Can DE fix overguard already? And Gas damage too?

[Silligoose]

6 hours ago, trst said:

Except the major problem with addressing the issue itself is now the community and DE's own approach at a "power fantasy".

I mean just look at any nerf targeted at players and you'll see the problem. The community freaks out every time a nerf is directed at them (even when it has a near net zero impact on gameplay) and most often to the point that DE pulls back on the change. Or DE's own approach in not fully committing to nerfs to the point of actually solving the problem, eventual powercreep additions that're far stronger than pre-nerfed gear, or their continued nerfs/removals of enemy mechanics.

Rebalancing player mechanics simply isn't a valid approach for DE. At least not without them willing to take some major risks while also clashing with their own ten years of design. And even if they did want to take that risk just how many times could the game survive massive backlashes and continually angering/alienating the playerbase they curated?

You were the one who stated: "it makes sense to take extreme measures to manage extreme mechanics.", but when I point out how ridiculous and unnecessary that extreme measure is, you argue addressing the issue directly is going to be a major problem, all the while ignoring the points I made, which also highlighted less extreme indirect measures?

The issue is less about whether a mechanic is addressed directly and more about how the issue is actually addressed and why the issue is addressed. With Overguard, the issue was addressed for a good reason - cc is overpowered, is essentially breaking the game and intervention is required. It was addressed indirectly. It was, however, addressed poorly, ended up being a band-aid fix and player feedback was, and apparently still is, negative. It being an indirect nerf has little to do with the reception. It is the how and the why that matter more and let's be honest: DE rarely nerfs something because the upper limits of power is too high. 

Sure, addressing player mechanics is risky and can lead to players quitting, but it does not clash with DE's design. You can go back 7, 8 ,9 years and you'll find DE was changing player mechanics back then as well. Leaving imbalances unchecked is risky and can lead to players quitting because there is no challenge, which leads to disengagement and boredom (not "burnout" as PR would say, it is boredom). It seems DE is pushed into dedicating a lot of time and resources working on gameplay pivots or "add-ons", not really considered Warframe gameplay, because of unchecked imbalances that prevent them from providing balanced, deep, challenging frame content. That too is risky.

Due to Warframe's structure, mechanics and balance in progression towards lategame and endgame, it attracts a wide spectrum of players ranging from those who enjoy being gods stomping on mortals, to those who enjoy feeling like gods overcoming even more powerful gods that can kill them if they are slacking. That, by the way, is power fantasy - something that makes players feel powerful, regardless of whether a game is easy or hard. Due to DE's seemingly aimless vision, they manage to alienate a massive portion of that spectrum:

• They alienate players who thought they were building to a challenging climax in endgame, by eliminating challenge by way of imbalances and refusing to balance endgame to be more challenging in an optional mode for those who would enjoy it.
• They alienate players who enjoyed having no real challenge by making mainline quests such as TNW, more challenging than lategame or endgame, frustrating those players.
•  They alienate players between the two extremes by implementing things like Overguard that disproportionately nerfs cc-frames.
• They alienate players who are here for frame play, aka actual Warframe, by focussing on add-on content whilst leaving actual Warframe content and balance neglected.
• They even alienated players who enjoyed Operator for the Void Dash, nerfing it for no real good reason. The only reason that really mattered was it "removing the jank", which it didn't do.
• They alienate players who worked towards improving their gear to do x2, x5, x10 more damage, by saying "Oh no no no no no no, you don't get to do that extra damage against the enemies that actually matter, because we have hidden damage reduction formulas known as damage attenuation that makes sure that the extra damage you thought you were going to do isn't actually what you get to do.".

I have no idea why DE does these things. but Warframe still doing well is a testament to how good the foundations of the base game are. Yes, it could be better (DE for the love of all that is holy also address the poor energy economy and abysmal modding system UI for new players). Yes, psychological "encouragement" such as FOMO and the sunk cost fallacy aids in popularity and retention, but boy the base game is solid. DE just needs to figure what other developers figured out decades ago: Games can offer levels of challenge from easy to nightmarish to satisfy the vast spectrum of players that enjoy varied levels of difficulty. You want to release another frame that is unkillable for 30+ seconds withthe press of a button? Have at it, but keep those mechanics in easy mode. You want to nerf cc to make the game more challenging? Ok, nerf it, but do it right, do it in an optional hard mode and delete this Overguard trash from the game entirely. It was waste of time and resources. Then you can start deleting the other poor mechanics that shouldn't be in here either, such as damage attenuation.

