Can DE fix overguard already? And Gas damage too?

[Traumtulpe]

• Ash's Teleport with the augment: Teleports to overguarded enemies and finishes them.
• Voruna's Fangs of Raksh: Jumps to overguarded enemies and gives them status effects.
• Garuda's Dread Mirror: Invalid Target.

What does and doesn't affect overguard seems entirely random. Quite the number of CC effects work, other abilities don't for no apparent reason. That's fine and all, we're all infamously beta testers after all, but what isn't fine is to just keep the game bugged for effin ever. DE fix your mess!

Also remember Gas damage? Originally it procced Toxin status, the damage was increased by Toxin mods as is the case with all elemental status effects, and it stacked infinitely - as all damaging status effects did.

Now Gas damage is capped at 10 procs. That's nothing on most weapons. It also no longer scales with either Toxin or Heat mods.

Now after their little "rework" they were immediately told that they messed up and made Gas useless, and they even responded promising to fix gas - but this 100% includes making the procs uncapped and returning scaling from mods, which hasn't happened.

This game suffers from a million of bugs that just don't ever get fixed. Can you just please get started doing something, like fixing these two issues that you created? A journey of a million miles starts with one step after all.

[Schwitzer]

Best way to fix Overguard: delete it. 

[Traumtulpe]

8 minutes ago, Schwitzer said:

Best way to fix Overguard: delete it. 

I disagree. It took a while (and a bunch of tweaks), but the added durability afforded to eximus units by overguard seems like a net positive to the game. It's nice to have mini bosses in the game.

Of course eximus (supposedly) ignoring any and all CC is just stupid, they don't ignore Mesmer Skin after all - why make some warframes useless and others not? Oh right, because DE needed to sell Revenant's Prime Access...

"Special offer: The one and only permanently, perfectly invincible Warframe. Now that we've nerfed all CC in the game, don't you too wish to become completely impervious to damage? You can be for only 72€..."

Edited July 18, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

Hmm, I think it's because of the stagger that dread mirror causes that makes it not work on overguarded enemies. Fatal teleport doesn't really stun it's just a finisher, which you can do on overguarded enemies

I mean I think it should still work but without the stagger, of course.

Edited July 18, 2023 by (XBOX)C11H22O11

[JustinJustinJustinJustin]

I'm gonna be real overguard is very annoying and is an absolute pain when eximus enemies below you resist your damage when you can delete steel path level normal enemies in seconds, but at the same time I think its a necessary evil.
WIthout it we would continue bulldozing every enemy they throw at since our damage is now in the millions per second. The only part I don't like is how it shuts down CC, which effectively ruins half the frames that rely on such things to survive.
Remember how we used to complain about how limbo got shut down by a single yellow boi, yeah well now he gets shutdown even harder because theres even more enemies that just ignore him.


TLDR: Overguard is a necessary evil but they need to make it not completely shut down cc maybe make it only half the effect/duration instead because limbo and alot of cc frames get obliterated by them 
 (Oh yeah the damage sponge enemies also make aoe even better despite the game trying to shift away from the zoom boom meta.)

[Traumtulpe]

5 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Hmm, I think it's because of the stagger that dread mirror causes that makes it not work on overguarded enemies.

I don't get your point? Like, when Ash teleports to an eximus and finishes it, or when he casts Blade Storm on it, the eximus gets held in place until the animation is finished. Also you can cast Dread Mirror on invincible enemies (they obviously just don't get affected in any way).

The issue here is not the presence of a stagger, it is that DE flagged overguarded enemies as invalid targets for the ability.

I mean, Fangs of Raksh can proc Radiation, and overguarded targets are immune to that - Voruna can still cast the ability though.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

Just now, Traumtulpe said:

I don't get your point? Like, when Ash teleports to an eximus and finishes it, or when he casts Blade Storm on it, the eximus gets held in place until the animation in finished. Also you can cast Dread Mirror on invincible enemies (they obviously just don't get affected in any way).

The issue here is not the presence of a stagger, it is that DE flagged overguarded enemies as invalid targets for the ability.

Yeah, I understand you and I agree that dread mirror should work on them I was just trying to say what might be DE's logic for it not working on them.

[Stafelund]

Overguard also broke stealth finishers. I hated that.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 33 minutes, Traumtulpe a dit :

I don't get your point? Like, when Ash teleports to an eximus and finishes it, or when he casts Blade Storm on it, the eximus gets held in place until the animation is finished. Also you can cast Dread Mirror on invincible enemies (they obviously just don't get affected in any way).

