Accessibility: Trigger Mod/Toggle/Auto-Melee Please (aka, stop making me click like crazy)

[Binket_]

6 hours ago, Salenstormwing said:

If a player can use it so they can get some use out of weapons they can't physically use otherwise without risking pain... then let the PLAYER decide what they want to do, and how best for them to enjoy the game the way they want to play.

There's a certain problem with that:

The Developers of ANYTHING- not even just games- simply cannot account for every possible outcome. They are not omniscient.
They can work towards fixing such issues, of course... but they can't do everything. Even with an infinite amount of time, resources and knowledge.

If someone is blind, how do you make an accessibility function for that? How CAN you make an accessibility function for that?
Warframe is a shooter with high levels of parkour and a vast roster of weapons. I hate to say it, but not everyone can play it... no matter how much you try.

That doesn't mean [XYZ] person isn't capable of playing games of that genre, but those kinds of games must be intrinsically built FOR that.
I remember a game- though the name escapes me- where it was designed so that the player bounces a projectile along terrain in a dark room to navigate it.
It was built in a way that people can play regardless of sight.

To do something like that in Warframe would be nothing short of a titanic achievement. Mainly due to the sheer magnitude of how much must be changed.

 

I understand that people would LIKE accessibility functions.
... but there does come the cost of "game integrity" as a result and it's something many game developers have to account for.
Sometimes, you simply have to say "We cannot. If we did, it would break the game" not out of malice or deceit, but simply acceptance that you cannot/

In that sense, it's up to the player to determine if it's worth it or not. I too wish many could play Warframe freely, but it's a balancing act like any other.

2 hours ago, Drasiel said:

Could you explain this further? What do you mean by "making them count"?

Mainly accuracy, positioning and acknowledgement of ammo/magazine.

Semi-Auto weapons such as Tonkor or Rubico Prime tend to trade off "bullet vomit" you'd see on something like Phenmor (which is Full-Auto) for a condensed shot.
 Be it an powerful AoE that has Magazine Restrictions, reloading after every shot...
... or a Sniper Rifle which rewards hitting consecutive shots.

If you made Tonkor full-auto, it'd revolve more around getting some form of Ammo Efficiency maxed out so you can spam it.
It loses that subtle hint of accuracy and instead becomes something like Burston where you just vomit bullets and they happen to hit targets easier.

If you made Rubico Prime full-auto, it'd completely lose the purpose of it's Sniper Combo.
As most players will prefer simply propping up a target with Blood Altar and farming combo that way by emptying rounds into it.

There's also positioning. Semi-Auto weapons tend to lean more into a playstyle where you guns things down more methodically.

 

All of these CAN be done with Full-Auto weapons, but it's because they're Semi-Auto is why we remember them for such. Their limitations automatically lead into such.
If you remove that? It's simply the stock-standard barbarism you see all the time now. Where it's "no thoughts, head empty" for the entire game.
^{And personally? I think having no thoughts at all may as well equate someone to the undead. What's to separate people who don't think about anything from say... a rabid animal? Not much, both act on raw instinct.}

[Salenstormwing]

7 hours ago, Binket_ said:

The Developers of ANYTHING- not even just games- simply cannot account for every possible outcome. They are not omniscient.
They can work towards fixing such issues, of course... but they can't do everything. Even with an infinite amount of time, resources and knowledge.

Hello.

Game development has been something that has been worked on since before the 1980s, when the home video game revolution truly became a force. Because of this, game development companies have created practices called BEST PRACTICES to help developers prioritize how they CAN help issues before they become an issue for the players.

Are all things accounted for? No, but we're talking about things the devs CAN do easily to help players. The Xbox Accessibility Guideline for INPUT states several Best Practices that devs can do to help with such things.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/gaming/accessibility/xbox-accessibility-guidelines/107

There are other guidelines that Microsoft for other things as well when it comes to color blindness, visual contrast, haptic feedback, and loads of others. These aren't nebulous "How can DE ever expect to cater to every single contingency?" as much as "How can DE implement Best Practices in video game development so most individuals have no issues with playing their game?"

