I am so disappointed with all the nerfed Helminth abilities.

[ShogunGunshow]

On 2023-08-07 at 12:40 PM, Silligoose said:

DE struggles when it comes to balance.

I also feel the rampant homogenization of frames has been unhealthy for the game and Helminth contributed to that greatly.

It also lets DE get away with fundamentally terrible design because, oh, you can just patch up what the frame is lacking in the meta with Helminth. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by ShogunGunshow

[Silligoose]

On 2023-08-13 at 2:20 PM, SneakyErvin said:

You are again just describing generic power progression, not homogenization unless you imply all games that progress and make you stronger while giving you better management are also all homogenized. More mana, more health, more regen, speccing in skills to reduce their cost or morph how they work etc. are just regular progression steps for most games.

Generic power progression and homogenization are not mutually exclusive. There are certainly other games with power progression have some form of homogenization, but I can't speak to all of them.

On 2023-08-13 at 2:20 PM, SneakyErvin said:

Yes it is just as big as before, since like I said, the defense frames also has the same choice. You could argue that the difference between Octavia and other frames in a defense situation wouldnt be nearly as big. But for every other frame, the different is just the same since they can all pick up that same skill to further improve their already innate defensive kit. So the same applies to the Limbo and Frost, with enemies following that same little ball of aggro. 

Looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree.

On 2023-08-13 at 2:20 PM, SneakyErvin said:

Which is no different than carrying a specific magic item in another game that grants you an ability that is otherwise innate to a specific class. Teleport in D2, a pair of low level gloves in Divinity or something else in another game. 

Indeed some other games with progression mechanics can have homogenizing options.

On 2023-08-13 at 2:20 PM, SneakyErvin said:

But the game isnt about just frames, never has it been either. It is about how the full loadout comes together. Which means more options means more build diversity and not less. As you imply with Citrinie that you already have access to those things, well picking Citrine would allow you to change other things in your loadout, more depth and width to the system, it is not getting more shallow or narrow.

Frames are an extremely impactful choice with regards to one's loadout at lower levels of player power. That impact decreases as one progresses in player power and more options become available. The addition of Citrine didn't add anything meaningful to the gameplay experience as a result. That is my point.

On 2023-08-13 at 2:20 PM, SneakyErvin said:

Again I didnt discuss any different gameplay. I was talking about the strengths compared to other frames for the mode. You added gameplay as some metric to this part of the discussion based on something from another segment where we discussed how gameplay and playstyles can also be altered through frame choices and helminth. Breach Surge adds something that Resonator doesnt, which is improved AoE clearing. And I dont know about you but personally I prefer to spend as little time in missions as possible. Hence why I hate resonator and other skills that slow down the pace with a passion. There is a reason many people drop it on the frame it belongs to even. Not everything is about just keeping the objective unharmed, it is also about increasing the efficiency of the mission. So allowing things to come close while being protected by a barrier is simply faster, since when the enemy gets close enough they get frozen and debuffed for quick killing. And if you play something like Arbi defense where you can pick the spot, the defensive frames along with frames like Protea massively reduce the time you need to spend in the mission.

I'm trying to bring across why I think there is homogenization of frames and discussing the actual gameplay experience and gameplay loops of frames would aid in that.

For what it is worth, no I don't try to spend as little time in a mission as possible. While I have min-maxed, I don't do that often. Sometimes I'll do speedruns, but a lot of the time I don't, because then gameplay becomes very similar. Sometimes I use meme builds for the fun of it. Sometimes I run around in SP with un-potato'd weapons for the fun of it. When I self-nerf and lower my player power, the gameplay differs far greater.

On 2023-08-13 at 2:20 PM, SneakyErvin said:

But why? All of what I said was Kullervo in comparison to Kullervo, where helminth can allow him to play two completely different playstyles. And if you wanna compare it to other frames it was already mentioned in the comparison between Kullervos. His ranged build allows for great use of single target weapons as AoE clear tools thanks to his kit, most notably Curse that makes everything act as an AoE, with the limit of not being able to inflict statuses.

I stated why. I'm familiar with his kit.

On 2023-08-13 at 2:20 PM, SneakyErvin said:

Which is exactly what I said. There is still a huge difference between the two due to how the skills work and impact the flow of the mission. Even with the augmented Terrify it is a detrimental skill to mission flow due to slowing everything down. It is only a somewhat viable choice on frames like Saryn since she doesnt require LoS. But on her it is quite wasted since her damage output is already high and quite easy to maintain. Slowva aswell as frames with Gloom are already disliked in missions due to turning them into a crawl, the same applies to people bringing Terrify.

I look at the differences in gameplay when comparing different frames at lower levels of player power and use that as my baseline. Then I consider the differences in gameplay when comparing different frames at high levels of player power, in which some form of AoE armour strip, such as Terrify, is compared to Avalance and in terms of gameplay, there simply isn't much of a difference - I cast the AoE armour strip and the room is cleared soon after. Given how quickly the enemies are killed, I consider the impact on gameplay and efficiency of enemies running away at 20% speed vs enemies standing still, slight. You appear to see it as more impactful. Therein lies the rub: What I regard as slight differences in comparison to the baselines I'm using, you consider not to be so slight.

These are subjective impressions each of has. We've stated our cases and I don't see either of us changing our minds anytime soon, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

On 2023-08-13 at 2:20 PM, SneakyErvin said:

Not at all. Both have significant impact on performance since it allows him to scale higher aswell as play more safely outside of his bubble.

Again, we will have to agree to disagree. I don't see Frost's Overguard option as impactful at higher level of player power.

On 2023-08-13 at 2:20 PM, SneakyErvin said:

And you claim I'm vague when you yourself hasnt mentioned a single actual example of things you consider the same really. I also wonder how you can see it as nuanced differences when some of the frames mentioned have an extremely lower kill potential than others. Or do you not care at all about efficiency? Do you enjoy spending pointless amounts of extra time on something for the exact same reward.

This spawned from an example I gave regarding Nyx and Mag in which I was very specific.

Sometimes I care about efficiency, sometimes I don't. The main reason I play missions is for the fun of the mission, not the extrinsic reward.

On 2023-08-13 at 2:20 PM, SneakyErvin said:

Protea for instance in Arbitration defense. It takes her around 40 minutes to clear 12+ waves while keeping the operative 100% safe. The majority of other frames would look at something close to an hour for the same amount of waves. For me that is a significant impact from the frame choice. And you can see the same in other missions, by looking at something like KPM in survival between different frames and loadouts. While it doesnt matter much in the end at this point since we likely arent after generic materials, it still shows a significant difference in the choices we make for our loadout. You'd also likely see the same in defense with your resonator example, since without it the enemies comes to die, with it you need to chase down enemies.

With Resonator, enemies run to the ball, so one doesn't have to chase. 

I believe there is homogenization of frames. You don't. Each of us gave it a go in presenting our cases and it seems neither of us are going to be swayed at this point.

[SneakyErvin]

19 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Generic power progression and homogenization are not mutually exclusive. There are certainly other games with power progression have some form of homogenization, but I can't speak to all of them.

That doesnt change what you are talking about, which is simply power progression. I already covered it a while back that the two are not mutually exclusive.

21 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Not sure how you can agree with more options being more. 

22 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Indeed some other games with progression mechanics can have homogenizing options.

Those examples arent that though. Since they dont make the class act like the other even though they can do one single thing similar. It actually opens up build choices, in Divinity it allows you to alter how the whole party plays, giving you a different gameplay experience and approach since you suddenly dont need a trickster or mage with personal or targetted teleports in the group. Meaning you can test more tactics that the game provides you, with new damage synergies and so on making the run different from the one where you used a mage or trickster.

33 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I'm trying to bring across why I think there is homogenization of frames and discussing the actual gameplay experience and gameplay loops of frames would aid in that.

For what it is worth, no I don't try to spend as little time in a mission as possible. While I have min-maxed, I don't do that often. Sometimes I'll do speedruns, but a lot of the time I don't, because then gameplay becomes very similar. Sometimes I use meme builds for the fun of it. Sometimes I run around in SP with un-potato'd weapons for the fun of it. When I self-nerf and lower my player power, the gameplay differs far greater.

Then you likely arent actually pushing the frames and loadouts to see the impact they have on efficiency etc. Which in itself means the choice has an impact.

