Drasiel Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 Edit: After some back and forth with @KitMeHarder The difference between failing to get to rotation C and being able to survive past it all comes down to Necramech Slipstream the +60% slide speed mod for necramechs. It almost triples your movement speed between orphixes negating the increase in spawn speed. For me the question now comes down to should one mod be that mandatory for a mission node? I really liked Orphix Venom, I loved fighting the orphixes and stomping around in my mech. During the event I could do the full rotation of orphixes (34 was it?) solo, it was tight and hectic by the end but a lot of fun and really satisfying. The orphix mission in the Veil proxima is miserable, it's not fun at all, I am actively struggling and after 3 days still have not reached rotation C solo. That seems like a ridiculous jump in difficulty, in no other endless mission have I ever been unable to reach rotation C solo if I set my mind to it. I'm using the same setup as in the event but with additional corrosive damage. Yet, I'm barely able to match a third of my performance in the event. So why is this? I think it's because of several minor changes that come together to make a much bigger impact on difficulty (especially solo) than they would appear to alone. So what has changed between the event and the addition of the mission? They start at a higher level - more ehp means longer kill time from the get go They level up faster - more armour, more health, more damage: longer kill times, more danger to the mech They spawn much faster - leaving less time to kill them, less time to travel between them, and less allowance for navigational mess ups. They no longer spawn in a pattern - can't predict the spawn so can't shave off travel time leaving less time to kill each one before the next spawn They use a different Map - This is probably one of the biggest hidden difficulty factors the two maps they could spawn on before were the Grineer Galleon and Gas City Tileset. What those tilesets have in common is a lot of straight tiles, very little clutter, and lots of space to manoeuvre with a mech. The new tileset they use is the Remastered Corpus ship which is: full of stairs, full of clutter, has many sharp turns, has a lot of tiny cluttered tiles, and has a lot of jutting geometry to get caught on. It makes navigating in the far less mobile mechs a headache and because of all the clutter it can be really difficult to find a "clear" enough space that the game will allow you to summon your mech in wasting even more time if you leave the mech and try to navigate via warframe and operator. Some of those things likely can't be changed. Veil missions are of a particular level so I doubt DE would want to change the starting level. Spawning them in a pattern ultimately does get boring and rather than engaging your mind you just zone out and follow the pattern ignoring everything else, probably not a good thing for longevity of the mission. We don't currently have any other railjack ship maps unless orphixes are added to the grineer side but grineer missions may not be set up yet to have the "mission in mission" system that corpus railjack does. So what does that leave us with? Scaling and Spawn rate. Honestly I think the scaling would be fine if they just didn't increase their spawn rate so fast. I think slowing the increase in spawn speed is probably the best bet, just giving more of the early orphixes a bit more time between them would make reaching rotation C a lot more attainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhkretor Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 20 minutes ago, Drasiel said: with additional corrosive damage ... I'm just going to put it out there that Orphixes reduce Corrosive damage by 75%... I don't know, you might want to try other stuff out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiel Posted January 3, 2022 Author Share Posted January 3, 2022 9 minutes ago, Uhkretor said: ... I'm just going to put it out there that Orphixes reduce Corrosive damage by 75%... I don't know, you might want to try other stuff out... Their stats certainly don't say that as long as they have armour which the ones I'm fighting do you should get a +75% bonus and their health type also doesn't reduce corrosive so where is the reduction to corrosive coming from? Edit: The wiki also states no resistance to corrosive and that it gives as a bonus as the stats show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhkretor Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 ... Oh? They changed it? hmm... Last time I checked the Codex info they resisted Corrosive... I guess I have a few tests to perform tomorrow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Rez090 Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 40 minutes ago, Drasiel said: I really liked Scarlet Spear Orphix Venom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiel Posted January 3, 2022 Author Share Posted January 3, 2022 2 minutes ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said: Orphix Venom ah right the other one with the giant eyeballs, I'll fix that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infirito Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 Yeah, I'm sure some people can deal with this stuff but for most players it's a group only mission if they want to finish it. I don't really care for the level / scaling, but the spawnrate is just stupid: I'm barely done with first and 2 more are already active, no way for me to solo it like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiel Posted January 3, 2022 Author Share Posted January 3, 2022 11 minutes ago, Infirito said: Yeah, I'm sure some people can deal with this