The issue here is not the presence of a stagger, it is that DE flagged overguarded enemies as invalid targets for the ability.

I mean, Fangs of Raksh can proc Radiation, and overguarded targets are immune to that - Voruna can still cast the ability though.

I agree with most of what you said.

If I remember correctly, the reason why Dread Mirror does not work while OG is active is because of the life steal : 10% of the enemies max HP is converted into damage points for the Heart. As the OG protects the HP bar from taking damage, Dread Mirror can't absorb the 10% max HP from the Eximus. The knockback, as you said, has nothing to do with this problem, but the way Dread Mirror absorbs HP to turn it into damage stacked in the Heart.

Ash Blade Storm does not absorb any HP and the damage it makes is applied first to the OG and then, when removed, to the enemy HP.

About the Rad procs caused by Fangs of Raksh, it works the same way as any other Rad proc caused by an ability : you can see this work with Oberon (1st, 2nd and 4th abilities) : the Rad Proc is applied but will not produce any effects until the OG is removed. The Eximus will not be confused, but the proc will be there and will cause confusion as soon as the OG is removed.

Edited July 18, 2023 by (NSW)AegisFifi

[Joezone619]

Limbo... nuff said.

[Traumtulpe]

4 minutes ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

If I remember correctly, the reason why Dread Mirror does not work while OG is active is because of the life steal : 10% of the enemies max HP is converted into damage points for the Heart.

Nice theory, but you are completely mistaken. Dread Mirror is not health steal or health loss (like Reave, for example), it simply deals 10% of max health as Slash damage. As such it would (very slightly) damage overguard with no special interaction if it could be cast on them.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[Traumtulpe]

Also thank you @[DE]Saske for censoring the word "effing". Wouldn't want to hurt any (very extraordinarily sensible) sensibilities!

[Nok-Rntha]

No. They'll keep it in the game until you like it. It's been a very divisive things due to how it basically removes CC frames from the game and does practically nothing to challenge players who are on the top end of damage, but apparently those concerns weren't strong enough for DE to look back on the mechanic and do a round 2 on it.

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

[Traumtulpe]

4 minutes ago, Nok-Rntha said:

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Those damn players are gonna like Void Sling one day! Oops, wrong topic.

[Nok-Rntha]

23 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Those damn players are gonna like Void Sling one day! Oops, wrong topic.

Reminder that switching between voidspawn and Frame used to be instant, but due to a 'bug', there's now a delay

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Hmm, I think it's because of the stagger that dread mirror causes that makes it not work on overguarded enemies.

Most abilities with both CC and non-CC components still allow the latter to function through Overguard. 

 

1 hour ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Yeah, I understand you and I agree that dread mirror should work on them I was just trying to say what might be DE's logic for it not working on them.

At this point I don't think it's logic.  It's either an accident that nobody's fixed, or a poor decision that nobody's taken the time to rethink.

What's especially bemusing is that Dread Mirror does (or did) work on some Overguard units in the Circuit, allowing the jump but not staggering.    So it sure seems like it's just a matter of a virtual checkbox for "disallowed target" being unchecked

[Tiltskillet]

RE: gas.  I admit it, I kind of like that the damage stack cap on gas keeps it mostly a burst damage weapon gimmick, and differentiates it from other dots.  It makes my gas Vulkar, Daikyu, and Nataruk feel more special than they would if there were gas Phantasmas,  Burstons, Kompressas, and Knukors running around. 

But I can't say there's a rational excuse for it.  My weapons would still be as good (or whatever they are) as now, there'd just be more options.

Obviously the radius bonus would still be capped though.  Although I wish they'd give us the higher number they originally proposed.

[Stafelund]

1 hour ago, Nok-Rntha said:

No. They'll keep it in the game until you like it. It's been a very divisive things due to how it basically removes CC frames from the game and does practically nothing to challenge players who are on the top end of damage, but apparently those concerns weren't strong enough for DE to look back on the mechanic and do a round 2 on it.

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

That is unless it was reviewbombed upon release with the ammo/wukong changes, they'd probably had tweak it.

[trst]

There's probably a dozen edge cases of things that ought to work but don't. It'd probably be easier to just make them outright ability immune or give them Sentient/boss ability resistance instead of the CC immunity. Or just removing the immunity entirely as with or without it CC is still a dead mechanic as we're long past the years of CC meta being a problem.

