Gunblades need their stances looked at.

Binket_ · August 17, 2023

TLDR on this?
Moves too much in the stances, both High Noon and Bullet Dance.
Focus on strictly projectiles just makes is clunky gun.
People spam Heavy Attacks because it's the only one stable enough to use.

Solution? Better handling of the combos.

Otherwise, for the details?
All current Gunblades are as follows:

Sarpa, which fires 5 pellets with each "shot".
Redeemer (Prime), which fires a shotgun blast of 10 pellets.
Vastilok, which fires a shotgun blast of 9 pellets.
Stopha, which fires an energy wave. Cannot headshot.

All but Stropha are hitscan.
All of them will wobble on their attacks.

Let me preface this by saying I'm a PC player who uses Mouse and Keyboard.
My aim- as a result- tends to be a lot more precise given the accuracy of the mouse.
That's just how it works.

Problem 1: It feels very awkward to aim a Gunblade when it's constantly throwing me in random directions.

Look at Bullet Dance's "Samba Slash" combo for instance. _{(Wiki page is linked at the end of the post.)}
It does three shots, two of which end up moving you backwards diagonally.
- This sounds good on paper until you actually try it in combat, where it will almost always throw you into another enemy, wall or off a cliff.
- Provided you're not in a perfectly flat and open room, which is a rarity even if it is not unheard of to be fair.
Or take Bullet Dance's "Lead Tango" and High Noon's "Desperado's Zeal" combos which are functionally identical.
Only difference being the last lingering slash on the former's combo and varying modifiers from both.
- Both however require you to be a great distance away, which isn't helpful given that many Gunblades suffer great amounts of falloff.
- Even if you satisfy this condition, you always have the chance to zip right past the enemy. Completely missing the shot to begin with.
Even Bullet Dance's "Magnum Mambo" and "Automatic Rhumba" along with High Noon's "Vagabond Blitz" and "Final Showdown".
These attacks have a small window where the Warframe pivots itself around, causing the reticle to shift just enough to make this weapon inaccurate.
- It is for the same reason the new "Edun" Polearm is largely mocked.
- Edun's Heavy Attack would be useful if it stopped moving your camera so jarringly.

I was hoping the acknowledgement of this in the latest hotfix would address such.
Sadly, no... in fact, I find it even harder to aim it properly now since the game often forces you to miss said shots.

Which leads me to the second problem...

Problem 2: Both stances use projectiles on all their attacks.

Well, that's not entirely correct.
There's a reason I say it as such however.

High Noon's "Tomahawk Double Tap" is the combo that does not fire a single shot.
This is- of course- excluding movement related attacks since they're not affected by either stance being slotted on.

The whole point of a Gunblade is to combine the ranged possibilities of a gun... onto a blade used for Melee-Range combat.
It is a more fiction-related version of the real-life Bayonet Rifles. Which is a similar concept, but creating a rudimentary polearm instead.

Unfortunately, in a game like Warframe where...

Swapping weapons is borderline instant.
Ammo is dropped by all sorts of enemies and is universally applicable for the most part.
Most players don't really swap their weapons to begin with.
Many Warframes can just sit safely in a corner while their abilities do the work. (Which I think Is incredibly stupid to even let happen, but one thing at a time.)

It begs the question of "why would I use a Gunblade?"

I can swap to my Dual Toxocyst and pick off targets at range while using Venka Prime to lacerate anything that dares approach with far more ease.
Infinite Ammo is nice, yes... but it's a concern considering a variety of "battery" weapons exist. Including the infamous Bubonico and Shedu.
Both of which are used in very shady farms that border on RMT exploitation.
^{(Which IS a concern, especially to players who get accidentally caught in the crossfire by just-so-happening to obtain "illegal plat" when they are simply trading. Innocent players shouldn't have to worry about that.)}
If nobody swaps their weapons, it shouldn't be a concern of "Gunblades suddenly becoming too all-consuming". You've already done that multiple times.
Ignis Wraith is still- to this day- a very braindead weapon that shows this perfectly.
If many players choose to NOT play your game, there's nothing you can do to entice those players. Let the ones who actively engage have weapons to enjoy.

