Warframe is a tragedy of wasted potential

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, PR1D3 said:

I don't think that's Publik's point. I think its more of how DE saying/doing contradictory actions in regards how content difficulty curve exists across the whole of the game. That they want to maintain the bonkers power fantasy that part of the community wants but try to design 'challenging' content for the part of the community that wants it. You know, having their cake and eating it too sort of thing. Again, the most consistent thing about WF is how inconsistent it is.

On a side note, your point on how Star Chart can provide that power fantasy. That is true but honestly that isn't how it plays out most of the times. More times than not the difficult content that is supposed to exist for the players who want it eventually gets nerf and brought down to level that casuals and power creepers want. With some instances where some items get introduced that helps them trivialize the difficult content. Sometimes both. The ammo changes? I agree with you on that, but the side that doesn't want the difficulty and wants everything to be on easy mode? They absolutely flipped their S#&$ over that.

At this point it's just mixed signals and I don't see a good solution out of this for them that does not involve them gaining a pair and actively tell people 'No'. I can see a future where they can play both side but it would require them to essentially say, "Hey, you guys have your power fantasy in the low levels. The guys that want a challenge need their content to play where they can get that itch. If that means you get locked out of rewards cause you don't want to deal with the possibility of losing a match/run, tough. We're not forsaking them to make everything 100% in your favor. Hard mode is going to stay hard." Again, that would require them to say no, but I don't see the Canadians doing that any time soon.

True. They really do try to cater to everyone but it is a formula that really works well enough. We've seen DE test our words by granting our requests and, time and time, players end up asking for a tone down. This is a great way for DE to remain in good and steady PR style communication as each change is met with plenty of player engagement. In that regard, there's no reason for DE to change the formula. Actually saying "no" would be bad long term, IMO.

[PublikDomain]

3 hours ago, PR1D3 said:

I don't think that's Publik's point.

I agree with what Gen is saying (how rare), but yes my point in this thread in particular has mainly been about the inconsistency and the seeming attempt to have-their-cake-and-eat-it-too. Which, unfortunately, just results in less cake for everyone.

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

We've seen DE test our words by granting our requests and, time and time, players end up asking for a tone down.

Well, some do, others don't. "Players" here are not a homogeneous group so it's not really fair to act like everyone is asking for one thing and then suddenly asking for the opposite. Multiple groups are asking for multiple things at the same time. And sometimes DE doesn't grant those requests, like with their refusal to walk back the ammo/Wukong changes despite the loud review bombing. So while you might think there's no reason for them to change the formula, they're constantly doing just that like with the aforementioned ammo/Wukong changes, Duviri, possible return of self damage, etc. But then ofc sometimes they don't, like walking back on Raids despite an overwhelming segment of the playerbase saying they want them back. It's just confusing, which isn't exactly what comes to mind when I think "good and steady PR". To me that means consistent messaging and a clear, well-understood shared vision.

[CephalonCarnage]

The ammo nerf was necessary as the big bang weapons were getting out of hand. There's a difference between the power fantasy and the trivialisation of even harder content because everything is dead before you even know its there. Nerfing the ammo meant you appreciate the big booms more, they could have reduced the damage drastically instead but they (fortunately) didn't. They just nerfed your ability to carpet bomb the map every second.

I think the only other thing they could have done would be to make the big bramma and ogris and similar into archgun-style weapons that you equip for a short time, or with limited ammo and then they're gone. Like the terminator example where he gets the minigun only in necessary sitations and uses the shotgun the rest of the time.

[(NSW)Greybones]

On 2023-07-19 at 10:42 AM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Standard star chart players can experience a safe and wonderful power fantasy where ammo is much less a concern. Steel Path players wanted more challenges so things liked ammo and high defense enemies requires more planning. Mods like Ammo Drum and Shock Absorbers suddenly become more vital in builds than flat out damage. This is a great thing.

