Can DE fix overguard already? And Gas damage too?

[Traumtulpe]

By the way, completely CC immune enemies are perfectly fine - as long as their attacks are telegraphed and dodgeable, or melee only.

Making hitscan instakill enemies also immune to abilities is a bit... not smart, let's call it that.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I suppose given the sheer number of abilities in the game now, it must be a nightmare to correctly program Overguard's response to every single one of them, so there's bound to be one or two inconsistencies; ideally it should reduce any damage dealt by the ability and negate any CC/special effects entirely until the Overguard is removed, so Dread Ward should by rights do damage to Overguard but perhaps not grant Garuda her Dread Ward. at the very least you could use her 1 if the Overguard is *almost* gone but not quite to get rid of it fully, then the next cast will work as normal and provide a Dread Ward.

as for gas.. it's still in a better place than Blast damage... we could really use a rework to some of the complex elements, mainly Blast, Magnetic and Gas in order of priority.

 

[Silligoose]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

By the way, completely CC immune enemies are perfectly fine - as long as their attacks are telegraphed and dodgeable, or melee only.

Making hitscan instakill enemies also immune to abilities is a bit... not smart, let's call it that.

Why erode gameplay depth to such a degree by making enemies completely immune to cc for no real good reason? 

It would be a bad design choice for enemies such as Eximus to be completely immune to cc. Even now with Eximus being immune to the majority off cc, it shows it is a bad design choice: It negates the survivability tools of some of the squishier frames out there. It further highlights the discrepancy in durability between different frames. It results in shallower gameplay overall.

There are a lot of things DE could've looked into regarding cc's overpowered nature, ranging from partially reducing cc effectiveness in terms of time and/or intensity, to improving AI to not blindly walk into cc, but instead they appeared to go for the option that required the least amount of work or thought, despite the negative impact it has on the game.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Silligoose

[Tiltskillet]

17 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

There are a lot of things DE could've looked into regarding cc's overpowered nature, ranging from partially reducing cc effectiveness in terms of time and/or intensity . . .

And DE even uses these strategies in some instances.  Bosses get reduced CC duration with repeat applications; a few abilities like Bastille and Tornado apply a slow to targets immune to their main CC.

I do recall Pablo saying they looked into decreased duration and effectiveness, but that it didn't make enough difference.   I can see some truth in that, but I feel they didn't look hard enough or are leaving some key parts of the story out.

[Stafelund]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

No it didn't 

Eh, semi-broke it. Unless your melee is nicely modded (with formas, potatoes and everything) on Sedna those eximii won't be dropping dead soon from your stealth kills unlike back then where if you go with the basics of powering them up you'll be able to kill them.

Ontopic, I'd honestly take something else other than overguard. More eximus variety, other than we have right now + dynamic spawns? More interesting/threatening eximus at higher levels, simple ones at lower levels. I think there can something else than Shock/Arson/Guardian etc. eximus variants.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

1 hour ago, Stafelund said:

Eh, semi-broke it. Unless your melee is nicely modded (with formas, potatoes and everything) on Sedna those eximii won't be dropping dead soon from your stealth kills unlike back then where if you go with the basics of powering them up you'll be able to kill them.

I can literally take an unranked, no potato, no forma melee, only put in a stance mod and the sacrificial mods, maybe a 60 element too, and backstab eximus units just fine. Are you not running an actual stealth frame then?

[trst]

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Why erode gameplay depth to such a degree by making enemies completely immune to cc for no real good reason? 

It would be a bad design choice for enemies such as Eximus to be completely immune to cc. Even now with Eximus being immune to the majority off cc, it shows it is a bad design choice: It negates the survivability tools of some of the squishier frames out there. It further highlights the discrepancy in durability between different frames. It results in shallower gameplay overall.

There are a lot of things DE could've looked into regarding cc's overpowered nature, ranging from partially reducing cc effectiveness in terms of time and/or intensity, to improving AI to not blindly walk into cc, but instead they appeared to go for the option that required the least amount of work or thought, despite the negative impact it has on the game.

