I am so disappointed with all the nerfed Helminth abilities.

[Silligoose]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That isnt due to homogenization, that is due to the roster having over 50 frames to pick from, where things simply overlap at some point. And we as players can further diversify the roster and move further from what you call homogenization by the options we have. The parts that make a frame unique are still there and overlap to a far smaller extent.

Want a loot frame? You have 4 choices out of 50 in that case, only one with it innate to the kit.

Want an offensive team buffer? Same deal there, only a handful out of the 50+ do that, and to different degrees at that depending on what their kit actually benefits from in stats. Chroma for instance, while a team buffer, is a poor one in comparison to Rhino, since Chroma doesnt really benefit from range and his buffs do not stick to players innately. Then you have others not intended to be team buffers naturally and require augments for it etc.

Want a node defense frame? Same handful of choices there to protect objectives in a safe manner. All also working differently from eachother.

They all also appeal to different playstyles, meaning homogenization is even less of a thing, because a different playstyle means different gameplay. Which in the end means the choice is impactful on the gameplay.

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

As mentioned before, there are nuanced differences and specific mechanics that are not so easily replicated, but the level of homogenization is ridiculous in Warframe. Different frames really do not play worlds apart and the choice in frame really doesn't matter all that much later on in progression.

One can be a team buffer regardless of frame. One can defend nodes easily regardless of frame. At higher levels of progression these are done rather similarly, due to the universal options available regardless of frame and rather poor balance.

If you don't see it, you don't see it. That's fine.

Edited August 9, 2023 by Silligoose

[(PSN)Sentiel]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But why though when he already has a skill that allows you to actively "block" nearly all damage and another that constantly replenishes his shields, meaning no health damage is taken?

I also gotta ask, how does slapping Azure shards and gloom on all frames make them play the same? They share at that point 1 thing, their main approach towards survivability. Or do you not use the rest of their kit? I mean if I slap Gloom on say Styanax for some reason I'd still bombard the enemy with my spears for killing and make sure shields and energy are maintained through #3. If I slap it on Banshee I'd still make sure to sonar everything as needed and keep silence up while using guns 99.99% of the time to kill.

And picking between Styanax and Banshee in that case would be picking between two vastly different playstyles and gameplay approaches towards combat, even if they'd share the same skill and shard setup.

The point I was trying to make was that you can put Gloom and Azure Shards (for Armor) on any frame and resolve most of their survivability concerns, effectively removing one of the distinctions between them.

You could say it allows them more freedom to use their other abilities more since survival is no longer an issue, but at the same time you could also say it removes a part of their original gameplay and makes them all feel the same.

 

As for my Volt, I have Gloom and Azure Shards on him simply to give my Kubrow more survivability through Link mods. Volt himself doesn't need it, but being able to constantly heal my Kubrow with everything I do helps the otherwise crap companion survivability tremendously.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Stuff

Again, i dont see the point. I dont think it should be nerfed unless it's "op" or an outlier in some way or so good it makes other options a non option.

I dont think any of those are true. 

12 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

It's probably not enough of a nerf to do much--I was just cribbing Traum's suggestion from earlier.   How many people use it, the same as now or fewer, doesn't matter to me.  The goal would be to make it more of a signature power of Sevagoth, and less one of Banshee, etc. 

My  opinion is that all abilities should work best,  on paper, on their native frame.  In  the majority of instances that could be done by boosting the base ability rather than nerfing the helminth version.  I don't think that works in cases like Gloom and Breach Surge.

OTOH I also think DE has gone too far with some of their helminth nerfs. 

I dont see it as sev's "signature". I dont see a point in nerfing it. 

[Tiltskillet]

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I dont see it as sev's "signature". I dont see a point in nerfing it. 

:P

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

:P

Scenario a: gloom gets nerfed but its a small enough nerf that the use-cases for it dont really change and nothing really changes gameplay wise. 

Scenario b) gloom gets nerfed into the ground in typical-for-de fashion and the playerbase generally decides "alright F that ability".

 

Scenario A doesnt change anything and Scenario B just decreases the list of "good" helminth abilities from 6 (or whatever it is not the point dont give me S#&$ for picking a number) to 5. 

Less player choice for no reason makes the game worse, not better.

[Tiltskillet]

15 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Scenario a: gloom gets nerfed but its a small enough nerf that the use-cases for it dont really change and nothing really changes gameplay wise. 

Scenario b) gloom gets nerfed into the ground in typical-for-de fashion and the playerbase generally decides "alright F that ability".

 

Scenario A doesnt change anything and Scenario B just decreases the list of "good" helminth abilities from 6 (or whatever it is not the point dont give me S#&$ for picking a number) to 5. 

Less player choice for no reason makes the game worse, not better.

Yes, yes, of course those are the only two possibilities.

Spoiler

...in WF General Discussion.

 

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, Silligoose said:

One can be a team buffer regardless of frame. One can defend nodes easily regardless of frame. At higher levels of progression these are done rather similarly, due to the universal options available regardless of frame and rather poor balance.

If you don't see it, you don't see it. That's fine.

There is still a big difference between doing it with the frame intended or the one that picked it up as Helminth, or the one that does it reliably for X seconds etc. So choices still matter. You also manage to point out the reason why choices matter less over time, namely poor balance a.k.a power creep. Which is not at all connected to homogenization and can be a problem no matter if the system is deep and wide, shallow and narrow or somewhere in between. In the end we have a multitude of ways to play each single frame and game mode, that is very much not what you get with a homogenized system. 

Really not sure why you suddenly attribute homogenization to something like "One can defend nodes easily regardless of frame", since that really isnt it, unless every frame defends the object with roughly the same gameplay, which they dont. And the higher you get, the more important the defensive skills become. Just look at what happens in high level excav if you leave an excavator unattended. Poof gone.

Then we can just go look at Disruption aswell the higher we get in levels, and how much the frame choice impacts the success and smoothness of a run. There is quite the difference doing a high level Disruption with Garuda instead of Revenant, Loki or Nekros. Just as there is a difference in what weapons you bring.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

The point I was trying to make was that you can put Gloom and Azure Shards (for Armor) on any frame and resolve most of their survivability concerns, effectively removing one of the distinctions between them.

You could say it allows them more freedom to use their other abilities more since survival is no longer an issue, but at the same time you could also say it removes a part of their original gameplay and makes them all feel the same.

The only distinctions aswell as "original gameplay" I can think of is that those frames were hit by the poor design bat at start and simply suffered due to horrible surviviability design. Because there is no balance involved, or any unique gameplay tied to a frame starting the game with 75 armor instead of 350. What is the reason for say Banshee to be a low armor frame compared to Kullervo or Lavos for instance? What in her kit and gameplay justifies that or gives her some unique mechanic in return?

I'd get the idea behind it if all the frames that were low armor/hp frames actually had kits that worked with that design, like giving them activie survivability options in their kits that allows for sustain and so on in different ways. That just isnt how it is though for the majority of those frames, we have a select few like Mag and Volt, the latter needing an augment for it to boot.

And if survivability makes two frames feel the same, then I have no clue what you do with their kit. Kullervo and Rhino, two frames with a reliance on Overguard now, still they feel completely different to play. Lavos, Grendel, Inaros and Nidus, health based armor frames, with 4 completely different playstyles in the end. Volt, Mag, Nyx and Banshee, with two sharing similar shield sustain mechanics, beyond that all 4 play completely different, even if all are modded for armor shards and gloom.

16 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Again, i dont see the point. I dont think it should be nerfed unless it's "op" or an outlier in some way or so good it makes other options a non option.

You dont see the point in an outlier skill getting changed while at the same time you think an "op" or outlier skill could indeed get a nerf? Since that is exactly what Gloom is, regarding both points, both and "op" skill and an outlier for Helminth.