It’s not like Steel Path can’t be trivialised as well. The unbalanced challenge it provides is related to how far a player is willing to tweak and refine their build/loadout for the sake of removing it, and players who use Steel Path as the measure of themselves as players aren’t exactly saying “This build feels sufficient for this content; time to use those empty slots in other ways”, otherwise they’d know what risk of death in Arbitrations or anything else in the game even looks like (outside of low-enough content where even modless gear can stomp and someone’d need to equip Decaying and Bleeding Dragon Keys to introduce even a little risk to the fight). And just like in the standard game, all you’d need to do is take a build meant for higher levels into content that isn’t higher level, and Bam, risk be-gone, which is often the point of doing exactly that because of reasons

Edited July 20, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

It’s not like Steel Path can’t be trivialised as well. The unbalanced challenge it provides is related to how far a player is willing to tweak and refine their build/loadout for the sake of removing it, and players who use Steel Path as the measure of themselves as players aren’t exactly saying “This build feels sufficient for this content; time to use those empty slots in other ways”, otherwise they’d know what risk of death in Arbitrations or anything else in the game even looks like (outside of low-enough content where even modless gear can stomp and someone’d need to equip Decaying and Bleeding Dragon Keys to introduce even a little risk to the fight). And just like in the standard game, all you’d need to do is take a build meant for higher levels into content that isn’t higher level, and Bam, risk be-gone, which is often the point of doing exactly that because of reasons

You're right, it can be trivialized but that's at the point of being a fully inventoried, well experienced player (or copying from YouTubers), exactly as it should be (except the YouTuber copying part). Upcoming players, especially ones that are smart enough not to seek guidance for every freakin thing, are not having this same experience. Again, that's a good thing.

 

[Stafelund]

16 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

The ammo nerf was necessary as the big bang weapons were getting out of hand. There's a difference between the power fantasy and the trivialisation of even harder content because everything is dead before you even know its there. Nerfing the ammo meant you appreciate the big booms more, they could have reduced the damage drastically instead but they (fortunately) didn't. They just nerfed your ability to carpet bomb the map every second.

I think the only other thing they could have done would be to make the big bramma and ogris and similar into archgun-style weapons that you equip for a short time, or with limited ammo and then they're gone. Like the terminator example where he gets the minigun only in necessary sitations and uses the shotgun the rest of the time.

Some of those big bang weapons aren't that easy to obtain. As I said, Kuva/Tenet would likely require help from other members which some people don't have the luxury or require proper inventory and equipment, else you'll get your face smashed in by the Sister or Lich. Of course, people can use the power of plat to get what they need, but that is an entirely different matter.

For other players, it may have been easy to work for Kuva and may have gotten it with lower hours into the game, but I got them around hundreds of hours in.

Also, talking about the ammo nerf in general for a moment, with this nerf, came with the Primary/Secondary Merciless becoming bland without its own bonus which used to be increased ammo capacity. Why didn't they add something else for it instead, what happened there?

[(NSW)Greybones]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

You're right, it can be trivialized but that's at the point of being a fully inventoried, well experienced player (or copying from YouTubers), exactly as it should be (except the YouTuber copying part). Upcoming players, especially ones that are smart enough not to seek guidance for every freakin thing, are not having this same experience. Again, that's a good thing.

 

I think it’s a good thing that SP can be trivialised as well with comparatively limited selections of builds and loadouts. All the number-crunching build-crafting loadout-tweaking wasn’t done for the sake of being merely sufficient for the content after all and definitely not for the sake of being any sort of balanced, the goal was to obliterate the content regardless of how limited the ways to do it are.

And once that goal is achieved, peace can descend and the chase for power has an end once the goal has been attained, and players can step back and do something else with the things they’ve earned along the way and the content they’ve unlocked on their journey to the top. They’re no longer endlessly chasing optimisation and aren’t at the mercy of the game undoing their progress, and the grind no longer holds such strong sway where they feel forced to choose between grind or play

[Mieo_Mio]

It's a game built on 10 year old code. For the longer tenured players. (I would like to ask.) From your perspective, was the Plains of Eidolon update a substantial uptick in the issues surrounding warframe?

I played at the initial ps4 release, dropped it, and resumed when Zephyr Prime was released.

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Mieo_Mio

[SneakyErvin]

9 hours ago, Stafelund said:

Some of those big bang weapons aren't that easy to obtain. As I said, Kuva/Tenet would likely require help from other members which some people don't have the luxury or require proper inventory and equipment, else you'll get your face smashed in by the Sister or Lich. Of course, people can use the power of plat to get what they need, but that is an entirely different matter.