The easiest solution to this part is simply letting ONLY THE BLOCK COMBOS do projectiles. (Or vice-versa. The point is to seperate them into "modes" of sorts.)
This allows players who are actively using the gun to hit targets that are closer-by while using the projectiles as they see fit.
Heavy Attacks can stay as they are, but the possibility of opening the Gunblade to using Melee hits properly allows the weapon to be far more enjoyable outside of spamming one button.

While fixing up stances would benefit a LOT of Melee weapons? Gunblade are by-far the biggest example of such benefits.

What we're looking for with this is simply to bring it closer in line with Corufell.
As Corufell stands? It's not that great in terms of physically attacking.
Galeforce Dawn has a load more issues involving how clunky it is.

However, it does have the chance to physically attack the enemies while swapping it's Heavy Attack to a projectile very fluidly.
That is the part we want.

Links to the respective stances:
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Bullet_Dance
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/High_Noon

As a bonus? Here's a video for some "inspiration": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09T8U91JWgU
I once took a break from Warframe to play a game called PSO2. (Phantasy Star Online 2)
Sadly, PSO2's service was... "so poorly handled I was almost convinced to call Child Protective Services on it with how abused it was" to put it nicely.
But to be blunt? I had a LOT of fun with it's "Luster" class.
High pace, high power, VERY fun to watch and even more fun to play.
A lot of things to upkeep on it's kit with equal power to measure.
Where SEGA blunders, you (DE) could maybe take some notes on what they did right.

I won't say "DE needs to be like this!" because.... no, the two games and their studios are very different.
... but they do share aspects that could be useful to look at! So yeah, additional food for thought.

If ya got any questions? Say 'em.
After all, I ain't psychic!

Fred_Avant_2019 · August 19, 2023

Well, I think the point of those stances' normal attacks is to have both standard melee and gunplay mixed in together. The issue is that it simply doesn't work : if you want the bullets to connect, you're gonna need to aim. But you're at melee range. So aiming when you move 88 miles an hour is gonna prove difficult, even more so if you're highly invested in attack speed.

OR you could just be using a standard melee, using Primed Reach, spam your E without much thought nor any aim, your eyes glued to your minimap for enemy radar. Only gunblades and glaives will struggle with that. I think these two weapon types suffer alot from the lack of synergy that comes with modding for melee range and their ability to shoot a projectile/be thrown.

If the stances were made a little less clunky and reach/primed reach affected fall-off and radial damage radius, then those weapons would feel a lot less like they're only ever useful with their shotgun/heavy throw mechanics.

Binket_ · August 19, 2023

14 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Well, I think the point of those stances' normal attacks is to have both standard melee and gunplay mixed in together.

"Mixed" doesn't always have to imply using both at the same time.
Just having the option to use Melee as it's intended or the shot functionality as the situation deems fit is the key here.

The "original intent" isn't working as nicely as we liked.
If we were to go with "original intent", this game would still have a stamina bar and we'd still die to so much as a toothpick dropping on the ground.

14 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

The issue is that it simply doesn't work : if you want the bullets to connect, you're gonna need to aim. But you're at melee range. So aiming when you move 88 miles an hour is gonna prove difficult, even more so if you're highly invested in attack speed.

... which is precisely why hard-mixing the two together doesn't work. As I said very evidently here.
Making one half of the stance use Melee attacks and the other half using the typical projectiles we see today fixes that dramatically.

Because than you can use it as it's name. A gun... with a blade on it.

Bayonet Rifles didn't need a knife on the end if you treat it like a sniper.
They were used because it was simply just faster to wield it like a polearm when the enemy was rapidly approaching.

