I am so disappointed with all the nerfed Helminth abilities.

[Silligoose]

13 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

I think you're wrong about that in theory, but right in practice. What I mean is, yeah, everyone and their mom is putting Gloom / Nourish / any of the damage buffs on their warframe, but that's mostly just because so many abilities suck.

If all the Helminth abilities were useful there'd be a lot more variety.

Many, if not most, of the abilities are useful, but they aren't competitive choices due to some options simply being vastly superior. Together with that, one has to account for Warframe having a power creep problem - it is out of hand. As such, buffing the weaker options, and thereby feeding into power creep, is not wise. 

As for variety: If there is a game with 20 different spells such as fire, ice, water, lightning, earth, wind etc, one could argue there is a lot of variety, but if they all do the same thing in basically the same way, then that variety isn't very impactful. Instead, it is rather shallow and interchangeable, rendering it rather meaningless. It is superficial.

To take it a step further: If there is a game with all sorts of character classes: Warrior, Healer, Bard, Paladin, Berserker, Sorcerer, Rogue and they have inherent strengths and weaknesses as one tends to get from these classes, the variety in classes leads to the experience in playing the same game, the same missions, being different with each class. Which class one chooses is impactful and the variety in class has meaning. Should the devs decide they want to give more variety in viable builds for each class and due to changes, we end up with a situation in which all classes can tank more than well enough, all can heal more than well enough, deal damage, debuff enemies, do melee damage, do ranged damage, do spell damage etc more than well enough, the increase in variety for each build came at the cost of variety in class being less impactful. The level of homogenization led to variety in class becoming rather superficial.

For a game such as Warframe, with the business model it has, I do not think the rampant homogenization is healthy, as it lessens the impact of frame choice, lessens replayability and even lessens the impact of new frames.

There are many factors that has led to the high levels of homogenization in Warframe, with Helminth being prominent. I understand it was introduced to encourage players to farm more frames, potentially buy new frames if only for the new Helminth ability etc, but the pro's outweigh the cons imo.

[Silligoose]

11 hours ago, Voltage said:

Yep. I've, been sharing this concern since Helminth was showcased. Undermining the kit identity Warframes offer to a mission leads to homogenization in a way that feels even worse than the homogenization to weapons that we've also been seeing over time.

Agreed. It is part of the problem I have with DE's pushing of the operator as well.

[SneakyErvin]

What they should do is simply nerf Helminth Gloom. Atleast nerfing (or removing) the speed decrease would result in something. The life leech doesnt matter since no matter if it starts at 0.5%, 1% or 5% it will heal us back to full in no time due to our absurd damage in comparison to our small health pool. Nourish? Remove the energy gain, wouldnt notice a difference eitherway.

I do love the Fractured Blast knee jerk opinion. Making it sound as if it can only ever refill the cost and at a 10% chance at that. Do the same as with Citrine, use it on a frame that benefits from range and profit. End result would be that you get half as many orbs as Citrine, which is still a crapload of orbs.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

16 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

What they should do is simply nerf Helminth Gloom. Atleast nerfing (or removing) the speed decrease would result in something. The life leech doesnt matter since no matter if it starts at 0.5%, 1% or 5% it will heal us back to full in no time due to our absurd damage in comparison to our small health pool. Nourish? Remove the energy gain, wouldnt notice a difference eitherway.

That wouldn't change anything for me tbh. I would maybe have to make a new Styanax build at worst.

The reason I use Gloom is for the healing, mostly to be able to heal my Kubrow with everything I do instead of just melee through Pack Leader because I almost never melee.

Nourish is free Viral damage buff, which allows me great weapon modding freedom. That's much more valuable to me than the increased energy gain.

If people and DE will feel this is more balanced and fair, I'm quite happy with this.

[SneakyErvin]

7 minutes ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

That wouldn't change anything for me tbh. I would maybe have to make a new Styanax build at worst.

The reason I use Gloom is for the healing, mostly to be able to heal my Kubrow with everything I do instead of just melee through Pack Leader because I almost never melee.

Nourish is free Viral damage buff, which allows me great weapon modding freedom. That's much more valuable to me than the increased energy gain.

If people and DE will feel this is more balanced and fair, I'm quite happy with this.