[Tiltskillet]

12 minutes ago, nslay said:

But what do I know? I can't even understand EHP and one shotting or using finisher mods like you. I am just some chump idiot maxing a lot of the melee weapons though stealth finishers in the game over hundreds of hours. I am just imagining Eximus stealth kills uniquely breaking stealth affinity multiplier. 

lol.  Sorry, I was just relating what I see.  I really didn't mean to insult you.  I didn't take offense when you asked me if I even knew what a one shot was. 

Anyway, was there a particular weapon you noted this with especially?  Was this ever using Savage Silence to "unalert" alerted enemies?

[nslay]

1 minute ago, Tiltskillet said:

lol.  Sorry, I was just relating what I see.  I really didn't mean to insult you.  I didn't take offense when you asked me if I even knew what a one shot was. 

Anyway, was there a particular weapon you noted this with especially?  Was this ever using Savage Silence to "unalert" alerted enemies?

When you were talking about EHP and Eximus having more of it with Overguard, I thought maybe you were thinking I wasn't killing the enemy in the finisher. Although that wouldn't break the affinity multiplier itself... just make the enemy alert.

And with Finisher mods, thought maybe you were thinking I wasn't using those either. I am not the best at the game, but I'm not completely clueless either. Sorry about some of my comments.

With regard to your question, I was just using Loki to walk around invisible and stealth kill. I do use his special silent weapons augment but that wouldn't apply to melees. Nothing special. I don't remember the vast array of melee weapons I used, but these were MR fodder stuff. Many were unpotato'd and not good enough to stealth kill in SP Sedna Spy so I just ran it in normal.

 

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, nslay said:

Sorry about some of my comments.

No problem.

1 hour ago, nslay said:

With regard to your question, I was just using Loki to walk around invisible and stealth kill. I do use his special silent weapons augment but that wouldn't apply to melees. Nothing special. I don't remember the vast array of melee weapons I used, but these were MR fodder stuff. Many were unpotato'd and not good enough to stealth kill in SP Sedna Spy so I just ran it in normal.

I'll look into this more later.

[nslay]

24 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

No problem.

I'll look into this more later.

But you know, DE changes stuff... what I observed may have changed or been fixed since I maxed all those MR fodder weapons. This was a while ago like when Eximus rework just landed.

I remember arguing with someone that Reave did adaptive damage and was affected by armor on some enemies... and by gosh it used to! Sentients would display a Corrosive adaptation icon when you Reaved them some time ago and enemies like SP Corrupted Bombards just wouldn't die in one shot with 100% life drain for a time too! Figured that was related to Reave doing adaptive damage and their massive armor.

But then DE changed something...

I also had an argument about multishot behavior on beam weapons... DE changed something because, for years, multishot didn't work as expected on beam weapons. Then DE changed something! That one I had to dig up old Warframe wiki edits to find evidence that this used to be the case!

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, nslay said:

But you know, DE changes stuff... what I observed may have changed or been fixed since I maxed all those MR fodder weapons. This was a while ago like when Eximus rework just landed.

So one of the things I recall from that time was some weirdness with Eximus, where some of them would be pre-alerted.  And not only that, they could target their specials (but not regular attacks) on Ivara as if they could see through Prowl.  That did get fixed eventually, or at least I haven't seen it in a very long time.

There was other stuff too, but that's one I remember pretty well.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

10 hours ago, nslay said:

Did so. It's inconsistent, but it seems a single damage instance that can ordinarily one-shot an enemy without Overguard can cause the enemy to become alert when Overguard first depletes before it finally kills off the enemy completely.

It's most prominent with stealth kills with ranged weapons, but can uncommonly happen with melee stealth finishers too. You can use a finisher on an unalerted Eximus, successfully kill it in one shot and still lose your 5x affinity multiplier as a result... In other words, the game counts it as killing an alerted enemy even though - and without using any special ability or augment - you were given the prompt to stealth finish the enemy under completely normal stealth gameplay conditions.

 

10 hours ago, nslay said:

Shotguns and similar are definitely gimped at stealth in general due to the multishot, but even a modless single projectile weapon like a bow can break stealth affinity multiplier when one-shotting an Eximus... and yes, the damage is well above Eximus EHP... did you even try to reproduce this? Do you not know what it means to one-shot an Eximus? That means the damage done is well above its EHP.

Yes, Stealth with Overguard is actually broken. And it's very annoying!

