Veilbreaker: Launch & Hot Topics Week 2

[Graavarg]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Luke_Zakalwe said:

But good players won't be hampered by this loss. They simply go to other means to do damage.

AOE weapons are but a mean to do damage.

👍

Might also be worth it to point out that "most kills in a mission due to AoE spam" does not translate into "good player", as this is a common misconception among a certain subset of players. 

Instead "good" could be defined as a player being able to use a lot of a lot of DIFFERENT equipment in his/her arsenal to successfully complete missions. You could even add "without needing to copy it from the internet", since copying someone else's "good solution" doesn't make anyone a "good player", just a "good copycat" 😜.

[Graavarg]

10 hours ago, Do_High_Go said:

 I think you are right and wrong at the same time 🙂 .

Warframe does something that many other MMOs downright Refuse to do, and that is with release of new content, they lessen the grind for previous content when possible.

Guild Wars 2 does not do that, the timegates and resources needed 5 years ago are the same today for the same thing that is already outdated because it is 3-4 updates behind, that is a reason I stopped playing it. I always tried to catch up with my friend, he had already played it for solid 3+ years, and even with his help it was nearly impossible to catch up. There always was that obvious permanent power gap that for me to close, i would have to play for 3 years and tell my buddy to not play in that time???? Of course noone would do that, also noone is excited to become a slave to a game and play it in every waking hour just to catch up to a casual player that just played it for few more years.

What you described, that Feeling, I know it, and it applies for many other games, but Not Warframe. What is Power? Railjack? Necramech? Guns, Mods and Arcanes? Frames? Which one of these provides Actual impactful power spike?

Railjack was terrible at launch, you needed a lot of materials, crafting time was wayy wayy longer, not to mention the bugs. Now you can literally get taxied to a high level Railjack mission, provided you have at least basic Railjack, and just stay , man the guns, and get almost everything you will ever need for building a top tier Railjack in just 5-6 missions. I do not remember what it took before the rework, but it was definitely Not 5-6 missions :D  That is a good example, because a new player would not waste the same amount of time for the same gear, in fact it is over 20-30x faster to get a good Railjack up and running now compared to before. If your Buddy is willing to help, they can always take you with them, with their maxed ship, heck a good buddy might even yeet you an Affinity booster so you get some Intrinsics going too - you cannot put a plat price on having fun with your friends now can you.

Necramech is definitely something that would help a lot in Open Worlds and sometimes Railjack. Before you needed to grind up the standing to get the Voidrig Blueprints, Now you get them for free, how great is that? That is literal week+ that is being saved (depending on your MR). Sure you still have to go and get the parts, but you have your buddy with you, he knows the drill, as a hardcore veteran he should not have trouble carrying you. Even more, you can always ask him if he has some spare Damaged parts, i will bet he has some. Still tricking out your Necramech will be much faster than if you tried to get one and max it out at launch.

Even Amps got a reduction in crafting cost, like damn, I wish it was like that when it first came, would have saved me few hours here and there huh. Upping your MR is quite easy these days, one can become MR 30+ for a month with the right boosters and advise, so I cannot see MR as a source of valid criticism. I can make 12 MR 30 accounts in a year(or less) and then go a skew any voting happening that is MR locked. Hope you see the problem with this - there are MR 30 accounts for sale, and there are new players that would buy one, or you know get boosted and get their account to MR 30 for a month, both things are kinda yucky to me. It is not a problem with the idea, idea is good, but people..... some of them kinda suck and ruin it for everyone.

What you described is what i felt when trying to return to GW2 after a 2 month break. I have taken much much bigger breaks from Warframe, and never have I ever felt "weak" on return. Sure I had to rearrange some builds, and go fetch a thing from a new Syndicate for something new and shiny but it Never felt overwhelming and that is without any friendly help!

Catch up mechanics? In a primarily PvE game that actually reduces grind for older content? What if you are the veteran? You spent, let's say 3 months, grinding an update out, and then comes mister Mc. Immabuy Maxedaccount and gets an Account that has been AFK for 5 years, he logs in, and now is right behind you cuz Catchup u know, and he pokes you in the butt with "What best build for best weapon" type of questions, cuz he has all the pieces you spent time grinding, but no experience to put them together. I saw a guy like this once, he even bragged he bought the account, flexed his Excal Prime, and then proceeded to ask me how much plat is it for him to directly buy my mods - the mods from my config..... didn't even ask how it works. Do You want people like this to get free progression? I mean buying plat is ok, but these people don't buy the accounts from DE....