Same. The thing is, if they go and remove the life steal or the viral we'd just end up with two more helminth skills not getting used. Or if they do something I've seen suggested elsewhere for helminth gloom, reduce the range of the skill, it would be a massive buff for me, since I wouldnt mind not having enemies sitting in the field draining energy.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

14 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Same. The thing is, if they go and remove the life steal or the viral we'd just end up with two more helminth skills not getting used. Or if they do something I've seen suggested elsewhere for helminth gloom, reduce the range of the skill, it would be a massive buff for me, since I wouldnt mind not having enemies sitting in the field draining energy.

Remove healing from Gloom and I'll just give Furis to those frames that need it for the Kubrow or Tharros Strike for the rest. Reducing the range is a buff for me as well.

Nourish without Viral would actually hurt me more since I would lose my build variety and freedom but as far as damage goes, I would replace it with Roar. That would be quite expensive and would dip my Helminth resources significantly but it would manageable.

[Traumtulpe]

It's not really relevant here, but if DE wanted to balance Gloom they'd simply have to drop the max slow to 80%. Still good, but no longer better than any other slow in the game.

And Nourish would be a lot more balanced if it gave 75% more energy fixed, instead of the current 500% with some ability strength...

[Silligoose]

13 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

I completely disagree, frames largely play completely differently from one another. 

And adding a self-supporting ability like Eclipse via helminth, has little to effect on "homogenization", nor on how a frame is ultimately played (i.e. my Hildryn plays the same with or without it). Once they start adding abilities like Collective Curse, Landslide, Blaze Artillery, etc... we'll talk. And off the top of my head, Rhino is only frame that has lost some of his identity thanks to Helminth. 

Frames only play completely different from one another at rather specific levels of balance that is encountered more towards early-to midgame or with regards to very, very specific mechanics.

Once players venture a little further into progression and start encountering options that homogenize the game, such as Magus Lockdown, Arcane Blessing, Magus Repair, Helminth options, Operator options etc, frames don't play that differently and choice in frame becomes less impactful, extending to becoming far, far less impactful as one increases player power at lategame into endgame: Which frame should I pick for high damage? Any. Which frame should I pick if I want to tank in SP? Any. Which frame should I pick if I want to cc a lot of enemies? If I want to be a good healer for myself and allies? If I want to strip enemies defences? Any. Any frame can do those things in pretty much the same way. That's homogenization.

We can be realistic and admit the nuanced differences, but let's not pretend that frames play completely differently from each other for the most part of this game.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

What they should do is simply nerf Helminth Gloom. Atleast nerfing (or removing) the speed decrease would result in something. The life leech doesnt matter since no matter if it starts at 0.5%, 1% or 5% it will heal us back to full in no time due to our absurd damage in comparison to our small health pool. Nourish? Remove the energy gain, wouldnt notice a difference eitherway.

I do love the Fractured Blast knee jerk opinion. Making it sound as if it can only ever refill the cost and at a 10% chance at that. Do the same as with Citrine, use it on a frame that benefits from range and profit. End result would be that you get half as many orbs as Citrine, which is still a crapload of orbs.

A lot of helminth abilities just arent good. Period. Ever. Like for example loki decoy.

Some od them are technically not garbage but arent competitive with other options. Like radial blind compared to breach surge. But okay theyre not terrible.

Some of them are just.. so meh theres no point in bothering, but technically arent useless. Like the shocky one from volt.

 

If you nerf gloom, or any of the meta ones, youre just gonna end up with less player choice. Not more. 

And i dont think thats what we need. I dont see glooms slow as that OP when "turn the enemy ai off" options like blinding them exist. I guess you could argue the healing part is kinda op for a healing ability but theres enough other ways to heal im "meh" on that too. 

[Tiltskillet]

24 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

And i dont think thats what we need. I dont see glooms slow as that OP when "turn the enemy ai off" options like blinding them exist.

So nobody should mind in the slightest if it gets capped at 75% for frames that aren't Sevagoth, right? :P

 

[KitMeHarder]

4 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Once players venture a little further into progression and start encountering options that homogenize the game, such as Magus Lockdown, Arcane Blessing, Magus Repair, Helminth options, Operator options etc

Just because you build a frame in a similar way to another via mods/arcanes/etc..., doesn't mean they play the same in the slightest. You're conflating two completely different things. The same way I mod my Burston Prime and Bramma almost completely the same, but they play nothing like one another; It's the same way my Atlas and Saryn are built very similarly, but play nothing like one another.