They're guidelines on how to make the game better for both the player and the dev by saying "Here's things you should be thinking about".

 

And much like how Auto-Melee was implemented, I'm sure DE could do the same with Auto-Trigger so certain weapons would retain their normal use despite the auto-trigger change, such as how certain melee weapons like Glaives do. Implementing an option for players is the important thing though.

Also, I can't really go into all the reasons "Semi-Auto weapons are more meticulous for use and promote that sort of play" when I've seen an Akmagnus be able to be modded for a Rate of Fire of 10 back in the day. If mods allow weapons to change, the semi-auto on said weapons just promote faster clicking for players hunting those DPS numbers, which is why Trigger Macros exist. Nothing about the trigger type is promoting anything more than players either furiously clicking or finding some way to automate the process. If the guns were balanced around taking your time and picking your shot, that'd be GREAT. Slow the guns down even more. But with mods, the RoF can be faster than humanly possible. For what reason are they Semi then, if only to be an artificial limit on a player who'd be better served by having the option to select if his guns are Auto-Trigger or not?

 

I'm not going to stop suggesting SOMETHING just because i can't help EVERYONE. I can make my suggestion heard. I can point out how game studios have actual written guidelines on how to help players that's taken 40+ years of game development and boiled it down to "Here's all the stuff that REALLY can help you and your players". If you make a car company today, you can't just say "I didn't know about the guidelines for seatbelts and airbags, how was I supposed to know about that stuff?"

 

So yeah, please check out Microsoft Xbox's Game Development Documentation. It's quite comprehensive on a lot of best practices for making your own video game: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/gaming/

[Harutomata]

14 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Please, do not ever suggest a mod to fix an accessibility issue. Especially because the devs might actually take that approach if they think people would be okay with it.

This should be a setting. Full stop. People should not have to sacrifice a mod slot for a feature that allows them to use weapons they otherwise wouldn't be able to due to health problems. It should've been added along with auto-mele. Hell it should've been added ages before auto-mele.

Agreed. It's like suggesting an exilus warframe mod for colorblind accessibility. It shouldn't even need an explanation why it wouldn't be okay.

For the people who are against this accessibility option, if people getting to use specific weapons without their CTS or arthritis causing them physical pain bothers you, I don't know what to tell you.

[Tiltskillet]

15 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Please, do not ever suggest a mod to fix an accessibility issue. Especially because the devs might actually take that approach if they think people would be okay with it.

This should be a setting. Full stop. People should not have to sacrifice a mod slot for a feature that allows them to use weapons they otherwise wouldn't be able to due to health problems. It should've been added along with auto-mele. Hell it should've been added ages before auto-mele.

If you're talking about the OP, I think the author has progressed from asking for a mod solution to advocating for a setting.   As all sensible people should!  :P  Although the title still suggests a mod solution as one of the possibilities, so maybe I'm wrong about their desires. 

@Salenstormwing what's your current stance?  Would an autofire exilus slot be delightful news, better than nothing, or a serious disappointment?

 

[Salenstormwing]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

@Salenstormwing what's your current stance?  Would an autofire exilus slot be delightful news, better than nothing, or a serious disappointment?

It'd be BETTER THAN NOTHING, but that doesn't mean it doesn't also qualify as SERIOUS DISAPPOINTMENT as well.

I'm pro-DE DOES STUFF. That's why I was glad they did SOMETHING by adjusting some semi-auto pistols to have lower RoF with higher damage to compensate. But I don't think they went far enough, and frankly, I want them to do MORE.

Am I open to alternatives? Yes. But in the end I want the game to be less painful to play for both myself and future gamers. How we get there isn't as important as WE GET THERE. That's why I don't feel obligated to freeze in place that "this doesn't fix everyone's issues for every little thing ever". I refuse to make PERFECT the enemy of GOOD ENOUGH.

