Loadout Slots Cap? Why and why not make it limitless so we can buy as many as we want.

[AlokinVetob]

Hello,

I am a big fan of the game and almost have all deluxe bundles and almost all Prime frames. I would like to have access to as many Loadout Slots in the arsenal as I would want so I can have at least 1 for each Prime frame. Currently, I am MR 21 I need to rank all the way to 30 to get 15 more slots and honestly those 15 would run out at some time too. So why not allow us to buy as many Loadout Slots as we need?

Please consider I believe others might benefit from it too and you too since we will be spending money hahahha. Joke aside its a not very convenient and useful limit to have IMO.

Kind Regards
Alokin

[quxier]

It's like frame/weapon configs. There is max 6. Why. Just because.

[S1lenzi0]

THIS! I would like to have at least one slot for each frame, instead I'm stuck with a "temporary" one were I constantly shuffle things on the go 💀
Why have an arbitrary limit of 35 max slots when we can have 52 different frames (and more)? 
Getting rid of this kind of absurd micromanagement could be an awesome QoL change.

Edited March 16, 2023 by S1lenzi0

[Birdframe_Prime]

Well, old topic is old.

So old that there are multiple confirmed-by-the-devs answers to this. So old, in fact, that DE actually said 'We are not going to change our method of releasing Loadout Slots until our internal metrics show that it's monetarily viable, please stop asking.'

Most well known answer is this: Loadout slots cost DE money. Slots are data that is accessed every single time you open and close your Arsenal, whether you're using them or not. Data access, not data storage, is what costs money on server hosting. Multiply that by every single player, accessing multiple times a play session, every day, 24 hours a day... it costs money that DE do not want to spend on Loadout Slots. They would rather spend them on Riven slots, for example.

Most given-by-DE answer is this: Loadouts are for your favourites, not for every frame. They will release more, but they will not speed this process up, and there will always be a balance between Pay and Play for the access to them.

Honestly, they really have answered this question.

And until they say different (stay tuned, they might), we aren't getting this sped up. Limitless is right out.

[AlokinVetob]

Well, thanks for letting me know BUT I still would like to hear officially from DE if possible hahaha but I did not check if the topic was already brought up. I opened a case with them and the support team advised me to add a thread here. 
Also, I do not believe the Data and expense thing is actually viable...It loads either way tons of data all the time. Yes, you can minimize it by some small degree but I would rather they remove the Archwing load-outs and invest that data into Warframe Loadout Slots but it's not up to me really but it seems like a poorly constructed excuse (That one at least)

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Data access

sigh

and yet every single update, they feel comfortable introducing a New Resource Type (sometimes two) that will be used to craft a single item then never be used again, but will permanently add to the size of the data query for all players forever.

 

Yeah, they don't want people blowing through 'new content' using a stockpile of Existing Resources. But didn't this already get solved with Decaying Argon Crystals? why have they forgotten those exist and serve the same purpose?

 

[(PSN)MGA_Adeus666]

2 hours ago, AlokinVetob said:

Well, thanks for letting me know BUT I still would like to hear officially from DE if possible hahaha but I did not check if the topic was already brought up. I opened a case with them and the support team advised me to add a thread here. 
Also, I do not believe the Data and expense thing is actually viable...It loads either way tons of data all the time. Yes, you can minimize it by some small degree but I would rather they remove the Archwing load-outs and invest that data into Warframe Loadout Slots but it's not up to me really but it seems like a poorly constructed excuse (That one at least)

I'm a tech and currently also a network engineering student.

Explaining to you how much server strain that would inevitably add isn't really worth the dev team's time (I'm impressed they actually made the crossplay a reality). If the player data were all stored locally, maybe it would be doable, but it's not (that's actually a good thing since it protects against cheating, and makes picking up your place on a friend's system easy). Everyone who does understand would rather they ignore your question and keep working on fixing all the bugs in the game they don't have time to deal with because of the regular update release schedule, and maybe complete the cross platform functionality this year if we're lucky.

A common programmer meme shows a comment within code stating that nobody on a project team knows what the line tied to it was supposed to do, but removing (because it made no sense there) caused the whole thing to break, so anyone reading it was advised to leave it alone. It's also a good example of a popular programmer motto: if it isn't broken, leave it alone.

Did you know if you go into your prime parts inventory and sort by name the Odonata Prime Blueprint is listed after Z? Just that prime part. The rest of the Odonata prime part blueprints are listed in the proper order positions. I've been waiting over 6 years to see them fix that. I assume it breaks something else if they try.