4 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Which frame should I pick for high damage? Any.

Unless you're lumping in weapon spam, it is not "any" frame. And for the minority that do have good nuking potential, a GoL Xaku plays nothing like a Kullervo, who plays nothing like a Zephyr, who etc...

4 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Which frame should I pick if I want to cc a lot of enemies? If I want to be a good healer for myself and allies? If I want to strip enemies defences? Any. Any frame can do those things in pretty much the same way. That's homogenization.

You're picking a single variable and then not looking at the rest to make a straw man argument. Say I put Terrify on Nyx, and now I have a S#&$tier version of my Mag for armor strip.... But where's the pull, where's the bullet vortex (a big playstyle factor), where's the overshield tanking, where's.... The point being, they don't play the same even if both can strip armor.

Your argument is very conflated.

Edited August 8, 2023 by KitMeHarder

[Silligoose]

14 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Just because you build a frame in a similar way to another via mods/arcanes/etc..., doesn't mean they play the same in the slightest. You're conflating two completely different things. The same way I mod my Burston Prime and Bramma almost completely the same, but they play nothing like one another; It's the same way my Atlas and Saryn are built very similarly, but play nothing like one another.

5 hours ago, Silligoose said:

Once players venture a little further into progression and start encountering options that homogenize the game, such as Magus Lockdown, Arcane Blessing, Magus Repair, Helminth options, Operator options etc, frames don't play that differently and choice in frame becomes less impactful, extending to becoming far, far less impactful as one increases player power at lategame into endgame: : Which frame should I pick for high damage? Any. Which frame should I pick if I want to tank in SP? Any. Which frame should I pick if I want to cc a lot of enemies? If I want to be a good healer for myself and allies? If I want to strip enemies defences? Any. Any frame can do those things in pretty much the same way. That's homogenization.

You seem a little confused: I didn't say two different archetypes of frames will play similarly because they are modded similarly. I said options become available that lead to the choice in frames becoming less impactful and then I expanded on this idea that the lines regarding frame archetypes get blurred as a result of the options that lead to homogenization. I suggest not partially quoting others, as it seems to be leading to you missing the point they are making altogether.

25 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Unless you're lumping in weapon spam, it is not "any" frame. And for the minority that do have good nuking potential, a GoL Xaku plays nothing like a Kullervo, who plays nothing like a Zephyr, who etc...

I'm talking about various mechanics and options in the game that lead to homogenization. I'm not going to exclude one of the mechanics that leads to frame choices being less impactful. Yes, that includes weapons. In case you are wondering it includes arcanes as well. It also includes Archon Shards, Focus Schools, Helminth. 

26 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

You're picking a single variable and then not looking at the rest to make a straw man argument. Say I put Terrify on Nyx, and now I have a S#&$tier version of my Mag for armor strip.... But where's the pull, where's the bullet vortex (a big playstyle factor), where's the overshield tanking, where's.... The point being, they don't play the same even if both can strip armor.

Your argument is very conflated.

The irony here is you thinking I'm looking at just one similarity, but you don't seem aware of how many similarities there are. Once you reach the level of progression where the various homogenization options become available, you may start understanding that the choice in frame is really not that impactful, but let me show you:

• Clumping can come by way of Proboscis Cernos or Void Snare or Exodia Hunt or Magus Anomoly.
• Bullet Attractor (it is a smaller version of Mag's bubble) is Void damage's status effect - players can inflict this regardless of frame used, though there is little value in it in terms of damage output at higher levels of player power since our damage already far exceeds enemy durability when armour stripped.
• With Terrify, Nyx can now AoE armour strip enemies

It isn't just one similarity one can attain, but many. Aside from me going a little extra and showing how similarly actual mechanics of Mag can be replicated, tn terms of actual gameplay comparisons, using either frame, one can health tank encouraged content, or shield builds can be used, or shield gate builds can be used. Regardless of whether one uses Mag or Nyx, one can AoE armour strip enemies. Regardless of which is used, one can clump enemies. Regardless of choice, one can do more than enough damage to obliterate the clumped enemies. Btw Octavia, Banshee, Saryn, Nezha and a lot of other frames can also have a similar playstyle to Mag and/or Nyx, due to homogenization options. That's the point I'm making.

