Let’s talk about Mesmer Skin

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 6 heures, (PSN)rexis12 a dit :

You want Mesmer Skin to not have full 1s invul anymore? Fine, then make Overguarded Enemies be able to be stunned by it, because it sure as sh!t was working fine before the Eximus rework.

Well, last year, on another thread about this same subject, some players said that the Mesmer Skin problem with Overguard is not new and happened before the Eximus Rework : for PC players (higher spawn rate than on conoles), the problem comes from the release of Steel Path missions, where enemy spawn rate is always at a 4-squad level, even if you're playing solo : Revenant used to have a bad time to keep Mesmer Skin due to the high fire rate enemies around on some missions.

Many of us concluded that a possible fix would be to apply the one second invulnerability only if Revenant is attacked by a CC immune enemy.

(XBOX)GearsMatrix301 fix is also really nice (I would vote for, if there was a vote) and I totally agree with Tiltskillet (a very reasonable Tenno, by the way) :

Il y a 1 heure, Tiltskillet a dit :

Wow, I just wanna say, agree or disagree with the premise or the solution offered...

Pretty reasonable GearsMatrix Revenant thread.

That's a few words I didn't think would ever be strung together.

On the other hand, when you ask to make Overguarded enemies affected by Mesmer Skin CC, many would say that it would kill overguard and make it useless. The problem is that some CC abilities works (and always worked, even though many players have warned the Devs about this, me included) on Eximus with Overguard Active : Rhino, Mesa, Mag, Gara, Titania and the worst Wisp (it's an infusable ability that can be but on every single frame). In my opinion, no CC ability should work on Eximus and there is no need to add Mesmer Skin to this list (that, I hope, will be fixed one day for more consistency).

To be honest, I still think Mesmer Skin is currently unbalanced and that it needs to be fixed, but I don't really know what's the best way to do it.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

11 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

but you are ok with rushing a "fix" to revenant, lol ok

Reducing the dr by 10% could literallly be done in a day.

11 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Lol no doesn't, all it does is skal another layer of band aids on a band aid that was created as a result of a band aid.

DE, and the players, didn't think that the old Mesmer Skin was a problem especially at Star Chart where enemy spawns in, at max about 7 if you squint hard enough, and even with Steel Path upping the enemy counts to 30 at times, that players complained but it wasn't bad for both players and DE to change it.

I wonder what changed, I wonder Mechanic was added that pushed DE to add in that 1 second invul window.

I wonder.

Eximus overguard is a problem, but mesmer skin works against more than just Eximus.

[Skoomaseller]

19 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Reducing the dr by 10% could literallly be done in a day.

Eximus overguard is a problem, but mesmer skin works against more than just Eximus.

fixing overguard can also take a day. if you can't see where you're going with your own logic I'm sorry but you're more lost that I thought you were.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Skoomaseller said:

fixing overguard can also take a day. if you can't see where you're going with your own logic I'm sorry but you're more lost that I thought you were.

Fixing overguard involves (well the way I want it addressed) unlinking the non-CC effects from CC abilities and having them function against Eximus with overguard. That’s considerably more work than changing a single number value, and would take more than a day.

[DeadVoid118]

On 2023-02-03 at 7:23 AM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

The slow casting speed is no longer a justifiable defense for it. It’s literally free invincibility with no drawbacks when it’s active.

Nyx gets free invincibility with an augment that can last far longer than Mesmer Skin. One of Valkyr's base abilities makes her invincible. Zephyr is invincible so long as you press 2 buttons, one to float and one for her 3. Somebody has to have the best ability for tanking, and that's Revenant. That's not really an issue when the difference between him and other immortals is that he requires one less button press.

"When it's active, they're invincible" is true of a lot of things in Warframe. You can't just ignore the recasting issue, otherwise I can just ignore the fact 90% DR tank frames like Nezha only need adaptation to be invincible, and that would make a lot of frames qualify for functional immortality in any content DE should balance around (AKA anything that isn't level cap). The tradeoff for Mesmer Skin is that initiating it leaves you vulnerable and you have to pay special attention to when it runs out or recast it early because it doesn't notify the player as well as other tank frame abilities do (Warding Halo plays an obvious noise and a big bottom-right icon disappears, Splinter Storm also gets rid of a big bottom-right icon) (and also that it's only a reflective ability and doesn't grant true status immunity, but that's a minor thing).

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

3 hours ago, DeadVoid118 said:

Nyx gets free invincibility with an augment that can last far longer than Mesmer Skin. One of Valkyr's base abilities makes her invincible. Zephyr is invincible so long as you press 2 buttons, one to float and one for her 3. Somebody has to have the best ability for tanking, and that's Revenant. That's not really an issue when the difference between him and other immortals is that he requires one less button press.

"When it's active, they're invincible" is true of a lot of things in Warframe. You can't just ignore the recasting issue, otherwise I can just ignore the fact 90% DR tank frames like Nezha only need adaptation to be invincible, and that would make a lot of frames qualify for functional immortality in any content DE should balance around (AKA anything that isn't level cap). The tradeoff for Mesmer Skin is that initiating it leaves you vulnerable and you have to pay special attention to when it runs out or recast it early because it doesn't notify the player as well as other tank frame abilities do (Warding Halo plays an obvious noise and a big bottom-right icon disappears, Splinter Storm also gets rid of a big bottom-right icon) (and also that it's only a reflective ability and doesn't grant true status immunity, but that's a minor thing).

Nyx can barely move while invincible. Valkyr can literally die by uncasting her invincible power when next to an enemy. I already mentioned why Zephyrs 3 has a trade off.

Theres a big difference between “effectively invincible” and “literally invincible”. Throwing Adaptation o Nezhas makes him very hard to kill. He is “effectively invincible”. But he can still die under certain circumstances even with adaptation maxed and a crap ton of Warding halo health. Revenant is literally invincible. You throw anything at him and he will not take damage, and you can throw that same thing at him endlessly and for 15 straight seconds he will not die. That is a problem.

[DeadVoid118]

1 minute ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Nyx can barely move while invincible. Valkyr can literally die by uncasting her invincible power when next to an enemy. I already mentioned why Zephyrs 3 has a trade off.

Nyx can roll just like Ivara in Prowl or Mesa in her Waltz, Nyx has no actual trouble getting around.

I'ma be honest, it's not worth my time to search several pages just to find where you mentioned Zephyr's tradeoff, but I will state that there isn't really a tradeoff. You float in the air and have enough range (which Zephyr builds anyway, just like Rev wants to build power strength with or without Mesmer Skin) and nothing can kill you, not even AoE. Floating in the air is only necessary for melee enemies, which you don't need to mind when moving around, so really there is no drawback. You can even protect other things in range of your 3.

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Theres a big difference between “effectively invincible” and “literally invincible”. Throwing Adaptation o Nezhas makes him very hard to kill. He is “effectively invincible”. But he can still die under certain circumstances even with adaptation maxed and a crap ton of Warding halo health. Revenant is literally invincible. You throw anything at him and he will not take damage, and you can throw that same thing at him endlessly and for 15 straight seconds he will not die. That is a problem.