For other players, it may have been easy to work for Kuva and may have gotten it with lower hours into the game, but I got them around hundreds of hours in.

Also, talking about the ammo nerf in general for a moment, with this nerf, came with the Primary/Secondary Merciless becoming bland without its own bonus which used to be increased ammo capacity. Why didn't they add something else for it instead, what happened there?

Yes they are all easy to obtain. No reason why they should have a mindless ammo economy when there are options to build around it effectively to make it easy enough to sustain them. Mods are there for a reason. 

Merciless also has its own bonus, it is called improved reload speed. Just as Dex didnt get anything new when holster speed was removed due to it getting naturally baked into baseline holster speed. Dex still has combo duration that is specific to the arcane itself.

It's also odd to read what people consider as required for a power fantasy. Even though what they mostly talk about would be more seen as a god fantasy. It's extra odd when Rambo is used as an example, a character getting severely hurt when having a run in with the local law enforcements and his dealings with it are more realistic than most things seen in movies considering hes special forces and going up against a bunch of small town sheriffs. Punisher is another example of power fantasy, also a dude getting severely beat up and struggles even though he is above regular people in "power". Since that is mostly what a power fantasy is, being able to play that you are more than just human, it doesnt mean everything needs to be trivialized and pose no threat. WF could have a massive power reduction and still stay intact as a power fantasy.

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, Mieo_Mio said:

It's a game built on 10 year old code. For the longer tenured players. (I would like to ask.) From your perspective, was the Plains of Eidolon update a substantial uptick in the issues surrounding warframe?

I played at the initial ps4 release, dropped it, and resumed when Zephyr Prime was released.

Kinda sorta? The fundamental issues existed even before that, but PoE and DE's focus on open worlds was definitely a big directional change that's lasted since. DE has a habit of chasing big new features copied from games they think are cool (Lunaro is Rocket League, Railjack is Sea of Thieves, Liches are Shadow of Mordor, etc.) and that habit certainly hasn't helped in building a cohesive experience. PoE was one of the first big "content islands", and many more came after it, but IMO the fundamental issues really started around the switch from Void Keys to Void Relics.

Back then farming keys and Prime parts was a staple endgame activity, and you had an incentive to push yourself and try because the longer you stayed in a Void mission the more Prime parts you got per key. Efficiency didn't mean speedrunning, efficiency meant endurance. For most of that era you also had limited revives, so you didn't waste them and you picked up your teammates to not waste theirs. So while the game was a lot harder than it is now, it also encouraged teamwork a lot more too. Teamwork meant endurance, and endurance meant reward.

This all changed with Void Relics. Now one "key" equaled one reward, and everyone in the party had to spend a "key" every wave. If you wanted to keep going, you always had to spend more "keys". Now leaving at Wave 5 a hundred times was just as efficient as leaving at Wave 500 once. More rewarding, in fact, because fighting lower level enemies is easier and faster. So everyone started leaving as soon as they could. People stopped fighting higher level enemies as often and didn't need to cooperate or really put in much effort just to get to wave 5 or 20. The incentive to upgrade your chances and the non-generic nature of Relics also encourages rad sharing one key at a time instead of doing a bunch back to back with the same group. This was also around the time they removed limited revives. While it was good that they stopped charging money for revives, the limit did give some weight to death which was lost afterwards. Now revives virtually never run out and we burn them for minor things like reviving a pet or fixing a bug, and your teammates are just as likely to ignore you as they are to pick you up.

With Relics and unlimited revives the game got a lot easier and a lot less cooperative, with a focus on optimizing speed instead of endurance. That focus on speed causes friction whenever someone wants to slow down and have a cooperative challenge, because some people just want to go fast on their own (and the game encourages that).

[Stafelund]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yes they are all easy to obtain. No reason why they should have a mindless ammo economy when there are options to build around it effectively to make it easy enough to sustain them. Mods are there for a reason. 

Merciless also has its own bonus, it is called improved reload speed. Just as Dex didnt get anything new when holster speed was removed due to it getting naturally baked into baseline holster speed. Dex still has combo duration that is specific to the arcane itself.

