AoE Changes - subtle but impactful? [post Devstream discussion]

[0_The_F00l]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)Mister_Sicky said:

Nah I don't need a reason to quit or stay.  It's just mind numbing to run a defense,rescue, mobile defense or any of the exact same missions with just a change of scenery.

Think about everything even the nightwave is boring. Go mine 6 rare gems or go capture 6 animals. Come on man it's a shooters game not a fishing trip or mining expedition.

I don't play much anymore and when I do it's just to help clan mates or get whatever trinket they peddle out.

I play Warzone now and it changes constantly. Every day there's new missions or challenges with more guns than imaginable.  Play for kills or go for the win depending on who you're running with but at least I feel like I'm earning something every match.  Weapon XP or rank XP, blueprints or operator stuff.

 

Did you read what you wrote?

It's exactky what I meant , you are no longer enjoying warframe as a whole , the recent plans just gives you a reason to vent , you don't really care about the changes by the looks of it.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb (PSN)slightconfuzzled:

 

It does matter. Since I am going to take your answer, and then play Steel Path Zariman with it myself later today. With those weapons, school etc try to match your answer as close as possible. 

Not being a beginner isn't so much an issue. In another thread I talk about how I didn't find Nyx very strong. I didn't actually use Nyx at all, until after I was MR30. Always possible to learn new tricks and techniques that can help. I did, and now I think Nyx is powerful and she went from my least played Warframe, to one of my medium played.

Personally I don't shield gate with Gyre, I am too lazy to track/time it, don't use Vaz. I do use Rolling Guard. Rolling is simple enough for me, and good for cleanse. 

When I build Gyre, I think I go for range primarily. To enable her CC, soften up enemies to kill. I wouldn't build her like Inaros myself, since I think she stays alive better by using line of sight, cover, and jumping a lot. Many of her abilities CC, which means you can jump, avoid enemies, use power, group enemies closer, use your gun to kill them, and then continue process. Inaros can just run at enemies like a tank. I don't think you should do that with Gyre. 

What weapons do you consider better than Bubonico? 

there is so much playable. The question is how. and I don't care about that.
Also, everyone has their own taste. I have no problem with that of course.

and i can play with any warframe without mods on sp (no joke). will it be fun for me? certainly not...

I would rephrase your question: what would I like better than bubonico?
kuva ogris for sure. good reload, ut skin and sounds. It's not the best weapon, but I like it.

[0_The_F00l]

15 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

there is so much playable. The question is how. and I don't care about that.
Also, everyone has their own taste. I have no problem with that of course.

and i can play with any warframe without mods on sp (no joke). will it be fun for me? certainly not...

I would rephrase your question: what would I like better than bubonico?
kuva ogris for sure. good reload, ut skin and sounds. It's not the best weapon, but I like it.

So ... You know that it's actually possible , you just don't want to do it ?

What are you even complaining about then? Just bloating discussions with inane ramblings from where I am standing , just spam to derail topics from my point of view.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

1 minute ago, Venus-Venera said:

there is so much playable. The question is how. and I don't care about that.
Also, everyone has their own taste. I have no problem with that of course.

and i can play with any warframe without mods on sp (no joke). will it be fun for me? certainly not...

I would rephrase your question: what would I like better than bubonico?
kuva ogris for sure. good reload, ut skin and sounds. It's not the best weapon, but I like it.

 

You quoted me, and said "even with pimped kuva zarr i can't play gyre on sp vs ranged. and if aoe waepons gets completely ruined, what should i do here?" 

So I was going to answer your question and give you solutions/show you how. 

Taste and ability are two different ideas. I can play Caliban in Steel Path... but I don't like to play Caliban in Steel Path. Its like "want" and "can't" too. I can play Yareli for two hours in a Survival... but I don't want to play Yareli for two hours in a row. 