If you experienced what you experienced with Warframe, I have some bad news, your friends are not actually being very helpful, even if they appear to be. What you described happens when the new stuff is not properly explained with good farming strats added. The community can always help, that is the catch up mechanic we have established as a group, and it is worth more than what you might get from a free booster for being afk 1-2 months. If you need help catching up, by any means feel free to DM me, either here or in game if I am online, I will be more than happy to help, just like many others, and I promise you it will not take you 3-4 months to be on the same power level ;)

What is this, a long post and I agree with everything you write? 🙂

But you misunderstood one thing, it is me who would like my friends back, but even with helping & sharing stuff they feel it simply is a too massive grind. Had a one popping back in for the first Archon Hunt, then one more, then one more, with a new friend. So actually did the first two hunts twice and Nira trice (co-op helping). Then another friend noticed on Steam that "hey, you guys are playing Warframe again", and updated in order to join.

But. He hadn't played for over two years (dropped out when the liches arrived, account is from 2014), so no New War, no Necramech, no Railjack, no Helminth, no new arcanes, no new Primed Mods, no...

So he did the New War, but then dropped out again. It isn't that he can't manage, having all the gear up to 2019 is good enough for anything. It is even the time-consuming farming that is needed (even if your friends gift everything they can). We do this for the co-op, so the problem is that without these new mechanisms you can't play the same game as your friends. It is no not fun discussing squad composition with your friends (voice) and say "but I don't have the Helminth" when someone suggests "how about using ability X on...".

So farming the Helminth is of course not impossible for an experienced Warframe player. It might even be a bit of fun. Neither is any of the other stuff, on it's own. And getting some parts is core Warframe farming, but then you need to also farm the resources. And so on. As that list gets longer and longer and longer you realize that if you want to play "co-op Warframe" with your friends you have to dedicate the next MONTHS to Warframe in order to upgrade your stuff to the same level. It is not even that your friends would have a problem with you not having everything the game currently revolves around, it is how it feels not being able to fully participate. And even if all your friends would happily help you, you just can't ask them to grind A MONTH with you.

So, the conclusion of all this is that even if you really like playing with your friends and even if you feel that itch to get back into Warframe you are, from a practical viewpoint, "gated" from doing so. Having to use hundreds of hours to reach the level when you feel that you can participate fully in the co-op (at "the same level"), and all that time and effort spent 100% on grinding for stuff... it simply isn't an option. So you drop out again, knowing that the difference will just continue to grow, making it even more impossible the next time you feel like re-joining.

I'm sure anyone soloing can feel the same way about the grind, but it really is tragic that in a co-op game it is the actual co-op aspect that "kills" returning players. In other games there are better ways around this, friends can gift core gear, help with core missions, even speed up "leveling" (by dragging the poor sod to high exp gain missions where he shouldn't really be 🙂). But in Warframe is using "playing time" as the core gating mechanism, and so there is no way around spending that time. And the only way your friends could help is by spending that time with you. But they are not really needed, since it is not really difficult, only time and drop rates. And since we are talking about friends, you just don't want to put them through lots of extra grind, just because you left the game and they didn't.

We had a small tight clan, once upon a time, with 9-10 active players and double that in friend's friends. Of that bunch of 20-30 players, there is now 2 left actively playing, with 2 more occasionally joining simply to "keep up". About half have tried to re-join, but left again, mostly due to the "grind debt". Typically when they re-join again they have 20+ built "new" warframes and weapons in the foundry (they got all the parts as gifts the last time they "re-joined"), so it is not from lack of interesting content. And co-op is just as fun as it always was.

The killer is the total amount of grind that is "needed", and that there is absolutely no way around it.

So they leave, again.

[(PSN)Luke_Zakalwe]

10 hours ago, Graavarg said:

👍

Might also be worth it to point out that "most kills in a mission due to AoE spam" does not translate into "good player", as this is a common misconception among a certain subset of players. 

Instead "good" could be defined as a player being able to use a lot of a lot of DIFFERENT equipment in his/her arsenal to successfully complete missions. You could even add "without needing to copy it from the internet", since copying someone else's "good solution" doesn't make anyone a "good player", just a "good copycat" 😜.

Indeed! An AOE nerf only takes the crutch away from players not truly invested in the game. Now having it being curbed, they may struggle at difficulty levels they previously found playabe.

Of cource, the loss of power in a power fantasy is just that, a loss. I admit enjoying the Bramma once in a while myself with Arrow Mutation providing infinite explosions.

But I also admit being extremely annoyed with the same Bramma blasting at the defense target from one spot, never moving and blinding me in the process.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Luke_Zakalwe said:

Of cource, the loss of power in a power fantasy is just that, a loss. I admit enjoying the Bramma once in a while myself with Arrow Mutation providing infinite explosions

Thats the thing though, it didn't lose power, they adjusted how often you can use that power, and if you play smartly and mod right, you won't even have to worry about that. 

It was just made so you can't spam it as ridiculous as you could once before.

[(PSN)Luke_Zakalwe]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Thats the thing though, it didn't lose power, they adjusted how often you can use that power, and if you play smartly and mod right, you won't even have to worry about that. 