[AlokinVetob]

I am a sys admin lad you don't need to educate me...please I am probably more aware of the situation since I've worked with SQL queries and Servers probably more than you. I don't mean to be disrespectful but like i said its a poorly constructed excuse the other things you say I agree with :) 

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

I know nothing about data storage or anything like this, but I would easily sacrifice every Archwing/Vehicle loadout I have just to be able to keep a loadout for every frame + 1 free loadout I can mess with. I hope DE figures out a way to pander to people like me, but I'll differ to anyone with expertise, so if DE says it's actually impossible, I'll believe that unless proven otherwise.

[quxier]

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Most well known answer is this: Loadout slots cost DE money. Slots are data that is accessed every single time you open and close your Arsenal, whether you're using them or not. Data access, not data storage, is what costs money on server hosting. Multiply that by every single player, accessing multiple times a play session, every day, 24 hours a day... it costs money that DE do not want to spend on Loadout Slots. They would rather spend them on Riven slots, for example.

*DE at the same time*:
Let's make players go through relays, load every player's info/appearance, vendors, vendoers' infos, Shamisen song and other unneccessary stuffs so Player can access e.g. Simulacrum.

5 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Most well known answer is this: Loadout slots cost DE money. Slots are data that is accessed every single time you open and close your Arsenal,

Do you have any citation from DE that's exactly how game works (you click Arcenal > all loadout slots are loaded)? I mean I have not accessed slots for AGES. For players like me it would be waste to load (even empty) 34 more slots (OP says 35 at MR 30).

[Birdframe_Prime]

21 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

and yet every single update, they feel comfortable introducing a New Resource Type (sometimes two) that will be used to craft a single item then never be used again, but will permanently add to the size of the data query for all players forever.

Yeah, because that's stored under 'Resource, #23647. Quantity, 400,000'

As opposed to a Loadout Slot that stores... let's see...

Warframe, (helmet, skin, seven colour customisations for skin, five slots for armour, ephemera, seven colour customisations, syandana, seven colour customisations, auxiliary and whether one exists or not, idle animation, Archon Shards), Weapons (primary, seven colour customisations, could be a bow with an additional Arrow skin and seven colour customisations, secondary, seven colour customisations, melee, seven colour customisations, sugatra, seven colour customisations), Parazon (skin, colour customisations).

Each item has a mod config with a minimum of 9 mod slots, Polarisation status of those slots (there's a check on whether it is, and to what, for every slot), Arcanes, and which of the configs you're specifically using at the time. Further, there are frames with Modded Ability weapons, adding an extra item that requires skin, customisation and mod config.

That is, at minimum, around 170-180 tracked items per Loadout, with an upper limit of around 220, and those minimum tracked items exist as tracked items even if the slot is empty. Meaning that even if the items were stored as a simple bit data of 'yes/no' and a number for the actual item value, plus the relevant data call line to show what that number relates to for the game to call up the appearances and stats, you're looking at a small, but not-insignificant, amount of data for every slot, say it's around half a kilobyte per slot.

And let's say that between the paying players and the free players, the average person would have around 15-20 slots available. Not a lot, compared the the 50+ we could have, but apparently not everyone engages in the system. That's not much on its own, barely 10KB. 

Now, multiply that small amount of data by the current live peaks of players that Steam is telling us; 42,198 players at 6 minutes ago as of typing. Now add that to whatever the current Playstation, Xbox and Switch tallies are.

Now multiply that value by whatever the average number of times those players open and close their Arsenal happens to be over 24 hours.

Starting to sound like a large number yet? Starting to sound like gigs of data being transferred 24 hours a day every day, globally?

I mean...

Compare that to your Inventory, which has 'Resource X, amount Y' stored for every single thing you have, with two or three bytes of data and a callout code, and which you don't actually access often, because you also find that tally in a more manageable way in your Foundry.

So... Yeah. I know which is easier to manage for Server data access.

18 hours ago, quxier said:

*DE at the same time*:
Let's make players go through relays, load every player's info/appearance, vendors, vendoers' infos, Shamisen song and other unneccessary stuffs so Player can access e.g. Simulacrum.

Yeah, functional or cosmetic things while you're playing the game? Absolutely. That's actually part of the game that has players doing something called 'interacting'. Whether just with the game itself through Vendors, or with other players through being in the same location.