In that case you are reframing your original statement too. "bubonico is a rather average weapon" is not the same as "I personally like these other weapons better than it". When you say that the Bubonico is an average weapon, you are making a claim about it. You also make it the reference to Phantasma being inferior. 

These weapons can do Steel Path and are great for it. If you are making the claim that you personally don't like it... sure. Thats very different from the claim they can't do it though or struggle. With the latter, it may not be the weapon that struggles, but your build or play style. Which can be compared and contrasted to other peoples builds and play styles. If you don't like it but can, is different from, I can, but don't like it.

Which also determines and informs the conversations and points you make in regards to others experiences. 

 

[Venus-Venera]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb (PSN)slightconfuzzled:

You quoted me, and said "even with pimped kuva zarr i can't play gyre on sp vs ranged. and if aoe waepons gets completely ruined, what should i do here?" 

So I was going to answer your question and give you solutions/show you how.

I don't need tips...
playing like a clown from an insane asylum and playing a pvE game after work with beer on the table are EXTREMELY different things...

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

1 minute ago, Venus-Venera said:

I don't need tips...
playing like a clown from an insane asylum and playing a pvE game after work with beer on the table are EXTREMELY different things...

 

Then perhaps you shouldn't quote people and ask them what you should do? If you say can't do something? Someone will want to help you. Or if you were being rhetorical, then be careful, because... It would be incredibly easy for many of us players to post videos of us playing Steel Path with Gyre and having no issues at all. Hard evidence.

This is why I asked for your build, and what weapons you tried. Since, for all I know, you haven't tried at all. You would rather just make claims and pretend those claims support your opinion. Which again, can be easily discredited. We are not talking about hypothetical science here. I can go turn on Warframe right now, and see a variety of guns do Steel Path. Some of us literally do that every other day or day.

By asking you more specifics, you can either answer and be sincere "I tried using a tank Gyre build with lots of health, I tried using a Tenora Prime, and Epitaph, and a Redeemer Prime, I used Zenurik. I used Arcane Guardian and Arcane, and Helios", then I can go and try use the same build, see what issues you might have, and make recommendations that might allow you to do better. By back tracking and refusing to give such information, it makes it just seem like you aren't sincere and just want to troll and bait people, because you are upset and annoyed at change, and will start throwing out random, false arguments and points to try and appease yourself. 

Look at your latest example? You liken people who can do Steel Path with non AOE as clowns from an insane asylum? When you resort to such rhetoric, it doesn't make people think..."that guy is right!" it usually makes people think "that guy seems upset to start resorting to such generalisations. Guess they don't have any actual arguments to support their view?!?". 

If you don't like doing Steel Path with weapons like Bubonico or Phantasma, that is totally fine and legit. Just be aware that plenty of people are fine with them, many casually, after work, with a beer (or water). Also, maybe don't pretend to know what actual human DE employees do or don't do either, as far as claims they don't play the game or hard difficulties. If its just your personal preference. 

 

 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

37 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

So ... You know that it's actually possible , you just don't want to do it ?

What are you even complaining about then? Just bloating discussions with inane ramblings from where I am standing , just spam to derail topics from my point of view.

 

I think they might just be upset with the changes and are trying to throw out random rhetoric and random arguments to justify how they feel. Without really realising that people can actually demonstrate they are false, by just playing the game. Except a lot of people are uncomfortable with the idea of others believing they are upset or feeling, so they try to frame their points around objective criteria and facts. So everything is combative and an argument waiting to happen (which imo is really tiring and unnecessary). As opposed to just conversation and discussion, like many of us forum users do with each other. 

Like if they are more casual player that wants to relax, and do Steel Path, and they prefer AOE, and dislike non AOE (which is fair and valid)... then doing Steel Path with Gyre and Phantasma "is impossible. Can't do it. Only insane clown fish people with ten hands can do it, DE developers can't do it, they don't even play the game. Its not that I might be lacking with my modding, or builds or play style, or am just upset my preferred play style is nerfed slightly... I never get upset, feeling upset is weak and emotional. Only woman and cats are weak and emotional."

