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  • 4
_Aahz

[Explained] Damage 2.0 Builds, With Cheatsheets!

Question

_Aahz    614

Okay, first and most important thing to realize:

  • Do NOT compare the new damage system to old damage system. It is completely different and you're just going to confuse yourself trying to somehow translate new mechanics into the old stuff.

Scott/Grineeer tried to explain it in the livestreams, and DERebecca tried to explain more in the forum, but the great majority of people who logged into U11 were completely confused. So start from scratch, forget the old damage/enemy/weapon system, and realize everything is going to be okay. Now onto some explanations... (btw, TL:DR, pics at the bottom to tell you how to build your weapons, if you don't care about the mechanics).

MblYCuA.png

Info in next spoiler is outdated according to 11.3.2/11.3.3 update. There is currently no rational explanation, or simple way of explaining, damage 2.0 according to Update 11.3.x. Check back later when they've settled on... idk... whatever they're trying to do.


Physical Damage
We have 3 physical damage types that (almost) all weapons have, in different amounts. Here they are:

  • Impact - Most effective on shields
  • Puncture - Most effective on armor
  • Slash - Most effective on health/flesh (non-robotic)

That seems simple enough, right? Well, those of you who have been enjoying Pokemon Snap in space, if you check the enemies in your Wardex (Codex), you may notice:

  • Corpus - Have health and shields, but NO armor
  • Grineer - Have health and armor, but NO shields
  • Infested - Have health, but NO armor OR shields

Using those 2 key pieces of knowledge about damage types and enemy types, you should now be able to look at your weapons properly. Let's take a few examples, starting with the loudest complaint: Soma
MjOpCd3.png
Using what you just learned about damage types, you SHOULD be able to see that this is probably never going to be a good weapon to use against high level Corpus. Why? Because Corpus rely on heavy shields which are weak to impact damage, of which Soma sadly has little to begin with. Soma is fairly even on puncture and slash however, with high crit. This means you should boost your puncture/slash damage, slap on some crit mods, and you'll be able to destroy Grineer and Infested. Soma is now most efficient and effective against Grineer and Infested, so stop taking it into missions against Corpus and expecting miracles.

R2ZFOkj.jpg
So now looking at the Boar, out of the 3 physical damages, it has high impact and medium slash damage. Judging from that alone, your most beneficial build will be as an anti-Corpus weapon, because Corpus shields are weak against impact damage, and Crewmen's health is weak to Slash. Also, the extra slash damage Boar has is nice, because when elemental damages are calculated, they're based on the percentage of your total physical damage (Impact + Puncture + Slash). So it may be worthwhile to boost Boar's slash damage as well.

3GjUIoW.png
Despair has a large chunk of base puncture damage, which is most effective on armor. The proper build here would be focusing on boosting puncture, slapping on a max No Return mod for +60% puncture damage. Why not use a max Razor Shot mod too, so I can boost Slash damage by 60%? Well, look at the math:

  • Base puncture damage * 60% is equal to 44 * 1.6 = 70.4 damage
  • Base slash damage * 60% is equal to 8.2 * 1.6 = 13.12 damage... kinda feels like you wasted power points by using this mod for an extra ~5 damage, huh?

Here's a quick cheat sheet for determining builds at a glance (Updated for 11.0.7):
5W8yb5u.png



Elemental Damage
There are 10 possible elemental types, but that doesn't mean you should use all of them at once. Just like with the physical damage types, some elemental types are more useful on certain weapons than others. Here's a quick overview of what they are and how they combine:
uqSxITt.png
Well, if you played with the old damage system, you know Corpus shields are weak against Cold, and they can be stunned by Electricity if they don't have shields up. Infested have resistance to electricity, but are particularly weak to Heat. Grineer are really tough, but Corrosive causes heavy damage to their thick armor, leaving the exposed flesh open to Heat, Viral, and Blast damage.

The number one rule with Damage 2.0 is:

  • Use the right tool for the job, and compliment your weapon's base stats.