[Binket_]

7 hours ago, Salenstormwing said:

Also, I can't really go into all the reasons "Semi-Auto weapons are more meticulous for use and promote that sort of play" when I've seen an Akmagnus be able to be modded for a Rate of Fire of 10 back in the day.

Read a lot of that, but this part right here?

Guns like Vasto, Akjagara, Magnus-- and I'm sure plenty more have very little reason being "Semi-Auto".
These are weapons that are more of a relic of time rather than having a niche.

On one hand? Making them full-auto is the obvious fool-proof choice, sure.
On the other... there's also things like Incarnons to take into account.
I feel Lato or Lex should (IDEALLY this is a whole other can of worms) remain Semi-Auto, but get things that bring them up to a level where's warranted,

Though, realistically? I can see the former happening more often.

 

The core itself was that such weapons went unchecked for such a long time, allowing this issue to even fester in the first place.
DE is known for letting large portions of their game kinda just... rot.

4 minutes ago, Salenstormwing said:

It'd be BETTER THAN NOTHING

Though, I can't agree there.

I'd rather DE do it right the first time and stop all those half-jobs.
It's a large source for their problems as is, after all.
Not saying it has to be perfect the first time, but band-aids can only solve so much.

That being said, I don't mind accessibility functions-- but there's a LOT of things to account for in a game.
And unfortunately, some things do end up stomping on the toes of others. Even if it's unintentional.

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, Salenstormwing said:

It'd be BETTER THAN NOTHING, but that doesn't mean it doesn't also qualify as SERIOUS DISAPPOINTMENT as well.

Sorry, you have to choose one. :P

[Salenstormwing]

16 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Sorry, you have to choose one. :P

I'd rather they just make it an Accessibility option. Because it should be. Even Xbox says as much. And I'm going to keep promoting it to become an option that way.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Salenstormwing
Because I typed more.

[Salenstormwing]

Update happened yesterday. Let's do a look at all the accessibility changes that were part of it!

• Added a “Preview Visual Effects Intensity” toggle in the Accessibility options to enable/disable the pop-up preview that appears when making changes to the Visual Effects Intensity slider. This is always disabled by default and must be toggled on each time you want to check how change will apply. 

...That's it?

Yeah, so nothing good to mention here on the Give Players Less Painful Control Schemes via Accessibility side of things. At least the Grimore (spell-book secondary) is auto trigger at least. So yeah. A weapon not horrible to use for the player.

[Salenstormwing]

Happy New Year.

Almost 4 months away from this thread turning 2 years old. Melee has auto; accessibility has been getting some focus with visual options; still no auto-trigger for semi-auto weapons (especially ones with high RoF).

Melee should have the option to choose to use Auto-Melee though, in the Accessibility option, but it doesn't currently happen. Hopefully we'll see some new changes in stuff in the new year.

[AlbinEros]

I'm simply here to add another seconding to this sentiment.

There's a bunch of powerful and fun weapons I rarely use because I know that if I do for a prolonged period my hand will start to hurt within a few days.

The hold for melee change made me use melee more, and use a wider variety of weapons and mods. The same could be the case for primaries and secondaries, and that would be wonderful.

There's also a monetary incentive for DE, all the weapons I know I won't really use are weapons where I wont invest in their builds. That means forma and catalysts I wont use, and therefore platinum I wont spend.

[Pakaku]

Still makes no sense that melee is automatic without a toggle, despite the fact that "tap/hold" toggles exist for QTEs. And still makes even less sense that guns can't just be automatic, despite melee and QTEs apparently getting special treatment. It's just arbitrary inconsistency.

[Salenstormwing]

It's February, and I didn't see the shadow of Auto-Trigger during the last Dev Stream. That means 6 more Prime Times before Spring.