If I can't do Steel Path the way I want to, no one can, and if they can, they are liars and hackers or freaky fish clown people from an asylum, who probably hack and cheat all the same. In my opinion. In case someone records a video disapproving my allegations... its just my opinion, and play style. We all plat different. Also DE just made up statistics. Thats the truth though, but also in my opinion. 

 

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

I think they might just be upset with the changes and are trying to throw out random rhetoric and random arguments to justify how they feel. Without really realising that people can actually demonstrate they are false, by just playing the game. Except a lot of people are uncomfortable with the idea of others believing they are upset or feeling, so they try to frame their points around objective criteria and facts. So everything is combative and an argument waiting to happen (which imo is really tiring and unnecessary). As opposed to just conversation and discussion, like many of us forum users do with each other. 

Like if they are more casual player that wants to relax, and do Steel Path, and they prefer AOE, and dislike non AOE (which is fair and valid)... then doing Steel Path with Gyre and Phantasma "is impossible. Can't do it. Only insane clown fish people with ten hands can do it, DE developers can't do it, they don't even play the game. Its not that I might be lacking with my modding, or builds or play style, or am just upset my preferred play style is nerfed slightly... I never get upset, feeling upset is weak and emotional. Only woman and cats are weak and emotional."

If I can't do Steel Path the way I want to, no one can, and if they can, they are liars and hackers or freaky fish clown people from an asylum, who probably hack and cheat all the same. In my opinion. In case someone records a video disapproving my allegations... its just my opinion, and play style. We all plat different. Also DE just made up statistics. Thats the truth though, but also in my opinion. 

 

Yeah , that has been my observation for some of these "arguments" as well. 

Impotent rage for change in a nutshell.

Pretty good dissemination of this behaviour.

[Dunkelheit]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (PSN)slightconfuzzled:

 

You quoted me, and said "even with pimped kuva zarr i can't play gyre on sp vs ranged. and if aoe waepons gets completely ruined, what should i do here?" 

So I was going to answer your question and give you solutions/show you how. 

Taste and ability are two different ideas. I can play Caliban in Steel Path... but I don't like to play Caliban in Steel Path. Its like "want" and "can't" too. I can play Yareli for two hours in a Survival... but I don't want to play Yareli for two hours in a row. 

In that case you are reframing your original statement too. "bubonico is a rather average weapon" is not the same as "I personally like these other weapons better than it". When you say that the Bubonico is an average weapon, you are making a claim about it. You also make it the reference to Phantasma being inferior. 

These weapons can do Steel Path and are great for it. If you are making the claim that you personally don't like it... sure. Thats very different from the claim they can't do it though or struggle. With the latter, it may not be the weapon that struggles, but your build or play style. Which can be compared and contrasted to other peoples builds and play styles. If you don't like it but can, is different from, I can, but don't like it.

Which also determines and informs the conversations and points you make in regards to others experiences. 

 

Mate, I appreciate what you are trying to do, but this guy you are talking to is not interested in a discussion or arguments or help. He wants to be right and wants to get it his way or no way. I play Gyre everyday in Steel Path and he is great against Corpus.

We had the same happening before the melee "nerf". Everyone was going apeS#&$ and now it is absolutely acceptable and brought melee in line with other weaponry.

[_LotusPrime_]

To be fair, melee nerf was huge and was only counter balanced by the enemy nerfs as well,  we had a 2 month period where you would have only multiplicative damage scaling (not exponential like the old) against enemies that had exponential ehp @Dunkelheit

 

@0_The_F00l yes the game is still very easy or mid Hard at Best and thats not a bad thing, but the thing is it is this way because DE deservedly receives backlash on each time they try to change System to 'try' to make this game another bullet sponge fest with no mevhanical intricancies of souls-esq

I dont know if the person youre replying to maybe has some things to learn although thats not really a point considering now everyones can access wf knowledge and builds and how to do damage across the board, well which wasnt the case before 4 or so years with vets hiding their strats from public and whatnot, reminder that pretty much good hearted wf in game community is a lot better now towards newer players who isnt in their tightest inner friend circle to show their niche ways. 

