug 100%. You can't be logical and consider 83% at 322% ability strength and the same builds on each frame a damage buffing ability and then have an augment that gives more duration, applies to allies, and most importantly... 3.88x the damage bonus. I understand calculation is different and one is based on total damage and the other is not, but consider mod capacity, that buff is 3 and a half 90% mods of pure radiation damage. From numerous math calculations, only 1-2 mods on the best builds are required to increase total damage effectiveness by at least 100%. Thus meaning Xata's Whisper is worse by at least 2x.

By this logic, Xata's Whisper's base effectivity would have to be at minimum 50-60% instead of 26% to be on par with an Augment... Roar is better than this Augment from a damage perspective and is a properly classed damage buffing ability. However, to be on par with Roar and its' ability to increase status damage and ability damage and be on par with it... Xata's Whisper would have to be at least 100%. In order for it to be on par with roar's bonus damage alone, excluding the other status and ability increasing bonuses, it would need roughly 75-80%. All of this concludes that this is a glitch and shouldn't be classed as a damage buffing ability for helminth, or be increased to the amounts I stated. If Xata's Whisper didn't cost energy and had infinite duration, forced status, added to status damage, and applied to any ability in the game, I would still use Roar. It is just that bad. Another reason I see this as a glitch is Roar states "Damage Increase" and Xata's Whisper states "Extra Damage" The Helminth system states that Xata's whisper is a "Damage Increasing Ability" and I can't use Roar and Xata's Whisper simultaneously. The Smite Augment states "Extra Damage" and is not damage increasing ability prevention because it does not increase the raw damage of a frame, it adds radiation. So by that understanding, I can make the conclusion that Xata's Whisper does not add Void damage and increases my Raw damage. I don't know how to be clearer than this that it is an oversight or glitch. It NEEDS a massive buff, and would still be worse, I don't expect it to ever be better than Roar, even if it had more damage, Roar applies the bonus twice for status DoT and makes ability damage higher. Xata's Whisper at 100% base, Roar is 50% base. That would be enough to make up for Roar being 50% twice for DoT (which they do stack with each other for 125%). Roar would be used for DoT builds and Xata's Whisper would be better for non-status. You can even nerf Xata's Whisper to cost 75 energy like Roar, it would be worth it.

[KIREEK]

I've used it to kill sentients on the railjack anomally missions, since the proc is usefull against them (considering sentients fly around) and resets their resistance, not to mention the buff itself doesn't need an augment mod like certain elemental buffs.

The proc and the resistance reset is already really good, because you can fire nonstop and end the sentients without using operator.

I understand your concern, but the thing is, it's a 25 energy cost ability, you can't compare it to a 75 energy cost one nor you can compare it with more usefull ones that require an extra mod for them to work as buffs.

If an ability doesn't suit your need, you need to either use another ability or change the purpose, players don't use decoy to deal damage nor we use AOE damage abilities to buff or heal allies, there's a reason for that.

[lukinu_u]

Smite, Shock, Fireball, etc... are technically not damage buff abilities, because they require their respective augment mods to act as such, while Xata Whisper is directly a damage buff.

However, what I find weird is Saryn's Toxin Lash that work exactly the same as Xata Whisper, but isn't considered as a damage buff.
 

il y a 39 minutes, Velitria a dit :

By this logic, Xata's Whisper's base effectivity would have to be at minimum 50-60% instead of 26% to be on par with an Augment... Roar is better than this Augment from a damage perspective and is a properly classed damage buffing ability. However, to be on par with Roar and its' ability to increase status damage and ability damage and be on par with it... Xata's Whisper would have to be at least 100%. In order for it to be on par with roar's bonus damage alone, excluding the other status and ability increasing bonuses, it would need roughly 75-80%

Xata Whisper stack multiplicatively with your total damage after mods, while elemental augments are additive to mods. This mean Xata Whisper can provide a much higher damage output on a mod setup using high elemental mods values (such as the legendaries ones), while the stated augments have diminishing returns as you add more elemental mods. On top of that, Xata Whisper is the only way to get Void status (which might be good after the changes) and doesn't mess up with your status distribution, while Smite Infusition for example add a bunch of radiation status that you don't want.