38 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I stated why. I'm familiar with his kit.

Because you felt a need to change the subject regarding what was said for Kullervo? Or change goal posts or something similar.

39 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I look at the differences in gameplay when comparing different frames at lower levels of player power and use that as my baseline. Then I consider the differences in gameplay when comparing different frames at high levels of player power, in which some form of AoE armour strip, such as Terrify, is compared to Avalance and in terms of gameplay, there simply isn't much of a difference - I cast the AoE armour strip and the room is cleared soon after. Given how quickly the enemies are killed, I consider the impact on gameplay and efficiency of enemies running away at 20% speed vs enemies standing still, slight. You appear to see it as more impactful. Therein lies the rub: What I regard as slight differences in comparison to the baselines I'm using, you consider not to be so slight.

These are subjective impressions each of has. We've stated our cases and I don't see either of us changing our minds anytime soon, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

But clearly more people agree that there is a bigger difference, hence the hate towards slowing abilities in general. All you do by wasting a mod slot on Terrify is shift it from one horrible impact on the mission to another, from full speed running in terror to an 80% slow while running in terror. At the same time Avalanche has no negative impact on the mission. It used to have prior to the status reworks for such abilities, but right now it is just a benefit, completely freezing enemies, removing their armor and increasing crit damage for everyone aswell.

50 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Again, we will have to agree to disagree. I don't see Frost's Overguard option as impactful at higher level of player power.

It's a free invulnerability window that works really well if you play an avalanche focused damage build. Combined with an augur mod avalanche suddenly gives you two seperate invulnerability windows per cast while also keeping you immune to status effects. Resulting in magnetic eximus pools wont do anything to you as you cast etc.

54 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Sometimes I care about efficiency, sometimes I don't. The main reason I play missions is for the fun of the mission, not the extrinsic reward.

Sometimes doesnt alter that there is a significant difference when you actually care about efficiency.

55 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

With Resonator, enemies run to the ball, so one doesn't have to chase. 

You still need to go to where the ball is as opposed to everything coming to you by default.

58 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I believe there is homogenization of frames. You don't. Each of us gave it a go in presenting our cases and it seems neither of us are going to be swayed at this point.

All frames at that point would be similar. While we have some overlapping between certain frames, the roster overall is not homogenized, since we have far more distinct playstyles across the massive roster we now have. Again we arent talking about a class based game with very limited classes and roles. We are talking about 50+ individual frames with a slight role concept.

If the frames were homogenized Banshee, Rhino, Loki and Ash would be able to rely on their skills to the same extent as Styanax, Ember, Xaku or Protea for clearing content efficiently. Eample. Today I did an SP fissure in the Void with Styanax, a survival mission. The few times I used my gun or melee was to take out guardian eximus units, outside of that all killing was done with his #4 while keeping life support at 90%+ constantly Not really something that would be possible with the 4 frames mentioned first, no matter if I shard them or use the same Helminth and operator options on them as on my Styanax.

 

[ShogunGunshow]

That feeling of entering the Ouroboros where every post must spend paragraphs responding to single sentences, which itself must then be clipped into sentences to spend more paragraphs responding to. A runaway self-sustaining reaction of pedantry until someone finally doesn't feel like writing the equivalent of a high school english essay and just gives up.

[Silligoose]

20 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That doesnt change what you are talking about, which is simply power progression. I already covered it a while back that the two are not mutually exclusive.

My focus is the level of homogenization. With that, within the current context of our discussion, comes power progression, but power progression does not mean homogenization isn't a factor. 

20 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Those examples arent that though. Since they dont make the class act like the other even though they can do one single thing similar. It actually opens up build choices, in Divinity it allows you to alter how the whole party plays, giving you a different gameplay experience and approach since you suddenly dont need a trickster or mage with personal or targetted teleports in the group. Meaning you can test more tactics that the game provides you, with new damage synergies and so on making the run different from the one where you used a mage or trickster.

This is where we will continue to disagree: Since the item (an option) allows for one class to do even a single thing similar to another class (in this case it allows them to teleport), it is a homogenizing option, because it makes them similar in some way. Even if there are only a select few homogenizing options and the resultant level of homogenization isn't high, the options still serve to homogenize.

I agree it results in opening up build choices. I believe there comes a point where more build options aren't necessarily a good thing, as they can lead to certain choices having a diminished impact.

20 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Because you felt a need to change the subject regarding what was said for Kullervo? Or change goal posts or something similar.

On 2023-08-12 at 9:36 PM, Silligoose said:

I wanted you to be specific as to Kullervo's ranged gameplay so we can compare it with that of other loadouts in which Kullervo is not the frame choice.

 

20 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But clearly more people agree that there is a bigger difference, hence the hate towards slowing abilities in general. All you do by wasting a mod slot on Terrify is shift it from one horrible impact on the mission to another, from full speed running in terror to an 80% slow while running in terror. At the same time Avalanche has no negative impact on the mission. It used to have prior to the status reworks for such abilities, but right now it is just a benefit, completely freezing enemies, removing their armor and increasing crit damage for everyone aswell.

I'm not sure to what extent players dislike slows, nor am I sure what all the reasons behind potential dislike may be, but many of the reasons I've come across from others and myself overlap with them not liking enemies being 100% slowed stunned fpr prolonged periods of time, which usually boils down to:

1. They are playing a defense mission and it leads to the mission taking far longer than needed, without having a practical benefit as there is little chance of failure (chance of failure is generally so low at higher levels of power, players would be happy to have a Speedva).
2. Due to how potent slows can be, enemies are trivialized.
3. Their build relies on enemy damage output and slows are anti-synergistic to this.

20 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It's a free invulnerability window that works really well if you play an avalanche focused damage build. Combined with an augur mod avalanche suddenly gives you two seperate invulnerability windows per cast while also keeping you immune to status effects. Resulting in magnetic eximus pools wont do anything to you as you cast etc.

If you find these mechanics to generally be impactful to gameplay at higher levels of player power, that's fine. On paper they seem to be, for the reasons you point out. In practice, I find their impact to be nuanced.

20 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You still need to go to where the ball is as opposed to everything coming to you by default.

The ball doesn't generally go so far from the players that they need to go chasing after enemies. Slot Conductor and you get to choose where the ball goes.

21 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

All frames at that point would be similar. While we have some overlapping between certain frames, the roster overall is not homogenized, since we have far more distinct playstyles across the massive roster we now have. Again we arent talking about a class based game with very limited classes and roles. We are talking about 50+ individual frames with a slight role concept.

If the frames were homogenized Banshee, Rhino, Loki and Ash would be able to rely on their skills to the same extent as Styanax, Ember, Xaku or Protea for clearing content efficiently. Eample. Today I did an SP fissure in the Void with Styanax, a survival mission. The few times I used my gun or melee was to take out guardian eximus units, outside of that all killing was done with his #4 while keeping life support at 90%+ constantly Not really something that would be possible with the 4 frames mentioned first, no matter if I shard them or use the same Helminth and operator options on them as on my Styanax.

Homogenization options do not imply full homogenization has occurred. When people speak of cultural homogenization, they aren't saying that cultures have already become fully homogenized but speak of how different cultures are becoming more similar.

We simply aren't going to agree and have reached an impasse.

[SneakyErvin]

43 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

the options still serve to homogenize

Which is factually wrong. They serve to add build diversity in width and depth. Homogenization in gaming = lack of options and depth.

43 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I agree it results in opening up build choices.

Which means it isnt homogenized. Just that we can make a single frame unique to other versions of itself proves it, even it the difference between the two might be minimal. Since the difference between two versions of the same frame increases and alters the playstyle, it doesnt reduce it.

43 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I'm not sure to what extent players dislike slows, nor am I sure what all the reasons behind potential dislike may be,

It is mostly due to point #1, that it slows down things like defense, slows down killing and along with that spawns in Survival, leading to less KPM and less life support and loots etc. It is the number one thing I have seen in party chat when someone bothers to talk pretty much.

43 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

If you find these mechanics to generally be impactful to gameplay at higher levels of player power, that's fine. On paper they seem to be, for the reasons you point out. In practice, I find their impact to be nuanced.

Then the question is. How often do you play Frost?