@Tiltskillethas the right idea and good reasoning in the example regarding Sev, Gloom and Helminth.

 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

You dont see the point in an outlier skill getting changed while at the same time you think an "op" or outlier skill could indeed get a nerf? Since that is exactly what Gloom is, regarding both points, both and "op" skill and an outlier for Helminth.

@Tiltskillethas the right idea and good reasoning in the example regarding Sev, Gloom and Helminth.

 

You sneak in the premise that its "op" and an outlier and i see it as neither of those things.

I dont buy that the slow is op, when you need to build a certain way to get that much out of it, and even if you completely ignore that relevant fact there are several other crowd control abilities that either mess with enemies ability to do damage (shooting gallery), make the enemy AI basically non existent, (octavia's thing), or any of the blind cc abilities that basically turn the ai completely off. (Radial blind, breach surge, pocket sand, pull, larva, ensnare)

If none of those other things existed then i could maybe understand why someone would think that the cc aspect is OP.

 

As for the healing, sure its a pretty strong healing ability arguably the best but its not like we dont have other ways to heal ourselves that almost make this a non point or better yet frames and abilities that can mitigate damage to .0something percent or avoid damage entirely.

 

It isnt like gloom is such an overwhelmingly good choice that it makes all the other helminth abilities irrelevant (like bramma did for weapons) 

 

I dont see a "problem" here that would be fixed by nerfing it. But even if DE just removed it from the game okay then what. 

 

Wed all shrug and take one choice off the list of "good" helminth abilities.

 

 

[Silligoose]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

There is still a big difference between doing it with the frame intended or the one that picked it up as Helminth, or the one that does it reliably for X seconds etc. So choices still matter. You also manage to point out the reason why choices matter less over time, namely poor balance a.k.a power creep. Which is not at all connected to homogenization and can be a problem no matter if the system is deep and wide, shallow and narrow or somewhere in between. In the end we have a multitude of ways to play each single frame and game mode, that is very much not what you get with a homogenized system. 

Really not sure why you suddenly attribute homogenization to something like "One can defend nodes easily regardless of frame", since that really isnt it, unless every frame defends the object with roughly the same gameplay, which they dont. And the higher you get, the more important the defensive skills become. Just look at what happens in high level excav if you leave an excavator unattended. Poof gone.

Then we can just go look at Disruption aswell the higher we get in levels, and how much the frame choice impacts the success and smoothness of a run. There is quite the difference doing a high level Disruption with Garuda instead of Revenant, Loki or Nekros. Just as there is a difference in what weapons you bring.

At higher levels of progression there really isn't that big a difference when comparing an original buffer or a buffer via Helminth, in part because the difference between the original and the Helminth version isn't that big and in part because buffs serve little practical purpose when one wields higher levels of player power, even if they do add 50%, 100% or even more damage by way of firing faster/doing more damage/having an element added to attacks/increasing crit, because at higher levels of player power it either means players go from one-shotting enemies to.. one-shotting enemies with bigger overkill numbers, or go from killing enemies with sustained damage very very fast to... killing enemies with sustained damage very very fast. It isn't very impactful. If you disagree go ahead and state your case.

How do you think players defend objectives when they wield higher levels of player power? I'm curious as to the gameplay it entails in your opinion. Are they using someone like Frost, Limbo, Gara or Volt to prevent enemies from being able to damage the objective, throw in some cc, whilst taking them out (whichin all honesty is a playstyle that falls off due to more effort being required compared to other options)? Slap Resonator (a universal option available to any frame) on and watch enemies literally run past you, your allies and even the objective to go shoot that stupid ball. The resulting gameplay is quite similar and I'd argue in some cases, a little easier. Maybe you were thinking more along the lines of even higher levels of player power that requires even less effort, such as encountered with someone like Khora, Vauban or Zephyr, who clump enemies and dispose of them easily. Resonator's augment can help with that, together with Void Snare. Alternatively, for something more similar, slap a Helminth grouping option like Ensnare onto any frame, group enemies over a large area and dispose of them. You would have to press the grouping button a little more than Khora or Vauban, but the gameplay is very similar: Group enemies of a large area and kill the group. Defense objective is safe. Again, if there is another defence style that utilizes higher levels of player power, lay it out. I am curious.

Disruption... Kill some enemies, get a key, activate a Conduit, kill the Demolisher/Demolyst. That's the goal, and at higher levels of player power, it is comfy with Magus Lockdown for Demolsiher/Demolyst cc (you can use Ensnare, but I prefer Magus Lockdown), equip some high damage weapon, equip a primer, get defence strip by way of Helminth or Focus School or melee weapon... These are all options for any frame and this is the basis for a pretty easy Disruption run when these options are available. Mobs aren't a threat, as they are flimsy and any frame can be tanky enough to not worry about them within encouraged content (SP up to rotation C) There are various invisibility options if you want to go niche and I'm not sure what you think is extremely unique about Garuda or Nekros gameplay in Disruption. 

Yes, balance is a big part of what leads to choice in frame not being all that impactful at higher levels of player power. I honestly wish it wasn't the case. I wish the buffs I get from a teammate, offensive or defensive, had a more pronounced impact on gameplay within encouraged content whilst wielding lategame player power. I wish the various mechanics that made certain frames at lower levels of player power more impactful choices in certain missions, like Defense, remained impactful and that power creep and universal options didn't diminish their impact to the degree it does. I'd have loved for DE not to arbitrarily nerf certain abilities when used against something like a Demolisher. Unfortunately for me and other players who were hoping for something similar, that just isn't the case. DE doesn't seem interested in ensuring frame choice is impactful at higher levels of player power.  Just look at Archons - DE purposefully made them immune to various frame abilities. This means they purposefully decreased the impact of frame choice in these fights.

To me it seems obvious that DE wanted to create an environment where one can do pretty much anything, have any archetype, regardless of frame choice. That's why there are so many options that lead to homogenization, which leads to actual frame choice not being very impactful.

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, Silligoose said:

At higher levels of progression there really isn't that big a difference when comparing an original buffer or a buffer via Helminth, in part because the difference between the original and the Helminth version isn't that big and in part because buffs serve little practical purpose when one wields higher levels of player power, even if they do add 50%, 100% or even more damage by way of firing faster/doing more damage/having an element added to attacks/increasing crit, because at higher levels of player power it either means players go from one-shotting enemies to.. one-shotting enemies with bigger overkill numbers, or go from killing enemies with sustained damage very very fast to... killing enemies with sustained damage very very fast. It isn't very impactful. If you disagree go ahead and state your case.

How do you think players defend objectives when they wield higher levels of player power? I'm curious as to the gameplay it entails in your opinion. Are they using someone like Frost, Limbo, Gara or Volt to prevent enemies from being able to damage the objective, throw in some cc, whilst taking them out (whichin all honesty is a playstyle that falls off due to more effort being required compared to other options)? Slap Resonator (a universal option available to any frame) on and watch enemies literally run past you, your allies and even the objective to go shoot that stupid ball. The resulting gameplay is quite similar and I'd argue in some cases, a little easier. Maybe you were thinking more along the lines of even higher levels of player power that requires even less effort, such as encountered with someone like Khora, Vauban or Zephyr, who clump enemies and dispose of them easily. Resonator's augment can help with that, together with Void Snare. Alternatively, for something more similar, slap a Helminth grouping option like Ensnare onto any frame, group enemies over a large area and dispose of them. You would have to press the grouping button a little more than Khora or Vauban, but the gameplay is very similar: Group enemies of a large area and kill the group. Defense objective is safe. Again, if there is another defence style that utilizes higher levels of player power, lay it out. I am curious.