Learn to think of your weapons as anti-Corpus, anti-Grineer, or anti-Infested. When you start viewing it like that, it becomes completely obvious that you need to use an elemental that Corpus are weak against on your anti-Corpus weapon. If you've got a high puncture weapon, you're going to want the Corrosive element as well, because that's what Grineer are weak against.  A heavy impact weapon? That's great for Corpus, so add on some Magnetic element. Slash weapons are particularly useful for... you guessed it, Infested! Simply add some Heat and Blast damage and go eradicate some Infested areas of the galaxy.

The primary elementals are fairly straightforward, but I also like to divide the combined elementals into 2 categories:
Utility

  • Blast - Stun/knockdown
  • Gas - Poison AoE
  • Radiation - Confusion and slowed fire rate/reduced accuracy

Direct

  • Magnetic - Shield reduction
  • Viral - Health reduction
  • Corrosive - Armor reduction/removal

Utility is most useful as a secondary effect, on top of a primary effect you've given your weapon. For example, Embolist already defaults to Toxin damage (a primary), and it's really nice to have Blast (secondary from fire and ice) on top of that to keep things locked down.

29uixir.jpg



Hopefully that explains most of what DE Scott intended, and it really is an elegant design for weapons and enemies, once the kinks are worked out and it's explained to players better in-game. Any more questions?

Updates:

  • DE_Steve has suggested Radiation against Grineer, and testing it out with Synapse shows little penetration through Armor, but to non-armored Grineer health it's fairly effective. (Although in-game codex states no weakness)
  • Added FAQ below based on questions in this thread.
  • Updated information further based on testing and feedback (Thanks to: Phoenix86, NegimaSonic, MeduSalem)
  • Updated according to U11.3.3, I guess.  Hugely controversial update to Damage 2.0, which... dunno... I can't think of any way to explain it in its current state, sorry guys.  Updated the cheat sheet at the top at least.

FAQ Follow-up Questions


Q: Is it true that there are no more armor-ignoring damage types in Damage 2.0?
A: Boost your weapon's Puncture to gain better damage against armored enemies.  You can also use the Corrosive element to reduce/remove armor, along with the Aura mod, Corrosive Projection.

Q: Do bullet type damage not work on Pure Elemental weapons (Ignis, Synpase, etc.) or was that a UI thing?
A: The unique elemental weapons (Ogris, Ignis, Synapse, etc.) use their elemental damage type as default, instead of physical damage. You can still increase this damage by using same element and generic damage mods like Serration. Example: Ogris is 300 Blast damage base, equipped with max Serration (+165%) gives it 300 * 2.65 = 795 Blast damage.

Q: Also how does status chance work? Does it allow for every damage type that the weapon has to hit special effects?
A: In patch 11.0.2, they added icons to damage numbers indicating when Statuses proc from your weapons. You'll notice the status chance is somewhat low for certain weapons, and higher for others. Unfortunately now, just because you're using Cold on your Kunai, it doesn't mean you'll be freezing enemies with every shot; the Frozen/Slowed status effect only has a small chance to proc, depending on the weapon's Status Chance. A further note, is that most of the time when a Physical status procs, it will be the status of type of damage that you have the most of on that weapon. So if you have high impact on a weapon, if a physical status procs, it will most likely be Impact's stun/knockback.

Q: What does armor/puncture damage amount do, exactly? Do enemies now have a set amount of armor (like shields and health) that you blast through before doing damage to health? Or does armor prevent X% of damage from reaching health, and when you deplete the armor you do 100% health damage?
A: Armor does not deplete like shields, but you can reduce/remove an enemy's armor using Corrosive status effects, the Corrosive Projection aura mod, and possibly other mods/abilities. Armor works like mitigation and prevents X % of damage from reaching health, so you'd probably want more puncture than the other two physical types.

Q: Is slash the only physical damage type that lowers health, essentially making the other physical damages useless on low level Infested?
A: No, all damage types are supposed to be able to damage health, but Slash is more effective at reducing non-robotic health fast. It's also cautioned that Impact and Puncture are up to 50% less effective against Infested, meaning you would be better using a weapon whose physical damage was mostly focused on Slash.