 

 

[_LotusPrime_]

Is warframe a cookie clicker, maybe right now. 

 

Should it change? The real question is change towards what exactly. 

 

Lets say warframe is a cookie clicker, i would say its not JUST that, you get to feel power and mobility you cant see anywhere else on other 3d games. And i dont think thats bad really, 

 

And not only that but we are at a point where even if DE would try to make this game very hunched and s controlled combat oriented, it wouldnt stick with the community and for example how do you think DE can complete with input reflex based competitive games if they go that route? 

 

Maybe if this game was new but we are past that, also probably they wanna achieve that sort of thing with their new mmo project 

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

To be fair, melee nerf was huge and was only counter balanced by the enemy nerfs as well,  we had a 2 month period where you would have only multiplicative damage scaling (not exponential like the old) against enemies that had exponential ehp @Dunkelheit

 

@0_The_F00l yes the game is still very easy or mid Hard at Best and thats not a bad thing, but the thing is it is this way because DE deservedly receives backlash on each time they try to change System to 'try' to make this game another bullet sponge fest with no mevhanical intricancies of souls-esq

I dont know if the person youre replying to maybe has some things to learn although thats not really a point considering now everyones can access wf knowledge and builds and how to do damage across the board, well which wasnt the case before 4 or so years with vets hiding their strats from public and whatnot, reminder that pretty much good hearted wf in game community is a lot better now towards newer players who isnt in their tightest inner friend circle to show their niche ways. 

I am sorry , i am not very clear on what you are saying or which person you are referring cause i have a lot of comments in this thread. And this seems to have merged many threads as well.

The game is indeed easy , if you use good gear ,but it is relatively moderate or hard if you step off the meta path far enough or can be downright brutal if you also pair that with tough missions, i would prefer that sharp curve to be a bit more ... Linear. Like they did to the ehp of grineer and melee damage that you mentioned.

And i absolutely hold DE responsible for letting it get this far through constant power creep and toning down any challenge cause of player backlash , but i will also acknowledge a good decision when I see it.

Like this change to ammo is good i think.

And we now have new people in the driving seat. Maybe we will actually see more changes , will i enjoy all of them ? Probably not , but i will see each of it for what it is hopefully without bias.

And i am not sure about good heartedness , i feel "likes " and "views " for content creators is a bigger factor.

[_LotusPrime_]

20 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I am sorry , i am not very clear on what you are saying or which person you are referring cause i have a lot of comments in this thread. And this seems to have merged many threads as well.

The game is indeed easy , if you use good gear ,but it is relatively moderate or hard if you step off the meta path far enough or can be downright brutal if you also pair that with tough missions, i would prefer that sharp curve to be a bit more ... Linear. Like they did to the ehp of grineer and melee damage that you mentioned.

And i absolutely hold DE responsible for letting it get this far through constant power creep and toning down any challenge cause of player backlash , but i will also acknowledge a good decision when I see it.

Like this change to ammo is good i think.

And we now have new people in the driving seat. Maybe we will actually see more changes , will i enjoy all of them ? Probably not , but i will see each of it for what it is hopefully without bias.

And i am not sure about good heartedness , i feel "likes " and "views " for content creators is a bigger factor.

Generally i agree with what you Just said in your last post, tho i dont agree with the ammo changes, it might hurt other types of ammo as well for the sake of nerfing kuva bramna and zarr, maybe theyll tweak and tune that as well who knows 

 

And as for content creators, i should have specified, i didnt necessarily meant youtube content makers but mostly in game help outside of clans, people were stingy with info sharing out of fear for those ways that could be nerfed, not saying it was non existant back then, but even with youtube content, creators would try to deliberately hide some over the top strats they did amongst their long survival groups but eventually info would get out. Now obviously thats not the case 

[(PSN)Pragmatic_2015]

On 2022-08-27 at 6:33 AM, Venus-Venera said:

line of sight!