stuff but for most players it's a group only mission if they want to finish it. I don't really care for the level / scaling, but the spawnrate is just stupid: I'm barely done with first and 2 more are already active, no way for me to solo it like this. Generally speaking I'm one of the players that can normally deal with this stuff. I've played predominantly solo for 8 years. From what friends have been telling me it's not much better in multiplayer you need a really good team with really good coordination or you run into the same problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 2 hours ago, Uhkretor said: ... Oh? They changed it? hmm... Last time I checked the Codex info they resisted Corrosive... I guess I have a few tests to perform tomorrow... The Codex is unreliable... When Thumpers first Got Added To The plains they had Ferrite Armor and Cloned Flesh... In other other words... They were 4 Legged Lancers 😐.... No wonder they felt so God Damn Tanky during the first few Days I farmed them... I was trying to kill them With Viral Damage after Stripping Their Armor.... 1 hour ago, Infirito said: Yeah, I'm sure some people can deal with this stuff but for most players it's a group only mission if they want to finish it. I don't really care for the level / scaling, but the spawnrate is just stupid: I'm barely done with first and 2 more are already active, no way for me to solo it like this. I only managed two Orphixes before Failing... And that's despite the fact that I was using the Fluctus to Destroy Resonatorz from behind Solid Walls.... I can't think of any other Mission Type where getting to Rotation A just to clear a Node is this Impossible... You get the impression DE think I'm trying to Break their Stupid Game mode.... All I wanted to do was Clear it and move on.... Even Steel Path Disruption isn't This Punishing 🤔 !!! 1 hour ago, Drasiel said: Generally speaking I'm one of the players that can normally deal with this stuff. I've played predominantly solo for 8 years. From what friends have been telling me it's not much better in multiplayer you need a really good team with really good coordination or you run into the same problem. Not Necessarily.... Yes you need Good Coordination but this Coordination doesn't necessarily have to be "Volantary"... You can Effectively just "Use" your Team Mates to make up for the things you can't do By yourself.... In my case I simply Joined up with a Team that just so Happened to be doing Erato (Veil) and so I figured this was the best opportunity to finally get this Damn Node out of the way....as soon as the Doors Opened we all went in as Normal.... The difference was when the first Round of Resonators Cropped Up... I didn't Join my Team Mates to Destroy the ones that were just not within my Reach... I Squatted Right infront of the Orphix... Ready to Pop The Son Of B$@#_ as soon as the Resonators were Down.... It's really no Different Chroma being Ready to Pop the Synova when the Eidolon Shields go down .... As you would expect we went after the the Next Orphix Together.... However halfway through Dealing with that one Another Orphix Spawns Somewhere Else... With The 2nd Set of Resonators Down on the 1st Orphix there's really no reason for all 4 Of Us to be There... My Team Mates will Take care of that Orphix will I run off and get Started on the Other Orphix.... By the The Time they catch up to me I'm already done with The Resonators and so all they have to do is Pop the Orphix itself... The basic idea is just Skipp Ahead and Hope your Team Mates Clean Up After you 😝 See ?... Involuntary Coordination 😎 !!! And as soon as the 3rd Orphix went down I went Straight For Extraction.... Maybe we were doing well.. maybe we are only two Orphixes from total Sentient Control.... I didn't know and Honestly Didn't Care... I was sick of this Stupid Game Mode and I just Wanted out.... That was 3 Months Ago.... I haven't Touched a Single Orphix Mission Since... 👀.... Maybe if my first Experience with this mission was in the event were it was manageable from what I hear then I might have liked it.... But no... I was thrown in to the Deep End in this Broken Version of It.... It Can Burn in Hell Just alike Eidolon Hunts for all I care.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitMeHarder Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 5 hours ago, Drasiel said: They no longer spawn in a pattern - can't predict the spawn so can't shave off travel time leaving less time to kill each one before the next spawn They use a different Map - This is probably one of the biggest hidden difficulty factors the two maps they could spawn on before were the Grineer Galleon and Gas City Tileset. In the past they only spawned in one of a few set patterns if you killed the previous Orphix before the next spawned. They just spawn too fast now to probably do this solo reliably. But it makes it very good for coop, where 3+ people can clear the mission way faster than the event. The new corpus ship was one of the 3 maps Orphix Venom could spawn on in the past. I did the Venus one for the Protovyre challenge for 40 minutes solo and did just fine (levels got plenty high). And I purposely didn't kill the Orphix until the sentient control was at 75%, that way I could get as many kills for the challenge as possible. Got to the C rot a few times at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiel Posted January 3, 2022 Author Share Posted January 3, 2022 10 hours ago, KitMeHarder said: In the past they only spawned in one of a few set patterns if you killed the previous Orphix before the next spawned. They just spawn too fast now to probably do this solo reliably. But it makes it very good for coop, where 3+ people can clear the mission way faster than the event. The new corpus