Why using warframe energy instead of flux energy is a very bad idea

[Jjackal]

1. Engineering

Engineering in railjack has already been a pretty sparse role. In the most efficient setups it basically consists of supplying dome charges to the forward guns, some regular missiles for breaking crewship shields, flux for the pilot to burst down fighters, and rarely omni fluid to repair the ship.

Tying flux to warframe energy takes out one more thing engineers can actually do to feel useful. With this change in addition to having resources regenerate for everyone over time and the removal of hull breaches (potentially even LESS use for omni fluid) engineers may become practically obsolete.

2. Forcing Warframe Builds and Consumable Use/Abuse

Now certain warframes are going to innately be better in railjack for pilot or gunner roles because they have more base energy. Primed flow may become mandatory, since we are used to having 500+ energy to spare on these abilities, energy we won't have access to without primed flow. If efficiency mods affect this as well, it becomes even worse.

Additionally, there are very few ways of getting energy while ON the railjack. Namely: energy pads, zenurik focus school, and killing boarders (which you shouldn't have with a half decent pilot).

So now energy pads are going to be borderline mandatory for the missions, zenurik gets used even more (not that there is a reason to use other focus schools anyhow), and warframes will need to build with energy in mind, meaning sacrificing already good builds for railjack specific ones.

Even if these build changes are seen as good by DE for "diversifying things", it should be noted that this is done to improve flow. A flow that is disrupted by going "oop, time to drop another energy pad!"

3. Outliers

These are more questions than issues, but are potential issues that I do not trust DE to anticipate, much like the lack of energy availablility on railjack

1. Hyldrin - Are the railjack abilities going to use her shield? In that case she will become incredibly powerful, not only able to not sacrifice her main build for a railjack one, but also with insane capacity and regeneration for energy. If not, then what? Have her own bar? Can't use railjack abilities? No matter what, this seems bad.
2. Lavos - Same thing but cooldowns instead of shields
3. Operator - Has a quickly regenerating energy pool, are operators just now unable to be pilots? If so, why? It was a good way to level amps.

[Mazen2013]

Pushing people to use specific Warframes / mods for Warframes in a mode where Warframes are not the main focus is bad.

Solution: Create a new Railjack component "Generator" that has the following attributes:

• Max Energy
• Passive Energy Regen
• Bonus Energy from engineered restores

[Tzarl]

Yeah this was the one change I was really scratching my head at. I get wanting to separate out the energy spending for crewmembers (even though I liked that sense of shared resources, especially with engineering's role in restoring it) but pulling directly from Warframe energy just pulls a lot of the pressures and problems with frames' energy economy right into Railjack. I'm worried that ability use is going to become very feast or famine; either you have the means to spam abilities as much as you want (which defeats the purpose of even having energy) or you don't (and you don't bother with abilities at all).

 

I think I would have preferred separating out Railjack energy among teammates but still tying it to the Plexus. Have a way for players to see each others' Flux Energy levels, and make it so engineering restoring Flux energy restores it to each crewmate. That way engineering still can support the other roles directly, we don't have to worry about energy pizza spam breaking the energy economy, and players won't feel pressured to only consider taking high energy pool warframes and tools like Arcane Energize over anything else.

 

It also adds one more axis to consider when modding the Plexus. Warframe modding is much more diverse than weapons because with weapons it's all about damage (and maybe rarely utility), but with Warframes you might want to prioritize or balance survivability, mobility, support, utility, different powers, and augments which can alter gameplay, in addition to damage, all depending on what warframe you use and how you want to use it. Without energy and ability use being moddable with the Plexus, what kinds of choices will players have to actually make? I'm worried that the Plexus might just end up being a progression system with maybe two or three choices that feel worthwhile enough to give up some raw power for and a bunch of mods that end up feeling like traps because you can't justify reducing your Plexus's effectiveness to run them.

[Hera.Ci]

Warframe's energy economy is already so busted and Railjack was already using a better system. This change just has so many obvious flaws! Why make the game even more overcentralized around Zenurik, Dispensary, and Arcane Energize?

 

[Bakaguya-sama]

Don't forget: Protea's Dispenser. Doing this will force everyone to bring Protea to Railjack, or at least a Warframe with Dispenser helminth'd in. I don't know if that's what DE wants, but that is what going to happen if they keep their idea of tying Warframe Energy to Railjack Energy. People gonna cast dispenser on top of their seat to keep their energy topped off. 

