Why I'm not playing WF (at least currently)

[Felsagger]

Just now, Zimzala said:

See?

Once again, any discussion with you boils down to you thinking you have to 'win' and 'teabag' your 'opponent'.

You despise that environment but it is about competition. 

It's a jungle that we PvP players have to endure. We need a thick skin. If we take it personal then with all honesty many of us should stop playing PvP. 

With a passive voice I will answer this. You hate PvP players. Now I understand your mindset. 

Just now, Zimzala said:

Why would anyone really want to interact with a person like that?

You do realize that PvP games are about who is better at something right? 

Any competition is about EXACTLY that. 

Homework for you. Tell me what is the phycology about competition? 

Just now, Zimzala said:

I guess, again, trying to converse with you has proven again I should not click on those posters I have on ignore.

Unfortunate.

Then why you came? To troll? Sorry but you should put me on ignore list and never remove my name. You are not contributing anything at all to this conversation. 

[Felsagger]

6 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

PvE players and PvP players aren't distinct groups. The fact that you (In response to Zimzala) claim to have never seen a game where players play both PvP and PvE only proves that, like a lot of people on this forum, you don't know a lot of games beyond Warframe, if any.

Thank you. 

We are part of this community. Many of us enjoy pve and pvp. 

[PublikDomain]

18 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Bold mine.

Sure, you reference features as well bugs.

What? I'm not talking about bugs lol. "Incomplete and flawed", yeah? Meaning the features are incomplete. They're missing. This isn't a bug, it's a lack of a full feature set. The balance is flawed. Putting player damage outputs against other players is imbalanced and is why the Armistice was added and why Conclave took its place. But Conclave has flawed balance, too, because the low TTK often results in an unending game of whack-a-mole as players disengage and heal up between shots. "Broken" as in "unfair". Forced ragdolling on ground slams are broken, they're cheap, unfair, unsportsmanlike, etc. This isn't some uncommon terminology, Zim.

18 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Here, the conversation is still around adding a PvP mode and thinking that more PvE players, possibly long term, will roll over into PvP players.

Why wouldn't they? And it's not "adding" I'm talking about, we've already got it. I'm talking about improving it and making it worthwhile.

It seems obvious to me that if you improve something, more people will be able to enjoy it. No?

[Zimzala]

8 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

PvE players and PvP players aren't distinct groups. The fact that you claim to have never seen a game where players play both PvP and PvE only proves that, like a lot of people on this forum, you don't know a lot of games beyond Warframe, if any.

Not what I said.

At scale, PvE populations are traditionally IME not interested in rolling into PvP players, even if they dabble, that's what I said.

There is crossover, I was very clear there, but at scale, PvE players have shown consistently on GaaS games that they are not interested in rolling into PvP players at scale.

Those that really love PvP do, IME, see the world in a different light than most PvE players when it comes to 'fun', I have been playing with them as close friends for decades, been having these conversations on GaaS game forums since they have existed.

None of it is black and white, I never claimed that.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

And here we go around the Warframe PvP carousel again. I've had many conversations fighting against seeing futher development on it from DE given the history of it but my feelings have completely changed on the matter in the past few months and that is:

Now is the time to consider it.

(probably going to eat some crow for it but meh)

There's alot of momentum with The New War. Tennocon saw the games biggest turnout numbers of all time. So with that in mind and the excitment that Teshin, Veso and Kahl brings along with it:

Its brings new opportunity. And DE should wise up to it. 

I've been against it for years. So right now I feel like a hypocrite but I'll eat that crow and move on. Situations change. 

Now is the time to ask for it. And it can be done. And I don't think that it will overall seriously effect production of the overall game moving forward.

Warframe reuses assets all the time. So why limit Teshin, Kahl and Veso to a one off quest? Maybe their overall mechanics are apart of the Operators in PvE post New War but the assest of the 3 characters can also be reused, and others post New War because it won't be the last time we will likely play Grinner, Corpus, Dax characters. (Infested likely next up in the batters box for this)

And with Tencent backing DE seems to be getting alot more resources, just look at the new Cinamatic trailer. That must have been pretty costly for them to get done.