For Roar, it clearly outperform Xata Whisper in term of damages and you can't use both on your Warframe, but it's important to keep in mind they still stack multiplicatively together and can be used with teammates.
However, Xata Whisper still has it's use if what you're looking for isn't damage, but the status + 2nd damage instance.

[WiseGuard]

Issue with Smite for me is mod slot requirement.

For basic frames like Inaros it aint that hard of a choice, just ditch some health and go for Smite with Augment.
Slowa would benefit a lot from Smite, by ditching one duration mod.

Xata Whisper on the other hand... not sure where to use it well. Sentients are no issue as i free them from their mortal shells with Paracesis without a big of an issue.
I know! HEALING MOTHER F****** LOID IN VAULTS!

Void status effect is nice, like mini Mag.

My thoughts are that Xata Whisper would go on Status builds, whilst Smite just plain raw crit damage.

Tho i feat DE will nerf Smite :( 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

It makes sense if you put it into the context of Eidolons hunts. Letting Rhino or Chroma have this ability, if it affected Eidolons, would make the whole thing a cake walk. The fact that it can be put on Rhino or Chroma with replacing Roar or Vex armor means that Xatas whisper should be made viable for Eidolons hunts.

[Velitria]

You do understand that regardless of total or additive damage, smite infusion can just skip adding elemental mods and put more crit mods that multiply total damage. The point isn't that Xata's Whisper calculation is the reasoning for it being a damage buffing ability. The point is that the exclusion in the Helminth system is for ability that increase Raw damage. 100% of the time based on how I setup a modconfig, I will do more damage with smite infusion, even against enemies with 50% dmr against radiation. Multiplication doesn't do anything without a base or additive. Additives lack value without a multiplication. You just change your build focus based on what is introduced in regard to diminishing returns. If frame ability multiplies, I want to stack additive on weapon, if frame stacks additive, I want to stack multiplicative on the weapon. I logically stated that based on the principals of damage, weapons, and mods that this ability does not contain enough value to compare to other "Damage Increasing" abilities in the game. The screenshots point towards the wording being counter to the basis of the Helminth exclusion language by stating "Extra Damage" instead of "Damage Increase". Roar could have a 100% total energy cost and Xata's Whisper could be free, Roar would be used more. Make Xata's Whisper energy cost higher and buff the %, I don't care, whatever it takes to improve how trash it is in its current state. Saryn's toxic lash is a good example of a non "Damage Increasing" ability because it does not interact with Raw damage like Chroma, Rhino, and Mirage. It adds toxin as an after effect. This is how Xata's Whisper should have worked. I want to like the ability, but there is absolutely no justifiable reason to not replace it with Roar with the diminished value and still be 2-3x as good. Roar applies to status DoT an extra time, and it increases ability damage. Wow surprise, increase Vast Untime explosive damage and Grasp of Lohk turret damage yet Xata's Whisper can't? Wow, it's almost like Roar is a damage increasing ability like it says it is. What load of trash Xaku's 1 is. They nerfed it so badly when creating it (because of power creep) that it can't even attempt compare to Rhino... one of the oldest frames. For all those inexperienced saying energy cost determines how strong an ability is... DE, I gladly ask that Xata's Whisper be made to cost 300 energy for a 200% bonus aka 4x the cost and effectivity of Roar. Why don't people think about balance? It would be the most expensive ability in the entire game by far. Then there is justification for making it 4x as good as Roar. Whatever it takes to not be garbage. High cost. High reward.

[Klaeljanu]

You shouldn't omit that Void procs are now (edit: will soon be) potential headshot guarantees, so Xata's Whisper is now potentially a hell of a lot stronger than the paper numbers suggest.

Not to mention the obvious implications of easily accessible void damage for the Scarlet Spear event and other non-eidolon sentient fights. (Aka: Laughs in Mesa Prime)

[Leqesai]

11 minutes ago, Klaeljanu said:

You shouldn't omit that Void procs are now potential headshot guarantees, so Xata's Whisper is now potentially a hell of a lot stronger than the paper numbers suggest.

Not to mention the obvious implications of easily accessible void damage for the Scarlet Spear event and other non-eidolon sentient fights. (Aka: Laughs in Mesa Prime)

Is this a recent change to the void status proc?

[Klaeljanu]

my mistake on the timing, updated my posted.