There really isn't. I've literally never died with Nezha, or Gara either (discounting nullification of abilities which kills Rev too). And they can last a lot longer than 15 straight seconds standing still.

I've used Nezha against everything. I've gone into the highest peaks of Steel Path and waited around for a while. He does not die, no boss can kill him, and the only thing that might would be level cap or waiting around long enough for his HP to reach 0 with Warding Halo up which has literally never happened to me (I think at some point it might've been tweaked to prevent death like Mesmer Skin? I've seen Nezha stuck at 40 HP with Halo up before while testing, but y'know how buggy things can be and it's really hard to get to the point where Nezha is that low in the first place, like you have to literally not do anything for a few minutes other than take shots to the face, which is significantly harder than Revenant).

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 14 heures, DeadVoid118 a dit :

Nyx gets free invincibility with an augment that can last far longer than Mesmer Skin.

Nope. There are many differences between Nyx invulnerability and Revenant invulnerability :

=> Nyx needs an Augment Mod and a specific build to be able to use Assimilate to stay invulnerable and even with a very good build it will only last longer than Revenant's Mesmer Skin on low level or medium level missions because of the additional energy drain at each 1000 damage absorbed. On high level missions or on cap level Nyx loses all her energy bar and dies after two or three hits absorbed, while Revenant, at the same situation, with no mods at all, will remain at least 6 seconds invulnerable and will be able to recast Mesmer Skin as many times as he wants. The lost of mobility is just a little detail, the additional energy drain is what makes Assimilate useless at high level missions. I love Nyx and I use her very often (and very very often with the Assimilate "immortal" build), but at high level, Assimilate is much worse than shield gating.

Il y a 14 heures, DeadVoid118 a dit :

One of Valkyr's base abilities makes her invincible.

That's true and it's one of my favorites Valkyr modes. The problem here is the energy drain, that can be very high and also the fact that you'll be limitated to Melee only. Revenant has no energy drain and he can use all his arsenal without any limitations. No need to make any Helminth infusion, no need to make a specific build (you'll need these two things to be able to keep Valkyr's invulnerability) to have an immortal Revenant with very low energy cost.

Il y a 11 heures, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 a dit :

Valkyr can literally die by uncasting her invincible power when next to an enemy

This is not a problem as you can avoid the backlash by just aiming (going on primary or secondary) before uncasting Hysteria. This will remove the aura and prevent you from taking any damage. That's why I don't understand why the game keeps the backlash and, at the same time, gives us this very simple way to avoid it. The backlash is much more dangerous while fighting nullifiers.

Il y a 14 heures, DeadVoid118 a dit :

Zephyr is invincible so long as you press 2 buttons, one to float and one for her 3

Energy cost is much more important than Revenant's Mesmer Skin, this won't protect against every damage source : that's why you need to be in the air and renounce to use your melee. You will also lack mobility. I love to play Zephyr like this, but it's a legend that she is immortal by using this technique : she can avoid many damage sources, but no Sentient attack is avoided by this (just try it on Archon hunts and you'll see), the same goes for Acolytes and AoE. As for Nyx and Valkyr, you'll need a specific build to be able to benefit from this the best way as possible, but even an unmmodded Revenant is able to tank more than a well modded Zephyr and won't have to say goodbye to melee or to the ground and no sentient is a problem to him.

Il y a 14 heures, DeadVoid118 a dit :

I can just ignore the fact 90% DR tank frames like Nezha only need adaptation to be invincible

Nezha has never been invincible with Adaptation, except on low level missions. Even on medium level missions, the same ability that is supposed to protect him causes sometimes his death. I think it's a glitch, but no other "tank" ability, like Rhino's Iron Skin works like this.Nezha and Yareli protective abilities work almost the same, but both can still die.

The same will be true about Revenant with the OP fix proposition. By the way, some warframes can have even more damage reduction than Nezha : Nova with adaptation and Arcane Guardian can be much more tanky than Nezha, and everybody knows that she is not immortal at all.

Il y a 11 heures, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 a dit :

Theres a big difference between “effectively invincible” and “literally invincible”. Throwing Adaptation o Nezhas makes him very hard to kill. He is “effectively invincible”. But he can still die under certain circumstances even with adaptation maxed and a crap ton of Warding halo health. Revenant is literally invincible. You throw anything at him and he will not take damage, and you can throw that same thing at him endlessly and for 15 straight seconds he will not die. That is a problem.

I totally agree with GearsMatrix301. This is the real point : this is what many other players, me included, have noticed and said on this forum : even an unmodded Revenant tanks more than a well modded tanky frame.

To me and to the great majority of the players that have a similar opinion than GearsMatrix301, immortality, invulnerability are not a problem at all. What it costs to achieve it is the real problem. A warframe whose ability is much more efficient than Rolling Guard, with no mod equipped at all, and capable of casting his immortal ability as many times as he wants : this is the problem. This is what seems unbalanced to me.

Even Pablo said on last Devstream that the Mesmer Skin stacks were too powerful and that he was a bit affraid of the new augment Mod for Mesmer Skin that will be released with "Citrine's last wish". I may be wrong, but I think Mesmer Skin will be nerfed soon. Very bad they haven't changed the buff to make it apply only when Revenant is attacked by a CC immune enemy, because the future nerf can be too strong and destroy Mesmer Skin.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

4 hours ago, DeadVoid118 said:

Nyx can roll just like Ivara in Prowl or Mesa in her Waltz, Nyx has no actual trouble getting around.

I'ma be honest, it's not worth my time to search several pages just to find where you mentioned Zephyr's tradeoff, but I will state that there isn't really a tradeoff. You float in the air and have enough range (which Zephyr builds anyway, just like Rev wants to build power strength with or without Mesmer Skin) and nothing can kill you, not even AoE. Floating in the air is only necessary for melee enemies, which you don't need to mind when moving around, so really there is no drawback. You can even protect other things in range of your 3.

There really isn't. I've literally never died with Nezha, or Gara either (discounting nullification of abilities which kills Rev too). And they can last a lot longer than 15 straight seconds standing still.

I've used Nezha against everything. I've gone into the highest peaks of Steel Path and waited around for a while. He does not die, no boss can kill him, and the only thing that might would be level cap or waiting around long enough for his HP to reach 0 with Warding Halo up which has literally never happened to me (I think at some point it might've been tweaked to prevent death like Mesmer Skin? I've seen Nezha stuck at 40 HP with Halo up before while testing, but y'know how buggy things can be and it's really hard to get to the point where Nezha is that low in the first place, like you have to literally not do anything for a few minutes other than take shots to the face, which is significantly harder than Revenant).

You know who else can roll? Every other frame in the game. They also have full movement available to them.

I literally mention Zephyr in my OP.

Dude, I feel like you just came in here desperate to try and find some excuse for them not to nerf Mesmer skin without reading anything that came before. The ability is overtuned and if it’s going to exist with its current functionality it needs to be nerfed.