43 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

The ball doesn't generally go so far from the players that they need to go chasing after enemies. Slot Conductor and you get to choose where the ball goes.

It still goes somewhere and at the point you slot the augment, what is the point of the ball, since you likely wanna place it at a point where you wont have to run off to. So you might aswell just use some other defense at that location because enemies will come running to that point eitherway, ball or no ball. Augment is more in order to help Octavia get use of Mallet together with her resonator, since the enemies will at that point actually get close enough to hit it so Mallet can gain and deal damage. However it is just simpler to remove resonator so enemies also shoot at Mallet.

43 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Homogenization options do not imply full homogenization has occurred. When people speak of cultural homogenization, they aren't saying that cultures have already become fully homogenized but speak of how different cultures are becoming more similar.

We simply aren't going to agree and have reached an impasse.

But we are talking about the term within gaming. Homogenized in games mean reduced options and reduced build/spec diversity. In Warframe we have more options, giving us the chance to make each frame and loadout unique. Us being able to perform the same thing in several different ways does not imply a homogenized system since each approach plays different than another. Like we covered earlier, it can come from weapons, frames, operator, pets etc. meaning we have several options and choices to how we build our loadout. For instance grabbing defense stripping through the operator will make the gameplay far different from getting it through the frame, at which point I might have a focus school I barely ever use actively.

 

[Silligoose]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which is factually wrong. They serve to add build diversity in width and depth. Homogenization in gaming = lack of options and depth.

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I agree it results in opening up build choices.

Which means it isnt homogenized. Just that we can make a single frame unique to other versions of itself proves it, even it the difference between the two might be minimal. Since the difference between two versions of the same frame increases and alters the playstyle, it doesnt reduce it.

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I'm not sure to what extent players dislike slows, nor am I sure what all the reasons behind potential dislike may be,

It is mostly due to point #1, that it slows down things like defense, slows down killing and along with that spawns in Survival, leading to less KPM and less life support and loots etc. It is the number one thing I have seen in party chat when someone bothers to talk pretty much.

I disagree

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Then the question is. How often do you play Frost?

Often enough. I've taken him to lvl cap and I use him from time to time for SP Incursions.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

It still goes somewhere and at the point you slot the augment, what is the point of the ball, since you likely wanna place it at a point where you wont have to run off to. So you might aswell just use some other defense at that location because enemies will come running to that point eitherway, ball or no ball. Augment is more in order to help Octavia get use of Mallet together with her resonator, since the enemies will at that point actually get close enough to hit it so Mallet can gain and deal damage. However it is just simpler to remove resonator so enemies also shoot at Mallet.

AoE cc is the point of the ball. It picks up Mallet automatically without the augment.

I can use another form of AoE cc - it ends up being more or less the same thing.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

But we are talking about the term within gaming. Homogenized in games mean reduced options and reduced build/spec diversity. In Warframe we have more options, giving us the chance to make each frame and loadout unique. Us being able to perform the same thing in several different ways does not imply a homogenized system since each approach plays different than another. Like we covered earlier, it can come from weapons, frames, operator, pets etc. meaning we have several options and choices to how we build our loadout. For instance grabbing defense stripping through the operator will make the gameplay far different from getting it through the frame, at which point I might have a focus school I barely ever use actively.

I'd appreciate citation regarding the definition of homogenization in games.

When comparing armour strip via Operator vs armour strip via something like Tharros Strike, I don't see much of a difference. You do. This is why we won't agree on this.

Forget the citation. We've stated our cases and will leave the discussion unconvinced. Thank you for your time.

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I disagree

That is up to you even though you are wrong.

20 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Often enough. I've taken him to lvl cap and I use him from time to time for SP Incursions.

And do you run an offensive avalanche build with him? How much have you tried it after the shift over to it becoming overguard with .5 sec invulnerability?

20 hours ago, Silligoose said:

AoE cc is the point of the ball. It picks up Mallet automatically without the augment.

I can use another form of AoE cc - it ends up being more or less the same thing.

Clearly you dont understand the Octavia issue with mallet and ball sync, or the lack there of if you think the issue is about the ball picking up the mallet or not. 

Obviously since the purpose of CC is to CC. What else do you expect? Although no other CC is a braindead A.I you need to play around. Heck I stopped using Resonator on Octavia quite early after having experienced the horrible nature of it while leveling things on Hydroid. Where the #*!%ing ball would go chase enemies in one corner of the map while enemies poured in from the other side also, while bringing the mallet with it aswell. Not to mention when running survival and you stealth in order not to get damage, followed by the roller actively trying to troll you by rolling right infront of you as enemies fire at it and the mallet, missing it and killing you. Atleast the subsumed version can only drag enemies around the map for pointless reasons.

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I'd appreciate citation regarding the definition of homogenization in games.

When comparing armour strip via Operator vs armour strip via something like Tharros Strike, I don't see much of a difference. You do. This is why we won't agree on this.

Forget the citation. We've stated our cases and will leave the discussion unconvinced. Thank you for your time.

It's available wherever you wanna look. I'm not the one trying to use it to mean something it doesnt. You seem quite into doing that though with alot of defenitions.

So you're telling me you think there isnt "much of a difference" between actively using the operator and nearly not using it at all? Effectively it is a different gameplay approach/playstyle since you suddenly engage with an additional system of the game. Or are you also going to claim melee is the same as playing ranged? Since your reasosing is on that level right now.

 

[Silligoose]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And do you run an offensive avalanche build with him? How much have you tried it after the shift over to it becoming overguard with .5 sec invulnerability?

You are welcome to expand and compare to your normal Shield Gating builds and explain how it is vastly different as a result.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Clearly you dont understand the Octavia issue with mallet and ball sync, or the lack there of if you think the issue is about the ball picking up the mallet or not. 

Obviously since the purpose of CC is to CC. What else do you expect? Although no other CC is a braindead A.I you need to play around. Heck I stopped using Resonator on Octavia quite early after having experienced the horrible nature of it while leveling things on Hydroid. Where the #*!%ing ball would go chase enemies in one corner of the map while enemies poured in from the other side also, while bringing the mallet with it aswell. Not to mention when running survival and you stealth in order not to get damage, followed by the roller actively trying to troll you by rolling right infront of you as enemies fire at it and the mallet, missing it and killing you. Atleast the subsumed version can only drag enemies around the map for pointless reasons.

On 2023-08-15 at 3:11 PM, SneakyErvin said:

It still goes somewhere and at the point you slot the augment, what is the point of the ball, since you likely wanna place it at a point where you wont have to run off to. So you might aswell just use some other defense at that location because enemies will come running to that point eitherway, ball or no ball.

You were the one that brought up the whole mallet things and asked what the point of the ball is if one can tell it where to go. You also stated: "So you might aswell just use some other defense...", which is the crux of this whole matter.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It's available wherever you wanna look. I'm not the one trying to use it to mean something it doesnt. You seem quite into doing that though with alot of defenitions.

So you're telling me you think there isnt "much of a difference" between actively using the operator and nearly not using it at all? Effectively it is a different gameplay approach/playstyle since you suddenly engage with an additional system of the game. Or are you also going to claim melee is the same as playing ranged? Since your reasosing is on that level right now.

I looked in Oxford-, Oxford Languages- and Cambridge dictionaries and didn't see the added stipulations that narrows the meaning when it pertains to games along the lines of: "...mean reduced options and reduced build/spec diversity."

I take definitions for what they are and what they mean, and I try not to add my own stipulations. I do not approve of your tendency to add stipulations, especially when it leads to you not wanting to accept any other definitions. 

Gameplay loop using Caustic strike as armour strip on any frame: Ensnare for grouping, Operator button, aim at grouped enemies, Caustic Strike, Operator button, kill enemies.
Gameplay loop using Tharros Strike as armour strip on Styanax: Axios Javelin for grouping, aim at grouped enemies, Tharros Strike, kill enemies with x.

Here's my ultra spicy take for the day: I think the difference in gameplay when comparing ranged vs melee is far more pronounced than difference in the two gameplay loops above and that pressing the Operator button twice doesn't actually make the two loops much different.

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Silligoose said:

You are welcome to expand and compare to your normal Shield Gating builds and explain how it is vastly different as a result.