It's also odd to read what people consider as required for a power fantasy. Even though what they mostly talk about would be more seen as a god fantasy. It's extra odd when Rambo is used as an example, a character getting severely hurt when having a run in with the local law enforcements and his dealings with it are more realistic than most things seen in movies considering hes special forces and going up against a bunch of small town sheriffs. Punisher is another example of power fantasy, also a dude getting severely beat up and struggles even though he is above regular people in "power". Since that is mostly what a power fantasy is, being able to play that you are more than just human, it doesnt mean everything needs to be trivialized and pose no threat. WF could have a massive power reduction and still stay intact as a power fantasy.

Sorry, but no. I wouldn't call them easy to obtain considering you need to be properly equipped and completed a certain quest which for a player who has just started and are just going through the games contents usually, can very likely take many hours into the game. Same part of the game which new players get surprised when they see their lich are no pushovers and sometimes, want to opt out from. Mods, you have to grind for them, unless you have people willing to give you help and hold you through the process, which again not all player can have. If you buy them with plat that's pretty much going for Pay 2 Skip Grind, and that's now a different thing entirely.

Rambo 1, yes. It's not a power fantasy. Hell, it was dramatic. II? One man army taking on an enemy base alone? Definitely.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Stafelund

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

10 hours ago, Mieo_Mio said:

It's a game built on 10 year old code. For the longer tenured players. (I would like to ask.) From your perspective, was the Plains of Eidolon update a substantial uptick in the issues surrounding warframe?

I played at the initial ps4 release, dropped it, and resumed when Zephyr Prime was released.

 

From my experience, no. Honestly, besides Empyrean's initial release, my Warframe experience has always been represented as VERY few bugs in solo or clean internet connection friends but quite a few issues with a host with bad internet. 

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Stafelund said:

Sorry, but no. I wouldn't call them easy to obtain considering you need to be properly equipped and completed a certain quest which for a player who has just started and are just going through the games contents usually, can very likely take many hours into the game. Same part of the game which new players get surprised when they see their lich are no pushovers and sometimes, want to opt out from. Mods, you have to grind for them, unless you have people willing to give you help and hold you through the process, which again not all player can have. If you buy them with plat that's pretty much going for Pay 2 Skip Grind, and that's now a different thing entirely.

Rambo 1, yes. It's not a power fantasy. Hell, it was dramatic. II? One man army taking on an enemy base alone? Definitely.

And they arent for players that just started, there is a progression setup in the game even if it is sandboxy. You have to consider it is a game with 10 years worth of content now and it had around 8 years worth of content when liches released. So they arent actually hard to obtain if you go through the progression that others have. Not everything can cater to new players. So the ammo economy is fine. And the modding is of no concern, since the ammo mutation mods you need are very simple to get, you practically need to do tier 1 survivals for them. AoE guns dont have ammo problems unless you use them for everything i.e wasting them to kill single mobs etc.

[Turritopsis_Dohrnii]

I don't know if I agree that Warframe as a whole is wasted potential since there is still fun to be had in many areas depending on who you are, but I'll have to say that the "New War" was completely wasted potential. I really can't state this enough if wasted potential is a topic anywhere. Warframe's "New War" is actually my go-to when making such an example in other completely unrelated subjects pertaining to potential - even if I have to explain the game as a whole.

It makes for some fantastic small talk and banter with colleagues and friends.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Turritopsis_Dohrnii

[Stafelund]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And they arent for players that just started, there is a progression setup in the game even if it is sandboxy. You have to consider it is a game with 10 years worth of content now and it had around 8 years worth of content when liches released. So they arent actually hard to obtain if you go through the progression that others have. Not everything can cater to new players. So the ammo economy is fine. And the modding is of no concern, since the ammo mutation mods you need are very simple to get, you practically need to do tier 1 survivals for them. AoE guns dont have ammo problems unless you use them for everything i.e wasting them to kill single mobs etc.