[Drasiel]

On 2023-02-03 at 6:23 AM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

<snip>

Mesa’s shatter shield does not give 100% damage negation. Therefor it’s long duration is not comparable to Mesmer Skins shorter duration as one only makes you harder to kill and the other makes you impossible to kill.

You missed the point. Mesa's shatter shield does not give 100% negation and it has a massive duration and damage reflection. If you want to cut down Rev's invulnerability (the two components creating what other people call invincibility were added explicitly because he was just unable to tank and dying constantly) you have to look at every other negative and positive compared to similar abilities too. You want 90% DR? Cool get rid of the charges and give it a duration as long as other DR abilities, but you know what side effect that will also have? He's going to take every status effect now so he'll need status immunity added too or he just loses one of the best parts of mesmer skin.

A lot of people don't know this because they weren't around to see original Iron skin and all it's changes. Original iron skin was a set duration of invulnerability. People managed to get the duration up pretty high and it was changed to only offer 80% DR. Now this revealed a flaw in some abilities that provide status immunity, because you were now taking damage rhino unintentionally lost his status immunity. Turns out a lot of status effects are tied to damage taken so because Rhino was now taking damage he was now taking status effects. You can actually still see this behaviour even with current ironskin. Iron skin's damage absorption phase "takes damage" so you get affected by status procs, which is easiest to see with knockdowns, staggers, and hooks, until your iron skin generates fully. Revenant's mesmer skin blocking damage and thus status effects also likely follows this behaviour. If you change it to DR you're suddenly going to make revenant vulnerable to all the status effects, unless that is considered with any changes.

Honestly I still don't see a huge problem with mesmer skin anyways because at least unlike the invisibility frames the AI doesn't just completely ignore him.

 

On 2023-02-03 at 4:33 PM, Tyreaus said:

I would say yes, for a few reasons:

1. Invisibility Warframes have to deal not just with Eximus abilities, but any form of cross-fire. Mesmer Skin has that (albeit small, as enemies seldom target invis players) leg up on invisibility.
2. If Eximus bypassed Mesmer Skin invulnerability, it would mean taking damage, which is the same as what happens with invisibility Warframes (minus status effects per latest adjustment). That means that nerf puts them on equal footing in that regard, and implies they aren't currently.

Number 1 yes cross fire is more of a concern but most invisibility frames also come with aggro control abilities. loki has decoy, octavia has mallet, wisp has wil-0-wisp, ivara has sleep arrow (noise arrow really should distract alerted enemies even if for only a few seconds) and ash just gets shafted. Revenant's thralls should technically fulfill this role but they can't in a multiplayer game because teammates can kill them and promptly do. So If there were changes to mesmer skin I think thralls would also need to actually survive other players so they can fulfill their role better.

The issue with number 2 is that while invisibility frames can take damage it's only by accident or bad location awareness since enemy AI can't target the invisible player unless they do something to alert them and then don't move out of the enemies "guess there is someone there try shooting?" zone. If Mesmer skin were bypassed by eximus abilities they would be far far more likely to hit him because they are able to aim at him.

On 2023-02-03 at 4:33 PM, Tyreaus said:

In solo play, yes, but in groups, squads can coordinate. We could also try making Overguard plane-agnostic, at least for Limbo, a sort of inverse to ability cross-over. It's one of those haphazardly-thought things I'd need to test and tweak to get a proper feel for what feels good and what exploits / shortcuts exist.

 

Squads can coordinate but pub groups don't always like to, call me pessimistic but I could see other players getting mad about "limbo eximus leachers" who won't kill an eximus themselves. Overguard being plane-agnostic would actually be interesting since eximus powers bypass the rift anyway, it would make a kind of sense too. This would however mean that Nox, those grineer spear throwers on the zariman, and anyone affected by an ancient healer would also have their overshield become plane-agnostic. Might not be an issue but I figured I'd point it out.

On 2023-02-03 at 4:33 PM, Tyreaus said:

Sometimes the answer to one problem comes up before the answer to another, even if the other is more important or more desired. And I don't think it's worth sitting around until the more important answer pops up. Waiting won't make it come any faster, so you may as well do something in the meantime. It's what got us the Grendel touch-up, and I think that was pretty well-received.

 

Besides, it's good motivation to get something ticked off, even if it isn't item number one.

Well the reason why I'm leery of another limbo rework/touch up is that he's had 3 that I remember and they have without fail made him both more annoying for other players to play with in one way while the previous way he was annoying was changed (not always removed... just changed). Since we are tending to get 1 maybe 2 reworks or adjustments to frames a year I'd really really prefer to fix frames that cannot be played past sedna without very niche builds than one that is playable but struggling only against eximus.

My current ranking for survival issues are:

• caliban, gyre, and hydroid which have much more severe survival issues than limbo
• Atlas and Inaros the one trick ponies who are most effectively used without any of their abilities.
• Then finally limbo and maybe vauban/Nyx, since vauban and Nyx (without assimilate) also relies mostly on CC to not die so they have probably been negatively affected too.

I'm not going to complain if they fix someone low on my list or completely unrelated because hey positive fixes are always good, I just would really like to see frames with less reworks under their belt see some love. Caliban, Gyre, and Inaros haven't had any major touch ups and Hydroid, Atlas, Vauban, and Nyx have only seen 1 each I believe.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 30 minutes, Drasiel a dit :

You missed the point. Mesa's shatter shield does not give 100% negation and it has a massive duration and damage reflection.

This is true, but this is also the weakness of Mesa's Shatter Shield : only projectile reflexion, no protection at all (not even a little damage reduction) against melee, and even with Mesa Waltz, the lack of mobility can be extremely dangerous to Mesa.

il y a 34 minutes, Drasiel a dit :

If you change it to DR you're suddenly going to make revenant vulnerable to all the status effects, unless that is considered with any changes.

This is a good point, but nothing prevents Mesmer Skin to give Revenant status immunity in a much better way than Iron Skin, as Mesmer Skin won't have a pool of HP scaling with incoming damage. And Rhino's Iron Skin problems seem much more like a glitch than like a normal behavior of the ability (just as Warding Halo lettting you be one shot).

il y a 39 minutes, Drasiel a dit :

because at least unlike the invisibility frames the AI doesn't just completely ignore him.

That makes Revenant even more efficient to kill. The problem with invisibility is that you can still die while invisible and you need to make enemies come to you or the place you want to kill them. I agree invisibility is the one of the best survivability options in the game, but it is not as good as Mesmer Skin : one just need to try it on Archon Hunts to see the great difference : AoE attacks, Eximus abilities (not all), you'll need silenced weapons or you will still take some hits, Sentients, Corpus ability negation is much more dangerous to invisible frames than to Revenant.

il y a 46 minutes, Drasiel a dit :

Number 1 yes cross fire is more of a concern but most invisibility frames also come with aggro control abilities. loki has decoy, octavia has mallet, wisp has wil-0-wisp, ivara has sleep arrow (noise arrow really should distract alerted enemies even if for only a few seconds) and ash just gets shafted. Revenant's thralls should technically fulfill this role but they can't in a multiplayer game because teammates can kill them and promptly do. So If there were changes to mesmer skin I think thralls would also need to actually survive other players so they can fulfill their role better.

