I am so disappointed with all the nerfed Helminth abilities.

[Traumtulpe]

In a world where Gloom (permanent 95% slow and life steal) and Nourish (infinite energy, Viral damage buff, retaliation) exist, I can't understand why DE is pre-nerfing all these innocuous Helminth abilities - and why, for some inexplicable reason, buffing completely trash abilities doesn't ever happen. It's always just nerf, ensuring that half the abilities aren't even options.

Decoy? That ability is so trash I won't even bother going into detail.

Tempest Barrage? Did anyone ever use this, even as a joke?

Fractured Blast, gimme that sweet 10% chance to get an energy orb (25 energy) for the cost of... 25 energy? Good thing you nerfed this, otherwise the sheer flood of orbs would destroy Warframe.

Marked for Death, remember when this was a thing? When it was fun? Before you killed it dead?

Defy? Good thing you nerfed this, otherwise I might have accidentally used it sometime! Wouldn't have been good anyway.

Banish? Oh yeah, let me use this CC that also CCs myself instead of this other CC that still lets me attack the enemies. Not.

Then I finally gave Kullervo a try, of course his Helminth is also nerfed by 50% - which is kinda understandable, a 200% flat crit buff is kinda nuts. But a 12.5m teleport on a 1 second cooldown? Now thats just lame.

The Helminth was such a great promise: "Put another Warframe's ability over one of the real crappy ones that you know we're never going to rework!" It turned into: "We made a huge mistake with Gloom and Nourish, so now we're going to make sure no new ability is ever going to be interesting again! But feel free to put Decoy on Inaros lol."

[Silligoose]

DE struggles when it comes to balance.

I also feel the rampant homogenization of frames has been unhealthy for the game and Helminth contributed to that greatly.

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

I will say, I unironically love decoy on limbo, as you can banish the decoy and it just works. 
 

But I agree with the sentiment. I wish more helminth abilities got buffs at the very least. Speaking of decoy, Ive always thought it should mimic your abilities you cast, think like wisp willowisp 

[Traumtulpe]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

I will say, I unironically love decoy on limbo, as you can banish the decoy and it just works.

I use Molt on Limbo (or rather I did, don't play Limbo anymore these days). Because Decoy can actually die in the delay between casting it and banishing it (and you can place Molt in the air, making it an easy target).

But regardless, Limbo is a meme frame, and banishing a Decoy / Molt / Mind Controlled enemy is just doubling down on that.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[Pakaku]

Helminth should always have been weak, and the only reason Gloom and Nourish stand out for you is because they really are just that unbalanced.

[Traumtulpe]

27 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I also feel the rampant homogenization of frames has been unhealthy for the game and Helminth contributed to that greatly.

I think you're wrong about that in theory, but right in practice. What I mean is, yeah, everyone and their mom is putting Gloom / Nourish / any of the damage buffs on their warframe, but that's mostly just because so many abilities suck.

If all the Helminth abilities were useful there'd be a lot more variety.

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, Pakaku said:

Helminth should always have been weak, and the only reason Gloom and Nourish stand out for you is because they really are just that unbalanced.

Yeah they obviously are unbalanced. 95% permanent slow is ridiculous, plus life steal with abilities on top? That's just silly. Viral damage on weapons (without use of an augment!) is already miles ahead of many other helminths, but DE slapped +500% energy gain on top to make people play Grendel. Usage stats > balance in this game.

But Helminth abilities should not be weak. It's just one ability, let us have at least a tiny little bit of fun in this game. Many warframes have abilities you'll never use, abilities that don't even do anything without an augment, and you can have 4 abilities at most.

Having only 4 abilities is already really shallow what gameplay and tactical depth concerns, we really don't need frames with 1-4 abilities that are too crappy to use on top of that.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

Just now, Pakaku said:

Helminth should always have been weak, and the only reason Gloom and Nourish stand out for you is because they really are just that unbalanced.

It's a long standing problem with DE. If they would start balancing the old content then we wouldn't have a handful of best abilities but instead we would have so many amazing abilities we wouldn't know what to infuse first.

As it is, it's Gloom, Nourish, Roar, Tharros Strike, Xata's Whisper everywhere.

There's a lot of decent abilities, heck, maybe it's a majority of them, but then there's junk like Desiccation, Ice Wave, Tempest Barrage, Pull, and more.