I guess it's a matter of perspective, since my point is since it's not easily obtained I'm thinking they should have a leeway of being less affected or not affected with the nerfs. And because I can kinda see with that logic, content from lategame like Zariman, wouldn't stand out and be affected with ammo nerfs because older players have all the gear and progression to easily get what's in there. Just because older players can get them more easily, I don't think they should be nerfed. Progression wise, for me it's bothersome. It would be akin to seeing a lategame gear in a JRPG game and see that it's lackluster. It would be a WTH moment for me.

I can understand this with some weapons that are easier to get throughout the game.

[PR1D3]

On 2023-07-20 at 6:05 PM, PublikDomain said:

Kinda sorta? The fundamental issues existed even before that, but PoE and DE's focus on open worlds was definitely a big directional change that's lasted since. DE has a habit of chasing big new features copied from games they think are cool (Lunaro is Rocket League, Railjack is Sea of Thieves, Liches are Shadow of Mordor, etc.) and that habit certainly hasn't helped in building a cohesive experience. PoE was one of the first big "content islands", and many more came after it, but IMO the fundamental issues really started around the switch from Void Keys to Void Relics.

Back then farming keys and Prime parts was a staple endgame activity, and you had an incentive to push yourself and try because the longer you stayed in a Void mission the more Prime parts you got per key. Efficiency didn't mean speedrunning, efficiency meant endurance. For most of that era you also had limited revives, so you didn't waste them and you picked up your teammates to not waste theirs. So while the game was a lot harder than it is now, it also encouraged teamwork a lot more too. Teamwork meant endurance, and endurance meant reward.

This all changed with Void Relics. Now one "key" equaled one reward, and everyone in the party had to spend a "key" every wave. If you wanted to keep going, you always had to spend more "keys". Now leaving at Wave 5 a hundred times was just as efficient as leaving at Wave 500 once. More rewarding, in fact, because fighting lower level enemies is easier and faster. So everyone started leaving as soon as they could. People stopped fighting higher level enemies as often and didn't need to cooperate or really put in much effort just to get to wave 5 or 20. The incentive to upgrade your chances and the non-generic nature of Relics also encourages rad sharing one key at a time instead of doing a bunch back to back with the same group. This was also around the time they removed limited revives. While it was good that they stopped charging money for revives, the limit did give some weight to death which was lost afterwards. Now revives virtually never run out and we burn them for minor things like reviving a pet or fixing a bug, and your teammates are just as likely to ignore you as they are to pick you up.

With Relics and unlimited revives the game got a lot easier and a lot less cooperative, with a focus on optimizing speed instead of endurance. That focus on speed causes friction whenever someone wants to slow down and have a cooperative challenge, because some people just want to go fast on their own (and the game encourages that).

That's actually interesting. I never though about the Relic system causing the speed running nature of the game. TBH I really hated it and with certain updates it's horrible. I've lost drops in the Zariman cause some guy who's so in a hurry that he refused to sacrifice 4 precious seconds for everyone to get to the elevator even though we were right there, solo extract, cause a host migration, the session goes belly up, and we lose all our drops.

To also tie it back to the original question, it's one of the reasons why I love Bounties among other things I'm about to get into. I believe one of the larger problems that's endemic of the 'content island' issue is that WF as a whole does this. If you were to look at everything the game has to offer, it has a massive sandbox, but it's shallow. However it doesn't have to be that way if they honestly fat trimmed, refined, and layered what they have. Bounties, for example are this. They're simple, but it's multi stage, it uses multiple game modes, it gives multiple drops, and it give bonus drops when you complete performance based secondary objectives. I tend to love the content they do where they use multiple pieces of their sandbox. Bounties, RJ content (including Scarlett Spear), the Circuit. They create something new that may reinvent the wheel, but even the good stuff is stuck in a singular area. Rarely do they do the overlap. Cause honestly do they really need to build brand new stuff? Or would they be better off just fixing and updating older content. They make that Assault game mode and it's only on Kuva Fortress. They made Hijack years ago and updated it once with the Corpus version. For example, instead of having that one defense mission on the Orb Valis with the rover that we trapped, what if that gets converted into a Hijack?

