Quitting New war quest (and other probably)

[Packetdancer]

34 minutes ago, bitbucket said:

@fo3nixz  was told to pound sand by support.

Hopefully in more polite terms than that, at least.

That said, I'm not surprised. Honestly, I would not be surprised if support doesn't even have the tools to correct this anyway, even if we weren't in a "they've said before to other people that they aren't going to change the quest state" scenario. After all, customer support often has a specific toolbox provided to them; it's not (usually) like they can just go "oh sure I'll log into the backend database as admin and hand-edit your account."

(Plus, as noted earlier in the thread, even if I don't think this specific quest would be too hard to cancel and back out of from a technical standpoint, that's merely guesswork; unlike advancing someone through a quest -- which is an additive operation atop account state -- a rollback operation can be more complicated.)

ANYWAY. Leaving aside all the abstracts about the New War quest situation in general... what are you stuck on specifically, @bitbucket? I suspect it's the archon hunts as Drifter, which seems to be where most folks hit a roadblock, but figure it's best to check. Because regardless of where it is that's got you blocked, some of us might have advice/ideas on how you can sort of cheese through it and finish out the quest.

[Packetdancer]

22 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

For a long quest, it absolutely makes sense to allow a player to roll back to just before starting it - its not like your arsenal is updated in any meaningful way. It would make much more sense to nerf the quest to the bones though, cinematic quests are not gameplay. So removing 1 archon hunt, removing the fortuna "stealth" puzzle, nerfing the railjack requirements, and other aspects would be hugely beneficial. Why did it need to be so long anyway?

Somewhat belatedly... I actually liked the length of the quest. I wish some of our story quests were a little longer, honestly. I like story. And honestly, I think the length of it wouldn't have been a problem -- and might have been lauded by more players! -- if the majority of the quest was still the normal, expected Warframe gameplay.

I do agree the railjack requirements are borderline BS, though -- it'd be nice if it did some sort of sanity check on "is your railjack remotely equipped to handle this" given that I've seen posts of people struggling there -- and the requirement for a necramech is BS, period, full stop. No "borderline" involved. You use a necramech for, what, less than five minutes? Just have a loaner mech they can use if they don't have one. You don't have to craft Paracesis prior to the New War any longer, so it's not like there's not precedent for loosening up the requirements!

(I get why those requirements are there, narratively; it's almost certainly supposed to make it feel like all these disparate events like building your railjack, obtaining a necramech, and so on were all steps along a path leading -- perhaps unknowingly at first, but nonetheless inevitably -- to this confrontation. As a writer, I'd probably do the same thing. As a game designer, however, I think it's a sub-optimal choice.)

Edited January 3 by Packetdancer

[IggySnow]

On 2024-01-02 at 1:29 PM, ShogunGunshow said:

People weren't upset about an optional skip, they were upset that DE was going to CHARGE for it. 

This is just flat out wrong. people were FURIOUS at the very idea of any kind of story skip. Charging for it was just an additional irk that push some people over the edge of disliking it.

[IggySnow]

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

Over the last few years some of DE's decisions and actions (or inaction in this case) really showed how little they actually care for some of the demographics of the community, or the community as a whole to be honest.... Decisions like locking players into a lengthy quest consisting largely of "filler-content" gameplay with a skill requirement higher than their "endgame content" and apparently not being able to help players get out of it are stark reminders that they just really don't care all that much.

Not to mention even as this is going on, they did find the time to consider allowing players to skip this very content, for a price of course.

what skill requirement is higher than the end game content? The only point in the entire quest iv seen anyone really struggle with is hiding from the guys who mask you. and even then the answer to that "skill check" is to stop trying to do the same exact thing over and over again.

[schilds]

There are things they could do that are not story skip, but all of them would take more work.

[0bsi]

2 hours ago, Zimzala said:

I have hundreds of dollars spent on WF and I enjoyed my time playing, still even want to play a mission now and then, but I have some level of self esteem left and I refuse to give them any more of my money until they change this stupid design.

I assume DE's refusal to let struggling players out of TNW (even those who ask support) is because it was made in a way that means they CAN'T to do that..... In that however it was coded, doesn't allow for effectively rolling back the player to their pre-TNW session.   (Which if that is the case, is incredibly poor design)

It's that or they have chosen it as a hill to die on and just WON'T let people quit.... which is where I assume they are now, in that it's surely possible to have made changes to the quest to enable it to be quittable by now if they had truly wanted to.

I get that from their point of view, all future quest content is set after that, so they need to get players to do it -- but locking people into that quest is not the way to do it.

However... while they are refusing to address the TNW issue, I have to hope that they have learned their lesson there and won't be doing that again.

 

[Packetdancer]

5 minutes ago, schilds said:

There are things they could do that are not story skip, but all of them would take more work.