As mentioned before, there are nuanced differences and specific mechanics that are not so easily replicated, but the level of homogenization is ridiculous in Warframe. Different frames really do not play worlds apart and the choice in frame really doesn't matter all that much later on in progression.

[KitMeHarder]

@Silligoose The difference is you're thinking on such a small scale, as if Warframe was any other generic combat game. If this was a game like Genshin, every frame/character having access to a pull would be a big deal. But that's because in Genshin you only have 8 abilities, no extra movement mechanics, you're only killing 5-10 enemies a minute in the endgame, etc... Where in Warframe say I'm in the open world, I have 4 abilities, operator with their 2+ abilities, a necramech with 4 abilities, an archwing with 4 abilites, a parkour system to utilize, 4 different weapons to use, 100+ enemies a minute to kill in the steel path, a giant map wide boss fight, etc...

So having access to the Proboscis Cernos is a minor factor in the grand scheme, equivalent to putting extra health on a Genshin character. "Oh no, the ability to put health on this Genshin character undermines the role of the dedicated tank"... no, just no. It's the same way the P Cernos doesn't invalidate (or even lessen the importance of) Mag's massive 70m pull.

It's like looking at a demigod through the eyes of a mortal. Or an inverse of the analogy, a cataclysmic event of life-or-death for an ant, is just us walking down the sidewalk like it's any other day. The point is, frames having the inferior option to be multiple architypes at once, has no bearing on how most frames are played (especially how they feel to play in practice). Especially for the last ~7 years... and before that the only real difference was you needed a dedicated nanny in the "endgame" to spoon feed you energy via a frame like Trinity (looots of fun for that Trin).

Edited August 9, 2023 by KitMeHarder

[Leqesai]

11 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

So nobody should mind in the slightest if it gets capped at 75% for frames that aren't Sevagoth, right? :P

 

Even with a cap of 50% it is a very powerful ability.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

11 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

So nobody should mind in the slightest if it gets capped at 75% for frames that aren't Sevagoth, right? :P

 

It wouldnt affect me on a personal level because i have *one* gloom build with enough strength to get the slow cap, and i rarely use it, and its more about the healing for me anyway.

 

I would however feel mildly annoyed that rather than do something that would actually improve the system or increase the number of viable choices or do something to make it more fun, they did that, and what would that solve? 

I mean literally what? Slightly less people use gloom? 

Edited August 9, 2023 by (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA

[Tiltskillet]

27 minutes ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

It wouldnt affect me on a personal level because i have *one* gloom build with enough strength to get the slow cap, and i rarely use it, and its more about the healing for me anyway.

I would however feel mildly annoyed that rather than do something that would actually improve the system or increase the number of viable choices or do something to make it more fun, they did that, and what would that solve? 

I mean literally what? Slightly less people use gloom? 

It's probably not enough of a nerf to do much--I was just cribbing Traum's suggestion from earlier.   How many people use it, the same as now or fewer, doesn't matter to me.  The goal would be to make it more of a signature power of Sevagoth, and less one of Banshee, etc. 

My  opinion is that all abilities should work best,  on paper, on their native frame.  In  the majority of instances that could be done by boosting the base ability rather than nerfing the helminth version.  I don't think that works in cases like Gloom and Breach Surge.

OTOH I also think DE has gone too far with some of their helminth nerfs. 

[TheArmchairThinker]

On 2023-08-08 at 3:14 AM, Traumtulpe said:

Yeah they obviously are unbalanced. 95% permanent slow is ridiculous, plus life steal with abilities on top? That's just silly. Viral damage on weapons (without use of an augment!) is already miles ahead of many other helminths, but DE slapped +500% energy gain on top to make people play Grendel. Usage stats > balance in this game.

But Helminth abilities should not be weak. It's just one ability, let us have at least a tiny little bit of fun in this game. Many warframes have abilities you'll never use, abilities that don't even do anything without an augment, and you can have 4 abilities at most.

Having only 4 abilities is already really shallow what gameplay and tactical depth concerns, we really don't need frames with 1-4 abilities that are too crappy to use on top of that.