It was just made so you can't spam it as ridiculous as you could once before.

Loss of the fire rate is a loss of damage(per second). Plain and simple. A loss of ability to shoot (due to not having ammo) is even worse. No ammo means your weapon is useless..

A loss of half your ammunition is a 50% loss in your ability to inflict damage (btw, this is just an example numbers, I haven't bothered to do an actual math on this). Now you have to think before you shoot and conserve the ammo. A very welcomed change from DE to curb the wanton spamming.

The AOE weapons are (almost) as powerful as ever, but the ability to do (brainless) damage is reduced.

[Silligoose]

On 2022-09-25 at 12:06 AM, Graavarg said:

I think you are right and wrong at the same time 🙂. DE does have ample opportunities to make Warframe better, but those improvements are impossible to achieve without a lot of negative sentiment. And that is why they take short cuts and make half-measured fixes. In a way it is an "end with a bang or a whimper"-thing. Currently Warframe seems to be on a "whimper"-trajectory, and to stop this there has to be some really real change at some point. But such change is also risky, blowing up core parts of the game an re-doing them might lose you players that you never get back.

But there really is huge (enormously huge) potential in Warframe still, it just can't be unlocked with fixes, tweaks or with "new" content that is created with a "the same but different" approach. The problem is not attenuation, bullet sponges or AoE spam removal, or eximus shields or any of the game math. The problem is that we need something else to fight for than just "more loot".

Gotta go on a tangent here =>

This especially concerns such loot that just make the "power fantasy" even more insane. And it also concerns all the timegates and other gates we have to hop through, in order to stretch out out the content over more playing time. Because not only does such gates lose their luster over time for those that are still playing actively, they form a HUGE hindrance to a lot of players that left at high rank and would now be interested to come back, but in order to do so they would have to play through a couple of months forced content just to get near their former friends.

There is a lot of "post-Warframe" hardcore gamers out there, who have been studying, making babies, getting their first job, had a real life, and now would like to come back into the fold and play with their friends, those that stayed and are still playing. But they are presented with an impossible choice, either they join and play at a "lower power level" than their friends (who have "everything"), or they have to spend months hopping through all these gates just to get to the same level. So, yeah, their account is still active, and they occasionally join for an evening of Warframe, and they are pretty interested in all the new stuff. But then it starts dawning on them what is actually required, and there the glorious return just fizzles out. Imagine not having the Helminth, not having done the New War, not having a single one of all the new arcanes, not knowing what Zariman is, missing a load of new mods, no Necramech, no Railjack, no mods or resources for these. New interesting warframes and weapons can be farmed fairly easily, some stuff can be bought for money, but all that other stuff... it's a humongous task. And even with the help of friends that are still playing, simply "too humongous".

And that is a shame, because I am pretty darned certain that if DE would ask every MR30+ in the game, the answer would be that most have several friends that have left and might be interested in coming back. But not as "inferior", and not if it takes 500 hours of playing time just to get back to a "friend" level. The reason for this lock-out is the power fantasy progression, coupled with the content-stretching mechanics that are geared to maximize playing time for new content. When you stack these together, you get a power gap that needs a inordinate effort to close. You don't even need that power for Warframe itself, but gamer friends playing together need to be at roughly the same level, it's a hardcore gamer thing.

A change that would flip a lot of stuff on it's head could also be a working re-entry point for former Tenno, if handled correctly, offering a level field and/or leveling mechanisms. These are guys that knew the game, have fond memories, friends that are still playing and money to spend. If I am counting correctly that is a win-win-win-win-win-situation.

Because if Warframe doesn't do this, and presuming Soulframe becomes a reality, many of us will transfer there instead. Even if it is smaller, buggier, unfinished. Because that will be the workable option to play with our friends again, on a level playing field. Restarting at level 0 with nothing, but together with friends, trumps L3 (or wherever we are at that point) with "everything", but alone. Other game are eating into Warframe's playerbase too, of course, but Soulframe will be "Warframe, but different". With friendly co-op in Warframe locked behind 500 hours of forced farming, that is the unbeatable option.

So rip Warframe apart, and put it together again. Crush the "power fantasy", link all the content islands, introduce "mercy" farming mechanisms,  give us something to care about and play for, and allow players to help old friends come back by any means necessary. And you can have ten more years, easy.

Before we get into mitigation of negative sentiment, let's talk about power fantasy: Power fantasy game simply entails a game giving players the opportunity to experience the feeling of power they cannot experience in real life. It does not mean a game is easy. It does not mean a game is hard. Warframe is power fantasy, but so is something like Doom Eternal, at all levels of play and difficulty. Players that enjoy power fantasy games encompass a wide spectrum, from those enjoying becoming gods that cannot be challenged, to those enjoying becoming gods that actually have their power challenged and this vast spectrum is appeased within games by way of varied difficulty setting and optional challenges. Due to Warframe's gameplay at various levels, players from all over the spectrum are attracted.