 

As for Gas I genuinely suspect DE didn't really know how the damage/status really worked in the first place. Considering all of the unintuitive interactions and effects it had when on the tin it seems it was just meant to be an AOE DOT status, not some weird faction mod damage stacking beast unlike any other status.

But a big problem with it is the status system itself which still needs a genuine overhaul and rebalancing. Every status and damage type really needs a proper rework with all the issues the system as a whole has.

 

2 hours ago, Stafelund said:

Overguard also broke stealth finishers. I hated that.

Not really, what it did was give value to stealth damage multipliers.

Instead of any melee weapon being able to stealth kill any enemy now there is such a thing as a stealth attack build. There is a lack of options for increasing it but things like Fatal Teleport or Savage Silence (subsumable onto anyone) with a good stealth weapon can still kill SP overguarded enemies in one hit.

Stealth is a system that has been barebones for the entire game's life and is probably the only mechanic still in a "1.0" state. But I'd say overguard was an improvement to it overall.

[DroopingPuppy]

Well, speaking of Wukong change at least I am actually quite fond of it since it eliminates most wukong AFKs. Still I could see those sometimes but only with some bad luck, unlike before the change when I cannot avoid those AFKs without leave the public game for at least 2 to 4 times then rejoin. Although it also eliminates my style of wukong that is shoot the bow with his twin, but still it is an acceptable sacrifice for removing the AFKs.

 

Anyway, although I am OK about overguard but it is unreasonable that some abilities are just don't works against the eximus with overguard. It is fine to let them durable. But it is not fine to only accept some types of abilities.

[(XBOX)Rez090]

5 hours ago, Stafelund said:

Overguard also broke stealth finishers. I hated that.

No it didn't 

[Spookmineer]

Gas damage is great but not vs every faction.

With AeO weapons like torid or vermisplicer with chaining beams, or cerata ("glaive"), gas damage vs corpus and infested becomes hilarious, especially in SP where the enemy density makes it so the gas clouds start overlapping.

Lately I've been using torid mainly for those solo SP missions and it's a blast.

[PublikDomain]

5 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Those damn players are gonna like Void Sling one day! Oops, wrong topic.

Off topic but guh. The Ropalolyst showed up as a Nightwave task, a fight I haven't done since Void Dash was removed. The fight was annoying enough when the Ropalolyst's disruption prevented using Void Dash, but with Void Sling it just feels a million times worse. "Oops, guess I'll just fall into the pit again". Just ucky. So glad I don't have to fight that thing often.

7 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Also remember Gas damage? Originally it procced Toxin status, the damage was increased by Toxin mods as is the case with all elemental status effects, and it stacked infinitely - as all damaging status effects did.

Now Gas damage is capped at 10 procs. That's nothing on most weapons. It also no longer scales with either Toxin or Heat mods.

I unironically use Gas on my Khora and I really like it, it's great. That said, Gas (and Blast) would be so much more interesting if they could proc off surfaces. Like you could shoot the ground or a wall and have it spawn a Gas cloud as if you hit an enemy. Shoot the cloud, bigger cloud. Same for Electric now that I think about it, imagine being able to shoot the floor and having an Electric proc arc from the floor to a nearby enemy. 😘👌

Or proc-on-proc interactions. Shooting a Gas bubble with Heat exploding and applying Blast, or shooting a Gas cloud with Electric to stun enemies in the cloud, hitting frozen Cold-procced enemies with Blast causing them to shatter, etc.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

7 hours ago, Schwitzer said:

Best way to fix Overguard: delete it. 

Then you'll have to deal with all of the limbo users....

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

One thing that seriously bugs me about overguard is how it effectively ruined Sevagoth because he can't use his shadow's dash attack against them, which is very bad since he needs it to self revive and prevent the death of the shadow. 

Now the reasoning for this is kinda stupid: the dash isn't a cc ability. It's a damage ability that instantly kills the target when used during the "revive phase." This means that DE specifically nerfed a damage ability because it might be "too powerful against eximus." 

What makes it worse is that Ash and Kullervo can straight up instakill eximus using their respective teleport abilities, meanwhile Sevagoth is left in the dust trying to avoid the eximus shooting him while he tries to revive himself.

Edited July 18, 2023 by (XBOX)Upl0rdYT