Disruption... Kill some enemies, get a key, activate a Conduit, kill the Demolisher/Demolyst. That's the goal, and at higher levels of player power, it is comfy with Magus Lockdown for Demolsiher/Demolyst cc (you can use Ensnare, but I prefer Magus Lockdown), equip some high damage weapon, equip a primer, get defence strip by way of Helminth or Focus School or melee weapon... These are all options for any frame and this is the basis for a pretty easy Disruption run when these options are available. Mobs aren't a threat, as they are flimsy and any frame can be tanky enough to not worry about them within encouraged content (SP up to rotation C) There are various invisibility options if you want to go niche and I'm not sure what you think is extremely unique about Garuda or Nekros gameplay in Disruption. 

Yes, balance is a big part of what leads to choice in frame not being all that impactful at higher levels of player power. I honestly wish it wasn't the case. I wish the buffs I get from a teammate, offensive or defensive, had a more pronounced impact on gameplay within encouraged content whilst wielding lategame player power. I wish the various mechanics that made certain frames at lower levels of player power more impactful choices in certain missions, like Defense, remained impactful and that power creep and universal options didn't diminish their impact to the degree it does. I'd have loved for DE not to arbitrarily nerf certain abilities when used against something like a Demolisher. Unfortunately for me and other players who were hoping for something similar, that just isn't the case. DE doesn't seem interested in ensuring frame choice is impactful at higher levels of player power.  Just look at Archons - DE purposefully made them immune to various frame abilities. This means they purposefully decreased the impact of frame choice in these fights.

To me it seems obvious that DE wanted to create an environment where one can do pretty much anything, have any archetype, regardless of frame choice. That's why there are so many options that lead to homogenization, which leads to actual frame choice not being very impactful.

You're aware that most of what you say, especially in segment 2 and 3 strengthens the point that the game is not homogenized. You line up several different approaches to achieve something, in a classless, roleless game, all approaches that result in different gameplay and playstyles to achieve the end goal. Seems like according to you games such as the Elder Scrolls series, Fallout and Divinity for instance are also homogenized games, not to mention several free choice pen and paper rpg systems out there.

You also manage to scew things in an odd way, like comparing baseline defense frames to any other frame with a helminthed ability for defensive jobs. Does it not occur to you that helminth defensive skills are not limited to non-defense frames, and can be used on already defense focused frames to further increase the potential of their job. Just as the case with Garuda and Demo killing, where she can also use the skills to lock down demos even longer (which honestly isnt needed due to her innate stun and scaling slash).

There is nothing unique about Nekros gameplay in Disruption, that is the point, hence why he is brought up with the others as opposites to Garuda, which is a frame very well suited for single target killing of constantly increasing levels. 

Also, if as you claim, choice didnt really matter, then how come there is such a massive gap between the usage of frames? And why are we seeing demands of reworks for several of them if Helminth and other options are so homogenizing as you claim. At that point no frame would need reworks, since choice according to you dont matter and helminth, shards and so on should solve everything else that might lack on one frame compared to another.

Lets also ignore that we have quite a few frames on the roster that practically never needs to fire their gun or swing their melee to kill efficiently. Would that be part of a homogenized system? Nope since everything would be nearly identical and play close to the same no matter the choice. Yet we sit here with frames that have a heavy near mandatory weapon focus, others with a mix to either a higher or lower extent and then we have those that simply do not care about weapons. Just there you already have 3 distinct gameplay approaches and styles.

15 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Wed all shrug and take one choice off the list of "good" helminth abilities.

Because overnerfing is the only option you see. Stop looking at it in such a black and white way. There is a wide selection of things that could be done to Gloom to still make it a good Helminth choice. I mean, Roar is only half strength and still a very solid Helminth option. Fractured Blast the same and so on. So there is alot of room to alter Gloom into something more balanced for a skill that can be applied to every frame and keeping it more unique to Sevagoth.

Even if the slow is cut in half it will still be a strong option. Both for the slow effect and the life steal.

Edited August 11, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[Silligoose]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You're aware that most of what you say, especially in segment 2 and 3 strengthens the point that the game is not homogenized. You line up several different approaches to achieve something, in a classless, roleless game, all approaches that result in different gameplay and playstyles to achieve the end goal. Seems like according to you games such as the Elder Scrolls series, Fallout and Divinity for instance are also homogenized games, not to mention several free choice pen and paper rpg systems out there.

You also manage to scew things in an odd way, like comparing baseline defense frames to any other frame with a helminthed ability for defensive jobs. Does it not occur to you that helminth defensive skills are not limited to non-defense frames, and can be used on already defense focused frames to further increase the potential of their job. Just as the case with Garuda and Demo killing, where she can also use the skills to lock down demos even longer (which honestly isnt needed due to her innate stun and scaling slash).

There is nothing unique about Nekros gameplay in Disruption, that is the point, hence why he is brought up with the others as opposites to Garuda, which is a frame very well suited for single target killing of constantly increasing levels. 

Also, if as you claim, choice didnt really matter, then how come there is such a massive gap between the usage of frames? And why are we seeing demands of reworks for several of them if Helminth and other options are so homogenizing as you claim. At that point no frame would need reworks, since choice according to you dont matter and helminth, shards and so on should solve everything else that might lack on one frame compared to another.

Lets also ignore that we have quite a few frames on the roster that practically never needs to fire their gun or swing their melee to kill efficiently. Would that be part of a homogenized system? Nope since everything would be nearly identical and play close to the same no matter the choice. Yet we sit here with frames that have a heavy near mandatory weapon focus, others with a mix to either a higher or lower extent and then we have those that simply do not care about weapons. Just there you already have 3 distinct gameplay approaches and styles.

My stance is that there is homogenization of frames and that it is unhealthy in Warframe. Both Fallout and Elder Scrolls are largely solo franchises. Those games are also less reliant on player retention, seeing as they are b2p games with no expansions of classes planned at this point to my knowledge. I believe in Skyrim and Oblivion there is indeed homogenization and that the class one picks doesn't impact later stages of the game too greatly. I've not played Divinity and can't comment on homogenization in that game and can't comment on free choice pen and paper rpg's.

There are various reasons for discrepancies in frame use, ranging from theme, to aesthetic, to innate frame power, to ease of acquisition, to enjoyment of use, to satisfaction of use etc.

Reworks... there are a lot of reasons people could be asking for them:

• Many people seem to like a frame's theme, despite disliking their abilities or associated playstyle, so they request a rework.
• Some people ask for reworks because they don't realize how powerful the innate kit is.
• Some request reworks because a certain ability (or abilities) within the kit seems redundant given the current landscape of the game at lategame, eg Volt's 1. They don't want to use a band-aid and put some other frame's ability on there. They want the frame they like to maintain it's theme and have 4 useful abilities.
• Some people request a rework or revisit to older frames because older frames; their stats/mechanics are out of date relative to newer benchmarks set by newer releases (again Hydroid seems to be requested for this reason as well).
• Some request a rework because they wish for more synergy within the kit

There are various reasons players want a rework, but it doesn't seem as though players are of like mind to DE's idea that reworks won't be needed because they can just use Helminth and/or Operator. 

I said in a previous post: "Frames only play completely different from one another at rather specific levels of balance that is encountered more towards early-to midgame or with regards to very, very specific mechanics." Yeah, picking Wukong or Titania allows one to fly. It seems like you want to focus on some niche mechanic that can't be replicated 100% and completely overlook how different archetypes lose what makes them unique due to various homogenization options.  

As mentioned in my previous post, if there are other defence styles that is utilized at higher levels of player power, lay it out. Same goes for Garuda in Disruption.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

My stance is that there is homogenization of frames and that it is unhealthy in Warframe. Both Fallout and Elder Scrolls are largely solo franchises. Those games are also less reliant on player retention, seeing as they are b2p games with no expansions of classes planned at this point to my knowledge. I believe in Skyrim and Oblivion there is indeed homogenization and that the class one picks doesn't impact later stages of the game too greatly. I've not played Divinity and can't comment on homogenization in that game and can't comment on free choice pen and paper rpg's.