You'd be correct in a vacuum, but given the reality of CC being able to indefinitely disable enemies it makes sense to take extreme measures to manage extreme mechanics. And the inability to CC some enemies in a mission is irrelevant regarding frame durability when every frame has access to survivability mechanics outside their base stats and abilities.

As for alternatives to outright immunity reduced effectiveness doesn't matter when we'd still be able to manage an indefinite uptime on the abilities. Adaptive immunity doesn't do anything without a considerable durability buff as Eximus still die too quickly. And AI improvements don't work as there'd be no meaningful decision an AI could make vs abilities that cover entire rooms and their very short life expectancies; running into a room and firing at the nearest target is the best decision they can make.

 

The only problem with the entire thing is that CC immunity came several years too late. But that doesn't excuse the potential design problems CC creates.

The real solution would be entire mechanic overhauls but now we're talking about a full game rework.

[Stafelund]

On 2023-07-19 at 9:24 AM, (XBOX)Rez090 said:

I can literally take an unranked, no potato, no forma melee, only put in a stance mod and the sacrificial mods, maybe a 60 element too, and backstab eximus units just fine. Are you not running an actual stealth frame then?

I was using Ivara but I remember building the weapon for status, it was just an MR fodder so I just built it for pure status increase and ofc serration was there.

[Hexerin]

On 2023-07-18 at 8:36 AM, Nok-Rntha said:

Reminder that switching between voidspawn and Frame used to be instant, but due to a 'bug', there's now a delay

Oh, is that why there's this jank delay sometimes that prevents me from tossing down Wellspring and immediately returning to my frame?

20 minutes ago, Stafelund said:

I was using Ivara but I remember building the weapon for status, it was just an MR fodder so I just built it for pure status increase and ofc serration was there.

What type of melee weapon?

[Stafelund]

1 minute ago, Hexerin said:

What type of melee weapon?

IIRC it was Hirudo

Edited July 20, 2023 by Stafelund

[ReddyDisco]

On 2023-07-18 at 8:43 PM, Traumtulpe said:

Those damn players are gonna like Void Sling one day! Oops, wrong topic.

This hurts deep, i miss void dash so much

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, Stafelund said:

I was using Ivara but I remember building the weapon for status, it was just an MR fodder so I just built it for pure status increase and ofc serration was there.

 

2 hours ago, Stafelund said:

IIRC it was Hirudo

A status built Hirudo does sound pretty bad for stealth kills, particularly if you didn't have Finishing Touch.  Average stealth multiplier, very low base damage of 130. 

[Hexerin]

2 hours ago, Stafelund said:

IIRC it was Hirudo

 

48 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

A status built Hirudo does sound pretty bad for stealth kills, particularly if you didn't have Finishing Touch.  Average stealth multiplier, very low base damage of 130. 

This is correct. Contrary to established video game logic, the traditional assassin weapons like daggers and such are actually horrible for stealth kills in Warframe. What you want is hammers or scythes (including heavy scythes).

[Traumtulpe]

3 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

traditional assassin weapons like daggers

To be fair, daggers weren't used because they are particularly good at killing people; They were used because they were legal to purchase (when swords were not), and easy to conceal - neither of which are a consideration in Warframe.

If you wanted to kill a magical creature with steel skin and no internal organs (Grineer, functionally), you probably wouldn't choose a dagger for the job. A Big spiked hammer sounds more like it.

[taiiat]

if we classified CC effects into 'Tiers" so to speak, we could have something actually consistent. if we had uh, idunno, 4 'Tiers' of CC, and Overguard protected Enemies against Tier 3 and 4, but not 1 and 2 - well that would be a consistent way of classifying things and going forwards the Player would be able to have an expectation of what types of things would or would not work.
without having to try every permutation first and just finding out the hard way if something doesn't work.

maybe we need more than 4 groups, i didn't put any thought into how many distinct types of CC we have insofar as ranking them on a scale based on how "severe" they are. we have Staggers, Slows, timed Animations, Incapacitations, Et Cetera.
all of these things should be ranked on a scale and broken up into groups to be able to make things consistent.