[MaxTunnerX]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

In a world where Gloom (permanent 95% slow and life steal) and Nourish (infinite energy, Viral damage buff, retaliation) exist, I can't understand why DE is pre-nerfing all these innocuous Helminth abilities - and why, for some inexplicable reason, buffing completely trash abilities doesn't ever happen. It's always just nerf, ensuring that half the abilities aren't even options.

Decoy? That ability is so trash I won't even bother going into detail.

Tempest Barrage? Did anyone ever use this, even as a joke?

Fractured Blast, gimme that sweet 10% chance to get an energy orb (25 energy) for the cost of... 25 energy? Good thing you nerfed this, otherwise the sheer flood of orbs would destroy Warframe.

Marked for Death, remember when this was a thing? When it was fun? Before you killed it dead?

Defy? Good thing you nerfed this, otherwise I might have accidentally used it sometime! Wouldn't have been good anyway.

Banish? Oh yeah, let me use this CC that also CCs myself instead of this other CC that still lets me attack the enemies. Not.

Then I finally gave Kullervo a try, of course his Helminth is also nerfed by 50% - which is kinda understandable, a 200% flat crit buff is kinda nuts. But a 12.5m teleport on a 1 second cooldown? Now thats just lame.

The Helminth was such a great promise: "Put another Warframe's ability over one of the real crappy ones that you know we're never going to rework!" It turned into: "We made a huge mistake with Gloom and Nourish, so now we're going to make sure no new ability is ever going to be interesting again! But feel free to put Decoy on Inaros lol."

Helminth system is awesome, but this thing is absurd. Its the devs that decide what abilities the helminth gives. And they chose to give roar via helminth only to nerf it so its basically not even roar anymore, just a mini roar. I think all helminthable abilitites should work the same as the original versions, and if its balance breaking or whatever (which none of them are), put a different ability to the helmith system rather than nerf those that cannot work otherwise.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

 

Tempest Barrage? Did anyone ever use this, even as a joke?

I used this pre eximus update. It was pretty nice CC that is not braindead. Plus you have 2nd longer version.

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Fractured Blast, gimme that sweet 10% chance to get an energy orb (25 energy) for the cost of... 25 energy? Good thing you nerfed this, otherwise the sheer flood of orbs would destroy Warframe.

They went waaaay overboard with this one. You can make it work but it's much easier to do other stuff.

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

 

Then I finally gave Kullervo a try, of course his Helminth is also nerfed by 50% - which is kinda understandable, a 200% flat crit buff is kinda nuts. But a 12.5m teleport on a 1 second cooldown? Now thats just lame.

Fufu. Kullervo is pretty good (when it teleports) whenver it's on base or other frames.

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

 

The Helminth was such a great promise: "Put another Warframe's ability over one of the real crappy ones that you know we're never going to rework!" It turned into: "We made a huge mistake with Gloom and Nourish, so now we're going to make sure no new ability is ever going to be interesting again! But feel free to put Decoy on Inaros lol."

25 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

54 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I also feel the rampant homogenization of frames has been unhealthy for the game and Helminth contributed to that greatly.

I think you're wrong about that in theory, but right in practice. What I mean is, yeah, everyone and their mom is putting Gloom / Nourish / any of the damage buffs on their warframe, but that's mostly just because so many abilities suck.

If all the Helminth abilities were useful there'd be a lot more variety.

Sadly helminth were turned into "bad territory" after release with bunch of restrictions. We ended with copy paste abilities.

25 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

Helminth should always have been weak

Sooooo.... what's the point of those abilities?

21 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

27 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

Helminth should always have been weak, and the only reason Gloom and Nourish stand out for you is because they really are just that unbalanced.