So yeah I've switched sides. They should seriously consider it. If they are spending millions on a new trailer they should also look to expand the devteam and create a dedicated PvP team as well.

And I haven't even mentioned crossplay/Save and Mobile yet.

So yes, It can be done. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Felsagger]

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

And here we go around the Warframe PvP carousel again. I've had many conversations fighting against seeing futher development on it from DE given the history of it but my feelings have completely changed on the matter in the past few months and that is:

Now is the time to consider it.

(probably going to eat some crow for it but meh)

There's alot of momentum with The New War. Tennocon saw the games biggest turnout numbers of all time. So with that in mind and the excitment that Teshin, Veso and Kahl brings along with it:

Its brings new opportunity. And DE should wise up to it. 

I've been against it for years. So right now I feel like a hypocrite but I'll eat that crow and move on. Situations change. 

Now is the time to ask for it. And it can be done. And I don't think that it will overall seriously effect production of the overall game moving forward.

Warframe reuses assets all the time. So why limit Teshin, Kahl and Veso to a one off quest? Maybe their overall mechanics are apart of the Operators in PvE post New War but the assest of the 3 characters can also be reused, and others post New War because it won't be the last time we will likely play Grinner, Corpus, Dax characters. (Infested likely next up in the batters box for this)

And with Tencent backing DE seems to be getting alot more resources, just look at the new Cinamatic trailer. That must have been pretty costly for them to get done.

So yeah I've switched sides. They should seriously consider it. If they are spending millions on a new trailer they should also look to expand the devteam and create a dedicated PvP team as well.

And I haven't even mentioned crossplay/Save and Mobile yet.

So yes, It can be done. 

 

I can't believe that I agree with one of your comment 100 percent. :P

It did happen. lol. 

[Zimzala]

18 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

What? I'm not talking about bugs lol. "Incomplete and flawed", yeah? Meaning the features are incomplete. They're missing. This isn't a bug, it's a lack of a full feature set. The balance is flawed. Putting player damage outputs against other players is imbalanced and is why the Armistice was added and why Conclave took its place. But Conclave has flawed balance, too, because the low TTK often results in an unending game of whack-a-mole as players disengage and heal up between shots. "Broken" as in "unfair". Forced ragdolling on ground slams are broken, they're cheap, unfair, unsportsmanlike, etc. This isn't some uncommon terminology, Zim.

Why wouldn't they? And it's not "adding" I'm talking about, we've already got it. I'm talking about improving it and making it worthwhile.

It seems obvious to me that if you improve something, more people will be able to enjoy it. No?

Ok, fine, no bugs mentioned.

Sure, making things better is always nice, but how many more will actually play is the rub, that's where the ROI is.

Making PvP 'better' is a fine goal.

But thinking WF PvE based players will flock to a PvP mode seems illogical, based on the history we have witnessed, as well as seeing other GaaS games try to convert PvE players to PvP.

I would love a good CTF mode myself in WF, but I have no expectation that will ever occur, nor do I think there is something 'missing' if it's not there.

However, I would probably not play it, simply because I really got tired long ago of the personalities of the hardcore PvP crowd, as demonstrated here in this very thread, there is just too much testosterone for my tastes. If it comes with a real ignore feature so I can avoid playing with jerks with a couple mouse clicks, then I would be all over it, but we don't even have that in PvE.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

1 minute ago, Felsagger said:

 

I can't believe that I agree with one of your comment 100 percent. :P

It did happen. lol. 

[Felsagger]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

I play a lot PvP cross play with Xbox players. These guys are insatiable competitors. :P

In a PvP match we where a PS4 players vs Xbox players. We got our ass split in few Overwatch matches. You guys are brutal, lmao. :3. 