Q: So we're pretty much forced to go a one build kind of way with weapons?
A: Somewhat, but not really. For physical damage you're usually better off complimenting your weapon's base stats, but you can find a lot of versatility in the effects you put on it. Technically you could also fit up to 3 elemental effects on your weapon, utility and otherwise, but they may be competing for proc chance (we're not sure yet). It's really just up to your personal preference at the time, what you want to go for...

For example, Synapse is a beautifully versatile weapon. It defaults as electric damage, which can be:

  • Boosted purely as Electric, or
  • Combined with Cold to form Magnetic and drain Corpus shields fast, or
  • Combined with Heat to form Radiation to debilitate and confuse most enemies, or
  • Combined with Toxin to form Corrosive and melt Grineer armor, or
  • Combined with one of the above and Blast/Gas for even more crowd control possibilities...

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392 answers to this question

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NegimaSonic    333

Looking forward to it. And well I wasn't sure if it was different or not but I figured the whole Melee electric max being 120% and freeze being 60% could change some combos.

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WhiskeyGolf    280

No, if you have 58 blast damage, that is added into each hit.  Having blast damage on your weapon ALSO gives you a chance to proc the Blast status effect, which is stun/knockdown.  Let's take an example, and remember it's guess-timation on my part, just from the testing I've done:

A base Boltor with just unranked Cryo Rounds and Hellfire (+15% cold and +15% heat), yields:

  • 1.8 Impact
  • 14.4 Puncture
  • 1.8 Slash
  • 5.4 Blast
  • 5% Status Chance

Physical Damage totals to 18 damage, so the Blast damage calculates to (18 * .15) + (18 * .15) = 2.7 + 2.7 = 5.4 Blast damage.  Now let's say you take a single shot at a simple level 1 Grineer Lancer.  The formula is always (Impact result + Puncture result + Slash result) + Elemental Damage, and they are calculated individually before being added together to give you those damage numbers you see pop up.

  • Impact returns .5 damage maybe, because Grineer are impact-resistant.
  • Puncture returns near full damage, probably around 14, because Grineer are weak to puncture
  • Slash returns .5 damage maybe, because it's being mitigated largely by the Grineer's armor.
  • Blast returns the full damage probably, around 5.2, because most things are weak to Blast damage I think.

Your average damage each shot on that level 1 Lancer would probably be around ~20, so it would take around 5 shots of this hypothetical Boltor to kill that level 1 Lancer using these new damage calculations.  There's also a 5% chance to proc any of the damage statuses this Boltor has, but I'm not exactly sure if that's 5% across the board or if there's something more complicated.

 

Yes, the damage is separate from the status proc.  The formula is (Impact damage + Puncture + Slash) + Elemental Damage.  Personally I also feel like the higher damage type on your weapon improves the odds of that particular damage type proc'ing its status effect on an enemy.

Thanks for that well-said explanation! This gives me some hope that the Soma isn't to terribly nerfed - so basically, I'll have additional elemental damage per shot, seperate from the Proc chance. I can live with that, and that really explains reducing the crit chance; My previous Soma was doing something like 57 damage or so (20 base + 15 cold + 12 Fire + 10 AP), then last night it was doing IIRC 118 Damage (14 impact + 24 Puncture + 22 Slash + 58 Blast). That makes up for it somewhat. ^_^

 

But damnit, I really shoulda Formaed it when it was easier to do so. :p Ah, well, thanks for your help again!

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Wurmheart    7

Seems op´s info was just outdated, it was correct once before the patch as design council was given said info.

Wiki is updated by anyone really, so can get really wrong at times as well. But for now trust the wiki slightly more.

 

Anyway so far it seems:

Flesh = Grineer, since none of the infested take extra dmg from viral (not even the armoured leapers who take half roughly due to armor)

Robotics = Corpus, but doesn't count as a dmg bonus when shields are up.

Armor = obviously enough, codex nicely lists armor for mobs but the leaper entry is wrong though. Armor increases with lvl for mobs. Also turns their health bars green/yellow ish

Shields = Well shields, and doesn't improve/reduce when their shields are gone. Enemy shields do seem to scale with level as well.

 

Still need to do some more tests, but i'll wait till i get a pathogen rounds.