Just attack from overhead 

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

Generally i agree with what you Just said in your last post, tho i dont agree with the ammo changes, it might hurt other types of ammo as well for the sake of nerfing kuva bramna and zarr, maybe theyll tweak and tune that as well who knows 

 

And as for content creators, i should have specified, i didnt necessarily meant youtube content makers but mostly in game help outside of clans, people were stingy with info sharing out of fear for those ways that could be nerfed, not saying it was non existant back then, but even with youtube content, creators would try to deliberately hide some over the top strats they did amongst their long survival groups but eventually info would get out. Now obviously thats not the case 

Not sure it will hurt other weapons , as it will be a function of max ammo along with some other parameters as a new stat. Rapid fire secondaries with large ammo pool will be most affected in a positive way , and low pool rifles will be affected in a negative way.

But yeah , when info is freely available people are less likely to hoard it.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

hace 14 horas, Venus-Venera dijo:

or they never play against higher enemies. hence the great balance.

Rebecca is the boss and she obviously plays the game a lot, megan does the same. I can't say the same about Pablo but he knows the game very well i doubt he won't do tests that would be very professional. They have played SP many times in streams but you go and say something without real foundation just a "my mom confirms it for me" commend.

[kinoko_takenoko]

3 hours ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

To be fair, melee nerf was huge and was only counter balanced by the enemy nerfs as well,  we had a 2 month period where you would have only multiplicative damage scaling (not exponential like the old) against enemies that had exponential ehp @Dunkelheit

 

@0_The_F00l yes the game is still very easy or mid Hard at Best and thats not a bad thing, but the thing is it is this way because DE deservedly receives backlash on each time they try to change System to 'try' to make this game another bullet sponge fest with no mevhanical intricancies of souls-esq

I dont know if the person youre replying to maybe has some things to learn although thats not really a point considering now everyones can access wf knowledge and builds and how to do damage across the board, well which wasnt the case before 4 or so years with vets hiding their strats from public and whatnot, reminder that pretty much good hearted wf in game community is a lot better now towards newer players who isnt in their tightest inner friend circle to show their niche ways. 

 

 

However, this AoE Nerf will not nerf the enemy.
Or no adjustments to missions will be made.
The enemy will only be relatively strengthened and the balance will be worsened.

(There will be a limited adjustment in potency, but it is not a universally effective adjustment, so it is not an adjustment to AoE Nerf.)

[Venus-Venera]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb kinoko_takenoko:

However, this AoE Nerf will not nerf the enemy.
Or no adjustments to missions will be made.
The enemy will only be relatively strengthened and the balance will be worsened.

(There will be a limited adjustment in potency, but it is not a universally effective adjustment, so it is not an adjustment to AoE Nerf.)

and they also want to offer sp relics. for great 1 se per mission as a reward. 4 insta rez from vazarin are completely used up in the first minute...

devs have probably played too many games like eve online and want to top it. so after work we continue to work in a virtual game.

[cute_moth.npc]

48 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

and they also want to offer sp relics. for great 1 se per mission as a reward. 4 insta rez from vazarin are completely used up in the first minute...

devs have probably played too many games like eve online and want to top it. so after work we continue to work in a virtual game.

You can always stop playing if you don't enjoy this game ^^

I'm going to enjoy that mode.

1 steel essence.. Plus acolytes every few minutes, double void traces and something fun to fight against!

[PrimalordialBob]

22 hours ago, (PSN)Cargan2016 said:

aoe weapons are not the only way to take care of killing large groups of enemies there are many ways to kill hoards.  There are CC abilities for frames and lets you line up head shots as you like after dealing with exmus enemies firs.  there is multiple frames with area damage that are not being nerfed.  there are weapons like the Nukor which is not aoe by definition its a single target weapon that chainligntings to the next closest enemie in a certain distance.