Yeah they obviously are unbalanced. 95% permanent slow

You are forgetting few things:

- not working on Eximus - which can be bigger part in some part of game

- drains on enemy (20 or 10 cap) - so if you don't kill fast enough you get pretty big energy drain

 

[Harutomata]

I always had the opinion that Nourish should have only kept the damage bonus and self heal when subsumed, like how it was before the Grendel rework. Since everyone can have the energy and viral proc part, it makes the utility Grendel can provide cheaper since any warframe can do it. It's like if Trinity's Blessing was her Helminth ability and it worked for other warframes exactly the same way. Or for Frost his Snow Globe. The list goes on, it's not a good look for the game's balance overall, and especially not a good look for Grendel.
Helminth providing Nourish with no downsides takes away from Grendel's value and identity. But part of the reason why I feel this way about it might be because I like to play Grendel from time to time.
Others can provide the same buff you can and not just identical but possibly with better stats? DE definitely didn't try to see it from that perspective.
If you think about it, the ability is even better subsumed than on Grendel, because the subsumed version doesn't need you to cast Feast before Nourish.
I know it doesn't heal now if it's subsumed but what does that matter with how many ways you have to heal or when you might play a frame that doesn't even need healing?
(I still think Nourish should heal others too and not just Grendel though.)

I also agree with you about many abilities getting unnecessarily nerfed in comparison.

[(XBOX)RaeOvSunshyn]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Tempest Barrage? Did anyone ever use this, even as a joke?

Fractured Blast, gimme that sweet 10% chance to get an energy orb (25 energy) for the cost of... 25 energy? Good thing you nerfed this, otherwise the sheer flood of orbs would destroy Warframe.

I put Tempest Barrage on Nova -- originally not as a joke but it wound up amusing me so it's still on her.

Fractured Blast is on... hmm... probably half a dozen of my frames. It's been fabulous.

My Saryn -- which I barely use -- is, I believe, the only frame I have Gloom on and Grendel -- which I never use -- is it for Nourish.

Someone in here mentioned Pull as if it's a waste but it works great for Baruuk and Limbo.

I'm STILL surprised nobody else seems to have discovered Sickening Pulse Voruna.

So, although I see the point that's being made about Helminth, I think there's a lot of variables to abilities being good or not. I definitely agree the nerfs, regardless if they actually do make much difference, is shady of DE since "hey, you're allowed to put 1/4 of an ability on another frame" was never how they portrayed it.

[(PSN)Unstar]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

It turned into: "We made a huge mistake with Gloom and Nourish, so now we're going to make sure no new ability is ever going to be interesting again! But feel free to put Decoy on Inaros lol."

History suggests that DE is happy to nerf when they see a problem.  The fact that Gloom remains as it is implies that DE doesn't see it as a problem or a mistake.

And this last part is just my own armchair guess, but I'd hazard that Helminth Gloom correlates with a wider variety of frame usage, as it's an effective bandaid for a lot of issues players can have.

[Traumtulpe]

17 minutes ago, (XBOX)RaeOvSunshyn said:

"hey, you're allowed to put 1/4 of an ability on another frame" was never how they portrayed it.

Exactly!

26 minutes ago, quxier said:

Kullervo is pretty good (when it teleports) whenver it's on base or other frames.

The teleport part? Nah, I tried it, it's terrible. The one second cooldown kills it. And the 12.5m range, obviously; That's literally melee range. You're faster bullet jumping unless you have max range.

[PollexMessier]

Decoy's health needs to function like warding Halo where it's invunerable for a few seconds and then scales to the damage it's taken in that time. Or just not take damage at all and function only on it's time limit. It just doesn't do anything at all otherwise and... Resonator exists so?????

Defy is such a stupid one to be nerfed the way it is. It's not a great damage reduction, or cc, or damage ability. It's kindof a jack of all trades ability that isn't even really effective at any of them. There are a few frames it's enticing to have on like Styanax who can stack it's agro priority with rally point and make it's damage actually functional on a squad because it's now impossible for enemies to ignore him. But I'd rather have gloom or pillage on him just for some much needed survivability since the armor buff is inconsequential. And with it nerfed it's even less of an option than it already was.

I don't feel like Eclipse deserved to be nerfed just cus it's impossible to intentionally get the buff you want from it anyways. If eclipse was a toggle buff instead of being light dependent then I would understand. Or if the ability drew lines in your vision that marked the light boundaries between where the effect changes and there was a way more obvious indication of which one you currently have. And the light level didn't effect the effectiveness of the buff.... I also heard your graphics setting affect the ability which if that's true.... wtf DE fix this one.