So far, Toxin, Gas, Corrosive & Viral And Electric all seem correct though.

The Toxin line doesn't seem as badly effected by the -robotics tbh, their status effects directly dmg health and you still deal full dmg against shields.

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NegimaSonic    333

Damage works same as before. Always on. Always adding to your damage just for having it.

It's just "effects" are no longer guaranteed, they're chances to inflict status.

 

Using freeze as an example, instead of inflicting slow every shot, it has a CHANCE to inflict slow. But it still will always deal "freeze" damage. So if you don't care about effects or have to give up slots for other mods, it is extra damage, simple as that.

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NegimaSonic    333

Yeah I agree. Personally, I'm not even sure if it is worth it on Pistols, but I believe the bonus there is somewhat more usable. I didn't do extensive testing for that but with one setup on the Akbolto I did 127 damage with 180% damage, 60% puncture, and 90% blast on a lancer. And on another run I did 134 with 180% damage, 150% blast on a lancer.

 

Elements came out on top again but the bonus wasn't as large compared to the mod cost.

BUT this was only on a weapon that had a good amount of puncture to begin with. The other stats...not so much (slash is even non-existent on this weapon). And this wasn't even Corrosive. So as a general case, I'd still pick elements over physical unless I'm in need of the points.

 

Shotguns still have the broken Accelerated Blast though so it's probably more worth it as long as that works.

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Sparrohawk    597

That's interesting to see, and does give me some hope that at least not all mods got nerfed. ^_^;

 

Actually yes, this is a point we should do our best to clarify:

Can we interpret the elemental damage mods as giving an increase to damage per shot, and that this increase is actually separate from the elemental proc? 

 

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Zachles    3,941

I'm going to be here forever trying to figure out the meaning of this, but thanks for posting this for me, as I've been gone for over two weeks... Time to catch up!

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_Aahz    614

I'm sorry, but there seems to be some conflicting information out there.  Either you or the wiki is wrong

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0#Damage_Type_Multipliers

 

Granted I've seen both your cheat sheet AND the wiki get changed in the last day.  According to the wiki, Infested, Corpus and Grineer all have DIFFERENT base health types with different weaknesses and strengths.  The wiki calls them Flesh (grineer unarmored), Infested (all infested), Robot (Corpus without shields).

 

For example, your sheet says infested are VERY WEAK to Viral, when the wiki says that Viral is ONLY good against flesh.  Same with Toxin, Gas, Blast, and Radiation.  None of those have bonuses towards Infested, but rather Flesh, or Grineer.  (Apparently Radiation no longer has a bonus towards Grineer, even though a dev said it at one time and your old graphic had Grineer VERY WEAK to it).

 

This also affects physical damage types.  Slash is good against Flesh and Infested so good for Grineer and Infested.  Impact is good against shields and robotic, so perfect for Corpus.  Puncture is good against Armor and Robotic, so Grineer and Corpus.

 

Since yours got stickied, inferring some sort of reasonably official information, I want to ask what the hell is the correct answer here?  And on top of all of this, apparently DE threw a wrench into the wrench pit because now we are seeing armor coming back on Infested and Corpus on high levels.  All of this miss-information is making my head spin.

Yep, welcome to an open beta game, lol.  Things are subject to change and incorrect information.  Viral is still very effective on "normal" non-armored infested (tested on level 70+ infested, Palus, Pluto), but it is NOT effective against armored Infested.  Leapers only start gaining armor around level ~40 or so, and then they basically switch from being Flesh to being Armored, which require different counter-elementals.

 

Also, Radiation is still effective against Grineer health, which means non-armored Grineer.  The moment the armor is off, they switch from Armored to Flesh, and the elemental effectiveness is changed accordingly.

 

And just because this post is pinned, does not make it official in any way, sorry.  Moderators just thought it was a helpful introduction of where to start when modding weapons for the new damage system.  Moderators themselves don't even necessarily imply "official" word, because they don't work for DE.  I would love to see official word (from DE/Admins) on weaknesses/strengths though... but I doubt they would make it that easy.