 

9 hours ago, nslay said:

The majority of my MR30 tour was spent using Loki in Sedna Spy (not even SP) to max a lot of the melee weapons though stealth finishers. All of those weapons were built with, among others, Finisher mods and they had no problem one-shotting everything, including Eximus! But uncommonly, even stealth finishing an Eximus would cause me to lose the affinity multiplier... my hypothesis for this is as written above. 

But what do I know? I can't even understand EHP and one shotting or using finisher mods like you. I am just some chump idiot maxing a lot of the melee weapons though stealth finishers in the game over hundreds of hours. I am just imagining Eximus stealth kills uniquely breaking stealth affinity multiplier. 

Melee stealth killing with finishers against eximus is not broken. Most melees stealth leveling thru Adaro don't even need any finisher mods equipped to 1-stab eximus units at that level. I literally put 3 mods in everytime when I level a new melee. None of them finisher mods. Start getting higher levels past 50 at least, then yeah, some melees right out the gate can't 1-stab eximus. Though even then, you won't lose your 5x multiplier unless you stabbed again, which probably ends up actually being a mercy kill, in which case you will lose your 5x.

[nslay]

10 hours ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

Melee stealth killing with finishers against eximus is not broken. Most melees stealth leveling thru Adaro don't even need any finisher mods equipped to 1-stab eximus units at that level. I literally put 3 mods in everytime when I level a new melee. None of them finisher mods. Start getting higher levels past 50 at least, then yeah, some melees right out the gate can't 1-stab eximus. Though even then, you won't lose your 5x multiplier unless you stabbed again, which probably ends up actually being a mercy kill, in which case you will lose your 5x.

And yet it actually happened to me enough to dispute you and @Tiltskillet because something isn't or wasn't right with Overguard and stealth finishers. 

The mods don't matter. That @Tiltskillet was talking about EHP or Finisher mods absolutely doesn't matter at all. The experience of the prompted Stealth Finisher one-shot (which means the finisher damage was enough to kill the enemy... so the mods and EHP don't matter) and subsequent loss of the affinity multiplier is all that matters to me... because it was very annoying to lose the affinity multiplier inconsistently on Eximus when ranking loads of MR fodder weapons! So annoying that here I am on this hill... I will fight you to perpetuity. This happened to me!

[(XBOX)Rez090]

46 minutes ago, nslay said:

@Tiltskillet

The mods don't matter. That @Tiltskillet was talking about EHP or Finisher mods absolutely doesn't matter at all. The experience of the prompted Stealth Finisher one-shot (which means the finisher damage was enough to kill the enemy... so the mods and EHP don't matter)

You do realize that the EHP quite literally does matter. To 1-stab, the finisher damage does have to be higher than the EHP. The only things I can think of that might have caused your "issue" is either you didn't actually have finisher damage higher than the EHP or your Loki is somehow messing you up.

[Traumtulpe]

2 hours ago, nslay said:

So annoying that here I am on this hill... I will fight you to perpetuity. This happened to me!

Personally I have experienced that finishers with multiple hits (this depends on weapon and on front/back finisher!) tend to break the stealth multiplier.

You might be killing the enemy in one finisher, but if the finisher first kicks the enemies knees and then smacks him over the head, he'll "see" you in between.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[nslay]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

You do realize that the EHP quite literally does matter. To 1-stab, the finisher damage does have to be higher than the EHP. The only things I can think of that might have caused your "issue" is either you didn't actually have finisher damage higher than the EHP or your Loki is somehow messing you up.

These details don't matter because I told you the Eximus died in the prompted Stealth Finisher attack... it's a given that it's dead from the finisher attack when the affinity multiplier inconsistently falls off. Furthermore, if it didn't die, the affinity multiplier couldn't have been broken... it has to die in an alerted state to break the affinity multiplier. Paradoxically, under completely normal and unassisted conditions, you can't even get a prompt to perform a finisher on an alerted enemy.

You know what, I will do some more of these Sedna Spy runs. Maybe I can build some melee fodder weapons for SP Circuit. If I see it again with any weapon, I will do my best to reproduce and record it and then you can tell me what I did wrong. If it really doesn't happen now, then all the better!

[(XBOX)O37GEKKO]

On 2023-07-18 at 11:34 PM, Traumtulpe said:

they messed up and made Gas useless,

no. gas is gas

[nslay]

Just had the opposite occur in SP Circuit with Paracesis on Revenant. Was swarmed with dozens of enemies and did a Mercy Kill finisher when prompted on a fully alerted Eximus and got a Stealth Affinity multiplier bonus for that 🤣 I don't know how to reproduce that!

Maybe it's more of an Eximus problem than an Overguard problem.