There are various reasons for discrepancies in frame use, ranging from theme, to aesthetic, to innate frame power, to ease of acquisition, to enjoyment of use, to satisfaction of use etc.

Reworks... there are a lot of reasons people could be asking for them:

• Many people seem to like a frame's theme, despite disliking their abilities or associated playstyle, so they request a rework.
• Some people ask for reworks because they don't realize how powerful the innate kit is.
• Some request reworks because a certain ability (or abilities) within the kit seems redundant given the current landscape of the game at lategame, eg Volt's 1. They don't want to use a band-aid and put some other frame's ability on there. They want the frame they like to maintain it's theme and have 4 useful abilities.
• Some people request a rework or revisit to older frames because older frames; their stats/mechanics are out of date relative to newer benchmarks set by newer releases (again Hydroid seems to be requested for this reason as well).
• Some request a rework because they wish for more synergy within the kit

There are various reasons players want a rework, but it doesn't seem as though players are of like mind to DE's idea that reworks won't be needed because they can just use Helminth and/or Operator. 

I said in a previous post: "Frames only play completely different from one another at rather specific levels of balance that is encountered more towards early-to midgame or with regards to very, very specific mechanics." Yeah, picking Wukong or Titania allows one to fly. It seems like you want to focus on some niche mechanic that can't be replicated 100% and completely overlook how different archetypes lose what makes them unique due to various homogenization options.  

As mentioned in my previous post, if there are other defence styles that is utilized at higher levels of player power, lay it out. Same goes for Garuda in Disruption.

What does the model have to do with anything? Homogenization is a concept when everything ends up the same. You cant claim that to be a case when a specific goal can be reached through several different options that also alters how you play significantly to reach that goal. Picking Unairu instead of slotting say Tharros Strike is not homogenization, since it turns into a completely different playstyle, since now all of a sudden the operator is also involved actively. Same deal if you go and pick a weapon over a frame skill to get something like a pull ability. Because suddenly you are now giving up 1 out of 3 weapon options in your loadout instead of a skill slot.

Homogenization would imply everything ends up nearly the same and plays nearly the same. 

In WF we dont just have a regular setup where you end up with skills on a class and then weapons are simply stat sticks. The "class" here is the whole build, which includes weapons, pets, frame and operator together. It is more like a free build system like that of elder scrolls games, fallout, Path of Exile and so on. So some frames getting access to something that is also available on a weapon or through the operator isnt homogenization, since it opens up for more choices instead. Homogenization is the opposite, where you dont actually have any real choices. Like when WoW homogenized talents, going from deep specialized trees you could improve each level to picking 1 out of 3 perks each uhm 15 levels instead. Where at some levels you were pinned into a situation where you had to pick between 2 perks you might have used at the same time in the older and deeper system, and where talents you might have skipped under the old system were forced on you by simply picking the overarching specialization.

However, the main problem is that you still lump imbalance together with and equate it to homogenization.

People ask for reworks since they might dislike a playstyle for a frame while liking the theme, but you've just also said that playstyles are the same overall and choices dont matter. So which is it? And then you say "because they don't realize how powerful the innate kit is", but uhm, wasnt everything the same according to you aswell and the choice doesnt really matter? Clearly if there are weak and strong frames the choices must matter. Or maybe I'm just crazy.

You're also taking things to the extreme when it comes to homogenization. Since you seem to be under the idea that frames must "play completely different" at all times in order for you to not class it as homogenized. So then in endgame you are saying you can make a Hydroid by using Helminth, the operator and shards that plays roughly the same as uhm Styanax, Lavos, Titania, Ember, Xaku, Ash or Wukong? 

Also, if I replace uhm say Ice Wave on Frost with Breach Surge, Silence, Resonator or Thermal Sunder, what part of his "archetype" suddenly goes missing? Him getting more defensive options, or the ability to cast a better AoE frost DoT? Which frame loses its archetpe by swapping out 1 of their skills that we dislike? Which frame loses its archetype identity by keeping the kit intact and using a weapon or the operator to fill some purpose they cannot? Is Trinity suddenly losing her supprt/healing archetype identity by slotting Probo Cernos since pulling things together isnt in her kit? Does she lose that identity by replacing her #1 for Blood Altar or maybe Gloom, or perhaps a debuff or buff to further support her group?

edit: Are you saying a frame like Trinity should be forced into Vazarin or maybe Zenurik schools since those fit her archetype? 

Edited August 11, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You're aware that most of what you say, especially in segment 2 and 3 strengthens the point that the game is not homogenized. You line up several different approaches to achieve something, in a classless, roleless game, all approaches that result in different gameplay and playstyles to achieve the end goal. Seems like according to you games such as the Elder Scrolls series, Fallout and Divinity for instance are also homogenized games, not to mention several free choice pen and paper rpg systems out there.

You also manage to scew things in an odd way, like comparing baseline defense frames to any other frame with a helminthed ability for defensive jobs. Does it not occur to you that helminth defensive skills are not limited to non-defense frames, and can be used on already defense focused frames to further increase the potential of their job. Just as the case with Garuda and Demo killing, where she can also use the skills to lock down demos even longer (which honestly isnt needed due to her innate stun and scaling slash).

There is nothing unique about Nekros gameplay in Disruption, that is the point, hence why he is brought up with the others as opposites to Garuda, which is a frame very well suited for single target killing of constantly increasing levels. 

Also, if as you claim, choice didnt really matter, then how come there is such a massive gap between the usage of frames? And why are we seeing demands of reworks for several of them if Helminth and other options are so homogenizing as you claim. At that point no frame would need reworks, since choice according to you dont matter and helminth, shards and so on should solve everything else that might lack on one frame compared to another.

Lets also ignore that we have quite a few frames on the roster that practically never needs to fire their gun or swing their melee to kill efficiently. Would that be part of a homogenized system? Nope since everything would be nearly identical and play close to the same no matter the choice. Yet we sit here with frames that have a heavy near mandatory weapon focus, others with a mix to either a higher or lower extent and then we have those that simply do not care about weapons. Just there you already have 3 distinct gameplay approaches and styles.

Because overnerfing is the only option you see. Stop looking at it in such a black and white way. There is a wide selection of things that could be done to Gloom to still make it a good Helminth choice. I mean, Roar is only half strength and still a very solid Helminth option. Fractured Blast the same and so on. So there is alot of room to alter Gloom into something more balanced for a skill that can be applied to every frame and keeping it more unique to Sevagoth.

Even if the slow is cut in half it will still be a strong option. Both for the slow effect and the life steal.

Im starting to feel like youre only seeing what you want to see here. 

I dont see "over nerfing as the only option" here. 

I never said it was a black and white choice between leave it as is or make it so bad it might as well be deleted from the game entirely.

I just dont agree that nerfing it is necessary like you make it out to be.

If we go by DE's typical metric for when something "has to get nerfed" it would either have to be an overwhelmingly dominant choice (like catchmoon being >50% of all secondaries in the game) or something that cheeses/automates the game (pre nerf ember, old defy, wuclone bramma spam), and it is definitely neither of those things.

There are plenty of helminth abilities that are just as good if not better and it isnt like everyone and their mom uses gloom all the time. Its pretty rare for me to randomly match with someone using it and if i do it might actually be sevagoth doing it. 

 

Which for some reason you seem missile locked on the idea that "that should be HIS thing". And for all i know if they gave *another* one of his abilties to helminth instead youd be sitting here saying NO NO **THAT** SHOULD BE HIS THING.

 

Nerfed roar is still good because having 50% bane damage against everything for 30 seconds is pretty good. If you have more power strength great if you have more duration great. It isnt a demanding ability to build for. 

Lets say just for the sake of argument they came out tomorrow and said okay guys, gloom is now capped at 50% slow for everyone except Sevagoth.