 

This is great and all, but this new damage system makes it incredibility grindy to level up a weapon, for the most part I have to stick to a single enemy type, this makes the leveling process a bit of a drag and not very fun...I like the direction 2.0 is going in, but right its annoying to try and level up my weapons.  

I completely agree on this actually... starting with a fresh weapon, you're not only limited on the elementals you can add, but also on the enemies that can be damaged by it.  Seems like the physical damage needs a slight buff on all weapons, so that even on enemies that aren't weak to your weapon's strengths can still be reasonably damaged (only have to use 30-40% more ammo to kill those enemies, instead of the current 200%+ ammo used with some weapons).

 

I'm also interested in finding out since there's a lot of conflicting information. I can confirm that Leapers have a lot of Armor at higher levels and my Flux Rifle (high base Slash damage) modded with Viral and Heat could barely scratch them. And Viral did not seem to be as effective as it's supposed to so it is possible that the "flesh" damage type does not apply to infested.

More accurate and official information about damage types and vulnerabilities- ideally in the codex would really help us adjust to the new system.

Anyway so far it seems:

Flesh = Grineer, since none of the infested take extra dmg from viral (not even the armoured leapers who take half roughly due to armor)

Robotics = Corpus, but doesn't count as a dmg bonus when shields are up.

Armor = obviously enough, codex nicely lists armor for mobs but the leaper entry is wrong though. Armor increases with lvl for mobs. Also turns their health bars green/yellow ish

Shields = Well shields, and doesn't improve/reduce when their shields are gone. Enemy shields do seem to scale with level as well.

 

Still need to do some more tests, but i'll wait till i get a pathogen rounds.

So far, Toxin, Gas, Corrosive & Viral And Electric all seem correct though.

The Toxin line doesn't seem as badly effected by the -robotics tbh, their status effects directly dmg health and you still deal full dmg against shields.

Like I stated above, if the Infested has Armor (yellow HP bar instead of red), it is not treated as a Flesh enemy.  If it has armor, it is treated as an Armored enemy, so Viral and Heat will not damage it effectively.  Non-armored Infested are still treated as Flesh, and are damaged effectively by Viral/Heat.

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CookingFood    963

Screenshot from 11.3.3 codex.

a2aPEdK.jpg

Edit: Oh hey, just noticed they changed +25% bonus damage from Impact to Slash again.  That's nice.

 

Oh nice thanks. I didn't bother scanning them.

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Chireadan    0

Something's been bugging me since the big update: how does multishot work from now on? Applying straight to weapon stats? Cause i don't see any double/tripple numbers when hitting something. Same with elemental procs - i dont see anything lit on fire or whatever element we're talking, sometimes only small pickaxe (?) icon next to the dmg indicator.

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Coerrywuas    106

Thank you very much for your effort to explain this incredible huddle of nonsense! I really hope DEs are going to making towards the so called "final" or "stable" (and maybe "understandable") damage 2.x-system. Because the way it is handled right now is GARBAGE! Amen.

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Kurtd    22

1. Thanks!

 

2. Just need a little clarification on elemental damage.  So if my screen says I am doing 500 Corrosive, because I put Stormbringer and Infected Clip in my rifle, it will actually DO that damage every shot, or it will only do that if it procs?  Makes a huge difference on the build.

 

3. How does Charged Melee damage work?  It is just a number, not a I/P/S number.

 

4. Thanks!!

Ur Elemental dammage work same like 1.0

Just now with Combined Elemental Type, u have a Chance to Proc some effect :P

Corrosiv debuff armor stack, so u not gonna really see the difference with only one Corrosiv proc.

 

Sry for my eng !