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Yeah it is a rather bad decision indeed. For one, it forces players to used specialised builds combining stuff like Preparation, Prime Flow, Streamine, Fleeting Expertise , Zenurik , Energize, Dispensary, energy pizzas to keep the ship running. It also makes Engineering even more pointless, as now if you can manage to avoid damage, you literally never have to go to the foundry mid mission to replenish your flux. Finally it is also a terrible idea for the energy economy , both because people will be able to nonstop spam stuff like void hole and tether provided they use stuff like a dispensary or zenurik bubble, but it also kinda sucks when you have to leave the ship to board something, as chances are you will have to do so with a frame with empty energy... Keep those two energy pools mostly separated plzzz.

It is also really , really stupid for a gigantic Orokin Spaceship to use the energy pool of a warframe to use its armaments...

So yeah, keep both energy counters separated, have energy capacity and efficiency handled by repairable Railjack Components , keep the ability to craft flux from the foundry , but make it so flux crafted from the foundry is given to every players ( EX: Two Players had full flux already, they see no difference , one was missing 50. he is now full ,the last one was empty, he now has 200 flux).

This would keep giving the engineer a job AND maybe make it so that excess energy looted by a frame while inside the ship gets added to the ship flux capacity (Ex: Your Frame has a full energy pool, he pops a zenurik bubble , now the excess energy goes to replenish his personal flux, maybe with a diminishing percentage returned so it doesnt fill back in a split second). That way a pilot can still replenish his ship energy while staying in the cockpit or looting energy orbs from invaders or through stuff like energy pizzas if his crew is not providing regular flux refills, but the bulk of energy would be recovered from the foundry, as it is better to refill 200 Flux of every player than to place an energy bubble and have the whole team stand idle in there.

[DoomFruit]

14 hours ago, Hera.Ci said:

Warframe's energy economy is already so busted and Railjack was already using a better system. This change just has so many obvious flaws! Why make the game even more overcentralized around Zenurik, Dispensary, and Arcane Energize?

 

Worse. It's going to be Hildryn only. Shields recharge on their own and they do it pretty fast, so you'll never even have to bother about getting out of your seat to reapply Zenurik.

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

I absolutely agree. Just make Battle Avionics cool down based (per player), with the reactor modifying cooldowns, or have three separate energy pools, one for each seat, whose maximum value and regen speed are affected by the reactor. This way you address the separate pools (even though there's no need for it...) without completely breaking the energy economy with Warframe's broken energy economy (oh the irony). 

Make the engineer capable of crafting Flux in bulk, or overclocking the reactor for increased regeneration, or why not, both at the same time. The engineer desperately needs an active role instead of the passive, reactionary one we have, it would be incredibly cool if they could increase the effectiveness of various ship systems on the fly through resources, with added visual feedback for their actions (like assist points, graphical effects when systems are powered up, cephalon Cy complimenting you) so it feels as satisfying as possible.   

[Vaml77]

I was wondering who proposed these absurdities to link energy from warframes to railjack .... this is the worst idea of the last few years. Why not leave it at that? Why take the relevance out of engineers? I sincerely hope that DE does not make this change. If it comes that way I just stop playing warframe .... it's absurd!

[CaptainMinty]

On 2021-03-08 at 8:50 PM, Jjackal said:

1. Engineering

Engineering in railjack has already been a pretty sparse role. In the most efficient setups it basically consists of supplying dome charges to the forward guns, some regular missiles for breaking crewship shields, flux for the pilot to burst down fighters, and rarely omni fluid to repair the ship.

Tying flux to warframe energy takes out one more thing engineers can actually do to feel useful. With this change in addition to having resources regenerate for everyone over time and the removal of hull breaches (potentially even LESS use for omni fluid) engineers may become practically obsolete.

Instead of trying to preserve the current engineer role, we should do more to improve it. Give the Engineer more to do in the forge, and give refining more of a job. Perhaps the Engineer could actively empower specific parts of the Railjack by rerouting power from different sections. Reduce engine speed to increase power to weapons. Boost energy generation by forging energy cells that empower an ability? Current engineering is in need of more things to do.

That being said, tying flux to warframe energy does hurt engineer as a role, but it's basically kicking it while it's down.

On 2021-03-08 at 8:50 PM, Jjackal said:

2. Forcing Warframe Builds and Consumable Use/Abuse

 

Now certain warframes are going to innately be better in railjack for pilot or gunner roles because they have more base energy. Primed flow may become mandatory, since we are used to having 500+ energy to spare on these abilities, energy we won't have access to without primed flow. If efficiency mods affect this as well, it becomes even worse.

 

Additionally, there are very few ways of getting energy while ON the railjack. Namely: energy pads, zenurik focus school, and killing boarders (which you shouldn't have with a half decent pilot).