Of course aiming at 88 miles an hour is gonna be difficult, especially when the sightlines are about as rickety as a sailboat in a typhoon.
Reducing that clutter makes it easier to wield.

14 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

OR you could just be using a standard melee, using Primed Reach, spam your E without much thought nor any aim, your eyes glued to your minimap for enemy radar.

Do you hate fun? Do you not understand basic gameplay?
Did you even read this post? Are you a bot? You're a bot, aren't you?

Well, whatever. I'll humor the audacity.

Yeah, anyone can slot on "big stat" and press "barbarism" to win.
But at that point, why even have Melee? Why even have guns?
Why not just press a single button, realize that there's nothing fun about that, Alt-Tab out...
... and go uninstall the travesty you want this game to become.
If I had to play a game where I pressed a single button only to watch it play itself? I'd rather watch grass grow in quarter speed.

You wanna know why people get bored of this game?
It's stagnant. From the stats we heard? Most players don't even get past the Second Dream.
The game is- in terms of most- incredibly boring.

I don't blame them either, when a kit like Revenant's exists? Why bother? All the challenge is suckled out.
The only players left that are currently playing are:

Extreme brutes who just want to mash things into oblivion like a feral cryptid.
- Where you could put a gore-themed cookie clicker in front of them and they'll be entertained the same way.
- They don't care for puzzles, combat-- anything. They're just in enough denial to blockade the thought of how pathetic that is.
People who find fun in how many weapon options we have.
- They realize the missions, enemies, stories... and realistically most prospects of the game are pretty boring.
- However, the amount of variety of intrigue in the way they can wield the weapons is enough to tie them over.
- It's the creativity and usage OF said weapons that matter, not the sheer brutality of it.

... and let's be real here, if we're catering to the former? It's simply because DE can milk more money out of them.
BECAUSE they're so stupid, they'll be willing to shell out 80 something USD for a brand new killstick, only because it has a shiny butt on it... or it's "meta" strictly because it's popular for reasons it never earned.

You can do better than just mindlessly spam things.
If you want that? Go use Xaku you deranged thing.
... but just ultimately keep it yourself.

14 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Only gunblades and glaives will struggle with that. I think these two weapon types suffer alot from the lack of synergy that comes with modding for melee range and their ability to shoot a projectile/be thrown.

If the stances were made a little less clunky and reach/primed reach affected fall-off and radial damage radius, then those weapons would feel a lot less like they're only ever useful with their shotgun/heavy throw mechanics.

Glaives (as a category) don't have falloff on their throws. At all.
- It's for the EXACT REASON why they're so popular.
- High damage with no falloff.
- Often a forced proc, one of which is powerful.
- Ones like Pathocyst, Halikar and Orvius also have specialized gimmicks to them.
Glaives suffer in the stances department because they're often better thrown.
- They can be wielded in tandem with a secondary, allowing you to toss the Melee and use you gun along with it.
- If anything? A change to encourage better Glaive use would simply be to make them interact with certain Secondaries.
  - ... but that's not the topic today.
Gunblades aren't designed to be long-range weapons. You have Rifles for that.
- Their "shots" are designed to hit targets just out of reach. Also to make use of any effects the Gun part may have.
- If you rely too much on their "shot" portion, you're better off just making that an actual gun.
- Likewise, if you remove the projectiles entirely? It's just a Melee.
- Falloff is there so you still have a use for guns, but you don't have to fully rely on them.

Stances on both are relatively negligible, but for different reasons.
Gunblades benefit from this without changing too much of what they are.

The goal isn't to change their stats wildly, nor is it to change their identity... it's not even to make it "better than [XYZ]"
It's just to the depth of wielding one much more vast. To make it more fun to use without actually changing too much on it.