 

On 2023-07-18 at 9:54 AM, Schwitzer said:

Best way to fix Overguard: delete it. 

nah, that would be like deleting Overshields or deleting DR or all sorts of other things.

this is a tool the game can use, and it's better that we represent things this way than the far less consistent way so many things had been represented in the game before.
the game is better off with Overguard existing than not, because Digital Extremes does the same types of things anyways, but WITH Overguard we have an actually visually present telegraph rather than the Mechanics all being secret and hidden from the Player.

 

if we wanted to delete something, it would be the like, what is it now, almost a Dozen types of arbitrary Special DR? none of these things are telegraphed at all. the only way to know what's going on is to reverse engineer it from testing and then read that back outside of the game.

[Schwitzer]

Admittedly, my "delete Overguard" comment was a bit tongue-in-cheek. However, I would like it revised. I think it would be better if it behaved as scaling adaption that progressively kicks in the longer an Overguarded unit is CC'd. That would be better than having them totally immune to CC from the onset, while still preventing infinite cheese. 

[TheGodofWiFi]

On 2023-07-18 at 10:08 PM, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Then you'll have to deal with all of the limbo users....

That bandwagon has long been rotting away in a derelict stable for years at this point. You're a bit late.

Limbo users were never that bad.

[Tiltskillet]

6 hours ago, Hexerin said:

This is correct. Contrary to established video game logic, the traditional assassin weapons like daggers and such are actually horrible for stealth kills in Warframe. What you want is hammers or scythes (including heavy scythes).

Well daggers aren't so bad.Covert Lethality helps make up for their bad stealth multiplier, and the worst base damage Dagger still has better base damage than Hirudo.

Other weapons like hammers are far superior, but a dagger like Karyst Prime or Innodem has a  decent ceiling.

6 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

f you wanted to kill a magical creature with steel skin and no internal organs (Grineer, functionally), you probably wouldn't choose a dagger for the job. A Big spiked hammer sounds more like it.

They did say "video game logic" which implies they know it's a trope, not irrefutable logic.

Besides, now you'll have to explain why, when needing to destroy several of those same magical steel organ-less creatures at once, we'd be much better off with a dagger than that same big  hammer.  :P

[(XBOX)Rez090]

12 hours ago, Stafelund said:

 and ofc pressure point

fixed ur mistake

[gamingchair1121]

4 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

That bandwagon has long been rotting away in a derelict stable for years at this point. You're a bit late.

Limbo users were never that bad.

I think they meant users in the sense of the different ways people use him

kinda like how wukong mains use the staff and the users use the clone and afk, limbo mains enjoy playing him and synergizing his abilities while avoiding disrupting the squad, but the users either don't care or actively try to troll

[(PSN)ARC_Paroe]

DE could fix gas by just making it ignore shields. iirc it only visually stacks to 10, but like electricity and toxin it will continue to stack past that point. The reason it only shows ten is because unlike fire which has a TOTAL duration electricity, gas, and toxin have individual timers that dont get reset.

[Traumtulpe]

29 minutes ago, (PSN)ARC_Paroe said:

iirc it only visually stacks to 10, but like electricity and toxin it will continue to stack past that point

And how did you come to this completely wrong and unfounded conclusion? It caps at 10 stacks, at which point new procs will replace old ones.

Please do not spread misinformation. Someone at DE will think "oh well there is this one person saying X and this other person saying Y, I guess we'll just continue to sit on our hands and do nothing about these game breaking bugs then".

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2023-07-18 at 3:50 PM, Silligoose said:

Why erode gameplay depth to such a degree by making enemies completely immune to cc for no real good reason? 

It would be a bad design choice for enemies such as Eximus to be completely immune to cc. Even now with Eximus being immune to the majority off cc, it shows it is a bad design choice: It negates the survivability tools of some of the squishier frames out there. It further highlights the discrepancy in durability between different frames. It results in shallower gameplay overall.