Never had so much fun in a PvP match. The pool increased the intensity of competition even in quick play. 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

2 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

But thinking WF PvE based players will flock to a PvP mode seems illogical, based on the history we have witnessed, as well as seeing other GaaS games try to convert PvE players to PvP.

But your not really converting anyone. No one really needs to flock to it who isn't interested in it that strictly wants PvE exclusive content.

But I think having a new way to experience the game but remaining distinctly Warframe would at least draw curiosity towards it.

7 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

I play a lot PvP cross play with Xbox players. These guys are insatiable competitors. :P

In a PvP match we where a PS4 players vs Xbox players. We got our ass split in few Overwatch matches. You guys are brutal, lmao. :3. 

Never had so much fun in a PvP match. The pool increased the intensity of competition even in quick play. 

My job is a PvPvE environment 🤣 i work a 4 week rotation in remote areas. When potential hazards are Timber Wolves and someone who "misbehaves" you kinda have to be 🤣

[PublikDomain]

24 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Ok, fine, no bugs mentioned.

Sure, making things better is always nice, but how many more will actually play is the rub, that's where the ROI is.

Making PvP 'better' is a fine goal.

But thinking WF PvE based players will flock to a PvP mode seems illogical, based on the history we have witnessed, as well as seeing other GaaS games try to convert PvE players to PvP.

Flock? No, but enough would try it and if it were good that it could become a solid part of the endgame for those interested. I'm not expecting 50% of the playerbase to convert to hardcore PvP players, it'd be fine if 2-5% just give it a shot. If only 0.5% of the game's usual 40k average CCU were playing Conclave then there'd be 25 full games going at a time. That's more than enough. A quarter of that would be enough.

24 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

I would love a good CTF mode myself in WF, but I have no expectation that will ever occur, nor do I think there is something 'missing' if it's not there.

Conclave already has CTF. It always has lol.

24 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

However, I would probably not play it

So don't? It's as simple as that.

I'm not interested in forcing PvE players to play PvP. I'm interested in having PvP as a good option for PvE players who are open to it. Just like how I'm interested in constructive gameplay for players who are open to it, or difficult content for players who are open to it, or social content for players who are open to it, etc. Even if I'm not personally interested, I fully support these kinds of ideas because I see the value in having a good, healthy endgame. And having that is all about having many different activities for many different players, not the one or two activities Zim and Sneaky approve of and nothing else.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

57 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

However, I would probably not play it, simply because I really got tired long ago of the personalities of the hardcore PvP crowd.

Now this is also why my stance towards PvP has changed. I think Warframe dosent have to worry about that.

It's one of the reasons why we would play it but not the only reason since it's still Warframe. PvE side is the #1 reason why we're all here in the first place.

So Warframe won't lose its identity. If it's distinctly Warframe....then it's still Warframe.

And if it's not the #1 reason then PvE still has nothing to worry about.

Especially if PvE isn't impacted at all when it could have it's own team devoted to it. DEs clearly getting alot more backing by Tencent just see that trailer.....that must have cost alot to do.

If they can make even more $$ then I don't think it's unreasonable for Tencent to give DE dedicated resources for it either.

[Zimzala]

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

If they can make even more $$ then I don't think it's unreasonable for Tencent to give DE dedicated resources for it either.

But that is the rub, will they make more $$?

DE has put resources into PvP multiple times.

If there had been ROI, one would think they would have continued.

This is the root of the issue here.

Based on history, adding/improving/encouraging PvP in WF has, thus far, apparently NOT generated 'even more $$'.

Therefore, with no other data at hand, the pro-PvP crowd just keeps saying 'make it better and they will come', but that has not proven to be reality on multiple occasions.

Sure, the PvP players can critique the DE implementation until the heat death of the universe, but that won't change the outlook of the PvE population that has not been interested, even if there are a few posters here convinced they know how to do it better.

Would love to see DE and WF expand their overall market footprint into PvP, but so far their own experiments have shown it is not profitable for them.