PollexMessier · August 19, 2023

Gunblades should use the tactical combo (hold block/aim+attack) for actually firing. Makes absolute sense and allows you to make the decision on if you wanna chain the gunfire into your mele combo or not and exactly how you want to do that.

quxier · August 20, 2023

On 2023-08-17 at 2:10 PM, Binket_ said:

All of them will wobble on their attacks.

What do you mean wobble?

I use mainly Gun part, hence I will talk only about Bullet dance combos from here.

On 2023-08-17 at 2:10 PM, Binket_ said:

Problem 1: It feels very awkward to aim a Gunblade when it's constantly throwing me in random directions.

Look at Bullet Dance's "Samba Slash" combo for instance. _{(Wiki page is linked at the end of the post.)}
It does three shots, two of which end up moving you backwards diagonally.
This sounds good on paper until you actually try it in combat, where it will almost always throw you into another enemy, wall or off a cliff.

Provided you're not in a perfectly flat and open room, which is a rarity even if it is not unheard of to be fair.

I get it that aiming is important but not everything has to be 100% where you aim. I mean, sure, first shoot of this combo NOT hitting is horrible but rest of combo is fine. It moves you automatically which helps avoiding attacks. Hitting group of enemies or Nully(ies) are nice too.

I have not fallen to the pit. I've just used not 100% mindlessly. Simple as this.

Not every combo should be used in all situations. Bullet dance at least has all combos useful in some situations (if only 2 combos: standing & moving where at least swapped). Lots of weapons has only usable ~1/2 of combos.

On 2023-08-17 at 2:10 PM, Binket_ said:

Or take Bullet Dance's "Lead Tango"
Only difference being the last lingering slash on the former's combo and varying modifiers from both.

Both however require you to be a great distance away, which isn't helpful given that many Gunblades suffer great amounts of falloff.

Even if you satisfy this condition, you always have the chance to zip right past the enemy. Completely missing the shot to begin with.

That's the point of Block+move combo. They are gap closers. Some throw your frame instantly (like this), some do ranged attack first (Tonfa family).

On 2023-08-17 at 2:10 PM, Binket_ said:

Even Bullet Dance's "Magnum Mambo" and "Automatic Rhumba"
These attacks have a small window where the Warframe pivots itself around, causing the reticle to shift just enough to make this weapon inaccurate.

It is for the same reason the new "Edun" Polearm is largely mocked.

Edun's Heavy Attack would be useful if it stopped moving your camera so jarringly.

First, moving combo (Magnum combo) and standing combo (Automatic rumba) should be at least swapped (little bit oftopic).

Current moving combo (Magnum combo) slash around you so it's harder to aim, especially while moving.

On other hand, standing combo is precise. I'm not sure where you get it inaccurate.

On 2023-08-17 at 2:10 PM, Binket_ said:

The whole point of a Gunblade is to combine the ranged possibilities of a gun... onto a blade used for Melee-Range combat.
It is a more fiction-related version of the real-life Bayonet Rifles. Which is a similar concept, but creating a rudimentary polearm instead.

If we had better melee system then yes. However with current system I would preferer better distinction between all ranged Bullet dance and close combat High noon.

On 2023-08-17 at 2:10 PM, Binket_ said:

It begs the question of "why would I use a Gunblade?"

I can swap to my Dual Toxocyst and pick off targets at range while using Venka Prime to lacerate anything that dares approach with far more ease.

Infinite Ammo is nice, yes... but it's a concern considering a variety of "battery" weapons exist. Including the infamous Bubonico and Shedu.
Both of which are used in very shady farms that border on RMT exploitation.
^{(Which IS a concern, especially to players who get accidentally caught in the crossfire by just-so-happening to obtain "illegal plat" when they are simply trading. Innocent players shouldn't have to worry about that.)}

If nobody swaps their weapons, it shouldn't be a concern of "Gunblades suddenly becoming too all-consuming". You've already done that multiple times.
Ignis Wraith is still- to this day- a very braindead weapon that shows this perfectly.