We can always put the cap on those abilities to match the rest, 50% slow with life steal changed from on damage to on kill, reduced maximum energy gain, etc if you think it's too strong

[Silligoose]

2 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

@Silligoose The difference is you're thinking on such a small scale, as if Warframe was any other generic combat game. If this was a game like Genshin, every frame/character having access to a pull would be a big deal. But that's because in Genshin you only have 8 abilities, no extra movement mechanics, you're only killing 5-10 enemies a minute in the endgame, etc... Where in Warframe say I'm in the open world, I have 4 abilities, operator with their 2+ abilities, a necramech with 4 abilities, an archwing with 4 abilites, a parkour system to utilize, 4 different weapons to use, 100+ enemies a minute to kill in the steel path, a giant map wide boss fight, etc...

So having access to the Proboscis Cernos is a minor factor in the grand scheme, equivalent to putting extra health on a Genshin character. "Oh no, the ability to put health on this Genshin character undermines the role of the dedicated tank"... no, just no. It's the same way the P Cernos doesn't invalidate (or even lessen the importance of) Mag's massive 70m pull.

It's like looking at a demigod through the eyes of a mortal. Or an inverse of the analogy, a cataclysmic event of life-or-death for an ant, is just us walking down the sidewalk like it's any other day. The point is, frames having the inferior option to be multiple architypes at once, has no bearing on how most frames are played (especially how they feel to play in practice). Especially for the last ~7 years... and before that the only real difference was you needed a dedicated nanny in the "endgame" to spoon feed you energy via a frame like Trinity (looots of fun for that Trin).

You are projecting bud. You are the one thinking "on such a small scale", that fails to see the big picture, that fails to account for multiple mechanics, the options available and the overall impact it has. It was shown with your silly Mag/Nyx comparison when you thought the only similarity was AoE armour strip, thought Mag was oh so super special because of a clump mechanic and Bullet Attractor mechanic, and apparently didn't know, due to homogenization options, other frames can also clump, can also shield tank, has access to mini-Mag bubbles (that's how you'll find Bullet Attractor being referred to at times, because of how similar it is to Magnetize - the irony is palpable). 

Here you are again, trying to write off one homogenization option and calling it a day because you aren't accounting for the cumulative effect of all the different homogenization options. You seem the type to see a termite tunnelling, thinking "oh it is only one termite and only one tunnel", then be flabbergasted when the entire wood structure collapses a few weeks later... It isn't just about one little mechanic such as the clump from Proboscis Cernos (or adding health to your character in Genshin). It is about the cumulative effect of various homogenization options and the result: One can tank AND do ridiculous damage far beyond what is needed AND heal oneself extremely well AND have crazy mobility that completely trivializes parts of maps that are designed to test one's parkour abilities a little more (eg sections of Corpus Gas City) AND have AoE cc. Regardless of the frame chosen and associated archetype, one can do all these things and due to the way one can do it, the homogenization options available and the overall poor balance of the game, a lot of gameplay is quite similar at higher levels of player power. It isn't about being able to encompass one of those things within a loadout, but ALL those things. When you get some decent experience in the lategame options available, you may experience it for yourself and at that point you may realize just how rampant homogenization is.

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, (XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA said:

If you nerf gloom, or any of the meta ones, youre just gonna end up with less player choice. Not more. 

If they get nerfed to a point where they no longer are useful. But Gloom could take a heavy hit and still be the best. Just as Nourish could get the energy benefit either reduced or removed completely and it would still be a good skill as a helminth. We also need to remember that a skill doesnt have to be the best pick on every single frame.

14 hours ago, Silligoose said:

• Clumping can come by way of Proboscis Cernos or Void Snare or Exodia Hunt or Magus Anomoly.
• Bullet Attractor (it is a smaller version of Mag's bubble) is Void damage's status effect - players can inflict this regardless of frame used, though there is little value in it in terms of damage output at higher levels of player power since our damage already far exceeds enemy durability when armour stripped.
• With Terrify, Nyx can now AoE armour strip enemies

That results in the opposite of homogenization, since it adds options, options that also do other things and act differently to reach something similar. Homogenization would mean all options would be similar overall, or there only being one option that is universal. A frame sharing one thing with another doesnt mean homogenization. Just that you bring up void damage and Mags skill as similar is very very odd. Last time I checked Void damage doesnt cover a massive area nor does it pull mobs together into that area for total death and doom.