When they put their weight behind updating or creating newer maps that properly suit us, those be solid too. Hot take: Open Worlds are nice but they should honestly not only do more tileset updates but incorporate more active usage of them in a mission. The random gen tiles are actually very large in scope, but we only ever 'play' in a small fraction of it, very few missions use the space, and even those will only use a fraction of what was generated. You'll run into some cool pieces due to medallion hunting or Kuva that are under utilized. And this is just the tip of the iceberg of underutilized tilesets.

"Warframe is a tragedy of wasted potential"

Yes it is. The sad part is that I know DE can do it, they've shown too many instances of it, but they're knee capping themselves in more than one way. Be it their need to make New, New stuff and acquiescing to some of the most brain dead, low iq player "feedback". 

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, Stafelund said:

I guess it's a matter of perspective, since my point is since it's not easily obtained I'm thinking they should have a leeway of being less affected or not affected with the nerfs. And because I can kinda see with that logic, content from lategame like Zariman, wouldn't stand out and be affected with ammo nerfs because older players have all the gear and progression to easily get what's in there. Just because older players can get them more easily, I don't think they should be nerfed. Progression wise, for me it's bothersome. It would be akin to seeing a lategame gear in a JRPG game and see that it's lackluster. It would be a WTH moment for me.

I can understand this with some weapons that are easier to get throughout the game.

They cant balance after personal perspectives. The fact is that when liches were released the weapons were already very easy to get compared to the power progression of the game and where "endgame" players were at during that time. So even if you find them harder to obtain because you arent at the right progression point yet, it doesnt mean they should be shielded from nerfs, since they were released as easily obtained items from the beginning. The "hard" part during the release was the RNG and not being able to see which weapon a larva was going to spawn with when turned into a lich.

Plus the whole point of the nerf was in essence to target the AoE sister and lich weapons specifically. So leaving them out of the nerfing would make no sense at all. Since without them the AoE ammo nerf would have likely never happened.

Edited July 22, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[Stafelund]

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

They cant balance after personal perspectives. The fact is that when liches were released the weapons were already very easy to get compared to the power progression of the game and where "endgame" players were at during that time. So even if you find them harder to obtain because you arent at the right progression point yet, it doesnt mean they should be shielded from nerfs, since they were released as easily obtained items from the beginning. 

There's a problem with this logic, so every content that is situated in the end or later part of the game doesn't deserve a power increase just because they're all easily earned by older players? So those incarnon weapons must receive the same fate then. Unless I'm misunderstanding something and you mean that liches are easier back then. 

Not to mention the AOE does have a place considering how Warframe  actually works as a game. 

[XorianShadow]

I personally do not agree there is no point in grinding thats a bit absurd, mmo likes or mmorpgs where always supposed to be about the journey not just the endgame, and to me there is plenty of endgame if I want the best mods, versions of weapons, and warframes yes at some point it will probably become to easy but then again players like in all games use the most optimial builds and butcher the diffciulty as well. I think for players who dont do those things are fine with it atm, but it could use some changes im sure.

 

I also kind of think maybe some companies dont want to be criticisized for making things more difficult and call it pay to win, I think any decent company has full awareness of how bad the industry can be and probably have a good idea of how things will be recieved.

[XorianShadow]

On 2023-07-20 at 6:52 PM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

From my experience, no. Honestly, besides Empyrean's initial release, my Warframe experience has always been represented as VERY few bugs in solo or clean internet connection friends but quite a few issues with a host with bad internet. 

Same I have a good internection connection and for how much I played Ive ran into very few bugs.

[XorianShadow]

On 2023-07-17 at 1:16 PM, kamisama85 said:

Unfortunately there is no one-size-fits-all solution to this matter. The moment you do this, you will trigger a different vocal minority. The "warframe is supposed to be a power fantasy wahhh" group will be knocking when they can't nuke anymore.

There is a very deliberately blurred definition of "challenging" among these groups on the forum and it usually goes something like:

- its too easy and boring

or

- its tedious and not fun

I knew a guy who cried about how sentients being able to fly around was "annoying" (hard) and "unfun", but I knew he was crying because it was too hard for him to no-brain kill. He wanted sentients to stand still at same eye level so he could shoot them, but at the same time complained warframe is too easy.

These people demanding challenge always speak out of two sides of their mouth. And as soon as its actually challenging, its not fun anymore and it's DE's fault for making something require a few more brain cells. This group will -never- be satisfied and it's not worth the debate.