 

But anyways, I figured I'd bring up something, because I know around here it's been said "Oh, DE won't ban you for using macros". That's not 100% true. What they actually said is here:

...there are other factors involved in receive a ban due to the use of AutoHotKey.exe, including a review of multiple stats on the account in question.  Should you receive a ban that you feel is not warranted, please submit a support ticket and we’ll be sure to review the circumstances regarding your ban as soon as possible.

 

So, you might have a macro that can work on your mouse to help you shoot quickly, but it's okay... unless DE decides it's not okay.

You know what's easier? Just giving players the option to user Auto-Trigger for both Melee and Ranged weapons. Give players a switch under accessibility. Not only will players NOT be forced to use an outside program that might or might not get them banned, but it helps people with accessibility requirements.

Plus, it's not like DE hasn't banned a content creator for doing this very thing recently, and not just because he managed to go 95 hours in an Endurance Steel Run.

Just asking for DE to fix this issue so it's not an issue so they can make a nice new PSA about how macros are actually bad or something. Because right now, it's a coin flip. And I can't tell others what to do till DE gives some clarity to the whole deal. Yes, maybe I could make a macro to help me play the game without pain, but then I'm subjecting myself to possible bans because DE said "we'll review the ban if you feel it's not warranted". That isn't exactly making me go "Why sure, let me get those macros loaded up!"

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

8 hours ago, Salenstormwing said:

It's February, and I didn't see the shadow of Auto-Trigger during the last Dev Stream. That means 6 more Prime Times before Spring.

 

But anyways, I figured I'd bring up something, because I know around here it's been said "Oh, DE won't ban you for using macros". That's not 100% true. What they actually said is here:

...there are other factors involved in receive a ban due to the use of AutoHotKey.exe, including a review of multiple stats on the account in question.  Should you receive a ban that you feel is not warranted, please submit a support ticket and we’ll be sure to review the circumstances regarding your ban as soon as possible.

 

So, you might have a macro that can work on your mouse to help you shoot quickly, but it's okay... unless DE decides it's not okay.

You know what's easier? Just giving players the option to user Auto-Trigger for both Melee and Ranged weapons. Give players a switch under accessibility. Not only will players NOT be forced to use an outside program that might or might not get them banned, but it helps people with accessibility requirements.

Plus, it's not like DE hasn't banned a content creator for doing this very thing recently, and not just because he managed to go 95 hours in an Endurance Steel Run.

Just asking for DE to fix this issue so it's not an issue so they can make a nice new PSA about how macros are actually bad or something. Because right now, it's a coin flip. And I can't tell others what to do till DE gives some clarity to the whole deal. Yes, maybe I could make a macro to help me play the game without pain, but then I'm subjecting myself to possible bans because DE said "we'll review the ban if you feel it's not warranted". That isn't exactly making me go "Why sure, let me get those macros loaded up!"

And how exactly is DE or anyone going to detect a macro that rapid fires a semi-automatic weapon? arealme.com stated they measured an average of 6.51 CPS in 2019. Does that mean if I mod the Epitaph for a fire rate of 7, I will be flagged for reaching 7 CPS with 100% consistency? Will the game monitor my CPS even if the weapon cannot fire more than 7 times per second (say I set a macro to click 20 times per second)? Will it measure the latency between clicks to check for inhuman consistency? We are already able to rebind gun fire to the scroll wheel, meaning anyone can fire faster than they can click...and it's allowed. A macro that fires 20 times a second when a single button is held down won't be flagged either. The macro sends repeated button presses just like rebinding fire to a 96 step mouse wheel (my Razer Naga V2 for instance). Nobody is being banned for this.

Edited February 8 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[Salenstormwing]

15 hours ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

And how exactly is DE or anyone going to detect a macro that rapid fires a semi-automatic weapon? arealme.com stated they measured an average of 6.51 CPS in 2019. Does that mean if I mod the Epitaph for a fire rate of 7, I will be flagged for reaching 7 CPS with 100% consistency? Will the game monitor my CPS even if the weapon cannot fire more than 7 times per second (say I set a macro to click 20 times per second)? Will it measure the latency between clicks to check for inhuman consistency? We are already able to rebind gun fire to the scroll wheel, meaning anyone can fire faster than they can click...and it's allowed. A macro that fires 20 times a second when a single button is held down won't be flagged either. The macro sends repeated button presses just like rebinding fire to a 96 step mouse wheel (my Razer Naga V2 for instance). Nobody is being banned for this.