The problem with DE's mentality is they are trying to squeeze players at various levels of progression, and players at very different places within the power fantasy spectrum mentioned above, into one "difficulty setting". They are trying to appease different players who enjoy different components of power fantasy, and they attempt to use things like damage attenuation to do so., which ends up being a little bit of a rug pull - DE tells players: "Farm this weapon and those mods and Endo and you will do x100 times more damage than you used to." Players do that. Does DE then introduce the option of fighting enemies that can take x100 times the damage? No. They introduce enemies with damage attenuation, which basically says "LMAO you were never actually going to do x100 times damage as you were led to believe against THIS enemy, because we don't actually want to give you that power.". That is a problem, because unlike mechanics where damage resistance is as a result of some type of universal, uniform, mechanic on the enemy that is acceptable within the game's world (eg an armoured enemy takes less physical damage, or a plant enemy is resistant to water damage), damage attenuation just results in lesser damage based on the player's setup because the developers didn't want to bother balancing gear properly, didn't want to do the work of having different levels of difficulty to accommodate players at various places within the power fantasy spectrum and, as far as I can tell, want to be able to advertise that certain increases in power are available, even though it isn't really the case, especially not when it matters the most in many players' eyes. That is bad design. It screws with progression value and power fantasy on a level far worse than something like straight up nerfs to a weapon or a mod and DA is not the only mechanic guilty of bad design.

That's really where a lot of the problems come in: DE doesn't want to balance endgame power accordingly, for various reason it seems. At the same time, they want to throw various levels of progression into the same difficulty level and want to appease different demographics at the same time within those levels.

It seems you believe drastic changes would be needed if you are talking about blowing up core parts of gameplay, ripping apart Warframe and crushing the power fantasy. I'm not sure what you think needs to happen, but nothing as drastic as what you seem to imply, is needed. There are exceptional outliers in performance that require rebalancing. To mitigate negative sentiment, some of the rebalancing need not be universal and can apply to a "hard mode" that serves as endgame. The game in hard mode shouldn't suddenly be very different from the Warframe players know - Warframe would still be Warframe, but "hard mode" should simply be Warframe in which more of the knowledge, skills and gear acquired needs to be used in unison to perform well.

I don't mind the monetization system DE uses, but the pivots in gameplay and locking some progression behind it can be annoying (eg Warframe weapons being locked behind Break Narmer missions). I feel you are exaggerating the requirements to catch up in power if one has left the game for a while.

Going on a tangent of my own: I've seen some talk regarding Soulframe and how players are looking towards it if Warframe's balance and direction doesn't improve... That's fine, but players need to remember the people overseeing Soulframe are the same people who didn't give a damn about lategame balancing in Warframe, avoided the subject multiple times in streams and, for years, oversaw obviously broken mechanics being implemented into Warframe. 

[Graavarg]

4 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Before we get into mitigation of negative sentiment, let's talk about power fantasy: Power fantasy game simply entails a game giving players the opportunity to experience the feeling of power they cannot experience in real life. It does not mean a game is easy. It does not mean a game is hard. Warframe is power fantasy, but so is something like Doom Eternal, at all levels of play and difficulty. Players that enjoy power fantasy games encompass a wide spectrum, from those enjoying becoming gods that cannot be challenged, to those enjoying becoming gods that actually have their power challenged and this vast spectrum is appeased within games by way of varied difficulty setting and optional challenges. Due to Warframe's gameplay at various levels, players from all over the spectrum are attracted.

The problem with DE's mentality is they are trying to squeeze players at various levels of progression, and players at very different places within the power fantasy spectrum mentioned above, into one "difficulty setting". They are trying to appease different players who enjoy different components of power fantasy, and they attempt to use things like damage attenuation to do so., which ends up being a little bit of a rug pull - DE tells players: "Farm this weapon and those mods and Endo and you will do x100 times more damage than you used to." Players do that. Does DE then introduce the option of fighting enemies that can take x100 times the damage? No. They introduce enemies with damage attenuation, which basically says "LMAO you were never actually going to do x100 times damage as you were led to believe against THIS enemy, because we don't actually want to give you that power.". That is a problem, because unlike mechanics where damage resistance is as a result of some type of universal, uniform, mechanic on the enemy that is acceptable within the game's world (eg an armoured enemy takes less physical damage, or a plant enemy is resistant to water damage), damage attenuation just results in lesser damage based on the player's setup because the developers didn't want to bother balancing gear properly, didn't want to do the work of having different levels of difficulty to accommodate players at various places within the power fantasy spectrum and, as far as I can tell, want to be able to advertise that certain increases in power are available, even though it isn't really the case, especially not when it matters the most in many players' eyes. That is bad design. It screws with progression value and power fantasy on a level far worse than something like straight up nerfs to a weapon or a mod and DA is not the only mechanic guilty of bad design.