The issue with number 2 is that while invisibility frames can take damage it's only by accident or bad location awareness since enemy AI can't target the invisible player unless they do something to alert them and then don't move out of the enemies "guess there is someone there try shooting?" zone. If Mesmer skin were bypassed by eximus abilities they would be far far more likely to hit him because they are able to aim at him.

I agree with most of what is said here, but my experience is very different : invisible frames are very fragile and even with CC can take damage easily : invisibility will only work nice if used together with shield gate. And CC for invisible frames is mostly to make enemies come near them, to have some efficiency on killing. No invisible frame can ignore every single damage source like Revenant with Mesmer Skin.

But I really agree that invisibility (mostly with shield gating) is extremely powerful.

il y a 54 minutes, Drasiel a dit :

Squads can coordinate but pub groups don't always like to, call me pessimistic but I could see other players getting mad about "limbo eximus leachers" who won't kill an eximus themselves.

Extremely true. I can also add : players that use specter to finish the mission for them. This bother me a lot. Yesterday, we got a Defense on Steel Path incursions and I decided to do this mission on a open squad : I got this four specters and a Khal team doing the mission. Defense, in my opinio, is a bit boring, but this way it was even worse. As I was using Oberon with the Augment for the 4th and full range, I got my revenge by spamming his 4th and creating a lot of circles light particles and fairy glitter : one of the "specter users" (that was just moving from time to time over the defense target) started to complain about the FX :"oh ! my eyes!" he said - this saved my mission - I got my revenge from these Afk players.😆

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Drasiel said:

You missed the point. Mesa's shatter shield does not give 100% negation and it has a massive duration and damage reflection. If you want to cut down Rev's invulnerability (the two components creating what other people call invincibility were added explicitly because he was just unable to tank and dying constantly) you have to look at every other negative and positive compared to similar abilities too. You want 90% DR? Cool get rid of the charges and give it a duration as long as other DR abilities, but you know what side effect that will also have? He's going to take every status effect now so he'll need status immunity added too or he just loses one of the best parts of mesmer skin.

A lot of people don't know this because they weren't around to see original Iron skin and all it's changes. Original iron skin was a set duration of invulnerability. People managed to get the duration up pretty high and it was changed to only offer 80% DR. Now this revealed a flaw in some abilities that provide status immunity, because you were now taking damage rhino unintentionally lost his status immunity. Turns out a lot of status effects are tied to damage taken so because Rhino was now taking damage he was now taking status effects. You can actually still see this behaviour even with current ironskin. Iron skin's damage absorption phase "takes damage" so you get affected by status procs, which is easiest to see with knockdowns, staggers, and hooks, until your iron skin generates fully. Revenant's mesmer skin blocking damage and thus status effects also likely follows this behaviour. If you change it to DR you're suddenly going to make revenant vulnerable to all the status effects, unless that is considered with any changes.

Honestly I still don't see a huge problem with mesmer skin anyways because at least unlike the invisibility frames the AI doesn't just completely ignore him.

 

Number 1 yes cross fire is more of a concern but most invisibility frames also come with aggro control abilities. loki has decoy, octavia has mallet, wisp has wil-0-wisp, ivara has sleep arrow (noise arrow really should distract alerted enemies even if for only a few seconds) and ash just gets shafted. Revenant's thralls should technically fulfill this role but they can't in a multiplayer game because teammates can kill them and promptly do. So If there were changes to mesmer skin I think thralls would also need to actually survive other players so they can fulfill their role better.

The issue with number 2 is that while invisibility frames can take damage it's only by accident or bad location awareness since enemy AI can't target the invisible player unless they do something to alert them and then don't move out of the enemies "guess there is someone there try shooting?" zone. If Mesmer skin were bypassed by eximus abilities they would be far far more likely to hit him because they are able to aim at him.

Squads can coordinate but pub groups don't always like to, call me pessimistic but I could see other players getting mad about "limbo eximus leachers" who won't kill an eximus themselves. Overguard being plane-agnostic would actually be interesting since eximus powers bypass the rift anyway, it would make a kind of sense too. This would however mean that Nox, those grineer spear throwers on the zariman, and anyone affected by an ancient healer would also have their overshield become plane-agnostic. Might not be an issue but I figured I'd point it out.

Well the reason why I'm leery of another limbo rework/touch up is that he's had 3 that I remember and they have without fail made him both more annoying for other players to play with in one way while the previous way he was annoying was changed (not always removed... just changed). Since we are tending to get 1 maybe 2 reworks or adjustments to frames a year I'd really really prefer to fix frames that cannot be played past sedna without very niche builds than one that is playable but struggling only against eximus.

My current ranking for survival issues are:

• caliban, gyre, and hydroid which have much more severe survival issues than limbo
• Atlas and Inaros the one trick ponies who are most effectively used without any of their abilities.
• Then finally limbo and maybe vauban/Nyx, since vauban and Nyx (without assimilate) also relies mostly on CC to not die so they have probably been negatively affected too.

I'm not going to complain if they fix someone low on my list or completely unrelated because hey positive fixes are always good, I just would really like to see frames with less reworks under their belt see some love. Caliban, Gyre, and Inaros haven't had any major touch ups and Hydroid, Atlas, Vauban, and Nyx have only seen 1 each I believe.

Mesmer skin already has status immunity. So it’s not a very good reason to keep a frame literally unkillable for 15 seconds with no drawbacks.

[Tiltskillet]

6 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

No invisible frame can ignore every single damage source like Revenant with Mesmer Skin.

Depends on what you mean by "like".  :P  I'd consider Safeguard Switch Tele Loki  pretty close in end result, but the process isn't similar at all.

 

[AegidiusF]

il y a 7 minutes, Tiltskillet a dit :

Depends on what you mean by "like".  :P  I'd consider Safeguard Switch Tele Loki  pretty close in end result, but the process isn't similar at all.

 

Yes, you're right, my friend, as always. 

I agree with Loki's Safeguard Switch and how it is powerful and awesome (and much easier to use than some other similar augments like the one for Garuda's 1st).

But as we said before these frames need an augment mod and some duration mods. Revenant don't even need this. 

[Tyreaus]

8 hours ago, Drasiel said:

Number 1 yes cross fire is more of a concern but most invisibility frames also come with aggro control abilities. loki has decoy, octavia has mallet, wisp has wil-0-wisp, ivara has sleep arrow (noise arrow really should distract alerted enemies even if for only a few seconds) and ash just gets shafted. Revenant's thralls should technically fulfill this role but they can't in a multiplayer game because teammates can kill them and promptly do. So If there were changes to mesmer skin I think thralls would also need to actually survive other players so they can fulfill their role better.

I agree that thralls should be fixed. I'd go so far to say they should be fixed whether or not Mesmer Skin is changed. IIRC they remain the only "mind control" / friendly unit susceptible to friendly fire. That's kind of weird any way you look at it.

