A basic idea for Void status and Zenurik's Energy regen

[(NSW)Gamma83]

personally i use more naramon (combo counter + affinity on melee kill ) than zenurik....so i don't think it's that big of a gap between those two (especially when arcane energize is a thing)
And nerfing the zenurik dash would simply make me go full naramon instead of 80% naramon.

[quxier]

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

You mean, the entire point of Xaku's 2? The ability that literally steals the enemy's guns from their hands, and prevents them from shooting at all?

They have limitations like close range and maximum number of guns stolen.

The 2 abilities (1st & 2nd) works great with each other for "disarming" enemies. Void status can be used to "disarm" enemy from distance and Grasp of Lohk to safely completely disarm it from shorter distance.

ps. that wasn't the point of GoL according to DE (sadly) - it meant to be some buff (damage).

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But everybody ends up with Void guns, that's the point of the Operator and amps. Amp 111 may not have the highest status chance (it still does apply status, though), but amp 222 certainly does, among several others.

Yes, but at that point in the progression you have other methods of getting energy. Pre-amp players would need it more. Making energy regen on void status wouldn't solve energy regen problem, at least not for pre-amp players.

9 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Status should do something interesting... like what? Because right now, among our status effects, we have five DoTs, four damage increases, and a bunch of crowd control that is largely dismissed as useless.

Like change enemies into different one (e.g. buffed Bombard into weak Butcher) or disarm enemies (e.g. their weapon fell on the ground so they have to pick them up).

It's not that they are useless, but it's just there is no place for them in your builds. I heard one person that uses that statuses for Steel path with Lavos.

10 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

What I'm proposing is more versatile Energy regen, precisely because it's attached to a status effect that can proc not only from amps, but stuff like Xaku's 1.

At the end of the day, Xaku's 1 is a damage steroid,

and dealing bonus Void damage that can then also trigger Energy regen I'd say isn't something any other frame does.

As for an ability that prevents enemies from shooting at you, I'm sure Xaku will manage... oh wait, that's literally his 2. I guess you'll just have to use his 2 in addition to his 1 from now on.

Yes, it's better energy regen... but HUGE downgrade to current void status and Xaku's ability. And it's only 1 more frame that can use "energy regen" (like Gara's + augment). And even you can infuse it into another frame... we have energy regen abilities already!

And Xaku's 1st is not only damage steroid.

Sure... but other frames does it better. Even my hated Dispensary (Protea) could proc Arcanes & Equilibrum.

Oh... I AM USING 2nd with 1st all the time (~5 seconds with ~78 duration afair). 2nd, in the current state, is not good for disarming enemies alone. Your change would completely destroy Xaku (that's what I hate). You cannot reliably disarm enemies, so you would put more duration. Get some guns, put some Gaze, spam the Vast untime.... brilliant game play.

10 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

So your argument for preserving the entirety of Void status in its present state is because you want to bypass the nerf DE applied to Xaku's ability that was specifically designed to disarm enemies? Don't you think that's a bit of a reach? If Xaku isn't intended to auto-disarm every enemy he sees (and I'd argue that itself only applies if you're using an AoE status weapon), I don't see why a mechanic generally recognized as useless and ill-fitting ought to be preserved solely for his very indirect sake.

I bypass this nerf by putting negative duration.

I just like Void status. Any suggestion to Void status is very boring (another damage buff) or just catered to specific people (energy regen). We have many damage typesdoing very similar job (corrosive/heat/gas/toxin/viral/magnetic, cold/electric/blast, radiation and void). Deleting another status would just make this game more Bullet-spongy happy game... 

[Teridax68]

7 hours ago, (NSW)Gamma83 said:

personally i use more naramon (combo counter + affinity on melee kill ) than zenurik....so i don't think it's that big of a gap between those two (especially when arcane energize is a thing)
And nerfing the zenurik dash would simply make me go full naramon instead of 80% naramon.