Now, as well, with the market saturation of dedicated PvP games, it looks like an even worse place to spend money, again, because unless you build something PvP focused it will never compete with those that are, and the PvP players won't migrate, IME.

[Zimzala]

51 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I'm not interested in forcing PvE players to play PvP. I'm interested in having PvP as a good option for PvE players who are open to it. Just like how I'm interested in constructive gameplay for players who are open to it, or difficult content for players who are open to it, or social content for players who are open to it, etc. Even if I'm not personally interested, I fully support these kinds of ideas because I see the value in having a good, healthy endgame. And having that is all about having many different activities for many different players, not the one or two activities Zim and Sneaky approve of and nothing else.

And that's all fine, but it still remains an ROI decision.

There is plenty of content already I don't find particularly interesting, I don't play it, no biggie.

But this is not about what either of us want to play, it's about where DE can spend resources and get ROI.

The history thus far shows DE that PvP does not generate profit form my POV.

You and others just keep saying 'but if they did it right'...which can be said of any group - if someone makes a better PvP, then the PvP players will play it.

I am not against ANYTHING being added to WF, never said that, never even implied it.

What I am saying is that a few posters in the General Forum thinking PvP would 'be great' is not a business case to get DE to change the allocation of resources.

I mean it when I say, if people really want something, it is within their power to make it happen.

WF started as a twinkle in someone's eye.

One or more of the people that want WF to have better PvP could pick up the torch in the right way and make that happen, if they can convince DE with real facts and a real business case.

Instead, we have Forum PvP with many posters simply trying to land zingers to 'prove' something...IME.

I am not trying to stop the conversation, I am literally saying "if you think there is ROI, then put your money where your mouth is".

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

23 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Now, as well, with the market saturation of dedicated PvP games, it looks like an even worse place to spend money, again, because unless you build something PvP focused it will never compete with those that are, and the PvP players won't migrate, IME.

No ones calling for Warframe to change to become a dedicated PvP game.

But including a solid PvP experience isn't an unreasonable request either. And I used to have my heels sunk deep on the same side of the debate as you.

23 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

But that is the rub, will they make more $$?.

I'd say so and you know how? Cosmetics. It's not like they can't have a PvP page dedicated to the PvP side of Cosmetics, what's one more tab?

You saying no one would be interested in Grineer, Corpus and Dax skins for those 3 characters? Or the other facrtions you can potentially add (Corrupted, Infested, Sentient)

Add support through Tennogen.

Just more Cosmetics for players to have access to. Not to mention if we have access to them in the future they can be used in both PvE and PvP.

So everyone wins.

That's 100% within reason for anyone at DE or for a Tennogen artist to do. Hell DE could literally have contracted artists do the whole thing and all they have to do is say yes or no.

It's happening more and more already.

[Zimzala]

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

No ones calling for Warframe to change to become a dedicated PvP game.

But including a solid PvP experience isn't an unreasonable request either. And I used to have my heels sunk deep on the same side of the debate as you.

I'd say so and you know how? Cosmetics. It's not like they can't have a PvP page to dedicated to the PvP side of Cosmetics.

You saying no one would be interested in Grineer, Corpus and Dax skins for those 3 characters? Or the other facrtions you can potentially add (Corrupted, Infested, Sentient)

Add support through Tennogen.

Just more Cosmetics for players to have access to. Not to mention if we have access to them in the future they can be used in both PvE and PvP.

So everyone wins.

That's 100% within reason for anyone at DE or for a Tennogen artist to do. Hell DE could literally have contracted artists do the whole thing and all they have to do is say yes or no.

It's happening more and more already.

So, your business case is this?

That if they just add cosmetics to PvP, the whole thing will work, become profitable, etc.?

Really?

The very best PvPers I have know ALL eschew cosmetics - they turn down all graphic settings to minimums for best headshot aiming, hit random for character creation and away they go.