 

What do you think is gonna happen? Suddenly people flock to sevagoth in droves to get full enjoyment out of "his thing?" Cuz im pretty confident that wont happen. 

If they nerf the health steal, considering how much damage we can do compared to how "little" hp we have it would have to be one hell of a nerf to even notice so either a) it doesnt get "overnerfed" and it doesnt matter or b) it does matter and like i said before we end up with a more narrow meta. I dont see that as a good thing.

[Zahnny]

On 2023-08-07 at 8:17 PM, Traumtulpe said:

Tempest Barrage? Did anyone ever use this, even as a joke?

I did, but it was extremely ineffective even with the augment.

I wanted to make an Undyne cosplay with Styanax and thought Tempest Barrage fit the theme of raining down spears.

 

I agree Fractured Blast didn't need a nerf, considering Gara's subsume with the augment is just straight up better in terms of energy generation. Not that Titania needs it, but I put it on her.

I don't think DE should go down the route of nerfing Subsumed Abilities augments but it's still funny in context.

 

One of them that always bothered me is Ivara's subsume. I can "kinda" understand maybe they had trouble getting all 4 sub-abilities work when subsumed, but I feel like they gave us the worst options.

Cloak isn't bad by itself but I feel there are better options with the other subsumes and Noise arrow...Unless there is some hidden stats with Noise arrow that I'm not aware of, I can only see it being used on a few niche frames who are already tailored to Stealth like Loki, and even then I like to replace Decoy with Mind Control anyway.

I understand the Quiver augment can increase your crit but c'mon. Dashwire is the coolest part of her quiver imo.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Zahnny

[Silligoose]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

What does the model have to do with anything? Homogenization is a concept when everything ends up the same. You cant claim that to be a case when a specific goal can be reached through several different options that also alters how you play significantly to reach that goal. Picking Unairu instead of slotting say Tharros Strike is not homogenization, since it turns into a completely different playstyle, since now all of a sudden the operator is also involved actively. Same deal if you go and pick a weapon over a frame skill to get something like a pull ability. Because suddenly you are now giving up 1 out of 3 weapon options in your loadout instead of a skill slot.

Homogenization would imply everything ends up nearly the same and plays nearly the same. 

In WF we dont just have a regular setup where you end up with skills on a class and then weapons are simply stat sticks. The "class" here is the whole build, which includes weapons, pets, frame and operator together. It is more like a free build system like that of elder scrolls games, fallout, Path of Exile and so on. So some frames getting access to something that is also available on a weapon or through the operator isnt homogenization, since it opens up for more choices instead. Homogenization is the opposite, where you dont actually have any real choices. Like when WoW homogenized talents, going from deep specialized trees you could improve each level to picking 1 out of 3 perks each uhm 15 levels instead. Where at some levels you were pinned into a situation where you had to pick between 2 perks you might have used at the same time in the older and deeper system, and where talents you might have skipped under the old system were forced on you by simply picking the overarching specialization.

However, the main problem is that you still lump imbalance together with and equate it to homogenization.

People ask for reworks since they might dislike a playstyle for a frame while liking the theme, but you've just also said that playstyles are the same overall and choices dont matter. So which is it? And then you say "because they don't realize how powerful the innate kit is", but uhm, wasnt everything the same according to you aswell and the choice doesnt really matter? Clearly if there are weak and strong frames the choices must matter. Or maybe I'm just crazy.

You're also taking things to the extreme when it comes to homogenization. Since you seem to be under the idea that frames must "play completely different" at all times in order for you to not class it as homogenized. So then in endgame you are saying you can make a Hydroid by using Helminth, the operator and shards that plays roughly the same as uhm Styanax, Lavos, Titania, Ember, Xaku, Ash or Wukong? 

Also, if I replace uhm say Ice Wave on Frost with Breach Surge, Silence, Resonator or Thermal Sunder, what part of his "archetype" suddenly goes missing? Him getting more defensive options, or the ability to cast a better AoE frost DoT? Which frame loses its archetpe by swapping out 1 of their skills that we dislike? Which frame loses its archetype identity by keeping the kit intact and using a weapon or the operator to fill some purpose they cannot? Is Trinity suddenly losing her supprt/healing archetype identity by slotting Probo Cernos since pulling things together isnt in her kit? Does she lose that identity by replacing her #1 for Blood Altar or maybe Gloom, or perhaps a debuff or buff to further support her group?

edit: Are you saying a frame like Trinity should be forced into Vazarin or maybe Zenurik schools since those fit her archetype? 

The game's model plays a role because it can impact whether homogenization is good or bad and to what degree.

I see no new information regarding Garuda in Disruption or some other gameplay loop at higher levels of player power for defense.

Homogenization is the process of making things similar. The gameplay experienced at lower levels of player power is greatly influenced by frame choice. As more options become available to players as they gain greater player power, the gameplay experienced is influenced less by frame choice. The more options become available, the less an impact frame choice has. 

You seem to have an issue with me referring to options that result in different things becoming more similar as homogenizing options. They make things more similar. Why does the phrase upset you>

Homogenizing options in Warframe tend to reduce innate limitations that may arise from frame choice. As such, loadout archetype tends not to be lost, but expanded on as player power increases, which is why frame choice becomes less impactful towards later stages. Not sure why you'd think an archetype suddenly goes missing.

Imbalances add to gameplay experiences being similar despite different frame choices and even regardless of faction faced. Don't sleep on the impact of imbalances - they lead to gameplay at lategame/endgame being less tactically and strategically diverse as compared to earlier stages of progression, because at earlier stages of progression, when overwhelming damage, extreme durability and endless health/energy regen is not available, various mechanics are required in order to be successful eg positioning, aim, terrain use, damage type, target priority etc play a bigger role in surviving and being successful at lower levels of progression than at higher levels of progression, where things like aim, terrain use, damage type etc just don't play as big a role. Gameplay is more simplistic at lategame/endgame due to imbalances.

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Homogenization is the process of making things similar. The gameplay experienced at lower levels of player power is greatly influenced by frame choice. As more options become available to players as they gain greater player power, the gameplay experienced is influenced less by frame choice. The more options become available, the less an impact frame choice has. 

You seem to have an issue with me referring to options that result in different things becoming more similar as homogenizing options. They make things more similar. Why does the phrase upset you>

Homogenizing options in Warframe tend to reduce innate limitations that may arise from frame choice. As such, loadout archetype tends not to be lost, but expanded on as player power increases, which is why frame choice becomes less impactful towards later stages. Not sure why you'd think an archetype suddenly goes missing.

That is all in power progression though. More choices increase power. That is not what homogenization means since that can be part of any system, no matter what the power progression looks like.

Yes because you use the term in a completely whack way. Options is the main thing here, which is something that is removed or reduced in homogenized system, they dont provide you more so you can play the game "your way". Options are reduced so you play it "their way" no matter which "choice" you pick.

Reducing limitations is the opposite of homogenization, since it is used in order to limit players more while also streamlining things to be the same. Just that you use the phrase "expanded on" means you arent actually talking about a homogenized system. And it was you who claimed archetypes lose what makes them unique. Which is what I asked you aswell, what of the archetype foes missing in the options I provided?

21 hours ago, Silligoose said:

and completely overlook how different archetypes lose what makes them unique due to various homogenization options. 

15 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I see no new information regarding Garuda in Disruption or some other gameplay loop at higher levels of player power for defense.

I'm not sure what exactly you want in the form of information here really. Not really sure I ever mentioned any different gameplay either regarding Garuda or defense frames, just that they did the job better and more efficient than other choices, leading to meaningful impact of picking them instead of something else. Especially when you can further improve their strengths with personal choices that further sets them apart from others. I've also given you examples earlier regarding how our choices matter regarding gameplay and playstyles, like when I mentioned Kullervo and the ability to replace his 1, turning him from a full melee focus into a mid to long ranged frame instead, which suits a completely different playstyle.