Banish should never have been a helminth ability. Granted it's the only ability limbo has that any other frame could use besides his 4 which, all 4s are banned from helinth. But the only reason you take this ability is if you wanna piss off other players by rifting enemies. They probably should've just reworked rift surge into an ability other frames could use cus who even uses rift surge. It's too unpredictable of an ability to justify being cast ever. Have it be something like "Buffs the duration of status effects on surged enemies (scaled off power strength, while the ability effect's duration itself is scaled off duration), and suspends the status timer of enemies affected by stasis entirely" I could see some frames getting a lot of use out of that, has a function that makes it better on limbo specifically so they don't have to change it's stats for helminth, and it kindof replaces a function of stasis that is apparently not part of it anymore where it use to freeze the status timer on enemies.

[(XBOX)RaeOvSunshyn]

28 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Exactly!

The teleport part? Nah, I tried it, it's terrible. The one second cooldown kills it. And the 12.5m range, obviously; That's literally melee range. You're faster bullet jumping unless you have max range.

You know who this works super well on? Ivara. It doesn't break her invisibility like bullet jumping does and it's much smoother than using zip lines.

[trst]

There's over 50 Frames in the game and they won't allow 4th and "signature" abilities into the system. So it's not only reasonable but entirely expected for there to be some niche abilities in the system. It'd also be absurd to buff an ability for Helminth if the ability is just fine on the base frame as otherwise you'd just be giving a better version of their ability to other frames.

But also just because you don't see the potential value in an ability over something as meta as Gloom or Nourish doesn't mean they lack value.

Decoy has synergies with other things like Banish which makes it a far stronger distraction. Tempest Barrage is a very strong CC ability for those who still value such effects. Fractured Blast is a base 10% energy orb drop on all enemies within a base range of 14 meters. Marked for Death is still a room clearing Nuke when used properly. Defy is over 50% DR on even the squishiest frames. Banish is a massively broken ability when used correctly. And who cares about Wrathful Advance's teleport when it's crit chance even applies to abilities that can crit.

Lacking creativity and/or being a meta chaser is a player issue, not a Helminth issue.

[Tiltskillet]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

History suggests that DE is happy to nerf when they see a problem. 

I don't think history suggests this.  There are lots of examples of DE ignoring problems or, perhaps more clearly, punting on solutions for months and years.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

4 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

In a world where Gloom (permanent 95% slow and life steal) and Nourish (infinite energy, Viral damage buff, retaliation) exist, I can't understand why DE is pre-nerfing all these innocuous Helminth abilities - and why, for some inexplicable reason, buffing completely trash abilities doesn't ever happen. It's always just nerf, ensuring that half the abilities aren't even options.

Decoy? That ability is so trash I won't even bother going into detail.

Tempest Barrage? Did anyone ever use this, even as a joke?

Fractured Blast, gimme that sweet 10% chance to get an energy orb (25 energy) for the cost of... 25 energy? Good thing you nerfed this, otherwise the sheer flood of orbs would destroy Warframe.

Marked for Death, remember when this was a thing? When it was fun? Before you killed it dead?

Defy? Good thing you nerfed this, otherwise I might have accidentally used it sometime! Wouldn't have been good anyway.

Banish? Oh yeah, let me use this CC that also CCs myself instead of this other CC that still lets me attack the enemies. Not.

Then I finally gave Kullervo a try, of course his Helminth is also nerfed by 50% - which is kinda understandable, a 200% flat crit buff is kinda nuts. But a 12.5m teleport on a 1 second cooldown? Now thats just lame.

The Helminth was such a great promise: "Put another Warframe's ability over one of the real crappy ones that you know we're never going to rework!" It turned into: "We made a huge mistake with Gloom and Nourish, so now we're going to make sure no new ability is ever going to be interesting again! But feel free to put Decoy on Inaros lol."

There are some abilities that wouldnt be god awful sith even just a few minor tweaks. 

But yeah. Im afraid if anything they'll just dumpster some of the "good" abilities, like pillage, roar, gloom, rather than look st the growing list of ass ones. 

 

 

[rodrigerzZ]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Silligoose:

DE struggles when it comes to balance.

I also feel the rampant homogenization of frames has been unhealthy for the game and Helminth contributed to that greatly.

there was never a balance...
they go the same way as garbage companies who want to milk money with minimal effort.

so everything playable will be ruined. and then players switch to other playable stuff and waste their time/resources/money etc.  so the main thing is to do nothing and keep the players busy somehow...
the only thing that doesn't exist here are resets every few months. So a waste of time multiplied by 1000.