If you really think just adding PvP exclusive cosmetics will 'turn the tide', well, good luck with that.

PS: I did not say anyone was calling for WF to be PvP exclusive, only that if it actually wants to compete for PvP players, it will need real dedicated resources.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

21 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

So, your business case is this?

That if they just add cosmetics to PvP, the whole thing will work, become profitable, etc.?

Really?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Considering that the next supporter pack will have the new progressive cosmetic that changes while you meet certain requirements as you progress.

You could add the exact same rewards for PvP players. And they would carry over into PvE. 

Wouldn't that be a meaningful, worthwhile reward to have for a PvP mode to work on?

How many times do we hear "FashionFrame is endgame?" 

Your telling me that creating PvP cosmetics isn't a great business model when the games business model is literally "FashionFrame is endgame?"

The game wins overall if it has more ways to generate revenue 

So yes I am 100% saying that considering cosmetics are already a major source of revenue

[Zimzala]

11 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

So yes I am 100% saying that considering cosmetics are already a major source of revenue

Good luck.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

13 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Good luck.

Good luck? Take a look at Warframes market. Take a look at Resurgence Market.

Cosmetics and by a huge margin. 

Cosmetics are probably the most bought item. It's not like there's an Accessory Pack released every 3 months along Prime Access right? 

I mean I must be absolutely blind going through the market and missing the hundreds of Cosmetics options to choose from?

Good luck. The games already got the revenue stream to prove it.

All I did was add another tab for it. There's only more money to be made at this point.

I must be wrong to think DE is in business to make money right? It's not like are doing this for fun or out of the goodness of their hearts.

[Zimzala]

11 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Good luck? Take a look at Warframes market. Take a look at Resurgence Market.

Cosmetics and by a huge margin. 

Cosmetics are probably the most bought item. It's not like there's an Accessory Pack released every 3 months along Prime Access right? 

I mean I must be absolutely blind going through the market and missing the hundreds of Cosmetics options to choose from?

Good luck. The games already got the revenue stream to prove it.

All I did was add another tab for it. There's only more money to be made at this point.

I must be wrong to think DE is in business to make money right? It's not like like are doing this for fun or out of the goodness of their hearts.

So, since there is money from cosmetics involved you think that it will solve all the reasons that for years no one desired to PvP very much in WF.

Good luck with that.

You also seem to think from your prose I am somehow, I dunno, naïve, or something because I disagree cosmetics sold for many will magically make PvP popular. 

Cute.

So yeah, good luck.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

26 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

So, since there is money involved you think that it will solve all the reasons that for years no one desired to PvP very much in WF.

Absolutely without question money can be made. And it's morealess reusing assets from a quest or that already exist. And The New War literally gave Warframe is most successful sign in day Ever. 

Are you saying when you saw Kahl, Vezo and Teshin gameplay that it didn't excited you at all? Wouldn't you want more from it then just a one time use with these characters? If they die:

Take them and make a PvP mode and they live on. Create some awesome cosmetics for rewards for them along with Teshin.

Boom: Makings of great PvP. Plus you have room to expand with Infested and other fsctions. For example:

An Infested survival PvP/Zombie mode involving Grineer and Corpus.

Add in maybe a Survival mode where you can team up using these characters. That shouldn't be to hard to create right?

All of it already exist within the game already.

Your just reusing enemies weve been fighting for 8 years at this point. You could literally reuse PvE Tilesets, virtually all of them.

Plus you could add some of these rewards in Nightwave.  Keep all challenge with it all PvE related but:

They have a home in PvP if you didn't get them. And that accomplishes two things:

1) It gives incentives for players to at least check it out with a couple of free cosmetics earned in PvE to drive traffic to the mode.

2) Gives newer players something to shoot for if they enjoy it. Plus all the other rewards that the mode(s) will require.

Are you saying none that appeals to players? It's literally opening doors for everyone AND it's not a requirement so if you don't want to take part. Don't. 