I definitely couldn't imagine why a game developer would prioritise the data usage towards any of those things.

18 hours ago, quxier said:

Do you have any citation from DE that's exactly how game works

Yes. Pablo explained it on Prime Time a while back as part of the whole 'why we have limited slots for Rivens' discussion.

He explained that the data access when you open a part of the menu doesn't stop at that one menu, such as the Mod bench or Arsenal, the game pre-loads the most commonly use sub-menus in the background to make your navigation smoother and faster.

So every time you open the Arsenal, it prepares your Loadouts and calls the actual data storage first, so you have the list of things to draw from, and then when you actually click on the sub menu it then loads all the visual assets to help you navigate.

Rivens, specifically, having their unique aspects mean that each account has 160+ unique mods that are needed to be tracked every time you open the Arsenal, and their recent change to keep Veiled Rivens classified as just 'Shotgun/Rifle/Pistol Riven, Veiled' so that you can't see the challenge until you slot it, is exactly part of the data storage issues they have.

This is, in fact, how almost all games handle their data storage for client-side interaction, and other games are often known to store the equivalent data of a Loudout Slot as a de-facto separate character you have to load in on your account, sometimes going as far as making players pay for those other character slots even though the overall Account itself is the same,

[quxier]

18 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

18 hours ago, quxier said:

*DE at the same time*:
Let's make players go through relays, load every player's info/appearance, vendors, vendoers' infos, Shamisen song and other unneccessary stuffs so Player can access e.g. Simulacrum.

Yeah, functional or cosmetic things while you're playing the game? Absolutely. That's actually part of the game that has players doing something called 'interacting'. Whether just with the game itself through Vendors, or with other players through being in the same location.

I definitely couldn't imagine why a game developer would prioritise the data usage towards any of those things.

Sure, if player want to interact. I go to relays for simple tasks like changing some currency (e.g. Teshin) or going to Simulacrum. I don't want to interact.

21 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

18 hours ago, quxier said:

Do you have any citation from DE that's exactly how game works

Yes. Pablo explained it on Prime Time a while back as part of the whole 'why we have limited slots for Rivens' discussion.

He explained that the data access when you open a part of the menu doesn't stop at that one menu, such as the Mod bench or Arsenal, the game pre-loads the most commonly use sub-menus in the background to make your navigation smoother and faster.

Ok, that explain everything.

They could make it not load everything or something but I guess it's not worth the effort.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Just now, quxier said:

I go to relays for simple tasks like changing some currency (e.g. Teshin) or going to Simulacrum.

That's you interacting with the game.

Think about it like that; how does a slot that stores your Loadout, cause you to interact with the game more? It's convenient, yes. Can't argue with that. But it's not you interacting with the game. It's a way to interact less. It's automating a part of the game where you would make some choices.

But that's being a little hyperbolic there.

Interacting with the game is something DE is encouraging; seeing a thing in the NPC shop, going and playing the game for currency, coming back to the shop to hand over the next specific currency, then go and do it again. You have to walk around, see the game, press X to interact and hear voice lines, characters, the world of Warframe.

Rather than 'click through menus for the shop tab, go play the game for the currency, pay into the menu tab, repeat'.

That 'interacting with the game' is the reason that we even have a Liset and Orbiter in the first place, instead of just the original 'kneeling in the void and selecting things from the menu' that we used to have when I joined.

So yeah... the things you mentioned are actually part of playing the game. That's why they would be prioritised.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

 

Interacting with the game is something DE is encouraging; seeing a thing in the NPC shop, going and playing the game for currency, coming back to the shop to hand over the next specific currency, then go and do it again. You have to walk around, see the game, press X to interact and hear voice lines, characters, the world of Warframe.

Rather than 'click through menus for the shop tab, go play the game for the currency, pay into the menu tab, repeat'.

The thing is... I'm not interacting with game more than it would be with menus. For example when I go to Simulacrum I select Syndicate menu to go to Simaris, load stuffs and within seconds I go to simulacrum. That's not interaction. That's not encouraging players to interact. That's just making stuffs worse just because.

There are other stuffs that make us go to Relay and interact with game, players and some special items. Going to Simaris, syndicates and vendors are not one of them. Whole going back and forth to hear & see some NPC gets boring after few times.

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

That 'interacting with the game' is the reason that we even have a Liset and Orbiter in the first place, instead of just the original 'kneeling in the void and selecting things from the menu' that we used to have when I joined.