Could you also explain what you mention further down, how Nezha and Saryn for instance can have a similar "playstyle to Mag or Nyx? The last two being worlds apart already and so are the first two. Do you imply that a Nezha or Saryn with say a Probo Cernos and uhm Terrify now acts similar in playstyle to Nyx with the same choices or just a baseline Mag with a different weapon loadout, or a Nekros with Larva? Clearly they dont, since Nezha also comes with maintaining a tanking tool, debuffing enemies/spreading chakram damage and synergizing that with spears. And Saryn, well she is still a massive AoE dps with also naturally tanky stats aswell as top of the line debuffs and weapon buffs. Ontop of that, you pick a specific weapon for 3 of them, meaning they wont be able to do what the other 3 are doing with that weapon slot. And if the frames do it with operator choices, well then you lock yourself out of other schools, schools that may be used on the frame that have the skills naturally. 

If anything, WF is at the other side of homogenization, since two frames of the same type can offer very different experiences and playstyles due to Helminth. Just look at Kullervo, intended to be a melee frame, but thanks to helminth he can be built into a wonderful mid to long range frame with another ability instead of his #1. That is the opposite of homogenization because the system actually provides choices that can fully alter playstyles for indivirual frames. And while a frame can pick up 1 skill from another, it doesnt mean they'll achieve everything the other frame does.

You are at the point of saying that Final Fantasy games are homogenized due to allowing subclasses. Since that is really what we have here. And saying WF is homogenized is as absurd as saying a Warrior with Berserker as subjob is the same as a Berserker with Warrior subjob in FFXIV.

[Vaml77]

There are more than 40 warframes and there are only a few usable skills. There are lousy or useless skills and they are in abundance...unfortunately.

[Silligoose]

29 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That results in the opposite of homogenization, since it adds options, options that also do other things and act differently to reach something similar. Homogenization would mean all options would be similar overall, or there only being one option that is universal. A frame sharing one thing with another doesnt mean homogenization.

This is where I stopped reading, because much like Kit you are creating a false narrative, attributing it to me falsely and then trying to debate this false narrative you've created. It is a waste of time.

[SneakyErvin]

23 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

This is where I stopped reading, because much like Kit you are creating a false narrative, attributing it to me falsely and then trying to debate this false narrative you've created. It is a waste of time.

It's not false. How are more options homogenization when the options can also alter two or more idential things into working differently from eachother?

The three bullet points I quoted from you are your words correct? Those make some wild claims regarding example that in your mind makes WF homogenized or on the way to becoming it. All those bullet points however show the opposite. Since they all grant several options to achieve something, but they also do so in far different ways, requiring other choices to be made to achieve that one specific things. 

Nekros 1 = Kuva Zarr, Laetum, Venka Prime, Larva Instead of Soul Punch. Unairu School.

Nekros 2 = Probo Cernos, Laetum, Venka Prime, Breach Surge instead of Soul Punch. Naramon School.

Nekros 3 = Kuva Zarr, Tenet Plinx, Venka Prime, Roar instead of Soul Punch. Madurai School.

Nekros 4 = Inc Tordid, Laetum, Fragor Prime, Radial Blind instead of Soul Punch, Vazarin School.

Nekros 5 = Inc Burston, Inc Furis, Fragor Prime, Radial Blind instead of Soul Punch. Zenurik School.

All 5 different Nekros versions. Ranging from ranged focused to melee, including finisher based builds all with different school and methods of gameplay in the end. 4 of which can group enemies in different ways, 1 not fousing on it.

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by SneakyErvin

[Silligoose]

44 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

It's not false. How are more options homogenization when the options can also alter two or more idential things into working differently from eachother?

The three bullet points I quoted from you are your words correct? Those make some wild claims regarding example that in your mind makes WF homogenized or on the way to becoming it. All those bullet points however show the opposite. Since they all grant several options to achieve something, but they also do so in far different ways, requiring other choices to be made to achieve that one specific things. 

Nekros 1 = Kuva Zarr, Laetum, Venka Prime, Larva Instead of Soul Punch. Unairu School.