When did it become about vastly different? That wasnt the subject. Just how much impact overguard has for Frost compared to not. It effectively doubles immunity uptime, giving you tice the time to react in most cases. Which is a significant improvement. Same reason why people love the prolonged 3 second shield gate on Protea and Hildryn. It also keeps you immune to statuses, including eximus auras, something shields wont do, meaning you can get hit by magnetic (crippling your shields), slowed and all other effects while relying only on shield gate.

16 hours ago, Silligoose said:

You were the one that brought up the whole mallet things and asked what the point of the ball is if one can tell it where to go. You also stated: "So you might aswell just use some other defense...", which is the crux of this whole matter.

And there is no point to the ball. For Octavia it adds nothing, since mallet is already stationary. For others it also adds nothing, because any other CC will also be stationary at that point and bring enemies to the same location. Meaning there are better options to pick from. Also not sure which crux you refer to? You try to imply that by being able to replace the ball for something better it is homogenized? No that would be the opposite since there is a better option.

16 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I looked in Oxford-, Oxford Languages- and Cambridge dictionaries and didn't see the added stipulations that narrows the meaning when it pertains to games along the lines of: "...mean reduced options and reduced build/spec diversity."

I take definitions for what they are and what they mean, and I try not to add my own stipulations. I do not approve of your tendency to add stipulations, especially when it leads to you not wanting to accept any other definitions. 

Gameplay loop using Caustic strike as armour strip on any frame: Ensnare for grouping, Operator button, aim at grouped enemies, Caustic Strike, Operator button, kill enemies.
Gameplay loop using Tharros Strike as armour strip on Styanax: Axios Javelin for grouping, aim at grouped enemies, Tharros Strike, kill enemies with x.

Here's my ultra spicy take for the day: I think the difference in gameplay when comparing ranged vs melee is far more pronounced than difference in the two gameplay loops above and that pressing the Operator button twice doesn't actually make the two loops much different.

Those have few things tied to gaming, so I'm not sure why you use those. Gaming lingo tends to be its own thing. And if you take the definitions as they are, your way of seeing the game as homogenized doesnt add up.  

"the process of changing something so that all its parts or features become the same or very similar:"

That is clearly not the case for loadouts nor frames even if we use helminth and shards to alter them. Changing 1 skill will not alter a frame to become the same or very similar. And according to the same definition, the act of using the operator instead of a skill clearly results in a different approach, since other inputs are needed, meaning it is neither the same or very similar. It is also still just 1 ouf several parts in a loadout that results in the same outcome i.e the enemy is stripped. Now if you face enemies with both layers of defense, then suddenly further input is needed when the operator is used, or in the case of shields being the only defense. At which point the operator allows you passive removal of those shields if you stay in an area to fight, while the skill requires constant use if you want to remove shields regularly.

Not only that, Axios vs Ensnare also rely on different methods to work well. Ensnare is a simple fire and forget that just needs a target. Axios will either require different methods depending on the tile layout, to the point where you might be required to jump before using it in order to pin the enemy in the floor to trigger the pull.

And of course guns vs melee is more pronounced, that doesnt mean the examples above are the same, or that a few cases of similar techniques cannot exsist within a diverse game system. Again, we have over 50 different frames and hundreds of weapons. And with Helminth each frame has over 60 different skill combinations at their disposal to further seperate them from the rest and make the whole loadout unique.

[Silligoose]

11 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

When did it become about vastly different? That wasnt the subject. Just how much impact overguard has for Frost compared to not. It effectively doubles immunity uptime, giving you tice the time to react in most cases. Which is a significant improvement. Same reason why people love the prolonged 3 second shield gate on Protea and Hildryn. It also keeps you immune to statuses, including eximus auras, something shields wont do, meaning you can get hit by magnetic (crippling your shields), slowed and all other effects while relying only on shield gate.

If not vastly different, then how different is it? How different is play as a result? What is the level of impact to you? Which levels of play do these mechanics impact? I know we are getting off track, but maybe I'll be treated to some actual comparative gameplay analysis from you.

Like Biting Frost, many of the attributes look good on paper, but in actual practice, it just isn't that impactful, especially not at high level player power within encouraged content in my experience.

11 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And there is no point to the ball. For Octavia it adds nothing, since mallet is already stationary. For others it also adds nothing, because any other CC will also be stationary at that point and bring enemies to the same location. Meaning there are better options to pick from. Also not sure which crux you refer to? You try to imply that by being able to replace the ball for something better it is homogenized? No that would be the opposite since there is a better option.

The point to the ball is cc. It seems you do not see value in the vast majority of enemies with a fairly large area not shooting. I do. Just another thing we disagree and that's fine.

I'm stating having various options that do more or less the same leads to more superficial variety and having various frame archetypes being able to add various forms of effective AoE cc is a form of homogenization.

11 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Those have few things tied to gaming, so I'm not sure why you use those. Gaming lingo tends to be its own thing. And if you take the definitions as they are, your way of seeing the game as homogenized doesnt add up.  

"the process of changing something so that all its parts or features become the same or very similar:"

That is clearly not the case for loadouts nor frames even if we use helminth and shards to alter them. Changing 1 skill will not alter a frame to become the same or very similar. And according to the same definition, the act of using the operator instead of a skill clearly results in a different approach, since other inputs are needed, meaning it is neither the same or very similar. It is also still just 1 ouf several parts in a loadout that results in the same outcome i.e the enemy is stripped. Now if you face enemies with both layers of defense, then suddenly further input is needed when the operator is used, or in the case of shields being the only defense. At which point the operator allows you passive removal of those shields if you stay in an area to fight, while the skill requires constant use if you want to remove shields regularly.

Not only that, Axios vs Ensnare also rely on different methods to work well. Ensnare is a simple fire and forget that just needs a target. Axios will either require different methods depending on the tile layout, to the point where you might be required to jump before using it in order to pin the enemy in the floor to trigger the pull.

And of course guns vs melee is more pronounced, that doesnt mean the examples above are the same, or that a few cases of similar techniques cannot exsist within a diverse game system. Again, we have over 50 different frames and hundreds of weapons. And with Helminth each frame has over 60 different skill combinations at their disposal to further seperate them from the rest and make the whole loadout unique.

the process of changing something so that all its parts or features become the same or very similar:

• They lamented the company's role in the homogenization of world culture.
• We're seeing the homogenization of fauna the world over.

Source: HOMOGENIZATION | English meaning - Cambridge Dictionary

 

The very source you use gives you examples of how the word is used in which it demonstrates the emphasis is on the process of changing something to becoming similar, or homogenous, as opposed to the result being the same, or very similar, or homogenous. The implication of the example: "We're seeing the homogenization of fauna the world over" isn't that fauna all over the world is already the same or very similar (ie homogenous), but that is heading to that state, or becoming it. It is similar to how the process of warming water doesn't entail the water being warm, only it getting closer to the state of being warm, or becoming warm, by way of certain mechanisms.  This becomes more evident when you view more than one source.

 

Sure, gaming lingo has words and phrases that do not have an official meaning, but has an accepted meaning within a game, or a genre. In those cases, especially in cases where there are no official meanings, one has to take a look at various sources, assimilate the information available and use it accordingly. Your tendency to focus in on one definition, from one source, that then adding your own stipulations to this definition, doesn't suddenly make your new definition valid.

 

You need to learn to assimilate the information from sources and apply it, lest you limit your understanding and waste time. We are going back and forth on a concept we agree on: Frames become more similar at higher levels of player power and there are various options that result in that. The sticking point is you not liking the term "homogenization" applied to this scenario, despite it describing the scenario.

 

If you want to disagree that the homogenization of frames (frames becoming more similar) is a bad thing, or that the level of homogenization (how similar they become) isn't that high, or the impact on frame choice in overall gameplay at higher levels of power isn't as low as I think it is, that's fine. That's also something we've been discussing and disagree on it seems, which is also fine.

 

I believe the homogenization of frames has, at higher levels of player power, decreased the value of co-op play too greatly, decreased the value of frame choices too greatly, decreased the value if what was once more unique characteristics within their kits and as such decreased the allure of said frame choice too greatly, has led to gameplay at higher levels of player progression becoming too similar, along with other negative impacts other pointed out by other players.