I'd argue that's pretty much fine, given that your own choice already currently comes more from preference than balance. If Naramon ends up dominating, then for sure the other schools would inevitably need improvements as well (and I'd argue Madurai, Unairu, and Vazarin could all stand to use some significant buffs), but at least it would be a healthier state of affairs where Zenurik wouldn't be head and shoulders above the rest.

4 hours ago, quxier said:

They have limitations like close range and maximum number of guns stolen.

And you feel like you should be able to bypass this, because... ? At the end of the day, you're asking for Void status to remain the same just so that Xaku's 1 can also do the job of their 2, which I don't think is really acceptable. The much more efficient solution to the problem, if there even is a problem at all, would be to buff Grasp of Lohk directly, e.g. allow Xaku to recast it even at max weapons to continue disarming enemies and refresh his arsenal.

4 hours ago, quxier said:

Yes, but at that point in the progression you have other methods of getting energy. Pre-amp players would need it more. Making energy regen on void status wouldn't solve energy regen problem, at least not for pre-amp players.

Other methods of getting Energy, such as... ? That's a silly argument, given that Zenurik right now is known for being at the core of most player's Energy resupply, and currently takes far longer to obtain than just getting a 222 amp. Even with "other methods" in the game, my proposal would still give access to that Energy regen far sooner than now.

4 hours ago, quxier said:

Like change enemies into different one (e.g. buffed Bombard into weak Butcher) or disarm enemies (e.g. their weapon fell on the ground so they have to pick them up).

I fail to see how either status effect would see play, as they're both niche, and enemy transformation sounds like it wouldn't be nearly as interesting to deal with in practice than the effect sounds (you're not getting a tangible benefit and may even end up at a disadvantage if the transformation isn't desirable). Also, how exactly are you justifying that in-game? How does one transform from a Bombard to a Butcher?

4 hours ago, quxier said:

It's not that they are useless, but it's just there is no place for them in your builds. I heard one person that uses that statuses for Steel path with Lavos.

Putting aside how incredibly anecdotal that is, Lavos is the one frame who wants to spam status regardless of how useful it is, just because any new status multiplies his 4 damage. That doesn't make every status effect inherently valuable, it just means he's the one frame whose damage scales by applying as many different status effects as possible.

4 hours ago, quxier said:

Yes, it's better energy regen... but HUGE downgrade to current void status and Xaku's ability.

How is it a downgrade from current Void status? Current Void status is infamously unpopular and players repeatedly ask for it to change. So far, you have been the only person I have ever seen to find that status effect desirable, and even then, your stated reasons behind that just seem to be really misplaced. On-demand Energy regen would be a tremendous upgrade over the present bullet attractor, and being able to proc it from an ability would be a buff to Xaku as well.

4 hours ago, quxier said:

And it's only 1 more frame that can use "energy regen" (like Gara's + augment). And even you can infuse it into another frame... we have energy regen abilities already!

And Xaku's 1st is not only damage steroid.

Xaku's 1 is literally a damage steroid. For sure, there are more Energy regen abilities, but none attached to a damage steroid. That would be unique to Xaku, and would make for a much more attractive option when choosing which ability to infuse.

4 hours ago, quxier said:

Sure... but other frames does it better. Even my hated Dispensary (Protea) could proc Arcanes & Equilibrum.

Literally no other frame ability offers a damage steroid and Energy regen at the same time, though, and that's more important than trying to be better than abilities known for being good at their one thing. Xaku's 1 isn't the best damage steroid out there, and it's certainly not the best defensive ability either. It's not even the best combination of steroid and defense, not with Shooting Gallery and Eclipse available through Helminth. There is currently no reason to infuse it, and my proposal at least has a chance of changing that.

4 hours ago, quxier said:

Oh... I AM USING 2nd with 1st all the time (~5 seconds with ~78 duration afair). 2nd, in the current state, is not good for disarming enemies alone. Your change would completely destroy Xaku (that's what I hate). You cannot reliably disarm enemies, so you would put more duration. Get some guns, put some Gaze, spam the Vast untime.... brilliant game play.