 

Your right on this one for sure, I see this kind of thing all of the time with people, you never know what kind of person is behind the keyboard, but I will admit mmos do tend to dumb things down to attract more numbers but its a big mistake usually as thats what makes these games die.

[Stafelund]

16 minutes ago, XorianShadow said:

I personally do not agree there is no point in grinding thats a bit absurd, mmo likes or mmorpgs where always supposed to be about the journey not just the endgame, and to me there is plenty of endgame if I want the best mods, versions of weapons, and warframes yes at some point it will probably become to easy but then again players like in all games use the most optimial builds and butcher the diffciulty as well. I think for players who dont do those things are fine with it atm, but it could use some changes im sure.

 

I also kind of think maybe some companies dont want to be criticisized for making things more difficult and call it pay to win, I think any decent company has full awareness of how bad the industry can be and probably have a good idea of how things will be recieved.

The thing is the pay to win in this game is very subjective. If a player pays to get a good gear, since this is a PVE game and the whole system is almost if not exactly built on helping one another, that player with top gear in the end will help everybody. The only problem I can see is "it will make things too easy and ruin others that are looking for a challenge" and if it's a bother that can be remedied by playing solo or getting a squad that doesn't have those, public is where anything goes, you roll a dice and get to join with random people who play what they like. People will discover a "broken", or optimized combo and you have people being up in all arms about it.

Besides, AOE isn't like WuClone where the whole premise of the game is absolutely ruined since it's pretty much automation which doesn't belong in any game that has an active gameplay,  and with AOE there's player actions involved with it even if it's lessened by a small margin plus players worked their way up there getting the mods and weapons required to get there, which is Warframe's core gameplay and system is all about. Not to mention the nerf seemed to have harmed rather than help; besides those boom boom weapons there are other stuff that were affected like Basmu and before the review bomb, Bubonico.

And I'd like to ask @SneakyErvin about those points, of what he thinks about this as well as why Warframe has nerfing to begin with, because in a PVE game where all players' actions benefit others in the end, I don't see the point of nerfing things at all besides the "making things too easy" that seems like a poor reason IMO and just divides away from players who like doing what they do (and in the end, players can bring what they want) and it seems like it should be solved by doing something different besides crippling a weapon.

[XorianShadow]

38 minutes ago, Stafelund said:

The thing is the pay to win in this game is very subjective. If a player pays to get a good gear, since this is a PVE game and the whole system is almost if not exactly built on helping one another, that player with top gear in the end will help everybody. The only problem I can see is "it will make things too easy and ruin others that are looking for a challenge" and if it's a bother that can be remedied by playing solo or getting a squad that doesn't have those, public is where anything goes, you roll a dice and get to join with random people who play what they like. People will discover a "broken", or optimized combo and you have people being up in all arms about it.

Besides, AOE isn't like WuClone where the whole premise of the game is absolutely ruined since it's pretty much automation which doesn't belong in any game that has an active gameplay,  and with AOE there's player actions involved with it even if it's lessened by a small margin plus players worked their way up there getting the mods and weapons required to get there, which is Warframe's core gameplay and system is all about. Not to mention the nerf seemed to have harmed rather than help; besides those boom boom weapons there are other stuff that were affected like Basmu and before the review bomb, Bubonico.

And I'd like to ask @SneakyErvin about those points, of what he thinks about this as well as why Warframe has nerfing to begin with, because in a PVE game where all players' actions benefit others in the end, I don't see the point of nerfing things at all besides the "making things too easy" that seems like a poor reason IMO and just divides away from players who like doing what they do (and in the end, players can bring what they want) and it seems like it should be solved by doing something different besides crippling a weapon.

It doesnt matter what our opinions of pay to win are I am making the statement that others will likely twist it if a game suddenly becomes more challenging and will call it pay to win.. I didnt respond to debate pay to win with you.

[Stafelund]

1 hour ago, XorianShadow said:

It doesnt matter what our opinions of pay to win are I am making the statement that others will likely twist it if a game suddenly becomes more challenging and will call it pay to win.. I didnt respond to debate pay to win with you.