 

Clearly you disagree. Given that you think pressing the Operator button twice is: "Effectively it is a different gameplay approach/playstyle since you suddenly engage with an additional system of the game." and I don't, it is no surprise that we do not agree. That's fine.

[SneakyErvin]

10 hours ago, Silligoose said:

If not vastly different, then how different is it? How different is play as a result? What is the level of impact to you? Which levels of play do these mechanics impact? I know we are getting off track, but maybe I'll be treated to some actual comparative gameplay analysis from you.

Like Biting Frost, many of the attributes look good on paper, but in actual practice, it just isn't that impactful, especially not at high level player power within encouraged content in my experience.

I already mentioned that in the part you quote. It gives you far more time to react, which makes it far more useful in higher content where damage output of the enemy is higher. And since it is two different types of gates the first one also gives your shields more chance to start regging if both are lost.

Biting Frost gives a massive chunk of extra damage to better scale at high levels, since it brings stats that practically have zero diminishing return. Crit chance helps reach the next crit damage stage and crit damage increases that damage while also being a stat we have few options to obtain. And when you combine it in higher content with certain skills you have millions upon millions of damage spreading across the map. Plus what is "encouraged" content to you? Frost can do everything really well depending on how you build him. And for what I assume you mean "encouraged" content, Biting Frost helps to bring the killing power to get those modes over with as fast as possible, more so if you also bring the right skills to sync with it. Also you say high level player power, but you dont mention the level of the content. Obviously if "encouraged" content to you in uhm entry level SP defense or excav and you sit at maximum power potential, then yeah you might not see much of a different in what you bring whatsoever. But you havent really gone into what you refer to.

10 hours ago, Silligoose said:

The point to the ball is cc. It seems you do not see value in the vast majority of enemies with a fairly large area not shooting. I do. Just another thing we disagree and that's fine.

I'm stating having various options that do more or less the same leads to more superficial variety and having various frame archetypes being able to add various forms of effective AoE cc is a form of homogenization.

Not really a large area unless you build for range. Plus the aggro originates from wherever the ball is, so if enemies come from all around, which they tend to do in SP for instance, it can only cover so much at a time. Silence, Breach Surge, Lull, Sentient Wrath, Spectrorage or even Radial Blind would likely solve more at that point if you wanna keep an objective safe on a frame not really intended for that work.

How are any of the skills mentioned more or less the same for you? And what "archetypes" are you refering to that suddenly gets access to AoE CC that they dont already have?

Silence = innate to a dps debuffer.

Breach Surge = innate to a support buffer/dps frame.

Lull = innane to a all out dps frame.

Sentient Wrath = innate to a I dont really know what their plan was for him. I'd say DPS since that is what he has mostly.

Spectrorage = innate to a defense and AoE dps frame.

Radial Blind = as with Lull innate to an all out dps frame.

Resonator = innate to a buffer AoE dps frame.

None of those frames, aside from Baruuk and Excal play anywhere close to the other. WF isnt a game of clean archetypes and classes, since it isnt a role based game. It is also a game with heavy weight put on solo play, where you can bring what is enough for you to suit your prefered playstyle. It is also odd you say things like "that do more or less the same" followed by "various forms of".

11 hours ago, Silligoose said:

The very source you use gives you examples of how the word is used in which it demonstrates the emphasis is on the process of changing something to becoming similar, or homogenous, as opposed to the result being the same, or very similar, or homogenous. The implication of the example: "We're seeing the homogenization of fauna the world over" isn't that fauna all over the world is already the same or very similar (ie homogenous), but that is heading to that state,

And in WF it turns to the opposite. While a skill from helminth might allow a frame to perform a single action of another frame, bringing the two to a more similar state, it also at the same time adds diversity to the frame in question. It can also further strengthen the identity of a frame by further building on the strengths it is intended for.

For instance. Adding Radial Blind or Breach Surge on Frost doesnt remove any identity from him, nor does it bring him any closer to Wisp since he already has AoE CC and debuffs innate to his kit or "archetype" if you prefer. It does however improve what Frost is designed for, defense, control and debuffing, strengthening his kit, "archetype" or identity.

Just as adding Silence to Ash doesnt alter his identity nor bring him closer to Banshee. There it strengthens his identity aswell while also improving what his kit is ment to do since the skill has synergy with gameplay focused on finishers. It doesnt suddenly allow you to play Ash like you would Banshee.

11 hours ago, Silligoose said:

believe the homogenization of frames has, at higher levels of player power, decreased the value of co-op play too greatly, decreased the value of frame choices too greatly, decreased the value if what was once more unique characteristics within their kits and as such decreased the allure of said frame choice too greatly, has led to gameplay at higher levels of player progression becoming too similar, along with other negative impacts other pointed out by other players.

Yet you do not actually provide any concrete examples of frames that have lost their unique characteristics. You are also still talking about power, which we've already covered is not what results in homogenized systems. However, I've clearly given examples a few times over of the opposite in WF, when more options have further added to the unique characteristics of frames. I'm also not sure why you are so hung up on 1 out of 6 parts in a complete loadout. You reason as if this is a class based game, which others have also pointed out to you.

[Silligoose]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I already mentioned that in the part you quote. It gives you far more time to react, which makes it far more useful in higher content where damage output of the enemy is higher. And since it is two different types of gates the first one also gives your shields more chance to start regging if both are lost.

1.3 seconds gate is a generous window within which to react. The additional 0.5 seconds beyond that simply allows for sloppier play. I'm asking how it actually affects your play, your performance and at which levels. Not once have you actually given an assessment of how mechanics in actual gameplay and gameplay loops are affected with practical examples, whilst I did twice, only to hear you think 2 button presses is "vastly different gameplay".

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Biting Frost gives a massive chunk of extra damage to better scale at high levels, since it brings stats that practically have zero diminishing return. Crit chance helps reach the next crit damage stage and crit damage increases that damage while also being a stat we have few options to obtain. And when you combine it in higher content with certain skills you have millions upon millions of damage spreading across the map. Plus what is "encouraged" content to you? Frost can do everything really well depending on how you build him. And for what I assume you mean "encouraged" content, Biting Frost helps to bring the killing power to get those modes over with as fast as possible, more so if you also bring the right skills to sync with it. Also you say high level player power, but you dont mention the level of the content. Obviously if "encouraged" content to you in uhm entry level SP defense or excav and you sit at maximum power potential, then yeah you might not see much of a different in what you bring whatsoever. But you havent really gone into what you refer to.

On 2023-08-10 at 10:54 PM, Silligoose said:

encouraged content (SP up to rotation C)

Every frame can do everything easily if built right. Hardest is probably Inaros, since one has to spam Protective Sling, or use one of the universal stealth techniques.

Biting Frost is a noob trap and meme mod - it simply leads to more overkill, or TTK decreases by 0.2 - 0.3ish seconds... against fodder within encouraged content, if that... The enemies and health bars that actually matter, against whom the extra damage could actually serve a practical purpose above and beyond bigger overkill number, are immune to being frozen due to Overguard or because they were given immunity, rendering the augment rather useless, especially when considering Avalanche can strip armour anyway.

Lvl cap enemies against whom Biting Frost works are pretty flimsy without armour, with upper limits of around 2.5 million HP, shield and HP combined may get up to around 4 mil, if memory serves and nubers as low as those are obliterated incredibly fast by high level player power anyway.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not really a large area unless you build for range. Plus the aggro originates from wherever the ball is, so if enemies come from all around, which they tend to do in SP for instance, it can only cover so much at a time. Silence, Breach Surge, Lull, Sentient Wrath, Spectrorage or even Radial Blind would likely solve more at that point if you wanna keep an objective safe on a frame not really intended for that work.

How are any of the skills mentioned more or less the same for you? And what "archetypes" are you refering to that suddenly gets access to AoE CC that they dont already have?

Silence = innate to a dps debuffer.

Breach Surge = innate to a support buffer/dps frame.

Lull = innane to a all out dps frame.

Sentient Wrath = innate to a I dont really know what their plan was for him. I'd say DPS since that is what he has mostly.

Spectrorage = innate to a defense and AoE dps frame.

Radial Blind = as with Lull innate to an all out dps frame.

Resonator = innate to a buffer AoE dps frame.