That's really where a lot of the problems come in: DE doesn't want to balance endgame power accordingly, for various reason it seems. At the same time, they want to throw various levels of progression into the same difficulty level and want to appease different demographics at the same time within those levels.

It seems you believe drastic changes would be needed if you are talking about blowing up core parts of gameplay, ripping apart Warframe and crushing the power fantasy. I'm not sure what you think needs to happen, but nothing as drastic as what you seem to imply, is needed. There are exceptional outliers in performance that require rebalancing. To mitigate negative sentiment, some of the rebalancing need not be universal and can apply to a "hard mode" that serves as endgame. The game in hard mode shouldn't suddenly be very different from the Warframe players know - Warframe would still be Warframe, but "hard mode" should simply be Warframe in which more of the knowledge, skills and gear acquired needs to be used in unison to perform well.

I don't mind the monetization system DE uses, but the pivots in gameplay and locking some progression behind it can be annoying (eg Warframe weapons being locked behind Break Narmer missions). I feel you are exaggerating the requirements to catch up in power if one has left the game for a while.

Going on a tangent of my own: I've seen some talk regarding Soulframe and how players are looking towards it if Warframe's balance and direction doesn't improve... That's fine, but players need to remember the people overseeing Soulframe are the same people who didn't give a damn about lategame balancing in Warframe, avoided the subject multiple times in streams and, for years, oversaw obviously broken mechanics being implemented into Warframe. 

First of all I am not buying that Warframe actually is a "power fantasy" game, since the term "power fantasy" is a made up category that fits just about anything. I never saw Warframe billed as a "power fantasy" game the first time and started playing, and not the second time either. It is a term that DE actively seemed to avoid, until it suddenly crept in through a devstream in the form of "yeah, we know you want your power fantasy...". Some players have used it extensively on the forum though, but mostly a form of illogical argument (Warframe is a power fantasy => power fantasies should be this or that => therefore Warframe should also be this or that). 

That said, Warframe do have "power fantasy" elements, due to two things: the possibility of playing any mission (regressing the enemy difficulty back to starting level while keeping you own power level intact) and the ever present power creep. Both are also continuously increasing, the first due to having to add more challenging stuff (and raising the player power accordingly), and power creep is inevitable in any game that adds new weapons (and need income from them), every now and then they have to be better than what the game already has. But that Warframe should have an inherent core goal of removing all difficulty from players (god mode, the ultimate power fantasy) or that this have ever been a design choice, that I do not buy, at all. My take is exactly the opposite, that DE has been caught riding the tiger of "power fantasy/creep" and barely kept up content-wise. And from a game design perspective "power fantasy" only makes sense if it is a way to achieve income (retain paying customers), but in Warframe the "power fantasy" is what makes players leave. The game becomes so easy all main content becomes utterly boring. Some players are retained by "sandbox stuff" or "total completion", but most leave because the gameplay has become meaningless and unchallenging.

So while achieving "more power" is a core thing (like in the majority of computer games), the "power fantasy" is mostly a negative thing, for the game as a whole. Warframe is most fun when you have some real challenge, that you can overcome by selecting gear and weapons, modding them and maybe even team up with friends. And then put all that into practice. I actually think most of us know this (even most of those that see Warframe as a "power fantasy"), because that is why "balancing" pops up so often. Though there is a slight difference, some want balancing in the form of REAL challenge, something that takes an effort to overcome. Because overcoming real challenge feels great. Others want "effortless" balancing in order to increase the feeling of power. Why stomp ants when you could stomp mice, or rats, or even bigger things. Those are also the true "power fantasy" disciples, btw.

I don't think "blowing Warframe apart" is all that drastic, I see it more as LEGO thing. You break what you've built apart because you are not satisfied and have a better idea, but the new thing you build is built from the same parts. Rebalancing is at the core of it, but also a form of divergence and diversity. A good example would be the current damage system, which becomes meaningless and so more indistinct the better weapons you get.  After a certain level it really doesn't matter if you have modded for Fire or Slash or Blast or whatever. At most you need to press the trigger e second time. Big deal. And that is just dumb game design. So is having armor effects that INCREASE the amount of damage, what is all that about? If splinters from the armor become extra lethal when Tenno shoot a certain thing at it, why use it in the first place? And explosions, since they are currently "a thing of interest". It has always seemed pretty clear to me than a "Radiation" explosion really should go through everything (walls etc.), but a "Fire", "Cold" or "Toxic" explosion should not. The cloud from a "Gas" explosion should spread/travel over time, reaching the other side of walls and stuff, wherever physically possible. An "Electric" explosion should spread ALONG floors/walls, A "Puncture" explosion should partly reach everything and so on and on. Enemies should be much more immune to elemental damage, both inherently and adaptively, but IPS damage should be mitigated only by armor/skin.