It's also worth noting that I don't think "story skip" was presented as a "get out of the New War quest if stuck" solution specifically. My impression is that the story skip was more being pondered as a "we are having trouble with early-game player retention because there is a lot of old content to get through before you hit the actual story, much less anything current." The fact that "skip to current content" as an option would get you out of being stuck in the New War struck me as more a convenient side effect than the actual intended focus.

(Heck, I don't know that it even would have gotten you out of the New War. If they put it only in the in-game market, you wouldn't be able to buy it without adding special consideration for folks in the New War, since as I recall you can't really access the market itself during the quest -- save for market cosmetics, which themselves are available only by virtue of the cosmetics system always having any unowned market listings integrated anyway.)

[schilds]

"Story skip" pisses people off because DE creates *both* the problems (intentionally or unintentionally) and the solutions.

TNW is/was an *intentional* problem that the suggested story skip shows DE has changed their mind on but were trying to get by with the cheapest and easiest (and apparently profitable) solution they could possibly implement. Little wonder people aren't inclined to let it pass quietly.

Edited January 3 by schilds

[Packetdancer]

2 minutes ago, 0bsi said:

It's that or they have chosen it as a hill to die on and just WON'T let people quit.... which is where I assume they are now, in that it's surely possible to have made changes to the quest to enable it to be quittable by now if they had truly wanted to.

Playing devil's Wally's advocate for a moment here, while you are not wrong that any sensible design would have it possible to rollback the quest (though, see my previous post for the caveats on game dev often having irrational designs as a result of tech debt or rushed schedules), if it has some terrible design that makes it impossible to roll back players, it is conceivable there is no stored functional state to roll the players who embarked on the questline back to.

So it's hypothetically possible they could also have a scenario where you can't get anyone out of the New War -- even with code changes -- without destroying some portion of their account state.

It horrifies me to think about what tangled mess of code considerations might've led into a hypothetical situation like that, but... I've seen things in game code. Terrible things. Things driven by tech debt that warrants the use of that Gravity Falls meme image...

That said, even in that scenario, they could probably have made changes to the quest by now that would make it possible to back out folks who enter and get stuck now... but not doing that because "other folks already stuck would complain that they can't be released" seems very much like a hill I can see devs choosing to die on.

[0bsi]

I see it as the Hema thing all over again :P

[CephalonCarnage]

As a dev I know there is always a way round these things. Even if you have to make compromises such as allowing existing state to exist - eg if you get a nataruk in quest and then decide to quit, you keep the nataruk. That's not optimal but it is still a valid way to deal with the problem. You assume the player will take the quest again later and will end up with a spare nataruk that they cannot trade so all ends up good, or you just don't care they have a nataruk as so many are about now. DE absolutely could do this, but they choose not to. I think the reason is simple: they've looked at the cost of allocating a tiny dev work to it against its importance to them, and they have decided they have better things to do like "Made improvements to the background placement for in-game Market purchase screens".

[0bsi]

3 minutes ago, CephalonCarnage said:

As a dev I know there is always a way round these things. Even if you have to make compromises such as allowing existing state to exist - eg if you get a nataruk in quest and then decide to quit, you keep the nataruk. That's not optimal but it is still a valid way to deal with the problem. You assume the player will take the quest again later and will end up with a spare nataruk that they cannot trade so all ends up good, or you just don't care they have a nataruk as so many are about now. DE absolutely could do this, but they choose not to. I think the reason is simple: they've looked at the cost of allocating a tiny dev work to it against its importance to them, and they have decided they have better things to do like "Made improvements to the background placement for in-game Market purchase screens".

I'm not a dev, but from the little I do know of programming, you wouldn't have to have that situation where they would get a free nataruk. If the nataruk was the issue because it was automatically granted upon starting the quest (even if you don't get access to it until later int he quest), then it would be possible to do a check for if the player had completed the quest or exited... and if they exited, then you remove nataruk from their inventory before they even notice it was there.

They apparently can roll back accidental weapon/frame sales, without rolling back account progress, and they run other scripts to adjust player inventory as needed - so they should be able to address that issue.

I see the access to the drifter as being more problematic, since that's different to just giving/taking a weapon. But even then - you have a toggle for whether you're using drifter or operator, so surely it would be possible to turn off that toggle option for those who decided to quit.  Even if they still see the option there, just can't access it.

 

I'm fairly certain at this point it's just stubbornness rather than any physical reason why it can't be done.  They have had long enough to have been able to find some solution if they had actually wanted to, I'm sure.

They could have also nerfed it to make it easier, they could have given a loaner necramech.... and they haven't.