It seems like the problem here is less that my change would "completely destroy Xaku" (not even close), but that my change would alter this one minor sub-feature you've decided to obsess over. At the end of the day, you don't seem to even want to play Xaku in his entirety, you just want one of his abilities to do the job of the rest of his kit. More than that, you're plainly just focusing on the wrong things: if you don't think Xaku's 2 is good enough for disarming enemies, ask for that to be buffed. Asking to lock in a mechanic that affects far more bits of content than Xaku just for the sake of Xaku (and for incredibly specious reasons as well), everyone else be damned, makes strictly no design sense, and I don't think really comes from a healthy place either.

4 hours ago, quxier said:

I bypass this nerf by putting negative duration.

Despite the fact that Xaku's entire kit scales off of duration. Right.

4 hours ago, quxier said:

I just like Void status. Any suggestion to Void status is very boring (another damage buff) or just catered to specific people (energy regen). We have many damage typesdoing very similar job (corrosive/heat/gas/toxin/viral/magnetic, cold/electric/blast, radiation and void). Deleting another status would just make this game more Bullet-spongy happy game... 

My suggestion to Void status is neither a damage buff nor "catered to specific people", given that Energy regen is almost universally desirable. I'm not "deleting another status" either, I'm changing it to something else, and even proposed to shift the current Void status effect to Magnetic. At the end of the day, it seems like you just don't want Void status to change, no matter what, and are unable to look beyond your own personal attachment to the mechanic. You're not here to change your opinion, yet your arguments aren't designed to be convincing either, they're just extensions of your own feelings that can't possibly resonate with anyone else unless they share your exact opinion.

9 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Interestingly, I might want to play the game.

Because playing the game means not interacting with enemies in any capacity. Right.

9 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Yes. Maintaining them.

You mean by doing something to replenish your Energy? It seems you're genuinely trying to convince me that your playstyle consists of spamming grenades non-stop to such a degree that you cannot afford to even drop into Operator mode for a couple of seconds, at which point your inability to incorporate any gameplay into your playstyle is your own problem.

9 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Because it's your assumption I'm not running Energise on top of Zenurik. Which would be incorrect.

But Energy orbs and Energise are inconsistent. Zenurik is not.

And Arcane Energize replenishes massive amounts of Energy instantly, which makes its replenishment consistent. At the end of the day, if you believe yourself barely able to sustain your playstyle without constant free Energy regen, at a time when nobody else finds themselves anywhere near that level of duress, it's no-one else's fault but yours. If you need a zero-gameplay source of Energy for your playstyle, just drop a pizza, don't block feedback for change for the sake of your own sense of entitlement.

9 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Right, because that's totally what you had in mind.

Yes, it is actually. I put placeholder numbers, but am in no way married to them, as they're not actually that relevant to the suggestion. I don't care what the exact numbers are, because the end goal isn't to push certain numbers, it's to propose a change in mechanics, and introduce a degree of participation in an infamously perfunctory and overpicked mechanic. The numbers I picked were meant to represent a ballpark of what I felt would be sensible, but in hindsight, it probably was a mistake to even attempt to list any numbers at all, as it just gave people like you an opening to make facile accusations of wanting to nerf stuff.

9 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Also, it would functionally barely differ from the current situation, so what's the entire thread for, then?

Wait, so would it change things or wouldn't it? Because just a single reply ago, you were crowing about how it would completely alter the mechanic by requiring "live targets", and now you're doing a 180 and claiming it would apparently change nothing. You've tunnel-visioned so hard on trying to label my suggestion a nerf that you've missed the actual intent behind it, which is to change a mechanic that currently has no gameplay into something that has at least a modicum of gameplay. I don't even particularly care whether the end result would be a buff or nerf to the Energy economy, so long as people start shooting more as the Operator and picking more schools besides Zenurik.

9 hours ago, Colyeses said:

More player participation in energy gain = less participation in gunplay, ability use and mobility = nerf.

Except you are participating in all of that, as the Operator has guns, abilities, and mobility. What even are you claiming is being nerfed here? You're making strictly no sense here, and are relying on overused buzzwords in the place of actual substance.