None of those frames, aside from Baruuk and Excal play anywhere close to the other. WF isnt a game of clean archetypes and classes, since it isnt a role based game. It is also a game with heavy weight put on solo play, where you can bring what is enough for you to suit your prefered playstyle. It is also odd you say things like "that do more or less the same" followed by "various forms of".

Examples like Ash and Mirage are more DPS focussed archetype frames that lack any type of decent cc to help defend and area or target. Examples like Saryn and Mesa are DPS-focussed archetypes with some cc, but can benefit from stronger cc options available via Helminth.

No, something like Silence would not solve more than Resonator.

The conversation is about how little impact frame choice has on gameplay loop and the homogenization of frames as a result of various homogenization options.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And in WF it turns to the opposite. While a skill from helminth might allow a frame to perform a single action of another frame, bringing the two to a more similar state, it also at the same time adds diversity to the frame in question. It can also further strengthen the identity of a frame by further building on the strengths it is intended for.

For instance. Adding Radial Blind or Breach Surge on Frost doesnt remove any identity from him, nor does it bring him any closer to Wisp since he already has AoE CC and debuffs innate to his kit or "archetype" if you prefer. It does however improve what Frost is designed for, defense, control and debuffing, strengthening his kit, "archetype" or identity.

Just as adding Silence to Ash doesnt alter his identity nor bring him closer to Banshee. There it strengthens his identity aswell while also improving what his kit is ment to do since the skill has synergy with gameplay focused on finishers. It doesnt suddenly allow you to play Ash like you would Banshee.

You saying a frame getting Breach Surge not bringing them closer to Wisp, or a frame getting Silence not bringing them closer to Banshee is ridiculous. You are literally enabling a frame to do what another frame can do, but it doesn't bring them closer to said frames? No wonder you don't see the homogenization of frames.

You still don't understand what homogenization is and how it is not mutually exclusive to other things.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yet you do not actually provide any concrete examples of frames that have lost their unique characteristics. You are also still talking about power, which we've already covered is not what results in homogenized systems. However, I've clearly given examples a few times over of the opposite in WF, when more options have further added to the unique characteristics of frames. I'm also not sure why you are so hung up on 1 out of 6 parts in a complete loadout. You reason as if this is a class based game, which others have also pointed out to you.

When a unique characteristic, such as being able to have an AoE perimeter silence that also stuns for a short duration, is made available to any other frame, that characteristic is not longer unique. The uniqueness is lost. This is so obvious it shouldn't even need mentioning to players who know what Helminth does.

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

1.3 seconds gate is a generous window within which to react. The additional 0.5 seconds beyond that simply allows for sloppier play. I'm asking how it actually affects your play, your performance and at which levels. Not once have you actually given an assessment of how mechanics in actual gameplay and gameplay loops are affected with practical examples, whilst I did twice, only to hear you think 2 button presses is "vastly different gameplay".

But this part of the discussion is and have never been about "different gamplay". Just how much the changes did to Frost and how much the addition of overguard does to make a skill better, more appealing and a choice that matters. It is also not as simple as saying "an additional 0.5 seconds", since it is a constantly added 0.5 seconds which combined with the right modding nearly tripples the partial shield gate by giving you a window of .83 seconds instead of .33 seconds per cast.

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Every frame can do everything easily if built right. Hardest is probably Inaros, since one has to spam Protective Sling, or use one of the universal stealth techniques.

Biting Frost is a noob trap and meme mod - it simply leads to more overkill, or TTK decreases by 0.2 - 0.3ish seconds... against fodder within encouraged content, if that... The enemies and health bars that actually matter, against whom the extra damage could actually serve a practical purpose above and beyond bigger overkill number, are immune to being frozen due to Overguard or because they were given immunity, rendering the augment rather useless, especially when considering Avalanche can strip armour anyway.

Lvl cap enemies against whom Biting Frost works are pretty flimsy without armour, with upper limits of around 2.5 million HP, shield and HP combined may get up to around 4 mil, if memory serves and nubers as low as those are obliterated incredibly fast by high level player power anyway.

Protective Sling isnt the frame though. So now we are back to fully diverse loadouts and again moving away from the things you claim the game is.

Again with the vauge "encouraged content". And no lol it isnt a "noob trap", it is practically equal to a universal very high dispo riven mod that has a trigger condition instead of being slotted onto the weapon. It also combines very well with certain skill choices which leads to far quicker passive eximus killing as you slaughter trash at higher levels. And in SP every piece of time shaved off killing also means more regular spawns, leading to higher KPM which also narrows the window for how often acolytes spawn, key carriers show up etc. Plus it also shortens defense waves. Need to kill 100 enemies in a wave, well shaving of 0.2 seconds per kill suddenly saved you 20 seconds per wave.

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Examples like Ash and Mirage are more DPS focussed archetype frames that lack any type of decent cc to help defend and area or target. Examples like Saryn and Mesa are DPS-focussed archetypes with some cc, but can benefit from stronger cc options available via Helminth.

No, something like Silence would not solve more than Resonator.

The conversation is about how little impact frame choice has on gameplay loop and the homogenization of frames as a result of various homogenization options.

Which still wouldnt make Ash or Mirage similar in choice to a defense frame, becase they wouldnt really have beneficial stats to make those defense skills useful. You would suddenly have to build for those skills to be really worth it compared to picking a defense frame instead. At which point you'd also gimp their clearing potential for the mission, which is intact on the already defensive frame while also allowing it to build further to defend better.

So then you agree there is an impact of choice. Even if we dont agree on which skill is most useful.

Clearly there is impact considering what was said above. Even in somehting little such as an individual skill you manage to see the impact of choice yet claim there is little impact in the choice between frames, which is 4 (or more) skills in combination.

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

You saying a frame getting Breach Surge not bringing them closer to Wisp, or a frame getting Silence not bringing them closer to Banshee is ridiculous. You are literally enabling a frame to do what another frame can do, but it doesn't bring them closer to said frames? No wonder you don't see the homogenization of frames.

You still don't understand what homogenization is and how it is not mutually exclusive to other things.

It doesnt, as you see in the examples mentioned, Frost already has AoE CC, it doesnt give him something he cannot already do, it only adds to that which he can already do. And with Ash, no he isnt suddenly able to do what Banshee can, since it is only a single skill and not used for the same effect either. On Ash it is used in order to simply increase finisher damage on his Fatal Teleport through the savage silence augment. Which also doesnt require any specific setup for Ash, you dont need to worry about min-maxing range to be able to utilize it etc. Since all that is needed for him is for the ability to be active since his Fatal Teleport sets up enemies to finishers.

Homogenization in games is when all classes have the same types of skills. Like all melee classes in a game, tank or not having a gap closer, all ranged classes having a disengage, all tanks having a cleave, a single target and an AoE taunt, all tanks rely on blocking. And there is no choice involved in it. Here we can pick up what we want through options and personal choice. Which is the complete opposite since it isnt intended to have the effect of homogenizing the system, it has the opposite intent to allow more build variety. You wont find build variety in a homogenous game.

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

When a unique characteristic, such as being able to have an AoE perimeter silence that also stuns for a short duration, is made available to any other frame, that characteristic is not longer unique. The uniqueness is lost. This is so obvious it shouldn't even need mentioning to players who know what Helminth does.

That isnt true, since how it interacts with the game is different between the frames that use it and no other frame will get the uniqueness of Banshee's kit by using a helminthed Silence. Excal, Ash and Inaros for instance gets a completely different use out of silence than Banshee. It also depends how you use it in a Banshee build, do you use it for savage silence or do you use it simply for negating enemy skills? Again, the whole loadout and build is the class in WF, not the frame, not the weapons, not the pet, not the mech, not the archwing, not the archgun, not the operator, no it is all the things together that defines what you do when you enter a mission solo or in a group.

Edited August 19, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[Silligoose]

15 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But this part of the discussion is and have never been about "different gamplay". Just how much the changes did to Frost and how much the addition of overguard does to make a skill better, more appealing and a choice that matters. It is also not as simple as saying "an additional 0.5 seconds", since it is a constantly added 0.5 seconds which combined with the right modding nearly tripples the partial shield gate by giving you a window of .83 seconds instead of .33 seconds per cast.

Seems you like making up stuff and like tohideit behind "some builds" without going into those builds.