To me it seems that DE has intentionally or by chance built this complex "sandbox" world over time, but instead of utilizing all that content they've intentionally made "easy paths" for players instead. And since it ha become so bloody easy, you can't count of "challenge" as a time-gate so instead you tinker with drop rates. Which has absolutely nothing to do with difficulty, only with how quickly players can cheese the mission, which then makes the mission both unrewarding and boring. And since players are screaming after challenge, you pseudo-nerf their gear by attenuation (as you rightly point out). Btw, attenuation is actually a time-gate to a successful kill, so at least DE is consistent...

When the Archon Hunt arrived about a month ago, I did the the first one with a friend. We failed two missions, we couldn't keep the def object alive, then we went for both helmets at once (and I went down and died, sniffle) but had a heck of fun. The final boss fight was actually the least fun (it was ok). In the previous hunt a couple of friends asked if we would join to help (one is fairly new, a fast track MR14) since they couldn't make through the interception. We'd already done it, so cocky and sure we joined. And failed, we couldn't keep enough of point long enough, because the two other guys couldn't kill enemies quickly enough so we got an Eximus/sentient mob capping point after point. We were playing all-out with total endgame gear and at 87% when the enemies reached 100% in the second round. We re-thought, re-equipped and did it again (keeping everything under control). Probably the most fun I've had in ages, fighting really real enemies in Warframe. Wow! 🙂

Anyway, I'm digressing and have no idea whre I am going with this, so I'll stop here. But that is what I would see in the rebuilt Warframe 2.0, enemies that can win, missions that need some preparation and thought, a meaningful gear selection instead of "one of my metas fit all", and co-op being the best solution for everything. And with missions actually difficult, drops/drop rates could be geared as real rewards, instead of the randomly time-gated "you have to do the same mission 50 times"-system. Mission could be set up as linked "opt-out" mission trees, where you an choose to leave with your current loot or go to the "next level" (a game system that's worked since before there were any home computers).

As for Soulframe, I have hope. Steve & co are old skool (and so am I, btw). If they are allowed to pick and choose from all the good-to-brilliant technical solutions tested and implemented in Warframe, and allowing the pitfalls at the same time, well, who knows. It might be THE thing. But Warframe needs to change, or it'll die with a whimper. It isn't about the total amount of players, it is about those players so motivated they put in real money. A "power fantasy" where all you have is a boring time-gated mega-farm experience cannot achieve that, of that I'm sure. And that is why it needs blowing up, not to destroy anything (except "too much power"), but to be able to put it together again, differently.

[VladYvhv]

Maybe what people who want a challenge need is a "I want a challenge" toggle in settings, or something akin to Steel Path, where you can opt in to more challenging gameplay, and leave the basic game the way it is.

[Silligoose]

21 hours ago, Graavarg said:

First of all I am not buying that Warframe actually is a "power fantasy" game, since the term "power fantasy" is a made up category that fits just about anything. I never saw Warframe billed as a "power fantasy" game the first time and started playing, and not the second time either. It is a term that DE actively seemed to avoid, until it suddenly crept in through a devstream in the form of "yeah, we know you want your power fantasy...". Some players have used it extensively on the forum though, but mostly a form of illogical argument (Warframe is a power fantasy => power fantasies should be this or that => therefore Warframe should also be this or that). 

That said, Warframe do have "power fantasy" elements, due to two things: the possibility of playing any mission (regressing the enemy difficulty back to starting level while keeping you own power level intact) and the ever present power creep. Both are also continuously increasing, the first due to having to add more challenging stuff (and raising the player power accordingly), and power creep is inevitable in any game that adds new weapons (and need income from them), every now and then they have to be better than what the game already has. But that Warframe should have an inherent core goal of removing all difficulty from players (god mode, the ultimate power fantasy) or that this have ever been a design choice, that I do not buy, at all. My take is exactly the opposite, that DE has been caught riding the tiger of "power fantasy/creep" and barely kept up content-wise. And from a game design perspective "power fantasy" only makes sense if it is a way to achieve income (retain paying customers), but in Warframe the "power fantasy" is what makes players leave. The game becomes so easy all main content becomes utterly boring. Some players are retained by "sandbox stuff" or "total completion", but most leave because the gameplay has become meaningless and unchallenging.

So while achieving "more power" is a core thing (like in the majority of computer games), the "power fantasy" is mostly a negative thing, for the game as a whole. Warframe is most fun when you have some real challenge, that you can overcome by selecting gear and weapons, modding them and maybe even team up with friends. And then put all that into practice. I actually think most of us know this (even most of those that see Warframe as a "power fantasy"), because that is why "balancing" pops up so often. Though there is a slight difference, some want balancing in the form of REAL challenge, something that takes an effort to overcome. Because overcoming real challenge feels great. Others want "effortless" balancing in order to increase the feeling of power. Why stomp ants when you could stomp mice, or rats, or even bigger things. Those are also the true "power fantasy" disciples, btw.