ship was one of the 3 maps Orphix Venom could spawn on in the past. I did the Venus one for the Protovyre challenge for 40 minutes solo and did just fine (levels got plenty high). And I purposely didn't kill the Orphix until the sentient control was at 75%, that way I could get as many kills for the challenge as possible. Got to the C rot a few times at least. So do they actually still spawn in a pattern or just probably spawn in a pattern? If they do spawn in a pattern the fact they spawn so fast it breaks solo is still a problem. It should be possible to have different spawn speeds for solo vs group since that already happens with normal enemy spawns in endless missions. I never encountered the corpus ship when I played the event and I played it a lot I only encountered the Grineer Galleon and the Gas City Tileset. I'm glad I missed that headache. I'm not talking about the other orphix missions I'm talking explicitly about Veil Proxima's Orphix mission as the title and my post describes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faulcun Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 I wonder if it would make sense to have your railjack crew in the mission in the same way that syndicate missions have npc players on your side? Would that make a difference at all? I guess wouldnt be any different than using specters maybe. Might be enough of a distraction for the surrounding enemies to focus on the objective though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheelhouser Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 20 hours ago, Lutesque said: Maybe if my first Experience with this mission was in the event were it was manageable from what I hear then I might have liked it.... But no... I was thrown in to the Deep End in this Broken Version of It.... It Can Burn in Hell Just alike Eidolon Hunts for all I care.... The event was tuned way lower than the current RJ missions (and the didn't have the RJ prologue, either). They were on much nicer tilesets (the revamped Corpus ship tilesets is one of the least fun maps to play anything on in WF). The only real issues in the Orphix Venom event were bugs. Two in particular, and as it was released right before Christmas these did not get fixed quickly. One - if host migration happened your weapons lost all affinity (Bonewidow was released not long before, and Voidrig was only 4 months old when it came out, so a lot of players still hadn't really leveled their mechs and weapons). The other was if you were in extraction, but others weren't, you had the normal 1 minute timer. But if you took any damage that timer was reset. I played enough from the launch of the event until I got rank 3 of two arcanes. Then the bugs started taking a toll on my sanity (as well as I had played way too much of it to still be having fun). Took a week or so break from WF, and came back, and experienced both bugs in my first mission back (they had been gone for their holidays). From what I can tell from the patch notes, the affinity bugs weren't ironed out until January 12 (the event started on Dec 18 and ended on Jan 18 - this really cemented into me how buggy much of their content is and how often it feels half-done/tested when released). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitMeHarder Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 9 hours ago, Drasiel said: So do they actually still spawn in a pattern or just probably spawn in a pattern? If they do spawn in a pattern the fact they spawn so fast it breaks solo is still a problem. It should be possible to have different spawn speeds for solo vs group since that already happens with normal enemy spawns in endless missions. I never encountered the corpus ship when I played the event and I played it a lot I only encountered the Grineer Galleon and the Gas City Tileset. I'm glad I missed that headache. I'm not talking about the other orphix missions I'm talking explicitly about Veil Proxima's Orphix mission as the title and my post describes. There were like 3 different patterns in the event, so there's still probably patterns seeing as they still only have 3 spawn locations per mission. . I know, but that was the experience I already had, and I said 40 minutes in and not trying to go fast probably made it comparable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiel Posted January 4, 2022 Author Share Posted January 4, 2022 2 hours ago, KitMeHarder said: There were like 3 different patterns in the event, so there's still probably patterns seeing as they still only have 3 spawn locations per mission. . I know, but that was the experience I already had, and I said 40 minutes in and not trying to go fast probably made it comparable. I don't see how the experience on Venus which starts at level 21 is comparable to Veil which starts at 54. Of course you can last longer on the lower level mission that's a given, I doubt it would even be a problem until the orphix scaled up to level 50+. I'll tell you what though, tomorrow If I have the time I'll go run a venus mission and see how long it takes to fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiel Posted January 4, 2022 Author Share Posted January 4, 2022 @KitMeHarder Venus Orphix and Veil Proxima are completely different experiences, Despite orphixes being over level 150 by the end of the run they still spawn slower than on Veil. I completed 30 orphixes on venus even though my mech blew up 4 times. Veil Proxima needs it's difficulty reduced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted January 4, 2022 Share Posted January 4, 2022 2 hours ago, Drasiel said: @KitMeHarder Venus Orphix and Veil Proxima are completely different experiences, Despite orphixes being over level 150 by the end of the run they still spawn slower than on Veil. I completed 30 orphixes on venus even though my mech blew up 4 times. Veil Proxima needs it's difficulty reduced. Am I seeing this right ? You only got one Arcane for your Efforts ? 