17 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Again with the vauge "encouraged content". And no lol it isnt a "noob trap", it is practically equal to a universal very high dispo riven mod that has a trigger condition instead of being slotted onto the weapon. It also combines very well with certain skill choices which leads to far quicker passive eximus killing as you slaughter trash at higher levels. And in SP every piece of time shaved off killing also means more regular spawns, leading to higher KPM which also narrows the window for how often acolytes spawn, key carriers show up etc. Plus it also shortens defense waves. Need to kill 100 enemies in a wave, well shaving of 0.2 seconds per kill suddenly saved you 20 seconds per wave.

I've stated more than once what I refer to when talking about encouraged content and now I will quote it again below.

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

encouraged content (SP up to rotation C)

 

29 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which still wouldnt make Ash or Mirage similar in choice to a defense frame, becase they wouldnt really have beneficial stats to make those defense skills useful. You would suddenly have to build for those skills to be really worth it compared to picking a defense frame instead. At which point you'd also gimp their clearing potential for the mission, which is intact on the already defensive frame while also allowing it to build further to defend better.

So then you agree there is an impact of choice. Even if we dont agree on which skill is most useful.

Clearly there is impact considering what was said above. Even in somehting little such as an individual skill you manage to see the impact of choice yet claim there is little impact in the choice between frames, which is 4 (or more) skills in combination.

I gave examples to demonstrate the query. The options make them more similar, ie it is a form of homogenization.

30 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It doesnt, as you see in the examples mentioned, Frost already has AoE CC, it doesnt give him something he cannot already do, it only adds to that which he can already do. And with Ash, no he isnt suddenly able to do what Banshee can, since it is only a single skill and not used for the same effect either. On Ash it is used in order to simply increase finisher damage on his Fatal Teleport through the savage silence augment. Which also doesnt require any specific setup for Ash, you dont need to worry about min-maxing range to be able to utilize it etc. Since all that is needed for him is for the ability to be active since his Fatal Teleport sets up enemies to finishers.

Homogenization in games is when all classes have the same types of skills. Like all melee classes in a game, tank or not having a gap closer, all ranged classes having a disengage, all tanks having a cleave, a single target and an AoE taunt, all tanks rely on blocking. And there is no choice involved in it. Here we can pick up what we want through options and personal choice. Which is the complete opposite since it isnt intended to have the effect of homogenizing the system, it has the opposite intent to allow more build variety. You wont find build variety in a homogenous game.

I'm not interested in your made up definitions and stipulations for homogenization.

Giving a frame Silence enables them to do something Banshee can do: Cast Silence. That makes them more similar.

33 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That isnt true, since how it interacts with the game is different between the frames that use it and no other frame will get the uniqueness of Banshee's kit by using a helminthed Silence. Excal, Ash and Inaros for instance gets a completely different use out of silence than Banshee. It also depends how you use it in a Banshee build, do you use it for savage silence or do you use it simply for negating enemy skills? Again, the whole loadout and build is the class in WF, not the frame, not the weapons, not the pet, not the mech, not the archwing, not the archgun, not the operator, no it is all the things together that defines what you do when you enter a mission solo or in a group.

There was no claim that another frame will get the uniqueness of Banshee's overall kit, only that her uniqueness is decreased when something that is unique to her becomes available to other frames.

This is what happens when you can't use definitions as they are and decide to make up your own.

[SneakyErvin]

31 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Seems you like making up stuff and like tohideit behind "some builds" without going into those builds.

Not much to go into. You either skip mods that replenish shields and end up at 0.5 sec through OG so the difference is 0.5 on a regular basis instead of 0.33 or you mod for shield replenish aswell and end up at 0.83 instead of 0.33 on a regular basies. Which results in nearly a three times longer window to react in.

34 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I've stated more than once what I refer to when talking about encouraged content and now I will quote it again below.

So in short rather low content where you likely wont notice a bigger difference in your choices since our power is too high. Which also explains how you dont really see how Garuda for instance is a far better choice for Disruption compared to most other frames as mentioned earlier.

40 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I gave examples to demonstrate the query. The options make them more similar, ie it is a form of homogenization.

While at the same time also diversifying the frame to itself, which results in the system not being homogenous, since it further increases the uniqueness of the choice within your loadout.

43 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I'm not interested in your made up definitions and stipulations for homogenization.

Giving a frame Silence enables them to do something Banshee can do: Cast Silence. That makes them more similar.

Which isnt enough to classify it as homegenization, since like mentioned uptop it also further diversifies the frame to itself. Homogenization really only goes one way.

45 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

There was no claim that another frame will get the uniqueness of Banshee's overall kit, only that her uniqueness is decreased when something that is unique to her becomes available to other frames.

This is what happens when you can't use definitions as they are and decide to make up your own.

While at the same time using another skill on her instead of one of her own makes her unqiue to herself (and your whole loadout), while also likely being able to do something that some other frame wont be able to do by slotting that same skill, since they dont have access to the rest of her kit. You should also remember that only two frames out of all 50+ we have can pull of the same skill combo when it is desirable, like Gloom+Silence, Silence+Radial Blind, Roar+Nourish (at reduced effects), Breach Surge+Nourish and so on. Which takes us quite far from what would be considered homogenous since we add alot of depth or if you prefer diversity to the system at that point. That however does mean I imply Warframe is a deep game, we could imo use alot more depth. Helminth, Shards, focus reworks and the addition of incarnons were welcomed additions though.

[Silligoose]

46 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not much to go into. You either skip mods that replenish shields and end up at 0.5 sec through OG so the difference is 0.5 on a regular basis instead of 0.33 or you mod for shield replenish aswell and end up at 0.83 instead of 0.33 on a regular basies. Which results in nearly a three times longer window to react in.

🤣

47 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

So in short rather low content where you likely wont notice a bigger difference in your choices since our power is too high. Which also explains how you dont really see how Garuda for instance is a far better choice for Disruption compared to most other frames as mentioned earlier.

Encouraged content is content we are encouraged to play.

Funny you going back to Garuda in Disruption, seeing as you never backed your claim with specifics.

49 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

While at the same time also diversifying the frame to itself, which results in the system not being homogenous, since it further increases the uniqueness of the choice within your loadout.

Your personal stipulations and definitions for homogenization aren't valid. Next.

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which isnt enough to classify it as homegenization, since like mentioned uptop it also further diversifies the frame to itself. Homogenization really only goes one way.

Your personal stipulations and definitions for homogenization aren't valid. Next.

50 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

While at the same time using another skill on her instead of one of her own makes her unqiue to herself (and your whole loadout), while also likely being able to do something that some other frame wont be able to do by slotting that same skill, since they dont have access to the rest of her kit. You should also remember that only two frames out of all 50+ we have can pull of the same skill combo when it is desirable, like Gloom+Silence, Silence+Radial Blind, Roar+Nourish (at reduced effects), Breach Surge+Nourish and so on. Which takes us quite far from what would be considered homogenous since we add alot of depth or if you prefer diversity to the system at that point. That however does mean I imply Warframe is a deep game, we could imo use alot more depth. Helminth, Shards, focus reworks and the addition of incarnons were welcomed additions though.

Your personal stipulations and definitions for homogenization aren't valid.

[sunderthefirmament]

On 2023-08-14 at 8:39 AM, ShogunGunshow said:

It also lets DE get away with fundamentally terrible design because, oh, you can just patch up what the frame is lacking in the meta with Helminth. 

Agreed. I don’t think there’s any frame where this is more true than for Gyre. She’s binary: a zero of a frame with her base kit, or an absolute one when you put Pillage on her. For high level content, I mean. And there’s a lot I like about Gyre, but if we didn’t have the Helminth I wouldn’t use her. 
 

I go both ways on the Helminth. I think it was a mistake, but I still take advantage of it. I don’t want to lose Gloom on my Garuda. I don’t want to play Gyre without Pillage. I don’t want to give up Perspicacity on my Wukong. And there are some abilities that I just never want to use (Ice Wave, Sol Gate, Ulfrun’s, Navigator, etc.), and the Helminth helps me feel like I’m not missing out. 

[SneakyErvin]

11 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Encouraged content is content we are encouraged to play.

Funny you going back to Garuda in Disruption, seeing as you never backed your claim with specifics.