I don't think "blowing Warframe apart" is all that drastic, I see it more as LEGO thing. You break what you've built apart because you are not satisfied and have a better idea, but the new thing you build is built from the same parts. Rebalancing is at the core of it, but also a form of divergence and diversity. A good example would be the current damage system, which becomes meaningless and so more indistinct the better weapons you get.  After a certain level it really doesn't matter if you have modded for Fire or Slash or Blast or whatever. At most you need to press the trigger e second time. Big deal. And that is just dumb game design. So is having armor effects that INCREASE the amount of damage, what is all that about? If splinters from the armor become extra lethal when Tenno shoot a certain thing at it, why use it in the first place? And explosions, since they are currently "a thing of interest". It has always seemed pretty clear to me than a "Radiation" explosion really should go through everything (walls etc.), but a "Fire", "Cold" or "Toxic" explosion should not. The cloud from a "Gas" explosion should spread/travel over time, reaching the other side of walls and stuff, wherever physically possible. An "Electric" explosion should spread ALONG floors/walls, A "Puncture" explosion should partly reach everything and so on and on. Enemies should be much more immune to elemental damage, both inherently and adaptively, but IPS damage should be mitigated only by armor/skin.

To me it seems that DE has intentionally or by chance built this complex "sandbox" world over time, but instead of utilizing all that content they've intentionally made "easy paths" for players instead. And since it ha become so bloody easy, you can't count of "challenge" as a time-gate so instead you tinker with drop rates. Which has absolutely nothing to do with difficulty, only with how quickly players can cheese the mission, which then makes the mission both unrewarding and boring. And since players are screaming after challenge, you pseudo-nerf their gear by attenuation (as you rightly point out). Btw, attenuation is actually a time-gate to a successful kill, so at least DE is consistent...

When the Archon Hunt arrived about a month ago, I did the the first one with a friend. We failed two missions, we couldn't keep the def object alive, then we went for both helmets at once (and I went down and died, sniffle) but had a heck of fun. The final boss fight was actually the least fun (it was ok). In the previous hunt a couple of friends asked if we would join to help (one is fairly new, a fast track MR14) since they couldn't make through the interception. We'd already done it, so cocky and sure we joined. And failed, we couldn't keep enough of point long enough, because the two other guys couldn't kill enemies quickly enough so we got an Eximus/sentient mob capping point after point. We were playing all-out with total endgame gear and at 87% when the enemies reached 100% in the second round. We re-thought, re-equipped and did it again (keeping everything under control). Probably the most fun I've had in ages, fighting really real enemies in Warframe. Wow! 🙂

Anyway, I'm digressing and have no idea whre I am going with this, so I'll stop here. But that is what I would see in the rebuilt Warframe 2.0, enemies that can win, missions that need some preparation and thought, a meaningful gear selection instead of "one of my metas fit all", and co-op being the best solution for everything. And with missions actually difficult, drops/drop rates could be geared as real rewards, instead of the randomly time-gated "you have to do the same mission 50 times"-system. Mission could be set up as linked "opt-out" mission trees, where you an choose to leave with your current loot or go to the "next level" (a game system that's worked since before there were any home computers).

As for Soulframe, I have hope. Steve & co are old skool (and so am I, btw). If they are allowed to pick and choose from all the good-to-brilliant technical solutions tested and implemented in Warframe, and allowing the pitfalls at the same time, well, who knows. It might be THE thing. But Warframe needs to change, or it'll die with a whimper. It isn't about the total amount of players, it is about those players so motivated they put in real money. A "power fantasy" where all you have is a boring time-gated mega-farm experience cannot achieve that, of that I'm sure. And that is why it needs blowing up, not to destroy anything (except "too much power"), but to be able to put it together again, differently.

We are we are more or less on the same page regarding many topics. Yeah "Power fantasy" is broad terms I don't find much value in, but much like you I have noticed players attributing a specific form of it to Warframe and using it as a reason for the game needing to be a certain way, especially at higher levels of progression, which I find silly. DE making a comment like "we know you like your power fantasy" (paraphrasing) really wasn't a great move, especially if they don't actually talk about how broad the term is.

I agree with you in that I also believe many players leave due to the lack of challenge and the devolution of gameplay with progression, due to overall lack of balance and certain exceptional outliers in performance rendering many formerly competitive choices moot, resulting in the strategical- and tactical depth of lategame being vastly inferior to what is experienced at earlier levels of progression. Eventually the game is akin to playing a game with cheats enabling godmode, infinite ammo and super damage. Fleeting entertainment, at best, for most, before they get bored.