This sounds a 100 times better then what Conclave is now. 

 

[Zimzala]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

Are you saying none that appeals to players? It's literally opening doors for everyone AND it's not a requirement so if you don't want to take part. Don't. 

Not at all.

I am sure some cosmetics in PvP would appeal to someone, if only you, for example.

I am saying you are making a wild ROI claim.

Just because a few people will buy some PvP cosmetics does not equal Grofit.

If it costs $1000 to make the new things for PvP and the cosmetics make $30-300, no Grofit.

So, you present no real business case, you present a guess, as a business reason to deploy resources.

Pretty funny to me, but good luck.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

30 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

If it costs $1000 to make the new things for PvP and the cosmetics make $30-300, no Grofit.

Always an element of risk in business. But I'd say taking an entirely new approach to PvP is worth the risk. I'm not talking about Conclave.

But a new approach based on the factions in game? I'm willing to bet players will check it out. 

30 minutes ago, Zimzala said:

Just because a few people will buy some PvP cosmetics does not equal Grofit.

Well when "FashionFrame is endgame" is literally seen as meaningful....I don't think just a few people care about cosmetics right? 

Cosmetics are a significant piece of revenue. That is 100% a fact. That's my business case. 

The times now to move on this. Just because PvP hasn't worked in the past doesn't mean that it can't have a future within Warframe. And the factions are honestly a great way to do it.

It's a whole new way to experience warframe....but it's still warframe. I don't see how reusing assets already built in-game is a waste of money. Another part of my business case.

It's not like your starting from scratch. Alot of the work is already completed. The money on man hours? Already spent. And if Tencent is giving DE the money to make amazing cinematic trailers (that trailer must have cost alot)  how are you hurting the Grofit margin when the hard work is already done?

It's definitely more of a business opportunity to make more money then it is to hurt profit margins. Especially when your not starting from search because everything is already available to do it.

The risk factor isn't as high as you believe to be.

 

 

[Zimzala]

13 minutes ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

The risk factor isn't as high as you believe to be.

So now not only are you a business wizard, but also a Risk Manager as well!

You must already have built several companies if you have all that!

This is really hilarious.

You have just 'decided' that this will cost almost nothing since there is no work to do (HAHAHAHAHA!!!), that it will be profitable, that there will be low risk to the investment, and that general success is all but guaranteed, just because people will flock to PvP because of some exclusive cosmetics.

Yeah, you really are entertaining, this is really funny...it's like an episode of The Office or something where a fresh hire decides to act like the CEO.

This is why most companies don't last a year, BTW, serious mis-management based on the Owners 'feelings'.

[Felsagger]

The player is interested in PvP not for the rewards. 

The player in warframe is interested in PvP for the challenge. 

All the tools can be attained in PvE side quests. That include the PvP mods and weapons. These will be available in PvE. Everybody will have access to these item. The parity of hardware will be guaranteed. 

There are three factions where PvP may evolve. These matches will provide collectibles when certain goals are achieved but these are cosmetics only. Weapons and mods will be available everywhere in the game in PvE. 

The progression of PvE will not be halted by the progression done in PvP. These are mutually exclusive. PvP will extend the LORE on these three factions. The idea of PvP is to revitalize the game during the draught times. 

Will PvP be profitable? Well that for sure retain a vast majority of players where the skills will be on the Grineer, The Corpus and the Sentinels where Techin belongs. Could this be extended towards the sentients. Probably yes, probably not. That depends on what DE wants with these factions. PvP could be improved with these entries. 

Warframes needs some different approach for the PvP game. Conquest mode or capture the flag could be a good place to start. Or an escort type game where two teams must perform certain tasks against each other. Again this is subjected to design and evolution with the community. 

A return of the solar rails is now more feasible due to the capital and personnel that DE may get. Again that depends on what their bosses wants with the game and what DE sees in the future of Warframe. Besides Solar Rails deserves a second chance in my opinion.