[CephalonCarnage]

4 minutes ago, 0bsi said:

I'm not a dev, but from the little I do know of programming, you wouldn't have to have that situation where they would get a free nataruk. If the nataruk was the issue because it was automatically granted upon starting the quest (even if you don't get access to it until later int he quest), then it would be possible to do a check for if the player had completed the quest or exited... and if they exited, then you remove nataruk from their inventory before they even notice it was there.

They apparently can roll back accidental weapon/frame sales, without rolling back account progress, and they run other scripts to adjust player inventory as needed - so they should be able to address that issue.

I see the access to the drifter as being more problematic, since that's different to just giving/taking a weapon. But even then - you have a toggle for whether you're using drifter or operator, so surely it would be possible to turn off that toggle option for those who decided to quit.  Even if they still see the option there, just can't access it.

 

I'm fairly certain at this point it's just stubbornness rather than any physical reason why it can't be done.  They have had long enough to have been able to find some solution if they had actually wanted to, I'm sure.

They could have also nerfed it to make it easier, they could have given a loaner necramech.... and they haven't.

Fair point about nataruk and sirocco being rollable back, I was just using it as an example of any other aspects they might let the player keep that they shouldn't have and how its not important. Even the Drifter - its just a skin for operator anyway, once you start TNW the "big reveal" is broken so the only part that mattered is already gone.

[(PSN)PanserKunst]

"Commit to THE NEW WAR? - THE NEW NEW WAR Player Contract

THE NEW WAR requires several hours to complete. You will be able to pause the game, and your progress will be saved between missions.

Prepare wisely.  Consider the ramifications of being locked into a quest you "MUST" complete after commiting to it. Is your Nechramech barely functional or fully upgraded? Is your Railjack freshly minted or battle scarred and modded correctly? Can you deduce when it is likely to use an ability when the situation requires it? Are you capable of observing a situation and formulating a plan, or do you proceed to bang your head against a wall hoping that will get you through? Loadout access will be limited and regular Warframe activities will not be available until this quest is completed!

THE NEW WAR contains sequences of violence, frightening situations involving teens, and depictions of emotional abuse. It is intended for mature audiences.

Type NEWWAR to confirm."

Edited January 4 by (PSN)PanserKunst

[Venus-Venera]

Am 2.1.2024 um 20:13 schrieb bitbucket:

It has been YEARS, give us an option to quit the New War...

Yes. There should be a fixed time limit before you can play it again. I know someone who played it for days straight. it's addictive and too much fun.

[Aruquae]

17 minutes ago, (PSN)PanserKunst said:

"Commit to THE NEW WAR? - THE NEW NEW WAR Player Contract

THE NEW WAR requires several hours to complete. You will be able to pause the game, and your progress will be saved between missions.

Prepare wisely.  Consider the ramifications of being locked into a quest you "MUST" complete after commiting to it. Is your Nechramech barely functional or fully upgraded? Is your Railjack freshly minted or battle scarred and modded correctly? Can you deduce when it is likely to use an ability when the situation requires it? Are you capable of observing a situation and formulating a plan, or do you proceed to bang your head against a wall hoping that will get you through? Loadout access will be limited and regular Warframe activities will not be available until this quest is completed!

THE NEW WAR contains sequences of violence, frightening situations involving teens, and depictions of emotional abuse. It is intended for mature audiences.

Type NEWWAR to confirm."

Let me copy paste my response to this thread earlier. You never know your prepared until you actual jump into it, and by then it’s too late. 

“tHeY dID WArN yOu” 

But of course you probably thought you were prepared with all your powerful gear in check. Then you realize you can’t use said gear. Definitely your fault for not knowing you will use entirely different gear, with an entirely different move set and strategy, completely out of your element. /s 

 

[(XBOX)Shodian]

27 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Let me copy paste my response to this thread earlier. You never know your prepared until you actual jump into it, and by then it’s too late. 

 

“tHeY dID WArN yOu” 

But of course you probably thought you were prepared with all your powerful gear in check. Then you realize you can’t use said gear. Definitely your fault for not knowing you will use entirely different gear, with an entirely different move set and strategy, completely out of your element. /s 

 

Thats just called learning how to play the game.

[Aruquae]

44 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Thats just called learning how to play the game.

Mhm, you’re forgetting the fact this part of the “game” is locked behind the quest they’re trying to complete. You can’t practice in order to learn beforehand. That’s like taking the test without knowing the subject.

Edited January 4 by Aruquae
*you’re

[(XBOX)K1jker]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb 0bsi:

I see it as the Hema thing all over again :P

Reduce the mutagen sample cost! 😡😔😞

[(XBOX)Shodian]

41 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

Mhm, you’re forgetting the fact this part of the “game” is locked behind the quest they’re trying to complete. You can’t practice in order to learn beforehand. That’s like taking the test without knowing the subject.

Aiming, shooting and dodging. All things you do in the main game of Warframe and the quest.

[Aruquae]

25 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Aiming, shooting and dodging. All things you do in the main game of Warframe and the quest.