And again, can you make up your mind. Are our options expanded on or getting more narrow?

19 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Im starting to feel like youre only seeing what you want to see here. 

I dont see "over nerfing as the only option" here. 

Then why did you use that as the only other example in your response to Tiltskillet earlier? You are of the idea that either it gets nerfed to an unusable state, or it is pointless to nerf it at all. Balance itself is a thing aswell even if it doesnt change the usage numbers of the skill afterwards.

 

[Silligoose]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is all in power progression though. More choices increase power. That is not what homogenization means since that can be part of any system, no matter what the power progression looks like.

Yes because you use the term in a completely whack way. Options is the main thing here, which is something that is removed or reduced in homogenized system, they dont provide you more so you can play the game "your way". Options are reduced so you play it "their way" no matter which "choice" you pick.

Reducing limitations is the opposite of homogenization, since it is used in order to limit players more while also streamlining things to be the same. Just that you use the phrase "expanded on" means you arent actually talking about a homogenized system. And it was you who claimed archetypes lose what makes them unique. Which is what I asked you aswell, what of the archetype foes missing in the options I provided?

Homogenization is the process of making things similar. If you still don't see how frames become homogenized, how their play becomes more similar due to options that become available as players progress, how their archetype that was far more impactful at lower levels of power diminishes in value, then you don't see it. It's ok.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I'm not sure what exactly you want in the form of information here really. Not really sure I ever mentioned any different gameplay either regarding Garuda or defense frames, just that they did the job better and more efficient than other choices, leading to meaningful impact of picking them instead of something else. Especially when you can further improve their strengths with personal choices that further sets them apart from others. I've also given you examples earlier regarding how our choices matter regarding gameplay and playstyles, like when I mentioned Kullervo and the ability to replace his 1, turning him from a full melee focus into a mid to long ranged frame instead, which suits a completely different playstyle.

On 2023-08-11 at 12:46 PM, SneakyErvin said:

Just as the case with Garuda and Demo killing, where she can also use the skills to lock down demos even longer (which honestly isnt needed due to her innate stun and scaling slash).

Go ahead and tell me about the meaningful impact picking Garuda has in high level Disruption missions. Be specific. Look at it from a more specific, micro-perspective pertaining to the abilities used and look at it from a more macro-oriented perspective in terms of mechanics used. You can tell me about defense orientated frames and how meaningful an impact they have on gameplay in defense missions when wielding higher levels of player power in comparison to other frames that make use of homogenizing options such as Resonator. 

Go ahead Kullervo as well. Let's see how wildly different his ranged focussed build play is from other frames.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

And again, can you make up your mind. Are our options expanded on or getting more narrow?

I've already gone through this regarding variety and whether that variety has meaning. This is probably the crux of the matter: You hear "20 different spells" and even if they all work pretty much the same way you'd argue the game has great variety, even though that variety is actually fluff and doesn't serve to impact gameplay much.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

Homogenization is the process of making things similar. If you still don't see how frames become homogenized, how their play becomes more similar due to options that become available as players progress, how their archetype that was far more impactful at lower levels of power diminishes in value, then you don't see it. It's ok.

Go ahead and tell me about the meaningful impact picking Garuda has in high level Disruption missions. Be specific. Look at it from a more specific, micro-perspective pertaining to the abilities used and look at it from a more macro-oriented perspective in terms of mechanics used. You can tell me about defense orientated frames and how meaningful an impact they have on gameplay in defense missions when wielding higher levels of player power in comparison to other frames that make use of homogenizing options such as Resonator. 

Go ahead Kullervo as well. Let's see how wildly different his ranged focussed build play is from other frames.

I've already gone through this regarding variety and whether that variety has meaning. This is probably the crux of the matter: You hear "20 different spells" and even if they all work pretty much the same way you'd argue the game has great variety, even though that variety is actually fluff and doesn't serve to impact gameplay much.

Which options make them more similar the further we get in progression? All I see is power progression making frames "similar" since we arent playing a class based game and most damage output comes from weapons.

I already did in the part you quoted. She has innate stuns, scaling damage and a passive damage buff aswell. She can also improve the damage further or get more CC if she likes/needs. I also covered how defense frames have a more meaningful impact earlier, since like I said, just because they are defense frames at the core it doesnt mean they cant grab more defensive options to make them better than their base version and by extent also increasing the gap to non-defense frames. A Frost with Breach Surge for instance will have more layers of objective defense than a frame that simply grabs resonator or breach surge, since the globe which scales up to 1 million health will be there aswell. Personally I wouldnt use resonator because stray shots can happen, hence why it got chugged out the window the same day I got hold of the Helminth Segment. Or like I mentioned, Frost with Silence, another method of making objectives significanly safer than someone with only Silence. And you can replace Frost with any of the other defense frames, they all make a better choice than a non-defense frame since they can all further improve their defensive ability, which also further strengthens their archetype identity. You can see it easily in modes like the new bonus portal defense where 99% of the mobs eventually show up as Eximus, it is far more layed back with Frost or another defense frame compared to doing it with a dps, tank or CC frame, and that is even when Breach Surge is used across the board. The one exception being Rhino, since his stomp is just bonkers good at abusing the poor eximus and thrax units.

You dont see a difference between playing melee compared to uhm ranged focused? Like eh seriously? You need to be told what that difference is as if the words melee and ranged arent kinda obvious givaways to their different gameplay approaches? Ranged can hang back, make use of ranged melee with no need to get close to trigger the crit buff etc. And only gets close to loot while rebuffing overguard. And depending on what skill you bring instead, locking down the area, spreading statuses or buffing his own damage etc. But mostly it effectively makes use of quick cursing coupled with a gun to wipe maps. Which also allows for very successful use of single target guns even for high density content like SP survival etc.

Which skills do we have that work "pretty much the same"? Why are the Helminth choices often so narrow if we have so many skills that work "pretty much the same"? Sure we have a few innate skills that work similar, like pull effects on Nidus, Khora, Mag and Zephyr. We also have a few similar defense strips, like Shurikens and Chaos Bolts, Avalanche and Terrify, and some similar CC, like Chaos and Disarm (augmented), Vortex, Kraken and S-Dome. But in all of those there is a better and impactful pick.

Frost over Nekros for the AoE armor strip, since Avalanche does not send enemies running all over the place at full speed. Instead if you augment avalanche you can also benefit from overguard and/or massively improved crit chance and crit damage, while innately CCing the enemy in their spot. Terrify can get augments to slow enemies as they run around screaming. Huge impact on efficiency in quite a few modes. Mag or Oberon would also be better picks over Nekros (or any frame with terrify slotted), though Mag needs an augment and Oberon needs more steps to achieve strip.

Ash over Nyx for some content, Nyx over Ash for other.

Khora or Vauban over Hydroid any day of the week no matter which content you run.

And for the frames with a pull. I'd pick either of them for their other skills as needed instead because a pull just isnt that important. Which means I'd skip Nidus due to having no shields and likely end up with Mag since her playstyle is far more enjoyable than Khora and Zephyr, and far more alround with good options to strengthen her through helminth.

edit: Oh and if I'm going for something like the radiation/confuse CC from Chaos or augmented disarm I'd very likely pick Oberon instead, since his kit brings alot more to the table with armor buffs, healing, AoE strips and knockdowns, aswell as good options in helminth to improve his killing potential and/or CC further.

So you see, there is a great deal of impact in which frame you pick, even at higher levels and with different helminth combos.

Edited August 12, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

Then why did you use that as the only other example in your response to Tiltskillet earlier? You are of thepo idea that either it gets nerfed to an unusable state, or it is pointless to nerf it at all. Balance itself is a thing aswell even if it doesnt change the usage numbers of the skill afterwards.