[Voltage]

4 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I also feel the rampant homogenization of frames has been unhealthy for the game and Helminth contributed to that greatly.

Yep. I've, been sharing this concern since Helminth was showcased. Undermining the kit identity Warframes offer to a mission leads to homogenization in a way that feels even worse than the homogenization to weapons that we've also been seeing over time.

[KitMeHarder]

9 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I also feel the rampant homogenization of frames has been unhealthy for the game and Helminth contributed to that greatly.

I completely disagree, frames largely play completely differently from one another. 

And adding a self-supporting ability like Eclipse via helminth, has little to effect on "homogenization", nor on how a frame is ultimately played (i.e. my Hildryn plays the same with or without it). Once they start adding abilities like Collective Curse, Landslide, Blaze Artillery, etc... we'll talk. And off the top of my head, Rhino is only frame that has lost some of his identity thanks to Helminth. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by KitMeHarder

[quxier]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)RaeOvSunshyn said:

6 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

Exactly!

The teleport part? Nah, I tried it, it's terrible. The one second cooldown kills it. And the 12.5m range, obviously; That's literally melee range. You're faster bullet jumping unless you have max range.

You know who this works super well on? Ivara. It doesn't break her invisibility like bullet jumping does and it's much smoother than using zip lines.

Sadly because of bugs (target obstructed or something) it's not great on her.

6 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

7 hours ago, quxier said:

Kullervo is pretty good (when it teleports) whenver it's on base or other frames.

The teleport part? Nah, I tried it, it's terrible. The one second cooldown kills it. And the 12.5m range, obviously; That's literally melee range. You're faster bullet jumping unless you have max range.

It depends on usage. With Hydroid/Undertow it triggers "cannot teleport" bug lot of time. With Doors and some places as well. On other hand, if you have place to teleport and you don't want to spam it then it's "pretty good". Far from perfect but not terrible (aka not usable). Plus you have crit buff.

3 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

8 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I also feel the rampant homogenization of frames has been unhealthy for the game and Helminth contributed to that greatly.

I completely disagree, frames largely play completely differently from one another. 

Base sevagoth with augment: Slowness + crit buff.

Xaku: damage buff

Yeah.... completly different /sarcasm

With banning of vialable gameplay (Xaku cannot disarm enemies, STyanax cannot cast during 4th etc) and lack of synergies lot of frames plays very similarly.

[KitMeHarder]

10 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

"We made a huge mistake with Gloom and Nourish, so now we're going to make sure no new ability is ever going to be interesting again!

Nourish was mid for a long time, and it was only buffed after they had already started preemptively nerfing newer frame's helminth (Voruna and Grendel's rework were the same patch). (And just because the base ability was buffed, doesn't mean the helminth was going to follow suit. Case-in-point, old subsumed Nourish.)

So this point doesn't really hold up.

10 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

The Helminth was such a great promise: "Put another Warframe's ability over one of the real crappy ones that you know we're never going to rework!" It turned into: "We made a huge mistake with Gloom and Nourish, so now we're going to make sure no new ability is ever going to be interesting again! But feel free to put Decoy on Inaros lol."

I also like how it took all of 3 helminth abilities for you to make this (hyperbolic) statement. Not to mention the multiple non-nerfed abilities added after Gloom, one of which is Tharros Strike. And one of the nerfed ones is the reworked Nourish, which you're already decrying.

Ultimately though, I agree, the bulk of helminth abilities shouldn't have diminished values.

Edited August 8, 2023 by KitMeHarder

[0_The_F00l]

i think its less of a helminth issue and more that the ability itself is rather weak or that the few good ones are far too good , just like everything else in the game including frames, weapons , companions and mods.

I do totally blame DE for the poor balance that brings us to such a conclusion where of the more than 60+ abilities there are about 5 that are too good to be true , a few that are situational and some which are rarely worth the cost.

you can definitely make them fun , but they will not be more effective than the top 5.

 

Gloom and Nourish are definitely outliers - i am very surprised its not nerfed yet , but i guess its cause not many players actually got grendel and sevagoth for their "ease of acquisition".