Except that's exactly what DE told Baker TV that was the reason behind his ban from the game.

Either way, just because it MIGHT not be punishable by DE, hell, even if the issue was 100% not punishable by DE, the fact that there is no support for these sorts of modifications on console is going to leave out a large portion of the Warframe populous from being able to use semi-auto weapons comfortably in an accessibility way.

DE has shown they can make these sorts of changes as they did with Auto-Melee. There's no reason they can't do the same for Auto-Trigger. DE does that, and no one risks being banned because they would never have a need to use an external program and/or macro.

In the end, I'd rather avoid a possible landmine than to step on said space a few times to find out if it's actually a landmine.

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

5 hours ago, Salenstormwing said:

Except that's exactly what DE told Baker TV that was the reason behind his ban from the game.

Either way, just because it MIGHT not be punishable by DE, hell, even if the issue was 100% not punishable by DE, the fact that there is no support for these sorts of modifications on console is going to leave out a large portion of the Warframe populous from being able to use semi-auto weapons comfortably in an accessibility way.

DE has shown they can make these sorts of changes as they did with Auto-Melee. There's no reason they can't do the same for Auto-Trigger. DE does that, and no one risks being banned because they would never have a need to use an external program and/or macro.

In the end, I'd rather avoid a possible landmine than to step on said space a few times to find out if it's actually a landmine.

I agree that an auto-shoot option should be added similarly to how they implemented auto-melee.

I didn't see anything in that video that suggested that he was banned for using macros. He questioned whether or not his use of macros was cause of his ban, which DE did not confirm and then they followed up with stating he was detected idling for long periods of time and using automation for AFKing. We don't know what their response would have been if the beginning of the support conversation hadn't started with him stating that he was using macros, but admitting to using macros shouldn't be cause for rejecting an appeal either. I can guarantee you that if he had rebinded left mouse click to this scroll wheel, he would've been banned all the same. Even if he used a macro to execute key presses in randomized intervals to not be detected by AI anti-cheat (which DE probably isn't using), he still would have been banned. You could probably use these macros without ever being banned as long as you didn't stay in a mission for 95 hours. The issue is not this macro, but something else.

 

Edited February 8 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[ThePredicament]

Think the best middle ground solution of is: make semis automatic but only to a point where they don't supersede similar tiered automatics while also allowing for "tap as fast as you can" trigger pulls.

While this limits auto-shot players from full dps potential, that shouldn't be the goal in the first place. It's about making the weapon both comfortable and functional, limiting the fire rate would prevent crazy muzzle climb and recoil, things that would invalidate an auto-shot option by requiring someone to release and press again for accuracy.

This also has the added benefit of preventing things like Vasto's fire rate change, so it wouldn't have lost its overall "feel" leaving the option open for newer weapons to have the same behavior AND the ability for everyone to use the "fire as fast as you can tap" capability of some of those weapons. This also makes it easier to balance the current and future lineup of weapons because it doesn't automatically make semis automatic spray and pray types, so similar tiered automatics still have their own niche and the effectiveness of auto-shooting will be in line with those that have the option turned off and firing at a regular rate. No mods needed, no advantages, no real disadvantages.

[Salenstormwing]

It's almost Easter time. No sign of auto-trigger options coming. Have fun into the random auto-melee getting stuck where I'll keep melee'ing constantly, till I do something to break out of the combo like using a power or swapping to Operator or something. Not sure which exactly. Just know it happens once in a while. And that makes me wonder if that's why we haven't seen any Auto-Trigger discussed, if the Auto-Melee is still being at issue.