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NegimaSonic    333

There is an exception though, if the weapon is melee then it can gain puncture through Rending Strike, or if it is a shotgun it can gain it through Accelerated Blast. But I think there's only like one pure elemental melee so this isn't all that useful. (Still it can be used on any shotgun or melee to add a significant amount of puncture regardless of the default values)

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Pro3Display    653

I don't know if you were counting the time that included the Corpus crewman's shield being up, because if you were, that was a part of it, slash might be good on health but you've gotta beat the shields first and it has no bonus against that.

no i wasnt counting shields, with shields they die million times slower. i believe there is radiation/cold additional on mine

 

but remembering the old armor curve i see that we got same situation but now with all weapons almost without exception

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_Aahz    614

Just wanted to throw out, yes, either UI is glitched or damage calculations are glitched, when it comes to physical damage increasing elemental damage.  When you put an elemental on a physical damage weapon, it is currently bugged and only calculates the elemental damage from the weapon's base damage, instead of the modified weapon damage (from adding +impact/puncture/slash mods).  Until they fix this bug, only the increased generic damage mods like Serration will boost elemental damage.

 

Also, I'm currently analyzing some survival videos to get an idea of how much stats enemies have, and how it scales with increasing levels.  Will hopefully be able to graph it and see the solid line of how it ramps up.  Once I can determine the line, it might be easier to see how armor is affecting damage.  A corrosive proc is very useful for removing a Leaper's armor so you can determine how much X damage is taking away from their HP bar...

 

Oh, and fun notes,

  • Trinity's Link will pass on status procs to the linked enemies
  • Gas Dual Ichor are awesome.
  • Gas/Corrosive Stinger is also fairly handy when you're adding to your pokedex... except when enemies get too close.
  • Corrosive/Blast is definitely one of the better all-around combos.
  • Embolist with Blast is hilarious.

Hopefully Wednesday's patch will bring lots of bugfixes and improvements to codex/weapons/UI.  (including adding timer and objective status to the new map, please D:)

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Bionic711    57

An interesting point I came across last night that I noted:

 

I was doing a T1 exterminate solo for Codex. The Corpus Crewman against my Latron Prime:

 

Headshots were taking 6-8 rounds to drop the shields than 1 round for a kill.

 

Chestshots took 2 rounds from full shields to dead.

 

Corpus crewman obviously aren't prone to headshots from the Prime, but I find it interesting the difference in taking dmg between the head and chest of this particular mob, and wondering if it's the same or similar effects on other mobs.  

 

Can anyone confirm what I was seeing last night in the Void?

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KARMA2605    605

3) Follow up to 2, if it indeed no longer works: What do you suggest as builds for those pure elemental weapons that are not toxin element? 

 

From what the UI was telling me last night, and that doesn't necessarily make it correct I didn't test extensively in game, adding a Fire Damage mod to an Ignis will boost it's main damage.  Add an Electricity Damage mod to the Synpase or Prove, boost it's main damage.  Ecetera.

 

 

SO now unlike Damage 1.0, Elemntal damage actually affects your weapon's damage abiltiy. How do we fit all of this in just 8 slots?

 

For example, I have a Soma (potato'ed) with this set up:

Split Chamber

vital Sense

Serration

Wild Fire

Piercing Hit

Point Strike

Speed Trigger

 

If I were to change it int a Damage 2.0 build, how would I do it How do I fit mods to improve Slash and Puncture and Status along with Elemental mods, while keeping Speed Trigger and other crit mods?

 

You're not.  This is now meant to be about making hard choices.  You're not meant to have everything.  You didn't have Elemental mods before other than Wildfire - you don't need them now either.   I was planning to make a post similar to this but breaking down what appears to be the role of each weapon - I don't have the list finished, but the Soma's "role" appears to be as a Critical Build main.  Your best DPS will come from high chance of crit expanded on by an immense rate of fire.  Anything you can add onto that is great but unnecessary.  The weapon will still outperform a similar 10 base damage high fire rate weapon with Elemental mods because of the high crit rate - or at least, appears to be the case depending on your exact load out and what you are facing.

 

Where Crit Builds will shine in a way is that you don't have to worry about needing different elements for the different enemy types you may encounter in a mission.  Just blast them with high amounts of base puncture or slash damage.  But as OP stated, it won't ever be a top contender against shielded Corpus.  Once you get the shields off of them, through whatever means, it will still slash through Crewmen and do decent against MOAs and such.

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Aimop95    743

Did someone complain that the game was too hard. Because all you did with the update is make the enemy a lot, A LOT stronger and gave players NOTHING.

That's good. Makes for a challenge.

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