Liset/Orbiter is in my opinion part of immersion. And that's pretty good. It's not some kind of "interact with game" kind of thing. We would have the same stuffs with just menu.

[iPathos]

22 hours ago, (PSN)MGA_Adeus666 said:

Did you know if you go into your prime parts inventory and sort by name the Odonata Prime Blueprint is listed after Z? Just that prime part. The rest of the Odonata prime part blueprints are listed in the proper order positions. I've been waiting over 6 years to see them fix that. I assume it breaks something else if they try.

It's because of the Archwing icon/symbol in the name. Same thing applies to Kuva/Tenet weapons, same thing applies to Archwing weapons (parts do not have the symbol, BPs do). It's just ordered after Z in alphanumeric terms because it's not a standard letter or number.

[AlokinVetob]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Yeah, because that's stored under 'Resource, #23647. Quantity, 400,000'

As opposed to a Loadout Slot that stores... let's see...

Warframe, (helmet, skin, seven colour customisations for skin, five slots for armour, ephemera, seven colour customisations, syandana, seven colour customisations, auxiliary and whether one exists or not, idle animation, Archon Shards), Weapons (primary, seven colour customisations, could be a bow with an additional Arrow skin and seven colour customisations, secondary, seven colour customisations, melee, seven colour customisations, sugatra, seven colour customisations), Parazon (skin, colour customisations).

Each item has a mod config with a minimum of 9 mod slots, Polarisation status of those slots (there's a check on whether it is, and to what, for every slot), Arcanes, and which of the configs you're specifically using at the time. Further, there are frames with Modded Ability weapons, adding an extra item that requires skin, customisation and mod config.

That is, at minimum, around 170-180 tracked items per Loadout, with an upper limit of around 220, and those minimum tracked items exist as tracked items even if the slot is empty. Meaning that even if the items were stored as a simple bit data of 'yes/no' and a number for the actual item value, plus the relevant data call line to show what that number relates to for the game to call up the appearances and stats, you're looking at a small, but not-insignificant, amount of data for every slot, say it's around half a kilobyte per slot.

And let's say that between the paying players and the free players, the average person would have around 15-20 slots available. Not a lot, compared the the 50+ we could have, but apparently not everyone engages in the system. That's not much on its own, barely 10KB. 

Now, multiply that small amount of data by the current live peaks of players that Steam is telling us; 42,198 players at 6 minutes ago as of typing. Now add that to whatever the current Playstation, Xbox and Switch tallies are.

Now multiply that value by whatever the average number of times those players open and close their Arsenal happens to be over 24 hours.

Starting to sound like a large number yet? Starting to sound like gigs of data being transferred 24 hours a day every day, globally?

I mean...

Compare that to your Inventory, which has 'Resource X, amount Y' stored for every single thing you have, with two or three bytes of data and a callout code, and which you don't actually access often, because you also find that tally in a more manageable way in your Foundry.

So... Yeah. I know which is easier to manage for Server data access.

Yeah, functional or cosmetic things while you're playing the game? Absolutely. That's actually part of the game that has players doing something called 'interacting'. Whether just with the game itself through Vendors, or with other players through being in the same location.

I definitely couldn't imagine why a game developer would prioritise the data usage towards any of those things.

Yes. Pablo explained it on Prime Time a while back as part of the whole 'why we have limited slots for Rivens' discussion.

He explained that the data access when you open a part of the menu doesn't stop at that one menu, such as the Mod bench or Arsenal, the game pre-loads the most commonly use sub-menus in the background to make your navigation smoother and faster.

So every time you open the Arsenal, it prepares your Loadouts and calls the actual data storage first, so you have the list of things to draw from, and then when you actually click on the sub menu it then loads all the visual assets to help you navigate.

Rivens, specifically, having their unique aspects mean that each account has 160+ unique mods that are needed to be tracked every time you open the Arsenal, and their recent change to keep Veiled Rivens classified as just 'Shotgun/Rifle/Pistol Riven, Veiled' so that you can't see the challenge until you slot it, is exactly part of the data storage issues they have.

This is, in fact, how almost all games handle their data storage for client-side interaction, and other games are often known to store the equivalent data of a Loudout Slot as a de-facto separate character you have to load in on your account, sometimes going as far as making players pay for those other character slots even though the overall Account itself is the same,

Bro, I don't understand why you keep repeating your opinion fine ok we get your point of view. Let us have ours. If you are with DE i understand but I cant take your answer seriously even if it has merit. 