9 hours ago, Colyeses said:

I mean, you asked for clarification as to why this would be a nerf, and you keep arguing that it would be a nerf, but you just heap on a bit of condescending attitude for some reason.

This is a flat-out lie, as I never expressed that my change was ever intended to be a nerf. At most, I stated that our Energy economy could stand to be nerfed owing to how out of control it is, and that statement immediately followed a rebuttal to the accusation that my suggestion was a nerf. It is not condescending to point out your attitude here is fundamentally not intended to be constructive (because it clearly isn't), and given the fact that your own attitude here has been nothing but antagonistic, supercilious, and strangely personally involved, it's safe to say you're projecting here.

9 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Because that's called balance.

Riiiiight, because that's how that works. I guess there's no point in questioning where you pulled out that luminary bit of explanation, given how much your arguments so far have been reflective of your expertise on the matter.

9 hours ago, Colyeses said:

You literally started this thread because Zenurik's energy regen is too good of a tool in comparison to the other schools, and that's why Zenurik is getting picked almost exclusively. Do you just selectively forget your own motivations when it suits you or something? Do you just blank out and forget the entirety of every single Tenno school focus tree for this 'zinger'?

It seems that in your desperate rush to throw barbs at me through whichever means possible, you've once again completely lost the plot: the problem here wasn't that Zenurik's Energy regen was too good (it is, but that's another can of worms), but that it was exclusive to Zenurik. Energy regen is so desirable in our present environment that it cannot possibly be framed as a choice, because very little else can compete with it, which is why I proposed to cut out the middle man and make it a universally accessible mechanic to anyone with an Operator. This is also why I don't think it makes sense to make it a Focus school option: for a while, I did believe that was the way to go, but then realized that giving every Focus school their own source of Energy regen was just this pointlessly convoluted exercise in redundancy, when one could do a much more efficient job by taking that regen out of Focus and into some other universal mechanic. So yeah, I didn't forget my "own motivations" or "forget the entirety of every single Tenno school", you just managed to confuse yourself again by superimposing your own scatterbrained rationale over my post.

9 hours ago, Colyeses said:

Every time, dude, your mind is a flipping enigma. 

I think the more accurate statement is that you can't seem to understand what I have to say, because your comically vindictive grudge-holding makes you not want to understand what I have to say. You didn't come here to actually listen to my suggestions or the reasoning behind them, you came here to pick a fight, in a long-standing tradition of arguments you've picked against me and badly lost. You're so consumed by hate against me that you can't see that you're humiliating yourself, if only because you're incapable of hiding your grudge, let alone let go of it.

The saddest part is, I actually thought you were doing pretty well lately: in other threads, I caught a few of your posts, and thought they were pretty solid. You've clearly become capable of producing strong arguments and reasoning, in a forum that could use a lot more of that. Imagine then my disappointment when you reverted to old habits on this thread, and started throwing out the old vitriol in a series of posts that clearly never had any intention to elevate discssion, or even be at all constructive. Come on, man, you're better than this.

[(XBOX)Calliber]

One of the more unique ideas I've seen for a while regarding the issue of Zenurik's popularity, and I'm not against this.  Tweak the numbers a bit and we could have something; definitely would want to see this ran through playtesting.  The issues obviously would be with the high energy demanding builds, most my builds are light on energy use and I still keep Zen as my school because I refuse to use pizza's (and feel like they should either be removed from the game or have a cooldown/cap-per-mission added to their usage for energy economy purposes).  Now I don't know how much other peoples high energy builds rely on Energy Pads so it might not be a problem at all in the long run.  But removing the energy regen from the school and placing it on the Amp/damage type might be worth exploring. 