Right, and I'm just saying that Warframe being P2W is something that's really hard to treat as considering how everything here barring cosmetics is obtainable without even paying, and the game doesn't pit players against one another and it's always team work oriented in the end. I am free to respond to your notion, and you are free to respond to mine, continue discussing from here or not.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Stafelund

[SneakyErvin]

11 hours ago, Stafelund said:

There's a problem with this logic, so every content that is situated in the end or later part of the game doesn't deserve a power increase just because they're all easily earned by older players? So those incarnon weapons must receive the same fate then. Unless I'm misunderstanding something and you mean that liches are easier back then. 

Not to mention the AOE does have a place considering how Warframe  actually works as a game. 

Of course they deserve a power increase. I dont see how you arrived to that from me saying their ammo economy isnt really a problem. Kuva and Tenet weapons have massive benefits compared to their base versions (if they have one) or are simply stronger than similar weapons within their type. Large amounts of extra capacity, high damage, an element of your choice and so on. And yes, incarnon could face the same fate if seen as appropriate and needed, all items can recieve the same fate if needed.

Of course it does, you just shouldnt use it for every single encounter. And in the content they are most suited for, they have absolutely no ammo issues whatsoever. Even those with the smallest total ammo pool are extremely hard to ever run out of ammo on. And if you want AoE for everything, there are options in all your weapon slots to fill that need, some very forgiving on ammo and still dealing very respectable damage.

11 hours ago, Stafelund said:

The thing is the pay to win in this game is very subjective. If a player pays to get a good gear, since this is a PVE game and the whole system is almost if not exactly built on helping one another, that player with top gear in the end will help everybody. The only problem I can see is "it will make things too easy and ruin others that are looking for a challenge" and if it's a bother that can be remedied by playing solo or getting a squad that doesn't have those, public is where anything goes, you roll a dice and get to join with random people who play what they like. People will discover a "broken", or optimized combo and you have people being up in all arms about it.

Besides, AOE isn't like WuClone where the whole premise of the game is absolutely ruined since it's pretty much automation which doesn't belong in any game that has an active gameplay,  and with AOE there's player actions involved with it even if it's lessened by a small margin plus players worked their way up there getting the mods and weapons required to get there, which is Warframe's core gameplay and system is all about. Not to mention the nerf seemed to have harmed rather than help; besides those boom boom weapons there are other stuff that were affected like Basmu and before the review bomb, Bubonico.

And I'd like to ask @SneakyErvin about those points, of what he thinks about this as well as why Warframe has nerfing to begin with, because in a PVE game where all players' actions benefit others in the end, I don't see the point of nerfing things at all besides the "making things too easy" that seems like a poor reason IMO and just divides away from players who like doing what they do (and in the end, players can bring what they want) and it seems like it should be solved by doing something different besides crippling a weapon.

To me there is no trace of P2W. There just is no one to win over since everyone works together and everything is shared when we do play together, everyone is rewarded equally and so on for a mission. If this was a MMO where we might compete over farm spots then P2W could be considered a thing, since those that might buy gear would have an easier time stealing mobs and out farm others in the area etc. But even there it is an extreme leap since it is just PvE. If PvP was involved, so you effectively kill for your spot, then yeah it would be clear P2W since you would effectively win over someone else and benefit from paying.

While AoE isnt like Curious George Cloney it is still bad overall for the game due to how accessible it is with nearly no downside. It simply makes it boring for 3/4 member in a group mostly because no one but one player does anything. This doesnt stop at weapons since there are massive abusers that are frames aswell. Just look at Kullervo that practically turns any single target option into a massively overpowered AoE by just covering everything with a curse. I'm not sure what you talk about regarding "small margin". Do you mean only a small margin has mods to support/counter the ammo nerf? No, everyone has those things available since they come from bloody T1 survival and if you cant be arsed to do that someone is likely handing them out like free candy since they are just that common. I also gotta ask, how was Basmu affected?

PvE doesnt mean that balance isnt needed. Heck it is just as needed as in any other type of game since balance brings more engagement to the gameplay. Also, we've had zero weapon in the game getting crippled. There are few things at all that have gotten crippled in the game.