 

"Balance is the third option!"

Its already balanced. 

There are plenty of helminth abilities that are just as good if not better. 

It isnt a dominant choice. 

And clearly DE seems to agree at least for now because its been the way it is for how long already?

If we didnt have so many other options for crowd control/distraction then i could say "sure the slow is OP". But we do.

If we didnt have so many ways to heal i could sorta maybe see the heal being op. But we do. Not to mention shields and shield gating. 

If it outclassed every other helminth ability (or close to it) i could see it being op. But it isnt. 

Im not sorry i dont think we should nerf things just because.

[Silligoose]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which options make them more similar the further we get in progression? All I see is power progression making frames "similar" since we arent playing a class based game and most damage output comes from weapons.

Helminth, shards, focus schools etc. If you see options making frames more similar, it means you see the homogenization. What is the issue? Yes, it occurs in many games. Yes, it is to be expected, but I am of the opinion the degree to which it occurs is too much in Warframe, because decreases the impact of frame choice too greatly:

At lower levels of player power, when we still run around looking for energy and actually care about things like positioning and terrain, choosing a frame like Frost, or Limbo, or Khora instead of Rhino, or Mirage, or Banshee, has a pretty big impact on defense missions, because healing and energy is not abundant and some enemies actually take a few shots to kill because loadouts aren't that strong. These frames also tend to be the better choices, because the gameplay entailed with their innate kits is more effective for defense. (I'm sure you know this, but I want to be more comprehensive in this reply because I don't want to keep revisiting this). Then, as you progress you get stronger, energy becomes abundant, damage outscales enemy durability and oh hey you get access to something like Resonator. Now the difference in gameplay choosing a traditional defense frame and picking whatever with Resonator isn't nearly as big as it was. It is very similar and in some ways, having the whatever frame with Resonator is more effective, albeit slightly, because the defense objective is more than safe enough AND enemies all run to the same area, so unlike when using Frost or Limobo, when onehas to accoutn for danger all sides, one no longer does.

Some frames have innate mobility options that help out in traversing areas of maps that test parkour skill a little more, as seen with some outside sections in Corpus Gas City. At lower levels picking Nezha, or Nova, even Loki or Hydroid, has a distinctly different playstyle in handling these areas, as they can teleport. It was extremely satisfying to get past some of these areas faster due to the choice in frame. Fast forward to higher levels of player power where Spoiler Mode is available and now you can just void sling past those areas. Worse yet, it is objectively just the better way to get past those areas, because it is faster, easier and essentially free, so again innate frame kit and associated archetype is devalued because now everyone can have great mobility. That's an example, but it extends to combat situations as well.

This happens in various mechanics of the game, to the point where the things that made frames unique, made them alluring, just isn't unique anymore and can either be done regardless of frame choice, or it is redundant. Oh look Citrine came out. What makes me excited about this frame? What does she offer in terms of gameplay experience that I can't get with the vast majority of other frames? She inflicts minor slash damage and makes enemies drop orbs. She has damage reduction ability for herself and allies. She has a turret that shoots what I shoot. She has damage boosting ability. Ok, I have enough energy and healing regardless of frame choice, so idgaf about her 1. Enemies aren't a threat, so her 2 isn't alluring. Enemies die in one shot or a fraction of a second, so her 3 serves little purpose. Likewise, her 4 serves no real purpose. Choosing her instead of another frame just isn't going to impact my gameplay much at all. Same goes for other frames. Kullervo seems like he might offer something rather different, but he doesn't. Not at higher levels of player power and that story holds true for many in the roster. Again, I'm not saying they are, because there differences, but when it comes to actual play, the differences are nuanced, because what used to be bigger differences in gameplay, has been all but eliminated due to options that make loadouts play very similar, regardless of frame choice. That is what homgenization options do to this game.

 

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I already did in the part you quoted. She has innate stuns, scaling damage and a passive damage buff aswell. She can also improve the damage further or get more CC if she likes/needs. I also covered how defense frames have a more meaningful impact earlier, since like I said, just because they are defense frames at the core it doesnt mean they cant grab more defensive options to make them better than their base version and by extent also increasing the gap to non-defense frames. A Frost with Breach Surge for instance will have more layers of objective defense than a frame that simply grabs resonator or breach surge, since the globe which scales up to 1 million health will be there aswell. Personally I wouldnt use resonator because stray shots can happen, hence why it got chugged out the window the same day I got hold of the Helminth Segment. Or like I mentioned, Frost with Silence, another method of making objectives significanly safer than someone with only Silence. And you can replace Frost with any of the other defense frames, they all make a better choice than a non-defense frame since they can all further improve their defensive ability, which also further strengthens their archetype identity. You can see it easily in modes like the new bonus portal defense where 99% of the mobs eventually show up as Eximus, it is far more layed back with Frost or another defense frame compared to doing it with a dps, tank or CC frame, and that is even when Breach Surge is used across the board. The one exception being Rhino, since his stomp is just bonkers good at abusing the poor eximus and thrax units.

You remain vague with regards to Garuda's gameplay, as well as the defense frames.

The "extra layer of defense added" by way of breach surge in comparison to a frame with Resonator is like comparing Rhino with Protective Sling to lategame Revenant: In practical terms, the addition of Protective Sling doesn't make Rhino much safer than Revenant against Grineer, since neither are in danger. It's fluff that isn't impactful.

Choosing not to use something like Resonator is choosing to stay at a lower level of player power, which is fine. It is something I do, because I dislike the level of homogenization, When using something like resonator, the addition Snow Globe simply isn't very impactful, because the defense objective is extremely safe already.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You dont see a difference between playing melee compared to uhm ranged focused? Like eh seriously? You need to be told what that difference is as if the words melee and ranged arent kinda obvious givaways to their different gameplay approaches? Ranged can hang back, make use of ranged melee with no need to get close to trigger the crit buff etc. And only gets close to loot while rebuffing overguard. And depending on what skill you bring instead, locking down the area, spreading statuses or buffing his own damage etc. But mostly it effectively makes use of quick cursing coupled with a gun to wipe maps. Which also allows for very successful use of single target guns even for high density content like SP survival etc.

I wanted you to be specific as to Kullervo's ranged gameplay so we can compare it with that of other loadouts in which Kullervo is not the frame choice. Again you remain vague, but it boils down to "group enemies and kill with AoE, but with Kullervo the AoE can spring from a single target weapon". It is a nuanced difference at best.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Frost over Nekros for the AoE armor strip, since Avalanche does not send enemies running all over the place at full speed. Instead if you augment avalanche you can also benefit from overguard and/or massively improved crit chance and crit damage, while innately CCing the enemy in their spot. Terrify can get augments to slow enemies as they run around screaming. Huge impact on efficiency in quite a few modes. Mag or Oberon would also be better picks over Nekros (or any frame with terrify slotted), though Mag needs an augment and Oberon needs more steps to achieve strip.

They all play pretty similarly and given that Terrify is a Helminth option, it means any frame can play similarly in terms of AoE armour strip. Sure with Avalanche enemies freeze and Terrify they instead crawl away at 20% speed, but it isn't that different and no it doesn't affect efficiency much.

Both Overguard and increased damage mechanics are redundant for Frost in encouraged content - it is meaningless variety at higher levels of player power and has almost no practical impact on performance, which means it has almost no impact on gameplay. It gives pretty red numbers I guess.

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Ash over Nyx for some content, Nyx over Ash for other.

Khora or Vauban over Hydroid any day of the week no matter which content you run.

And for the frames with a pull. I'd pick either of them for their other skills as needed instead because a pull just isnt that important. Which means I'd skip Nidus due to having no shields and likely end up with Mag since her playstyle is far more enjoyable than Khora and Zephyr, and far more alround with good options to strengthen her through helminth.

edit: Oh and if I'm going for something like the radiation/confuse CC from Chaos or augmented disarm I'd very likely pick Oberon instead, since his kit brings alot more to the table with armor buffs, healing, AoE strips and knockdowns, aswell as good options in helminth to improve his killing potential and/or CC further.