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

5 minutes ago, AlokinVetob said:

Bro, I don't understand why you keep repeating your opinion fine ok we get your point of view. Let us have ours. If you are with DE i understand but I cant take your answer seriously even if it has merit. 

Don't post on a public forum if you don't want to see other people's opinions (or explanations in this case). Easy as that.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

Wild y'all defending DE for not implementing a basic and highly requested paid addition. 

[Tyreaus]

22 hours ago, quxier said:

*DE at the same time*:
Let's make players go through relays, load every player's info/appearance, vendors, vendoers' infos, Shamisen song and other unneccessary stuffs so Player can access e.g. Simulacrum.

While neither I nor my PC like the amount of loading for relays, for sure, I believe most of that is done with peer connections. E.g. clients carrying occasionally-checked cached instances of their visible items that are then shared with other players. Each client might check with the server to ensure their own stuff is kosher, once in a while, but a client wouldn't talk with the server to load up someone else's goodies. They'd just talk with the other client to pass that along. And things like vendors could be pretty easily cached on the server, since it changes so seldom, assuming they don't do something like distribute hosting and make the clients in a relay the caches.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

25 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Wild y'all defending DE for not implementing a basic and highly requested paid addition. 

The devs are saying they can't do it because of technology restraints. Unless you can prove that's not true, there's no reason to assume that DE can add it. Believe me, I use the maximum number of loadout slots to their fullest extent, and I want DE to give me more, but if they can't do it, they can't do it.

[Birdframe_Prime]

16 hours ago, quxier said:

Liset/Orbiter is in my opinion part of immersion. And that's pretty good. It's not some kind of "interact with game" kind of thing. We would have the same stuffs with just menu.

You call it 'immersion' I call it 'interaction'. Interaction is the key part of immersion.

Going to an NPC, and not going through the menus (because you know for a fact that DE added those because players were whining about how long it takes), is part of this whole thing of having a game world and having to navigate through it to get to the people you need to talk to. That's interaction.

It does get boring after the number of times we have to do it. Can't argue there.

But that's part of the deal here. You would have to go through the loading screens anyway, because DE doesn't want you to have a one-click entry to the Simulacrum. Why not have the visual aspects to go along with it?

In any case. We're a long way off topic now ^^

Let's put this one down for another debate later. The main topic has been done to death and we're only giving OP's repeat of a repeat topic more life than it needs.

15 hours ago, AlokinVetob said:

Bro, I don't understand why you keep repeating your opinion fine ok we get your point of view.

Opinion?

Hah, I wish it was my opinion. This is DE's actual statement on the matter. I'm just a reporter. I was on your side of things until DE said what they said, and now it's just the actual answer to the question.

Go do something about it. Get your friends to buy to the limit. Fill every one of your slots and keep getting people to do so. Try and convince the game's internal metrics that it's worth the money to add more.

That's literally the only thing that will change the situation, not complaining about me telling you the truth.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

15 hours ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

The devs are saying they can't do it because of technology restraints. Unless you can prove that's not true, there's no reason to assume that DE can add it. Believe me, I use the maximum number of loadout slots to their fullest extent, and I want DE to give me more, but if they can't do it, they can't do it.

The community thought they would never be able to fix bing chilling and DE has given us a bs excuse for the SE caps. I'm just saying you can't exactly trust what DE says.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

27 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

The community thought they would never be able to fix bing chilling and DE has given us a bs excuse for the SE caps. I'm just saying you can't exactly trust what DE says.

If you think DE is lying, prove it. There's no point in pretending something is possible just because the devs said it isn't possible. If you have some insight into data storage technology, feel free to share.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

If you think DE is lying, prove it. There's no point in pretending something is possible just because the devs said it isn't possible. If you have some insight into data storage technology, feel free to share.

Are you getting paid to be their lap dog by chance?

[supernils]

On 2023-03-16 at 8:32 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Well, old topic is old.

So old that there are multiple confirmed-by-the-devs answers to this. So old, in fact, that DE actually said 'We are not going to change our method of releasing Loadout Slots until our internal metrics show that it's monetarily viable, please stop asking.'

well I for once have literally stopped playing because of this issue. So take note, DE.

 

e: thanks to recent changes I was able to buy an addional 4 slots which is juuuuust enough.

Edited February 18 by supernils