 

[Teridax68]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Calliber said:

One of the more unique ideas I've seen for a while regarding the issue of Zenurik's popularity, and I'm not against this.  Tweak the numbers a bit and we could have something; definitely would want to see this ran through playtesting.  The issues obviously would be with the high energy demanding builds, most my builds are light on energy use and I still keep Zen as my school because I refuse to use pizza's (and feel like they should either be removed from the game or have a cooldown/cap-per-mission added to their usage for energy economy purposes).  Now I don't know how much other peoples high energy builds rely on Energy Pads so it might not be a problem at all in the long run.  But removing the energy regen from the school and placing it on the Amp/damage type might be worth exploring. 

 

Thank you! I also agree, playtesting would have to determine what the right numbers would be, but I also agree that Zenurik's popularity doesn't come mainly from it saving super Energy-hungry builds (though it does help with them too somewhat), but from it acting as a convenience for any other sort of build over consumables, and sometimes arcanes. Even in a world without that regen at all, we'd still technically be able to give ourselves unlimited Energy through pizzas, it's just that Zenurik eliminates the need to constantly craft them for most of our needs. I don't think the suggestions would make all Focus schools suddenly all equally desirable, as several of them have been badly nerfed over time and need a boost, but hopefully it should at least help even the scales somewhat.

[Slayer-.]

 

On 2021-01-26 at 4:09 PM, KitMeHarder said:

• This is a nerf in many ways
• Doesn't solve the issue that the other 3+ trees aren't worth using
• Restricts the amps and Virtuous arcanes you can use massively
• And you just made Naramon the go to school

Instead, you could have done something like make the trees modular, so people can pick-and-choose what they want with their energy regen.

Or you could have made each school regen energy in it's own unique way.

• Naramon - Executing Dash now gives a chance for enemies to drop energy orbs on finisher instead of the worthless damage increase.
• Unairu - Could have built in mini Rage instead of the worthless damage reflection.
• Vazarin - Could give you 1 energy per second, per ally in affinity range. Doubling for 10 seconds each time you buff/heal/shield an ally, one stack per ally.
• Madurai - IDK

Etc...

I like your modular idea and each school with it's own unique way of creating energy it would give new players more options to just picking Zenurik.

I started with Madurai then went to Zenurik I have them all unlocked, it would be awesome if each one had their little quirk for energy, they'd get more use that way.

I personally like playing some missions as operator because of how powerful they can be if you use them properly.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

IMO, void damage should just deal true damage.

When void procs, it should allow the portion of void damage to bypass armour and shields. 
 

This is different from corrosive because it doesn’t lower the targets armour. It’s different to slash because it isn’t damage over time, and different to toxin for the same reason.

Magnetic should continue to half shields as it does, but also create the singularity that void currently does.

This feels thematically appropriate to me, the void is foreign to everything. It should feel dangerous.

Or, any projectile that procs void should gain infinite punch through.

[Kaggelos]

On 2021-01-26 at 7:09 AM, KitMeHarder said:

• This is a nerf in many ways
• Doesn't solve the issue that the other 3+ trees aren't worth using
• Restricts the amps and Virtuous arcanes you can use massively
• And you just made Naramon the go to school

Instead, you could have done something like make the trees modular, so people can pick-and-choose what they want with their energy regen.

Or you could have made each school regen energy in it's own unique way.

• Naramon - Executing Dash now gives a chance for enemies to drop energy orbs on finisher instead of the worthless damage increase.
• Unairu - Could have built in mini Rage instead of the worthless damage reflection.
• Vazarin - Could give you 1 energy per second, per ally in affinity range. Doubling for 10 seconds each time you buff/heal/shield an ally, one stack per ally.
• Madurai - IDK

Etc...

Absolutely effing yes please!

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

It was implicit in your example of Lavos. Why else would you choose him?

For science of course. /sarcasm

The amount of crazy stuffs, changed words etc is huge. And I don't want to wast time.

[Teridax68]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

For science of course. /sarcasm

And the actual, non-sarcastic response is... ? Why pick Lavos, if not for his 4?

1 hour ago, quxier said:

The amount of crazy stuffs, changed words etc is huge. And I don't want to wast time.

You've had no qualms wasting time thus far. Hopefully by spending less time typing nonsense, you might finally acknowledge what's wrong with your position here.

[UcanDomates]

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