Which doesnt end at C for me, much less so in disruption and fissures that either hit infinite C, allow specific target farming on a specific rotation or have stacking reward bonuses. Same as with Arbitrations, wasting a good mission on a 1h CD after rota C is extremely pointless considering the same mode likely wont show again for hours. A mode where frame and loadout choice also matters more since you dont wanna risk it on something that might get 1HK'd as you go further, or risks the operative in defense to get killed.

Well I did. Her innate damage buff along with ever scaling damage and forced stun (that works on demo) gives her a good edge. When you start combining infinite energy and gloom that edge increases since suddenly energy drain conduits dont matter and Demos are always slowed.

21 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Your personal stipulations and definitions for homogenization aren't valid. Next.

They arent personal though, since it is in the facts that we do get more options and frames get turned more unique as we use those options compared to the baseline of the frame. Meaning our loadout also increases in uniqueness to someone else using the exact same frame as the base.

It's as if you've run out of counter arguments to the things provided that show we actually increase diversity through our choices and we have the width and depth to be unique in our loadouts while still being valid choices to tackle the content.

 

[Silligoose]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which doesnt end at C for me, much less so in disruption and fissures that either hit infinite C, allow specific target farming on a specific rotation or have stacking reward bonuses. Same as with Arbitrations, wasting a good mission on a 1h CD after rota C is extremely pointless considering the same mode likely wont show again for hours. A mode where frame and loadout choice also matters more since you dont wanna risk it on something that might get 1HK'd as you go further, or risks the operative in defense to get killed.

Well I did. Her innate damage buff along with ever scaling damage and forced stun (that works on demo) gives her a good edge. When you start combining infinite energy and gloom that edge increases since suddenly energy drain conduits dont matter and Demos are always slowed.

I defined the term so it can be known what level of content I refer to when using the shorthand. If you paid attention, you wouldn't have missed it, twice. I've accounted for higher level play beyond and far beyond that within the discussion as well.

She's nothing special. 

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

They arent personal though, since it is in the facts that we do get more options and frames get turned more unique as we use those options compared to the baseline of the frame. Meaning our loadout also increases in uniqueness to someone else using the exact same frame as the base.

On 2023-08-15 at 3:11 PM, SneakyErvin said:

Homogenized in games mean reduced options and reduced build/spec diversity.

This quote above is your own, personal, made-up definition of homogenization. It is why you don't understand what homogenization actually means. It is why you try to continue to argue that there is increased variety in potential builds for frames despite it not being a point of contention, because you erroneously think if that point is proven, it means there isn't homogenization of frames.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It's as if you've run out of counter arguments to the things provided that show we actually increase diversity through our choices and we have the width and depth to be unique in our loadouts while still being valid choices to tackle the content.

On 2023-08-09 at 3:37 PM, Silligoose said:

Should the devs decide they want to give more variety in viable builds for each class and due to changes, we end up with a situation in which all classes can tank more than well enough, all can heal more than well enough, deal damage, debuff enemies, do melee damage, do ranged damage, do spell damage etc more than well enough, the increase in variety for each build came at the cost of variety in class being less impactful. The level of homogenization led to variety in class becoming rather superficial.

I've not argued that homogenization options don't increase build options for individual frames, because I don't need to. In fact, as shown in the analogy above, the cost of increased variety in classes/archetypes, can be homogenization, which is what has been happening in Warframe. They aren't mutually exclusive concepts.

You've confused yourself to the point where you don't even know what the discussion is about.

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Silligoose said:

This quote above is your own, personal, made-up definition of homogenization. It is why you don't understand what homogenization actually means. It is why you try to continue to argue that there is increased variety in potential builds for frames despite it not being a point of contention, because you erroneously think if that point is proven, it means there isn't homogenization of frames.

Nope not really at all. Even according to your own definition and those you provided it practically means it isnt if it results in things moving further apart. And that is the case of WF where we move more apart than closer together for every individual choice make for a frame/loadout.

15 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I've not argued that homogenization options don't increase build options for individual frames, because I don't need to. In fact, as shown in the analogy above, the cost of increased variety in classes/archetypes, can be homogenization, which is what has been happening in Warframe. They aren't mutually exclusive concepts.

You've confused yourself to the point where you don't even know what the discussion is about.

No that part isnt true at all. Increased variety would imply heterogenous i.e the opposite of what you claim. You've simply added your own requirement to it, that if it isnt different enough in your oopinion it isnt different and instead the same. You've even claimed that involving the operator is the same as using a skill, even though it utilizes a compeltely different system. You've also claimed Probo Cernos is the same as using Larva, Entangle or the Operator. Yet they are 4 actually diverese options that synergive with 3 different systems of the game to achieve something. All with different limitations regarding how you can access them or not.

 

[Silligoose]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Nope not really at all. Even according to your own definition and those you provided it practically means it isnt if it results in things moving further apart. And that is the case of WF where we move more apart than closer together for every individual choice make for a frame/loadout.

No that part isnt true at all. Increased variety would imply heterogenous i.e the opposite of what you claim. You've simply added your own requirement to it, that if it isnt different enough in your oopinion it isnt different and instead the same. You've even claimed that involving the operator is the same as using a skill, even though it utilizes a compeltely different system. You've also claimed Probo Cernos is the same as using Larva, Entangle or the Operator. Yet they are 4 actually diverese options that synergive with 3 different systems of the game to achieve something. All with different limitations regarding how you can access them or not.

 

Not only do you continue to struggle with the definition of homogenization, but you also struggle to distinguish between same and similar. I see little point in furthering discussion as a result. We've reached an impasse.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Not only do you continue to struggle with the definition of homogenization, but you also struggle to distinguish between same and similar. I see little point in furthering discussion as a result. We've reached an impasse.

I have no trouble to distinguish between the two. I'm not the one using "increased variety" and "homogenization" in the same sentence.

The thing is, that when things move towards a similar point while at the same time moving away from a current similar or same the two effectively cancel eachother out for there to be such an absolute definition tied to it. You have homogenization at one end and heterogenization at the other. If the game only got more homogenous with the choice it would be one thing, but every choice also results in more differences within the system(s) i.e more diversity, more choices and options, more dissimilarity etc.

We arent moving towards homogenization more than we are moving towards a more heterogenous system. In reality things were far closer to eachother before we got more options introduced. Mods, arcanes, shards, focus schools, weapons with different mechanics and so on each adds more dissimilarity between loadouts.

Edited August 20, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[Silligoose]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I have no trouble to distinguish between the two.

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You've even claimed that involving the operator is the same as using a skill,

Prove this claim then. Without being able to do so, you either confirm not understanding the difference between "same" and "similar", or confirm wilfully lying about what I've claimed.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The thing is, that when things move towards a similar point while at the same time moving away from a current similar or same the two effectively cancel eachother out for there to be such an absolute definition tied to it. You have homogenization at one end and heterogenization at the other. If the game only got more homogenous with the choice it would be one thing, but every choice also results in more differences within the system(s) i.e more diversity, more choices and options, more dissimilarity etc.

We arent moving towards homogenization more than we are moving towards a more heterogenous system. In reality things were far closer to eachother before we got more options introduced. Mods, arcanes, shards, focus schools, weapons with different mechanics and so on each adds more dissimilarity between loadouts.

23 hours ago, Silligoose said:

You've confused yourself to the point where you don't even know what the discussion is about.

You lost the plot again as the point of contention is homogenization of frames. You don't seem to get it. It's fine.

Edited August 20, 2023 by Silligoose

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Prove this claim then. Without being able to do so, you either confirm not understanding the difference between "same" and "similar", or confirm wilfully lying about what I've claimed.

You lost the plot again as the point of contention is homogenization of frames. You don't seem to get it. It's fine.

You claimed that there werent much of a difference between stripping armor with the operator or a skill. Yet it requires two completely different systems with different systems witht heir own rules and regulations etc.

Which isnt true either, since like I said the moment you use a helminth skill you also move further away from the baseline. Thus more diversity at the same time as you move closer towards another frame. Ontop of that the frame you place the helminth on will likely utilize the skill differently from the one it is innate to since it will be picked due to how it completes that specific kit.

Gloom for instance on Garuda isnt used for the healing or slow, it is used in order to allow her infinite energy sustain. On other frames it is most often a heavy energy drain skill because you likely use it for both healing and slow.