(Speaking also as one who, on a not-infrequent basis, shoots an enemy then discovers it was the Revenant's thrall. I still feel bad even thinking about that.)

8 hours ago, Drasiel said:

The issue with number 2 is that while invisibility frames can take damage it's only by accident or bad location awareness since enemy AI can't target the invisible player unless they do something to alert them and then don't move out of the enemies "guess there is someone there try shooting?" zone. If Mesmer skin were bypassed by eximus abilities they would be far far more likely to hit him because they are able to aim at him.

To reiterate, while invisible players can only take damage by accident, that includes any damage, including DoTs. Particularly relevant in squads, especially against Arson eximus. (I play Loki a lot, believe me, I know that pain much too well.) For Revenant, it would be only Eximus abilities. It's a trade-off: Revenant needs to only worry about Eximus abilities, but is always targeted, so has to worry about them more often; invisibility players have to worry about any damage, but have an easier time handling it due to sporadic targeting. Toss in fixing thralls to distract incoming fire and it seems pretty equitable.

8 hours ago, Drasiel said:

Squads can coordinate but pub groups don't always like to, call me pessimistic but I could see other players getting mad about "limbo eximus leachers" who won't kill an eximus themselves. Overguard being plane-agnostic would actually be interesting since eximus powers bypass the rift anyway, it would make a kind of sense too. This would however mean that Nox, those grineer spear throwers on the zariman, and anyone affected by an ancient healer would also have their overshield become plane-agnostic. Might not be an issue but I figured I'd point it out.

Fair, I've seen complaints on Limbo hogging enemies or forgetting targets are in the Rift, well before any eximus changes. It's a problematic Warframe in incompetent hands, however you mix in the overguard situation.

I don't think there's a problem with non-eximus overguarded enemies sharing that behaviour. After all, the interaction issue is with overguard in general, not eximus in particular.

8 hours ago, Drasiel said:

I'm not going to complain if they fix someone low on my list or completely unrelated because hey positive fixes are always good, I just would really like to see frames with less reworks under their belt see some love. Caliban, Gyre, and Inaros haven't had any major touch ups and Hydroid, Atlas, Vauban, and Nyx have only seen 1 each I believe.

On the bright side, I believe Inaros is being looked at soon. At least I've heard some rumours about that.

[DeadVoid118]

19 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

You know who else can roll? Every other frame in the game. They also have full movement available to them.

There are quite a few abilities that lack aspects of movement. I don't see your point, not all abilities are equal.

19 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

I literally mention Zephyr in my OP.

Yeah, and you talk about not getting double-tapped, which doesn't mean anything to me? Zephyr can't be shot, she can float for practically forever especially with certain builds that allow her to generate energy constantly, and there's nothing that can "double-tap" her? Not even AoE hits her when she's got a modicum of range in her build. Are you talking about when she's recasting? Oh look, some nice casting speed fixes that issue and it's weird how that seems oddly similar to Mesmer Skin.

19 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Dude, I feel like you just came in here desperate to try and find some excuse for them not to nerf Mesmer skin without reading anything that came before. The ability is overtuned and if it’s going to exist with its current functionality it needs to be nerfed.

Let's not argue in bad faith.

Mesmer Skin is not in anyway overtuned from my viewpoint, and you have yet to prove that it is. Surviving is easy, someone has to be the best at it anyway. That happens to be Revenant, but not by much. Plenty of frames have no issue surviving anywhere below level cap, and I see no reason to balance around level cap. Revenant is not a particularly strong frame outside of level cap, there's no reason to weaken Mesmer Skin and him.

[DeadVoid118]

23 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Nope. There are many differences between Nyx invulnerability and Revenant invulnerability :

=> Nyx needs an Augment Mod and a specific build to be able to use Assimilate to stay invulnerable and even with a very good build it will only last longer than Revenant's Mesmer Skin on low level or medium level missions because of the additional energy drain at each 1000 damage absorbed. On high level missions or on cap level Nyx loses all her energy bar and dies after two or three hits absorbed, while Revenant, at the same situation, with no mods at all, will remain at least 6 seconds invulnerable and will be able to recast Mesmer Skin as many times as he wants. The lost of mobility is just a little detail, the additional energy drain is what makes Assimilate useless at high level missions. I love Nyx and I use her very often (and very very often with the Assimilate "immortal" build), but at high level, Assimilate is much worse than shield gating.

Valid.

23 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

That's true and it's one of my favorites Valkyr modes. The problem here is the energy drain, that can be very high and also the fact that you'll be limitated to Melee only. Revenant has no energy drain and he can use all his arsenal without any limitations. No need to make any Helminth infusion, no need to make a specific build (you'll need these two things to be able to keep Valkyr's invulnerability) to have an immortal Revenant with very low energy cost.

I don't think it's much of a problem, especially with the release of archon shards which can allow her to stack enough benefit from energy orbs to be immortal forever, and even standing still flow + efficiency/duration will ensure she lasts for a few minutes.

Revenant needs casting speed to not be vulnerable while recasting, and he needs power strength to not have to constantly recast. At base level, Mesmer Skin is pretty crap of an ability, it's just much easier to get into working form than other abilities of the same variety which I think is fair and valid. Survivability is easy, and Revenant being the best at it is alright, he's not that much better than a lot of frames outside of level cap.

23 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Energy cost is much more important than Revenant's Mesmer Skin, this won't protect against every damage source : that's why you need to be in the air and renounce to use your melee. You will also lack mobility. I love to play Zephyr like this, but it's a legend that she is immortal by using this technique : she can avoid many damage sources, but no Sentient attack is avoided by this (just try it on Archon hunts and you'll see), the same goes for Acolytes and AoE. As for Nyx and Valkyr, you'll need a specific build to be able to benefit from this the best way as possible, but even an unmmodded Revenant is able to tank more than a well modded Zephyr and won't have to say goodbye to melee or to the ground and no sentient is a problem to him.

Actually, Zephyr is functionally immortal against AoE and acolytes (barring when they nullify your powers which gets Rev too). AoE can't get Zephyr if you build enough range, which Zephyr builds anyway for literally all her abilities except her 1 (and even her 1 still likes range for any offensive use).

Again, keep in mind that an unmodded Revenant is only invincible for so long, and recasting leaves him highly vulnerable. He's not the tank he is when he's modded, just like most frames.

23 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Nezha has never been invincible with Adaptation, except on low level missions. Even on medium level missions, the same ability that is supposed to protect him causes sometimes his death. I think it's a glitch, but no other "tank" ability, like Rhino's Iron Skin works like this.Nezha and Yareli protective abilities work almost the same, but both can still die.

Nezha has always been invincible with Adaptation? I don't know what you're talking about, but I actively use Nezha, like literally in sortie today or Archon Hunt yesterday, and steel path missions all week. I never die. I don't know if the damage leaks through, but if it does it's not enough to kill the man. I also don't know how it leaks through or calculates that, isn't he temporarily invincible once Warding Halo expires? It at least hasn't been an issue for me since around August when I started playing him again.