Nekros 2 = Probo Cernos, Laetum, Venka Prime, Breach Surge instead of Soul Punch. Naramon School.

Nekros 3 = Kuva Zarr, Tenet Plinx, Venka Prime, Roar instead of Soul Punch. Madurai School.

Nekros 4 = Inc Tordid, Laetum, Fragor Prime, Radial Blind instead of Soul Punch, Vazarin School.

Nekros 5 = Inc Burston, Inc Furis, Fragor Prime, Radial Blind instead of Soul Punch. Zenurik School.

All 5 different Nekros versions. Ranging from ranged focused to melee, including finisher based builds all with different school and methods of gameplay in the end. 4 of which can group enemies in different ways, 1 not fousing on it.

On 2023-08-08 at 1:01 PM, Silligoose said:

As for variety: If there is a game with 20 different spells such as fire, ice, water, lightning, earth, wind etc, one could argue there is a lot of variety, but if they all do the same thing in basically the same way, then that variety isn't very impactful. Instead, it is rather shallow and interchangeable, rendering it rather meaningless. It is superficial.

To take it a step further: If there is a game with all sorts of character classes: Warrior, Healer, Bard, Paladin, Berserker, Sorcerer, Rogue and they have inherent strengths and weaknesses as one tends to get from these classes, the variety in classes leads to the experience in playing the same game, the same missions, being different with each class. Which class one chooses is impactful and the variety in class has meaning. Should the devs decide they want to give more variety in viable builds for each class and due to changes, we end up with a situation in which all classes can tank more than well enough, all can heal more than well enough, deal damage, debuff enemies, do melee damage, do ranged damage, do spell damage etc more than well enough, the increase in variety for each build came at the cost of variety in class being less impactful. The level of homogenization led to variety in class becoming rather superficial.

Choice in frame is less impactful on gameplay due to homogenization of frames, as a result of various options in the game.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

57 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Choice in frame is less impactful on gameplay due to homogenization of frames, as a result of various options in the game.

Can confirm.

You can slap Azure Shards and Gloom on virtually any frame and be nearly unkillable.

On the other hand, you sacrifice one ability slot to vastly improve survivability of a frame you possibly enjoy playing but it's too squishy for your liking, which is what I did with Volt.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Silligoose said:

Choice in frame is less impactful on gameplay due to homogenization of frames, as a result of various options in the game.

That isnt due to homogenization, that is due to the roster having over 50 frames to pick from, where things simply overlap at some point. And we as players can further diversify the roster and move further from what you call homogenization by the options we have. The parts that make a frame unique are still there and overlap to a far smaller extent.

Want a loot frame? You have 4 choices out of 50 in that case, only one with it innate to the kit.

Want an offensive team buffer? Same deal there, only a handful out of the 50+ do that, and to different degrees at that depending on what their kit actually benefits from in stats. Chroma for instance, while a team buffer, is a poor one in comparison to Rhino, since Chroma doesnt really benefit from range and his buffs do not stick to players innately. Then you have others not intended to be team buffers naturally and require augments for it etc.

Want a node defense frame? Same handful of choices there to protect objectives in a safe manner. All also working differently from eachother.

They all also appeal to different playstyles, meaning homogenization is even less of a thing, because a different playstyle means different gameplay. Which in the end means the choice is impactful on the gameplay.

14 minutes ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

On the other hand, you sacrifice one ability slot to vastly improve survivability of a frame you possibly enjoy playing but it's too squishy for your liking, which is what I did with Volt.

But why though when he already has a skill that allows you to actively "block" nearly all damage and another that constantly replenishes his shields, meaning no health damage is taken?

I also gotta ask, how does slapping Azure shards and gloom on all frames make them play the same? They share at that point 1 thing, their main approach towards survivability. Or do you not use the rest of their kit? I mean if I slap Gloom on say Styanax for some reason I'd still bombard the enemy with my spears for killing and make sure shields and energy are maintained through #3. If I slap it on Banshee I'd still make sure to sonar everything as needed and keep silence up while using guns 99.99% of the time to kill.

And picking between Styanax and Banshee in that case would be picking between two vastly different playstyles and gameplay approaches towards combat, even if they'd share the same skill and shard setup.

Edited August 9, 2023 by SneakyErvin