So you see, there is a great deal of impact in which frame you pick, even at higher levels and with different helminth combos.

Nuanced differences, but at the end of the day frame choice just isn't that impactful at higher levels of player power. The innate strength/allure of many frames is simply diminished by mechanics that become available to everyone, whilst the inherent weaknesses are reduced greatly, maybe even completely. 

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

There are plenty of helminth abilities that are just as good if not better. 

That doesnt mean Gloom nor those abilities are balanced.

15 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Then, as you progress you get stronger, energy becomes abundant, damage outscales enemy durability and oh hey you get access to something like Resonator

You are again just describing generic power progression, not homogenization unless you imply all games that progress and make you stronger while giving you better management are also all homogenized. More mana, more health, more regen, speccing in skills to reduce their cost or morph how they work etc. are just regular progression steps for most games.

15 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Now the difference in gameplay choosing a traditional defense frame and picking whatever with Resonator isn't nearly as big as it was. It is very similar and in some ways, having the whatever frame with Resonator is more effective, albeit slightly, because the defense objective is more than safe enough AND enemies all run to the same area, so unlike when using Frost or Limobo, when onehas to accoutn for danger all sides, one no longer does.

Yes it is just as big as before, since like I said, the defense frames also has the same choice. You could argue that the difference between Octavia and other frames in a defense situation wouldnt be nearly as big. But for every other frame, the different is just the same since they can all pick up that same skill to further improve their already innate defensive kit. So the same applies to the Limbo and Frost, with enemies following that same little ball of aggro. 

16 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Fast forward to higher levels of player power where Spoiler Mode is available and now you can just void sling past those areas. Worse yet, it is objectively just the better way to get past those areas, because it is faster, easier and essentially free, so again innate frame kit and associated archetype is devalued because now everyone can have great mobility.

Which is no different than carrying a specific magic item in another game that grants you an ability that is otherwise innate to a specific class. Teleport in D2, a pair of low level gloves in Divinity or something else in another game. 

16 hours ago, Silligoose said:

This happens in various mechanics of the game, to the point where the things that made frames unique, made them alluring, just isn't unique anymore and can either be done regardless of frame choice, or it is redundant.

But the game isnt about just frames, never has it been either. It is about how the full loadout comes together. Which means more options means more build diversity and not less. As you imply with Citrinie that you already have access to those things, well picking Citrine would allow you to change other things in your loadout, more depth and width to the system, it is not getting more shallow or narrow.

16 hours ago, Silligoose said:

You remain vague with regards to Garuda's gameplay, as well as the defense frames.

The "extra layer of defense added" by way of breach surge in comparison to a frame with Resonator is like comparing Rhino with Protective Sling to lategame Revenant: In practical terms, the addition of Protective Sling doesn't make Rhino much safer than Revenant against Grineer, since neither are in danger. It's fluff that isn't impactful.

Choosing not to use something like Resonator is choosing to stay at a lower level of player power, which is fine. It is something I do, because I dislike the level of homogenization, When using something like resonator, the addition Snow Globe simply isn't very impactful, because the defense objective is extremely safe already.

Again I didnt discuss any different gameplay. I was talking about the strengths compared to other frames for the mode. You added gameplay as some metric to this part of the discussion based on something from another segment where we discussed how gameplay and playstyles can also be altered through frame choices and helminth. Breach Surge adds something that Resonator doesnt, which is improved AoE clearing. And I dont know about you but personally I prefer to spend as little time in missions as possible. Hence why I hate resonator and other skills that slow down the pace with a passion. There is a reason many people drop it on the frame it belongs to even. Not everything is about just keeping the objective unharmed, it is also about increasing the efficiency of the mission. So allowing things to come close while being protected by a barrier is simply faster, since when the enemy gets close enough they get frozen and debuffed for quick killing. And if you play something like Arbi defense where you can pick the spot, the defensive frames along with frames like Protea massively reduce the time you need to spend in the mission.

16 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I wanted you to be specific as to Kullervo's ranged gameplay so we can compare it with that of other loadouts in which Kullervo is not the frame choice.

But why? All of what I said was Kullervo in comparison to Kullervo, where helminth can allow him to play two completely different playstyles. And if you wanna compare it to other frames it was already mentioned in the comparison between Kullervos. His ranged build allows for great use of single target weapons as AoE clear tools thanks to his kit, most notably Curse that makes everything act as an AoE, with the limit of not being able to inflict statuses.

16 hours ago, Silligoose said:

They all play pretty similarly and given that Terrify is a Helminth option, it means any frame can play similarly in terms of AoE armour strip. Sure with Avalanche enemies freeze and Terrify they instead crawl away at 20% speed, but it isn't that different and no it doesn't affect efficiency much.

Which is exactly what I said. There is still a huge difference between the two due to how the skills work and impact the flow of the mission. Even with the augmented Terrify it is a detrimental skill to mission flow due to slowing everything down. It is only a somewhat viable choice on frames like Saryn since she doesnt require LoS. But on her it is quite wasted since her damage output is already high and quite easy to maintain. Slowva aswell as frames with Gloom are already disliked in missions due to turning them into a crawl, the same applies to people bringing Terrify.

16 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Both Overguard and increased damage mechanics are redundant for Frost in encouraged content - it is meaningless variety at higher levels of player power and has almost no practical impact on performance, which means it has almost no impact on gameplay. It gives pretty red numbers I guess.

Not at all. Both have significant impact on performance since it allows him to scale higher aswell as play more safely outside of his bubble.

16 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Nuanced differences, but at the end of the day frame choice just isn't that impactful at higher levels of player power. The innate strength/allure of many frames is simply diminished by mechanics that become available to everyone, whilst the inherent weaknesses are reduced greatly, maybe even completely. 

And you claim I'm vague when you yourself hasnt mentioned a single actual example of things you consider the same really. I also wonder how you can see it as nuanced differences when some of the frames mentioned have an extremely lower kill potential than others. Or do you not care at all about efficiency? Do you enjoy spending pointless amounts of extra time on something for the exact same reward.

Protea for instance in Arbitration defense. It takes her around 40 minutes to clear 12+ waves while keeping the operative 100% safe. The majority of other frames would look at something close to an hour for the same amount of waves. For me that is a significant impact from the frame choice. And you can see the same in other missions, by looking at something like KPM in survival between different frames and loadouts. While it doesnt matter much in the end at this point since we likely arent after generic materials, it still shows a significant difference in the choices we make for our loadout. You'd also likely see the same in defense with your resonator example, since without it the enemies comes to die, with it you need to chase down enemies.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That doesnt mean Gloom nor those abilities are balanced.

Thats *exactly* what it means. 

 

If you have 2 bowling balls on opposite ends of a teeter totter and they both weigh the same you cant tell me theyre "unbalanced."

 

Your only argument is the purely subjective personal opinion that "it should be better on sevagoth because i said so". 

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Thats *exactly* what it means. 

If you have 2 bowling balls on opposite ends of a teeter totter and they both weigh the same you cant tell me theyre "unbalanced."

We have balanced skills in Helminth, we also have imbalanced skills both at the top end and low end. Gloom ends up with the imbalanced skills at the top end, skills that may work as "intended" on their frame but turn imbalanced when they can be placed on any frame. While the imbalanced skills at the top can get nerfed for Helminth in isolation, it is hard to buff the imbalanced low end skills since that would need to be done on the frame they are innate to aswell.

[GPrime96]

On 2023-08-11 at 12:05 PM, Zahnny said:

I did, but it was extremely ineffective even with the augment.

To be honest, Corroding Barrage died when DE got rid of the full armor strip from Corrosive.