So now energy pads are going to be borderline mandatory for the missions, zenurik gets used even more (not that there is a reason to use other focus schools anyhow), and warframes will need to build with energy in mind, meaning sacrificing already good builds for railjack specific ones.

Even if these build changes are seen as good by DE for "diversifying things", it should be noted that this is done to improve flow. A flow that is disrupted by going "oop, time to drop another energy pad!"

Two pizzas can fill 800 energy into a Volt Prime with a near maxed Primed Flow. That's 8 shots of Seeker Volley, which is 400 missiles, which can kill about 100 enemies on Veil Proxima if all shots hit. Now imagine you have 3 Volt Primes filled by those 2 pads. It gets nuts. The sheer amount of energy abuse that is possible with very little resources is absurd with the proposed changes. And Seeker Volley while good, isn't the best by a longshot.

Changing builds specifically for Railjack will be an issue. Though I more likely think players will swap to a more energy happy frame like Protea before bothering with too much build changing. It's easier and doesn't cost forma. Either way, I have 211 energy pizzas just sitting in my inventory, and I'm not even trying to build up a reserve of them. I'm sure there are others with vastly more in their inventory.

On 2021-03-08 at 8:50 PM, Jjackal said:

3. Outliers

 

These are more questions than issues, but are potential issues that I do not trust DE to anticipate, much like the lack of energy availablility on railjack

 

1. Hyldrin - Are the railjack abilities going to use her shield? In that case she will become incredibly powerful, not only able to not sacrifice her main build for a railjack one, but also with insane capacity and regeneration for energy. If not, then what? Have her own bar? Can't use railjack abilities? No matter what, this seems bad.
2. Lavos - Same thing but cooldowns instead of shields
3. Operator - Has a quickly regenerating energy pool, are operators just now unable to be pilots? If so, why? It was a good way to level amps.

Hildryn will be a problem I agree. Same with Lavos. Both will be either strong, or not. As for the Operator, I'll definitely miss having the idea of my Operator having a grand time being the pilot with their own hands. I'm sure it feels different piloting yourself instead of using a Warframe to do it.


Railjack's energy economy is busted as is. Flux is pretty abundant and the resources to spam it are too. The stores are large, and the amount that one can forge at once is pretty high too. The proposed changes are a massive buff to Railjack energy, and are a terrible idea because it will make the tether void hole spam even more egregious, and even if they nerf tether, there's still the problem of having infinite energy to spam other abilities like Seeker Volley.

[Mattoropael]

Hildryn can be partially addressed by having her shield cost for Battle Avionics follow Helminth subsume logic (i.e. costs 10 times the shield of the original energy value).

That way she still has the innate regeneration, but not the absurd burst capacity. (In fact, she'd have less max "energy" compared to a 100 base energy frame with P Flow, unless you really go for the meme max shield builds)

[DoomFruit]

7 hours ago, Mattoropael said:

Hildryn can be partially addressed by having her shield cost for Battle Avionics follow Helminth subsume logic (i.e. costs 10 times the shield of the original energy value).

That way she still has the innate regeneration, but not the absurd burst capacity. (In fact, she'd have less max "energy" compared to a 100 base energy frame with P Flow, unless you really go for the meme max shield builds)

Burst capacity is one thing, but pretty much all the useful abilities either have an enforced cooldown (the Itano Circus) or there's no real reason to spam them (tether, void hole). Hildryn is going to refill her shields faster than you cast powers.

Also, this really is an absurd situation - using warframes to power a space gunship. If that works, why can't I just build a bunch of Volt Primes, give them energy siphons and shove them in some little nook of the ship to give me infinite power?

[ceilyn]

I'm a Lavos main and since his abilities work on timer rather than energy my railjack always reads as 0 energy if i pilot with him. the whole dynamic is something of a thorn in my side right now

[Sahfiel]

As a player that uses dispenser on lots of frames simply so I can spam my arch gun for funsies...

I also think tying stuff to warframe energy sounds like a bad idea. Ship progression shouldn't get tied to warframe progression.

[RazerXPrime]

I do miss flux energy, but with how op Railjack crew members are now I haven't needed to cast a single ability since. Why would I cast abilities if my crew oneshots everything? The whole battle mods and energy thing are superfluous now.

Having your energy drain to use a ship ability and then having to go to the enginering section to replenish is dumb and a waste of time too. And I don't want to rely on a single frame or helminth ability to play and restrict me. I bring whatever is fun and go with that. They just went a bit overboard with simplifying the game.