 

All this argument equalls into 😭😭😭 they took away my ability to be lazy

Crowd control frames only work in static area missions, not moving ones like exterminate. 

Your response to killing large hoards is AOE frames? So you are telling me to use AOE? Ironic...

Nukor can kill a couple of enemies, nothing compared to clearing out a room with one shot.

This argument is one about player efficiency. DE nerfed your ability to clear out fodder but kept the number of fodder. When repeating a mission dozens of times players will be less efficient than before.

Also thanks for being toxic

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, kinoko_takenoko said:

However, this AoE Nerf will not nerf the enemy.
Or no adjustments to missions will be made.
The enemy will only be relatively strengthened and the balance will be worsened

You're not accounting for 2 years of  buffs.  Helminth, weapon arcanes, galvanized mods, new Primed mods, various frame buffs, and soon shards.    These AoE nerfs are a tiny withdrawal from that surplus we've built up.

There isn't  any balance to worsen.  And don't worry, there still won't be.

[_LotusPrime_]

4 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

You're not accounting for 2 years of  buffs.  Helminth, weapon arcanes, galvanized mods, new Primed mods, various frame buffs, and soon shards.    These AoE nerfs are a tiny withdrawal from that surplus we've built up.

There isn't  any balance to worsen.  And don't worry, there still won't be.

there still wont be ? this is if you dont count of course the fall off nerf on launchers before and that we have no longer exponential damage calculus 

we have seen DE can do big nerfs , acting as if there has ONLY been buffs is disingenous

[kinoko_takenoko]

5 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

You're not accounting for 2 years of  buffs.  Helminth, weapon arcanes, galvanized mods, new Primed mods, various frame buffs, and soon shards.    These AoE nerfs are a tiny withdrawal from that surplus we've built up.

There isn't  any balance to worsen.  And don't worry, there still won't be.

Yes, I have been working on this for a while now. So Eximus was strengthened and Overguard was implemented.
As players were enhanced, enemies were buffed.
(And some Warframes lost significance).

[0_The_F00l]

6 minutes ago, PrimalordialBob said:

Crowd control frames only work in static area missions, not moving ones like exterminate. 

Wouldn't the same rules apply to AoE weapons and CC abilities ?

27 minutes ago, PrimalordialBob said:

This argument is one about player efficiency. DE nerfed your ability to clear out fodder but kept the number of fodder. When repeating a mission dozens of times players will be less efficient than before.

I believe that's the point.

[Tiltskillet]

6 minutes ago, _LotusPrime_ said:

there still wont be ? this is if you dont count of course the fall off nerf on launchers before and that we have no longer exponential damage calculus 

we have seen DE can do big nerfs , acting as if there has ONLY been buffs is disingenous

I didn't say there hadn't been any nerfs nor enemy buffs.   What I am saying is that we're far more powerful than two years ago.  And if you're killing enemies like flies now, you still will be after the update.

And it certainly wasn't a comprehensive list of the power upgrades we've had, not even to AoE alone.  Especially if you're going to back all the way to universal fall off, lol.    I think you're forgetting some important things that happened in that same update.

30 minutes ago, kinoko_takenoko said:

Yes, I have been working on this for a while now. So Eximus was strengthened and Overguard was implemented.
As players were enhanced, enemies were buffed.
(And some Warframes lost significance).

I agree on that last point, and it's something I'd like to see fixed.  But as some frames have lost significance, others have gained it.  If we just look at frames, weapons, and other assets as tools in a toolbox, our best tools, used together, are better at doing the job than ever.   (Maybe aside from some weird temporary stuff like stealth gas damage and the like.)

I think it will take a big upgrade in the enemies we're encouraged to go against in order to change that to any significant degree.