On 2023-02-06 at 4:05 PM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

The same will be true about Revenant with the OP fix proposition. By the way, some warframes can have even more damage reduction than Nezha : Nova with adaptation and Arcane Guardian can be much more tanky than Nezha, and everybody knows that she is not immortal at all.

Only on technicality, in practice Nova will have a significantly harder time keeping Null Star at 95%. I do also take Nova into Steel Path/Archon (curse you defense missions) and she's less tanky because Null Star is constantly losing charges if enemies get too close, and on Speedva who wants Overextended that's really easy even after you slot in Narrow Minded. On Slowva she's tankier, but also she's slowing every non-eximus enemy down to a crawl so it's not really significant. Keep in mind I'm using the augment that refreshes Null Star on kills affected by her 4, but survivability cares a lot about consistency, and dropping to 50% dmg reduction from 95% is super bad for not dying even if it's only ten seconds out of thirty minutes.

On 2023-02-06 at 4:05 PM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

I totally agree with GearsMatrix301. This is the real point : this is what many other players, me included, have noticed and said on this forum : even an unmodded Revenant tanks more than a well modded tanky frame.

To me and to the great majority of the players that have a similar opinion than GearsMatrix301, immortality, invulnerability are not a problem at all. What it costs to achieve it is the real problem. A warframe whose ability is much more efficient than Rolling Guard, with no mod equipped at all, and capable of casting his immortal ability as many times as he wants : this is the problem. This is what seems unbalanced to me.

Even Pablo said on last Devstream that the Mesmer Skin stacks were too powerful and that he was a bit affraid of the new augment Mod for Mesmer Skin that will be released with "Citrine's last wish". I may be wrong, but I think Mesmer Skin will be nerfed soon. Very bad they haven't changed the buff to make it apply only when Revenant is attacked by a CC immune enemy, because the future nerf can be too strong and destroy Mesmer Skin.

I disagree. Revenant's only really known for his tankiness, it's what he's good at specifically, and that's perfectly fine. Rhino gets Roar, Nezha has Blazing Chakram + Speed. Revenant gets the best tank ability in the game, which in my opinion is not that significant. Heck, I will openly admit Revenant is my favorite frame, but not due to Mesmer Skin. I enjoy his 1-3 combo (and just his 1, I like mind control) and using his 4, I even have Roar subsumed on his 1 on one build to boost his 4's damage. Neither of those things are particularly powerful, his 4 is middling at best and struggles in Steel Path even with Roar, and his 1-3 combo isn't very quick compared to just using a well-modded gun (and you have to build a ton of power strength) even when you have Nyx's subsume on Rev to create a thrall that eternally spreads Rev's mind control. His other abilities at their best are okay. That's pretty similar to other frames that have one really good ability and the rest are okay.

Somebody gets to be the best tank, and that's Revenant. That's perfectly fine. It's not as good as people try to make it out to be, and before Revenant's buff nobody played him. Even I, who loves his kit and loved it prior to and after Overguard, had a ton of trouble playing him because he just didn't have any survivability. Even if/when you could get him to survive, his other abilities were still only okay so you wouldn't play him unless you liked his abilities. Now he actually has a niche, and I approve. Nerfing Mesmer Skin to make it exactly as boring and samey as the rest of the damage reduction abilities does nothing but return Revenant to 'meh, I guess he's a thing you can play', especially since he now has to fit survivability mods in on top of casting speed and the ton of power strength he needs for his other abilities to combo well.

But I can offer something of an alternative. You don't like that Revenant can survive well unmodded and I think that's... well, I don't think it's much of an issue since it helps newbies who don't understand modding to have somebody they can rely on and doesn't hurt anyone else (and newbies would still be vulnerable during recasting), but if we want to bring Revenant in-line then we can just make it so Mesmer Skin (and it's currently-invincible period) reduces damage by a percentage, capped at 100% but starting at whatever number, say 75%. That way modding is needed to make Revenant what he is now without reducing where he currently sits.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

59 minutes ago, DeadVoid118 said:

Let's not argue in bad faith.

 

Ok so you are 100% trying to prevent Mesmer Skin from getting nerfed. Despite none of your arguments holding strong enough ground to justify it.

You wouldn’t be saying that otherwise.

[Champagne_23]

45 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Ok so you are 100% trying to prevent Mesmer Skin from getting nerfed. Despite none of your arguments holding strong enough ground to justify it.

You wouldn’t be saying that otherwise.

Who do you think you're doing a favor to with this topic?

Did you even play revenant before being primed?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

20 minutes ago, Champagne_23 said:

Who do you think you're doing a favor to with this topic?

Did you even play revenant before being primed?

Hi, I’m Gears. This must be our first time meeting. I’m Warframes #1 Revenant hater. While I don’t play him I have gotten in more than enough arguments about him to have more knowledge on him than most people that play him.

As for who this is favoring? All the other tank frames. As it doesn’t make sense to have a tank ability that functions so out of line than what has been made for years prior. And his upcoming augment may very well render any and all tanking obsolete to any tank frame in a squad with a Revenant. So I’m favoring balance.

[Shafara.F]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

And his upcoming augment may very well render any and all tanking obsolete to any tank frame in a squad with a Revenant.

Whats wrong having 2 or 3 tank in 1 group? You we're talking as if theres always 4 rev in every endless mission out there.
Why bring rev in a short mission? You want it to end fast, that shield is useless
Why bring him in a long mission? You need damage and Rev lack one, that shield cant absorb AoE, beam damage

Not in the top 5 most used warframe? Dont care.
If you somehow rework mesmer skin, DE just gonna give it to another new warframe with different name.
Is there a video somewhere you solo survive 20min/round steel path without shooting once with unmodded Rev without any effort? 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

13 minutes ago, Shafarah said:

Whats wrong having 2 or 3 tank in 1 group? You we're talking as if theres always 4 rev in every endless mission out there.
Why bring rev in a short mission? You want it to end fast, that shield is useless
Why bring him in a long mission? You need damage and Rev lack one, that shield cant absorb AoE, beam damage

Not in the top 5 most used warframe? Dont care.
If you somehow rework mesmer skin, DE just gonna give it to another new warframe with different name.
Is there a video somewhere you solo survive 20min/round steel path without shooting once with unmodded Rev without any effort? 

You don’t know what his augments going to do, do you? It gives other players a set number of mesmer charges. Thats going to render the tank abilities of of other frames redundant because Revenant will literally just be giving out his overtuned tank ability for free.

[Shafara.F]

26 minutes ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

You don’t know what his augments going to do, do you? It gives other players a set number of mesmer charges. Thats going to render the tank abilities of of other frames redundant because Revenant will literally just be giving out his overtuned tank ability for free.