Speaking of Auto-Melee, the Pistol+Glaive combo really doesn't seem very fun to use like it used to be, with the new Auto-melee. Not sure why, but maybe it has more to do with not being able to use heavy attacks well when you wield pistol+glaive. I don't know. Something feels off, and the damage lackluster.

 

So yeah, sorry for being away, but I've mostly been waiting for some fixes to come to Warframe, and I just have been playing less in general. I think last week I had maybe 5 or 6 total missions completed. Eh, anyways, I'm still here. Waiting.

[Salenstormwing]

Quote

 

Auto-Melee Fixes

• Fixed getting locked auto-meleeing (even without input) after interacting with items and other actions while melee attacking. Notably: 
  • Interacting with Golden Hand Tributes
  • Selecting Duviri Decree
  • Entering Sanctuary Onslaught portal
  • Selecting Endless Void Fissure reward
  • Opening Gear Wheel
  • Using Transference
  • Interacting with turrets in Railjack
    • Known issue: We are aware that this issue can occur from the Stay/Leave screen in the Circuit. 
• Fixed Auto-Meleeing in a certain location in the “Awaken the Sleeper” stage of the Whispers in the Walls Quest causing an interaction to be skipped. 
  • Melee will now be disabled when in this area to prevent key moments from being skipped.
• Fixed getting locked auto-meleeing after holding the ability menu open and auto-meleeing simultaneously while using a controller. 
• Fixed getting locked auto-meeling after opening the pause menu/chat window while holding the Melee attack button. 
• Fixed Auto-melee persisting after exiting a Railjack turret / pilot seat if melee input was held upon entering it. 

 

Lots of Auto-Melee fixes in Dante's update. Still no Auto-Trigger options yet. Hope everyone has a good Easter, and don't forget to get your bunny ears accessories in a few days.

[Drasiel]

Did you see the Dev Shorts today on twitch? While it's not much, Steve dropped there have been talks about some kind of improvement for semi-autos that people have been asking about for a long time.  Could perhaps it be the first inklings of an auto mode?

[Tiltskillet]

24 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

Did you see the Dev Shorts today on twitch? While it's not much, Steve dropped there have been talks about some kind of improvement for semi-autos that people have been asking about for a long time.  Could perhaps it be the first inklings of an auto mode?

Yeah, Reb seemed...cautious.  My impression was this wasn't on the agenda for Friday before Steve opened his mouth, lol.

 

[Salenstormwing]

On 2024-04-24 at 10:19 PM, Tiltskillet said:

Yeah, Reb seemed...cautious.  My impression was this wasn't on the agenda for Friday before Steve opened his mouth, lol.

 

I might have to check the Dev Short out, but it's nice to hear Steve at least is hearing about this subject from others. Hopefully we'll see it before this thread reaches 3 years of age.

[Tiltskillet]

11 minutes ago, Salenstormwing said:

I might have to check the Dev Short out, but it's nice to hear Steve at least is hearing about this subject from others. Hopefully we'll see it before this thread reaches 3 years of age.

It sure looked like Reb felt dragged into bringing it up during the stream today, so keep an eye out for that.

[Salenstormwing]

18 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

It sure looked like Reb felt dragged into bringing it up during the stream today, so keep an eye out for that.

Link to the time where Steve brings it up and Reb is like "Noooooo!" Around 10;20ish for folks playing at home.

https://www.youtube.com/live/6mJYwL0tIeQ?si=3rQczNdj4xmx_Rxh&t=620

At the very least, it sounds like Pablo is doing some QoL studying about Semi-Auto ingame. But yes, it sounds like Steve just forced Reb to make a comment about it on today's Dev Stream.

[Salenstormwing]

YAY!

We're getting both the Accessibility Option as well as a Mod to make guns NOT be able to use fire rate mods but will make guns much "punchier" (Pablo's words). And you can use both if you absolutely want them to be. And it's coming out during Jade Shadow update.