👀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiel Posted January 5, 2022 Author Share Posted January 5, 2022 3 hours ago, Lutesque said: Am I seeing this right ? You only got one Arcane for your Efforts ? 👀 I did 10 sets of 3 so that's 2 rotation C's should be 2 there maybe it's on the next page :think: or we have a separate issue on our hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted January 5, 2022 Share Posted January 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Drasiel said: I did 10 sets of 3 so that's 2 rotation C's should be 2 there maybe it's on the next page :think: or we have a separate issue on our hands. Wow that's extremely Underwhelming.... If DE ever adds more Arcanes IL just Buy them.... Because this... I honestly Can't Deal with it....😰 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiel Posted January 5, 2022 Author Share Posted January 5, 2022 3 hours ago, Lutesque said: Wow that's extremely Underwhelming.... If DE ever adds more Arcanes IL just Buy them.... Because this... I honestly Can't Deal with it....😰 yeah 40 minutes to get 2 arcane when Eidolons can be completed in under 10 mins per eidolon seems imbalanced. Theoretically you could get more by volume because orphix's are always available but I don't think anyone would actually want to do that outside of being physically unable to play eidolons (hello darkness my old friend). Both systems require specialized builds and in 50 minutes you walk away with up to 9 or more arcanes from eidolons with a specialized team and from orphixes you'd get 3 with a specialized team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitMeHarder Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 On 2022-01-04 at 2:47 PM, Drasiel said: Venus Orphix and Veil Proxima are completely different experiences, Despite orphixes being over level 150 by the end of the run they still spawn slower than on Veil. I completed 30 orphixes on venus even though my mech blew up 4 times. Veil Proxima needs it's difficulty reduced. I'm surprised there's that much of a difference (after it scaled up). I don't believe any other endurance mission behaves this way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiel Posted January 7, 2022 Author Share Posted January 7, 2022 14 hours ago, KitMeHarder said: I'm surprised there's that much of a difference (after it scaled up). I don't believe any other endurance mission behaves this way? No other endless mission I've played scales up this hard between planets. It also doesn't seem to be just spawn speed, sentient control even with 3 orphixes out raised far slower on Venus than it did on Veil Too. It actually makes me wonder how playable the pluto orphix mission is. Veil starts 20 levels above Pluto but level of the orphix seems to be less of an issue compared to spawn speed and sentient control growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutesque Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 14 hours ago, KitMeHarder said: I'm surprised there's that much of a difference (after it scaled up). I don't believe any other endurance mission behaves this way? Well.... Steel Path Survival is also Drastically Different from Regular Survival.... Despite the extra Enemies Life Support Drop Rates were severely Gimped.... What's funny is DE never Documented this Any where... 🤔.... Why ? It wouldn't be an issue if they just came up front and Said it... But for some Reason they decided to keep it a Secret... Also when it Launched... Arbitrations would have Reward Rotations twice as Slow as Regular Missions.... And I'm pretty sure They Did Something to Disruption Missions because I do not remember Demolysts being this Tanky....👀 And yeah.... That's all I got.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drasiel Posted January 7, 2022 Author Share Posted January 7, 2022 3 hours ago, Lutesque said: Well.... Steel Path Survival is also Drastically Different from Regular Survival.... Despite the extra Enemies Life Support Drop Rates were severely Gimped.... What's funny is DE never Documented this Any where... 🤔.... Why ? It wouldn't be an issue if they just came up front and Said it... But for some Reason they decided to keep it a Secret... Also when it Launched... Arbitrations would have Reward Rotations twice as Slow as Regular Missions.... And I'm pretty sure They Did Something to Disruption Missions because I do not remember Demolysts being this Tanky....👀 And yeah.... That's all I got.... steel path life support drop rates for survival are actually an interesting thing. Because the spawns are set as if there are 4 people present on the steel path it means that survivals treat the life support drops as if there was 4 people meaning solo you need to actually kill 4x the number of enemies you would to match the normal mission drop rate of life support in a non steel path mission. So it's not really a secret rather it's an unintended consequence of the 4 man multiplier that is standard to steel path. I'm so glad that arbitrations were changed, playing for 40 minutes to hit one rotation c was so gnarly. Demolysts I couldn't say as I don't particularly like disruption but at least as far as I've noticed they seemed about the same to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KitMeHarder Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 @Drasiel I went and tested the veil proxima solo and easily got to the C rotation, so idk what issue you'd be having. The Orphix were level 91 when I left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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