Yes I know, My Rev usage is 81.2%
And you just assume 100% of Rev gonna use this? He already did this before the augment exist.
Even with that augment, he still just a tank, thats it, trying to build more than a tank is useless for him. He rely alot on weapon to do damage.
And he doesnt have anything to boost weapon damage like other tank.
Most player use this frame only for solo purposed.
Most Revenant Prime I've seen in public is either its their favorite warframe (high usage) or a leveling one. Never 'its because its the best for that mission type' reason.
The most useful mission type for him that i can think of is probably interception. The rest he just there doing damage with weapons.

And no its not gonna render other tank useless. Players rather see big number absorb damage than constantly having to look at lower right for stack amount.

[(XBOX)GodMasterTP]

On 2023-02-01 at 6:23 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

So with the recent changes and upcoming augment to Mesmer skins every bodies been talking about how absolutely busted the ability is. And they’re all completely right. The way it is now, Mesmer Skin completely breaks the rules of how other abilities that grant invincibility work.

Examples:

Gauss: You have to work for it and even then it only works for half the damage types in the game.

Baruuk: his 1 only makes you unkillable when you’re not attacking.

Limbo: the rift makes you untouchable to enemies but you can’t hurt them unless you bring them into the rift.

Zephyr: You’re pretty much putting faith into you not getting double tapped.

Rhino: You have to build up iron skins value, and the builds that do that usually leave Rhino himself squishy.

Old Defy: increasing energy cost every time you died.

What is Mesmer Skin? 100% damage negation for a set number of charges all of which have a one second grace period before the next one will be used up. Meaning that the number of charges Mesmer Skin has is the bare minimum number of seconds Revenant has to be completely invincible. And there is zero trade off for it. All the other abilities that give some form of invincibility to the frame has some mechanical trade off to keep them from being blatantly over powered. But Mesmer Skin gets on average like 15 seconds of making you unkillable because there’s no reason to build Rev for anything other than ability strength. And the fact that it’s now being given the other frames via the new augment makes those frames tank abilities redundant.

This needs to change. Now normally I would say just flat out replace Mesmer Skin with a completely new tank ability that actually aligns with Eidolon sentient powers etc etc. But I know DE’s not going to do that. So I suggest a much simpler and easier to do fix.

Reduce Mesmer Skins Damage Negation down to 90% Damage Reduction.

You can still tank with it but this way it’ll be more in line with the other 90% tank abilities, which typically have far lower or no trade offs, as opposed to being literally invincible with no trade offs.

Man, at this point you're probably the only dude who complains about Revenant. Literally nobody gave a flying fu©k about Revenant being invincible. I'd bet my a$$ on this one that, if it weren't for you claiming that this is a problem, nobody would even bat an eye on this, because it doesn't really break the game. Actually, more Warframes should have access to damage invulnerability like Revenant. 

Having to rely on shield gate, which is a TRASH mechanic btw, is just too nauseating for something chaotic like Warframe. 

Now, tell me, how the hell does Revenant break the game? If it weren't for Helminth, the only thing he would have going for him is his invincibility, nothing else. The problem is not on Revenant being invincible, is on the helminth system that enables all Warframes to have busted damage abilities (like Roar, Breach Surge, Xata's Whisper, Eclipse, etc). 

Revenant shouldn't be nerfed, all the other frames should be brought to his level. And that's obvious when you look at the fundamentals of the system: 

1) Most Warframes are literally INVINCIBLE at even the highest level required for a content, which is usually 150-180 Steelpath. Inaros is invincible as long as you have any form of health regen, that also goes for Nezha, Rhino, Chroma, etc. They are invincible at the highest lvl of content. 

 

2) They only stop being invincible when enemies become way too strong, at level 250+. But, there's no content at this level, by the time you reach that you're like 2h deep into a mission, you'd be better by just going out and restarting, with the exception of fissures (but these only matter at long runs if you're stacking traces, which cap anyway, you're also getting much more traces by just spamming capture anyways). 

 

Therefore, by only using these 2 points, I already made it very clear that the problem is everything else, not Revenant.

 

 

[Drasiel]

15 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

This is true, but this is also the weakness of Mesa's Shatter Shield : only projectile reflexion, no protection at all (not even a little damage reduction) against melee, and even with Mesa Waltz, the lack of mobility can be extremely dangerous to Mesa.

Shatter shield doesn't decrease mobility at all though? Are you thinking of when she's casting peacemaker? that's the only mobility penalty I'm aware of although I think rather than being a concern of shatter shield it's an issue with older rooting skills not having a quick escape. Really if you are locked in place by your own ability you should be able to roll to cancel or the "revert" animation from casting the ability again should be so much faster. Peace maker predates the increase in volume and spawn speed of enemies and it's slow exit wasn't as much as a threat as it is nowadays.

15 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

This is a good point, but nothing prevents Mesmer Skin to give Revenant status immunity in a much better way than Iron Skin, as Mesmer Skin won't have a pool of HP scaling with incoming damage. And Rhino's Iron Skin problems seem much more like a glitch than like a normal behavior of the ability (just as Warding Halo lettting you be one shot).

Oh I'm not saying anything prevents it from being added just that it needs to be considered with any other changes. I used rhino because his old ability was the most similar to the way mesmer skin is kind of working right now and the effects of changing rhino to DR without considering status effects would affect revenant in the same manner.

So nezha's warding halo used to behave the exact same way as Rhino's ironskin during chargeup however it seems that at some point DE corrected this issue although I don't remember seeing it in the patch notes. My theory is this probably happened when the eximus changes went in because Rhino now appears to be immune to knockdown and staggers during the damage absorption phase, as is Nezha, only eximus effects bypass it. This makes it much more likely that full status immunity won't be a difficult thing to add to revenant due to DR changes which is great.

Oneshots from halo are definitely a bug since you have a 1 second grace period of invulnerability on halo breaking no damage should carry through. The only other thing might be taking a high damage status effect right after the invulnerability period and not recasting halo before it ticks but that's super hard to replicate on purpose.

15 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

That makes Revenant even more efficient to kill. The problem with invisibility is that you can still die while invisible and you need to make enemies come to you or the place you want to kill them. I agree invisibility is the one of the best survivability options in the game, but it is not as good as Mesmer Skin : one just need to try it on Archon Hunts to see the great difference : AoE attacks, Eximus abilities (not all), you'll need silenced weapons or you will still take some hits, Sentients, Corpus ability negation is much more dangerous to invisible frames than to Revenant.

I agree with most of what is said here, but my experience is very different : invisible frames are very fragile and even with CC can take damage easily : invisibility will only work nice if used together with shield gate. And CC for invisible frames is mostly to make enemies come near them, to have some efficiency on killing. No invisible frame can ignore every single damage source like Revenant with Mesmer Skin.

But I really agree that invisibility (mostly with shield gating) is extremely powerful.

Hmm well, most invisibility frames have methods of hate control exactly for bringing enemies to them and to help avoid cross fire from ally locations by changing enemy aggro focus so I don't think it's as big of a detriment as people like to make it out to be. Especially when you could for years effectively use loki's decoy to defend a defense objective with and without allies in place of frost snow globe, nyx's chaos or bastille spam. You can't do it now but only because incoming damage out scaled it's static health but that's a different compounding issue.