The wording "blowing up Warframe' made it sound (to me) as though you were looking towards something far more drastic than what you described, but really to me it seems you are simply looking towards avenues that continue to build on the variety in mechanics to make them more unique and have them remain competitive choices into endgame.

Your story of the Archon hunt and the fun experienced as a result of the very real threat of failure, very much ties in with what actually kept me playing, right as I was about to quit again. Much as for you, I was reminded of how much fun Warframe can be in missions where I was getting my ass kicked a bit. Ironically, it was The Grendel Missions for me - the missions in which most of my progress was nullified. I chose to play Survival and Excavation solo to avoid teammates that cheese the content after I completed the defence mission and even though it took multiple tries, it was the gameplay experienced in those missions that reminded me of how good Warframe actually can be when it isn't a walk-over, as the resultant experience was more diverse than usual - I had to pay attention to resource economy. I had to use the right weapons in the right circumstances, and I had to employ a greater level of tactical play. The experience was great, but I was disappointed that DE seemingly had to nullify so much progression to be able to bring the level of challenge experienced in that mission, compounded with the realization that I would not have that type of experience and challenge if I make use of the full power available to me. I continue to find it disappointing that DE is wasting their time on "pivot gameplay" such as Break Narmer, Necramechs and I don't have much enthusiasm for the upcoming Drifter pivot with Duviri Paradox either.

I honestly cannot tell how intentional the creation of the "easy paths" were. There is a part of me that screams it HAS to be intentional, because it is very obvious when certain mechanics are going to be overpowered and imbalances are also very, very apparent. There is, however, another part of me that has listened to some of the comments and reasoning shared in devstreams and... that part is not so sure that the devs understand the ramifications of the implemented mechanics. Comments like "in hindsight we can see how much self-damage did to keep AoE in check" (paraphrasing), or a situation in which Pablo said he watched a Youtube video in which a player wasn't using abilities and he found himself cringing at this, wanting to see the player use abilities... I'm sitting here listening to things like these and find myself thinking hindsight wasn't needed to understand how much self-damage was doing to balance AoE. I'm sitting and wondering how anyone that understands the game would even quesiton why abilities weren't used in the footage, since it is blatantly obvious the abilities served no practical purpose in the situation that had played out. Even the change to Void Strike was blatantly broken and yet, here we are, with DE trying to use DA to curb damage output, all the while they just recently gave players an x10 damage multiplier button...

Time will tell what happens to this game. It seems to lack direction and it seems the paths that are carved towards certain directions are done so poorly.

[GREF_TM]

Given the direction this whole AoE thing is going, I can't help but wonder when do they nerf glaive prime. It essentially does the same thing but has infinite ammo, good stats and mods, and effectively a built-in much better hunter's munition (instead of 30% on crit, you get 100% on any hit - not like it won't crit of course, but 100 is still a 100). And even rivens for the thing are universally good, as even with lowest dispo possible you can still roll into +10 combo count for the best mod in slot. Thing effectively doesn't have weaknesses and goes against everything that AoE nerfs were designed to combat.

[Yrkul]

On 2022-09-16 at 10:42 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Kahl’s Bonus Challenges are getting some quality-of-life improvements. Firstly, we’re working to ensure that progress in these Challenges will be cumulative. Tenno will be able to partially complete a Challenge (ex: only removing 3 of 5 Veils) and then have that progress counted towards completing the challenge when repeating the mission (i.e. only 2 more Veils would need to be removed). Additionally, we’ve already improved the visibility of Chipper’s Tools and added a sound to the K-Drive parts as a result of player feedback. Another week brings another Mission to take on with Kahl, Veils need breaking - and we’ll be watching to prepare tweaks and improvements in upcoming hotfixes. 

So... When are we going to see this implemented? Finishing a mission with no reward or progress, because the game didn't spawn enough tags/codes/floof etc, is getting really old really fast.

[Numerounius]

On 9/16/2022 at 1:42 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

We’ve kept a close look on Archon Hunts, and still have plans to iterate these fights based on Community Feedback. Nira is on deck next week, we’ll be keeping an eye out to see how the Final Archon fight fares. We have some experimental changes we’re testing out related to damage attenuation but don’t want to rush it out the door too early. We want to make sure we have stats for each fight and how we can apply rules holistically. We will share the stats in our upcoming Devstream (which of the three Archons had what type of success rates, etc), and will provide deeper explanations of the challenges in using damage attenuation vs. having ‘single digit second’ boss fights. It will be an open discussion, and we will invite you to join us when we announce our next Devstream. 

 

So can we can expect these changes soon? And further discussion about the gameplay of archon hunts as mentioned in this post? Which I think was stopped prematurely as shown by this being the last post regarding the update.