My dude just summed up the entirety of all shooter games with a dodge mechanic as if that’s all the skill you need. 
Thank you for your wisdom, I’ll use this information in Apex Legends.

Insert “Why didn’t I think of that?” meme here

 

 

[schilds]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Aiming, shooting and dodging. All things you do in the main game of Warframe

Yeah nah. You can *greatly* vary how much you need to do any of these things in the rest of Warframe. You can build a tank, reducing the time pressure to kill things fast before they kill you. You can use AoE or CC abilities, reducing the pressure on aiming. You can play in a way that none of these things need to be coordinated together.

And for the worst bits? To shoot that glowy bit on that one boss you can't handle and come across once in a blue moon? You can bring in a friend or pub or whatever. You keep the room clear of the ads, or you provide buffs or whatever, and they do the one thing you struggle with. And that's fine because you're still assisting, and Warframe was billed from the start as a *co-op* looter shooter. Not a single player adventure with a co-op multiplayer element (for example, like Mass Effect 3).

[Zimzala]

5 hours ago, (PSN)PanserKunst said:

"Commit to THE NEW WAR? - THE NEW NEW WAR Player Contract

...

So you are just willfully ignorant of the actual issue.

Got it.

Glad you enjoy being a jerk, I guess?

Or just enjoying your narcissistic need to feel superior, I guess?

I am so glad I will never have to play a game, eat a meal, or even share the same room with you, virtual or otherwise.

The willfully ignorant are literally some the very worst of humanity.

[Packetdancer]

3 hours ago, schilds said:

Yeah nah. You can *greatly* vary how much you need to do any of these things in the rest of Warframe. You can build a tank, reducing the time pressure to kill things fast before they kill you. You can use AoE or CC abilities, reducing the pressure on aiming. You can play in a way that none of these things need to be coordinated together.

And for the worst bits? To shoot that glowy bit on that one boss you can't handle and come across once in a blue moon? You can bring in a friend or pub or whatever. You keep the room clear of the ads, or you provide buffs or whatever, and they do the one thing you struggle with. And that's fine because you're still assisting, and Warframe was billed from the start as a *co-op* looter shooter. Not a single player adventure with a co-op multiplayer element (for example, like Mass Effect 3).

Moreover, in all the rest of the game, if you encounter content that you're not geared for, you can leave the content and go work on obtaining the gear.

Heck, you can group up with others to let them help you get the gear and teach you the content. Just using railjack as an example, I've taken more than a few newbies out on the Dreams of Tau (my railjack); the Tau is pretty well-kitted, and with them as crew we can tackle some higher-level space missions and get them intrinsics, plexus mods, and better railjack pieces.

We've seen someone in this thread note the very thing I've long suspected might be true -- that the quest will let someone start it with an entirely unmodded railjack and basically zero intrinsics. It's not surprising in the least that a railjack like that cannot survive long enough to reach the murex. But there's no way to go do empyrean missions -- even solo! -- to improve the railjack; a player in that scenario is doomed to a Sisyphean purgatory wherein they forever fly towards a murex, never to reach it. (Because, y'know, they get blown up and have to restart the railjack portion.)

I dunno what possible solution there is to that, short of "have a way to quit the New War." Even if "just learn to play the game" were a suitable response (it's not), I think we'd mostly agree that the thing you'd learn there would be "you do need to mod your railjack at least a little to survive most space stuff." But by the time that lesson is learned, there is no option to apply it. Short of abandoning the Warframe account entirely, starting a new one, and playing through to the New War again but this time modding the railjack.

And heck, even that is a borderline case when it comes to the game's TOS, which says that permission to create alternate accounts will be handled "on a case-by-case basis" by DE! (I suspect they'd allow it in that scenario -- and I know plenty of people who had two accounts on separate platforms without issue -- but...)

[Packetdancer]

13 minutes ago, Qriist said:

I quit playing warframe right after Heart of Deimos dropped until crossplay went live. In order for me to re-open Steel Path to play with my buddy I had to go through TNW to unlock the Zariman nodes, which meant gathering the railjack and necramech. I know my necramech was totally unmodded when I went into TNW, but I'm pretty sure my railjack was, as well. At the very most, it was super duper lightly modded.

I still think DE should just give a loaner necramech for that brief portion if you don't have one; the requirement to build one just to use it for less than five minutes in a multi-hour quest feels ridiculous to me from a balance and gameplay standpoint. But I digress.

I am glad to hear that it's at least possible to do the railjack portion even only lightly modded. I have no personal measurement to judge that by; I actually enjoy railjack content (this may be a character flaw), so the Tau was pretty well-kitted going into TNW.

(This does not change my opinion that there should be a way for a player to quit the New War and return to all the pre-New-War content, mind you.)