I will agree that in a public setting Mesmer skin is stronger but in a solo setting invisibility is at the very least equivalent and arguably better due to side benefits unrelated to survival.

AOE attacks are a problem in public games for sure but revenant doesn't just ignore them, if he is hit by AOE it still costs a charge if you don't get out of the AOE before the grace period it will continue to cost charges. Yes he's less affected but there is still an effect and it really bugs me how people keep saying there's no consequence at all. All of the eximus abilities can be avoided (even the fire blast, you just have to roll before it hits you) and in most cases the aggro control abilities that a invisibility frame has will prevent them from being aimed at you at all even indirectly.  Please don't disregard this as me being pendantic but CC is not the same as Aggro control, and if you are treating them the same in game you are missing out on how obnoxiously strong aggro control abilities are. Crowd control prevents action or restricts it in some manner like a slow from molecular prime or a freezing situation like bastille, stompe etc; aggro control redirects enemy attention without preventing anything. This is important because while CC doesn't work on enemies within a nullifer bubble or enemies with overguard, aggro control does. Give it a try with loki's decoy or octavias mallet, you'll be pleasantry surprised.

I don't see needing to use a silence mods which can be put in the exilus slot, using an augment, or using melee (including it's ranged melee counterparts which are also silent) as a huge negative to prevent enemies shooting you although that might just be because I started playing before silence mods existed and silent weapons or non ranged melee were your only choices (glaive didn't even exist yet lol).

Nullifiers being more danger to invisible frames has far less to do with mesmer skin being strong and far more with how invisibility frames just have less effective health in general. Revenant has 75 more health than loki or ivara but the same as Octavia and wisp and 150 less than ash. He has the same armour as the prime versions of loki, ivara, octavia, and 50 less than ash and wisp. His only outstanding feature is his shields and apparently the 750 his prime gets are making a huge difference. Cutting down revenants shields or buffing the invisibility frames shields wouldn't be unreasonable to balance that discrepancy. A nullifier can still result in death for revenant as it completely strips mesmer skin the same as it does for invisibility.

Invisibility is quite powerful beyond just shield gating, proper use of the aggro redirection abilities even in public matches makes taking accidental damage very unlikely. Most invisibility frames can't ignore damage but they can change where the damage is aimed.

 

19 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Mesmer skin already has status immunity. So it’s not a very good reason to keep a frame literally unkillable for 15 seconds with no drawbacks.

Okay let me make this simpler so you can understand what I tried to explain.

1. Duration based iron skin granted status immunity due to you not taking the damage that would trigger a status effect.
2. This is currently the same way it works for Revenant, he does not take the damage and so cannot take the status effect.
3. When iron skin was changed to duration with 80% DR he took status effects because the damage wasn't prevented.
4. If you change revenant to DR and change nothing else he will lose his immunity to status effects.

*pinches bridge of nose* you need to slow down and read the words I'm using and not what you assume my intentions are. Here:

20 hours ago, Drasiel said:

You want 90% DR? Cool get rid of the charges and give it a duration as long as other DR abilities, but you know what side effect that will also have? He's going to take every status effect now so he'll need status immunity added too or he just loses one of the best parts of mesmer skin.

You've suggested the ability be changed to 90% DR that is the only change you've suggested. This is me adding on that if you want it to become a DR ability then other things need to change as well to make it fair and not accidentally far weaker than it currently is. This is me offering information on you're proposed change that I don't think you are aware of or considered, not me saying these are reasons not to make the change.

I still don't think it needs to change but if it does change to DR I want to make sure the performance reduction is not also compounded by losing status immunity because it was overlooked or being shackled with a far too short of a duration due to the duration not being adjusted from how the ability used to work to how it works now.

 

7 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

I agree that thralls should be fixed. I'd go so far to say they should be fixed whether or not Mesmer Skin is changed. IIRC they remain the only "mind control" / friendly unit susceptible to friendly fire. That's kind of weird any way you look at it.

(Speaking also as one who, on a not-infrequent basis, shoots an enemy then discovers it was the Revenant's thrall. I still feel bad even thinking about that.)

To reiterate, while invisible players can only take damage by accident, that includes any damage, including DoTs. Particularly relevant in squads, especially against Arson eximus. (I play Loki a lot, believe me, I know that pain much too well.) For Revenant, it would be only Eximus abilities. It's a trade-off: Revenant needs to only worry about Eximus abilities, but is always targeted, so has to worry about them more often; invisibility players have to worry about any damage, but have an easier time handling it due to sporadic targeting. Toss in fixing thralls to distract incoming fire and it seems pretty equitable.

Fair, I've seen complaints on Limbo hogging enemies or forgetting targets are in the Rift, well before any eximus changes. It's a problematic Warframe in incompetent hands, however you mix in the overguard situation.

I don't think there's a problem with non-eximus overguarded enemies sharing that behaviour. After all, the interaction issue is with overguard in general, not eximus in particular.

On the bright side, I believe Inaros is being looked at soon. At least I've heard some rumours about that.

Heck sometimes I, as revenant, kill my own thralls because it can be really hard to see the floating rocks.

Did you know that you can dodge all effects of fire eximus's special attack by rolling: damage, knockdown, and even the proc. Invsibility players do have to worry about damage but I'm really starting to wonder are players nowadays not using the aggro redirection abilities to not take damage? The aggro redirection methods work through nullifier bubbles and through overguard. Not all are equal and the oldest need touchups but they make a huge difference in avoiding damage.

I suppose the main reason I dislike eximus abilities ignoring mesmer skin is because when people say he ignores them that's not accurate, he still takes the hit to his mesmer skin charges. Due to the sentiment that using up charges isn't a negative because of the grace of period it feels like it leads into territory where people would go "eximus abilities should bypass other abilities that grant that kind of protection like:  hysteria, or any of the other abilities that grant temporary invulnerability, or heck why does iron skin block the damage and the proc from eximus abilities that's not fair". I know "the slippery slope" is a fallacy but this issue is annoyingly complex because you've got a charge system that ends up behaving like a duration, and different generations of defences that all work slightly differently against eximus special attacks and there isn't enough cohesion between what is protected against and what isn't and who gets affected by eximus and who isn't. Frames with general DR still get their full defense against eximus, older frames with specific use case DR take all the damage, Damage transfer defences seem wonky in how they behave they might still be providing the DR portion but they don't seem to protect from the status effects, Extra Health bar defences block procs from the eximus while taking the damage to the extra health bar, Frames with dodge/repelling defensive abilities don't seem to have any effect against eximus special abilities.

You know mesmer skin might have been the kickoff to this but I think there's a bigger issue lurking under the surface, we don't have a consistent mechanic of what eximus abilities are supposed to affect. It's all over the map and how DE wants Eximus to affect defensive powers actually needs to be resolved into a more standardized system. I also think that some defences providing no defence at all to eximus needs to be reviewed.

oh hey inaros, cool. Hopefully at the very least they make sandstorm not terrible :D