There are a lot of things DE could've looked into regarding cc's overpowered nature, ranging from partially reducing cc effectiveness in terms of time and/or intensity, to improving AI to not blindly walk into cc, but instead they appeared to go for the option that required the least amount of work or thought, despite the negative impact it has on the game.

Does Eximus CC immunity really reduce squishy frames' survivability to the depth you're speaking though? Not even close, IMO. In fact, one could argue that those very few squishy CC frames....wait, which squishy frames are we even talking about? I honestly cannot think of a frame that is so fragile that they can't target the few only moving enemies and take them out. If a player cannot take on 1-3 moving enemies then that player really needs to improve. 

Second, you guys keep talking about a.i. improvements as if you don't even understand what you're looking at when you shoot. The enemies look for cover, gather near nullifiers, strafe, toss well placed grenades try to disarm you, etc. Do you even understand you are a lightning fast moving monster with insane powers and wide ranging weapons that can wipe an entire map in an instant. I swear, that has ALWAYS been the weakest talking point guys come up with. Good luck to the enemies trying to "dodge" a map wide Frost avalanche, Mag's pull, Zephyr's tornados, a massive freakin bursting glass wall, a meteor shower that targets you, etc. 😂

Finally, you mentioned eroding gameplay depth. Dude, it's the opposite. That's exactly why you're complaining about it. Because of the Eximus units, we now have to look for strong auras, listen for ability cues and learn their weaknesses and patterns to counter. Enemies taking less damage? CC them, hunt down the shield sharing dude and bust his head open...THEN destroy everybody. Fire blast dude acting up? Roll through it and nail him. This is increased depth: more thinking, better timing needs, smarter shooting, rethinking loadouts, reserving heavy attacks and less "E" spamming. So, what is this madness you speak of?

[(PSN)ARC_Paroe]

4 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

And how did you come to this completely wrong and unfounded conclusion? It caps at 10 stacks, at which point new procs will replace old ones.

Please do not spread misinformation. Someone at DE will think "oh well there is this one person saying X and this other person saying Y, I guess we'll just continue to sit on our hands and do nothing about these game breaking bugs then".

"iirc" means if i remember correctly. Because i remember how toxin and electricity worked, i thought i remembered thats how gas worked. 
Electricity works by: Multiple instances of the effect can stack with each instance having its own timer.
Toxin works by: Multiple instances of the effect can stack on the same target, with each instance having its own timer, but only up to 10 tick numbers are actually shown, the rest are hidden to save performance.

So you understand why i thought gas worked similarly to the other two DoT effects that arent fire. Its wierd as frag that gas works completely differently. Heres how gas works, by the way, which is a lot of the reason why it freakin sucks.
 Up to 10 instances of the effect can stack on the same target, with each instance having its own timer. Any instances after the 10th will replace the oldest instance.
DE could probably fix gas by making it consistent with either toxin or fire...

[Traumtulpe]

2 hours ago, (PSN)ARC_Paroe said:

DE could probably fix gas by making it consistent with either toxin or fire.

Exactly! And this includes uncapping the status effect, and increasing the DoT damage by the % of Heat+Toxin mods on the weapon. Because right now in the game, if you have Gas on the weapon (Heat+Toxin) and then remove either of the Heat, or Toxin mod, the remaining element's DoT will do higher damage (because it does scale with the mod percentage). You can literally increase your damage by 60% to 165% by removing a mod, that's how bad gas is. Even before considering the 10 proc cap.

4 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Does Eximus CC immunity really reduce squishy frames' survivability to the depth you're speaking though? Not even close, IMO.

You are talking out of your ass. DE literally buffed Mesmer skin to include invincibility periods because eximus units were "making the ability useless" due to not getting stunned by it and thus depleting the charges fast. It of course still absorbed the specified amount of hits, it just didn't stun them to prevent quick charge loss. They said this straight up.

CC frames are affected far worse - their stuns don't work either,, but they absorb zero hits. Overguard makes their abilities 100% useless. Only difference here is, DE needed to sell Revenant Prime at the time (they were really pushing him hard, they even gave him an exclusive 50% ability strength mod - which most other warframes would love to be able to use).