If many players choose to NOT play your game, there's nothing you can do to entice those players. Let the ones who actively engage have weapons to enjoy.

The easiest solution to this part is simply letting ONLY THE BLOCK COMBOS do projectiles. (Or vice-versa. The point is to seperate them into "modes" of sorts.)
This allows players who are actively using the gun to hit targets that are closer-by while using the projectiles as they see fit.
Heavy Attacks can stay as they are, but the possibility of opening the Gunblade to using Melee hits properly allows the weapon to be far more enjoyable outside of spamming one button.

While fixing up stances would benefit a LOT of Melee weapons? Gunblade are by-far the biggest example of such benefits.

What we're looking for with this is simply to bring it closer in line with Corufell.
As Corufell stands? It's not that great in terms of physically attacking.
Galeforce Dawn has a load more issues involving how clunky it is.

However, it does have the chance to physically attack the enemies while swapping it's Heavy Attack to a projectile very fluidly.
That is the part we want.

Links to the respective stances:
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Bullet_Dance
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/High_Noon

So, you are going to nerf all stances to have it be less clunky instead of... you know... fixing them? This is HORRIBLE suggestion. Why? You want 1 attack to be projectile. You have dozen of such weapons already. No need to create yet another one. Gunblades are being unique and they should stay that way.

And "this solution turn off game by melting enemy" is problem, nerfing melee won't fix that.

17 hours ago, Binket_ said:

Gunblades aren't designed to be long-range weapons. You have Rifles for that.
Their "shots" are designed to hit targets just out of reach. Also to make use of any effects the Gun part may have.

If you rely too much on their "shot" portion, you're better off just making that an actual gun.

Likewise, if you remove the projectiles entirely? It's just a Melee.

Falloff is there so you still have a use for guns, but you don't have to fully rely on them.

Gunblades aren't only in categories of "melee range" and "long range gun". There are gunblades in between. Stropha has wide but short range. Sarpa is slim but has longer range. Redemeer makes it even more. We don't have anything very long range gunblades

17 hours ago, Binket_ said:

To make it more fun to use without actually changing too much on it.

You change 75% of stance and call it "not too much". That's not how English works. I'm sorry even with me being non native speaker I see contradiction in above sentence & your first post.

Fred_Avant_2019 · August 20, 2023

Il y a 19 heures, Binket_ a dit :

Do you hate fun? Do you not understand basic gameplay?

Did you even read this post? Are you a bot? You're a bot, aren't you?

Well, whatever. I'll humor the audacity.

Yeah, anyone can slot on "big stat" and press "barbarism" to win.
But at that point, why even have Melee? Why even have guns?
Why not just press a single button, realize that there's nothing fun about that, Alt-Tab out...
... and go uninstall the travesty you want this game to become.

Tone it down snowflake, and learn to read between the lines when people use sarcasm.

Do you geniunely think anyone out here is a E-spam enjoyer?

Why be so upset and insulting when your original post can be summarized as this :

Il y a 19 heures, Binket_ a dit :

The goal isn't to change their stats wildly, nor is it to change their identity... it's not even to make it "better than [XYZ]"

It's just to the depth of wielding one much more vast. To make it more fun to use without actually changing too much on it.

You're asking for a melee weapon type to be fun, when every melee type just ends up going through this process :

Oh look, I just got a new stance.
Uses said stance.
Alright, that was something I guess.
E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.
Bored.

Melees get stale quicker than guns. You don't ever have the chance of big dopamine release unlike when you see big oogabooga number on headshots. They just do their thing with minimal investment.

I read this :

Il y a 19 heures, Binket_ a dit :

You can do better than just mindlessly spam things.

If you want that? Go use Xaku you deranged thing.
... but just ultimately keep it yourself.

then this :

Il y a 19 heures, Binket_ a dit :

You wanna know why people get bored of this game?

It's stagnant. From the stats we heard? Most players don't even get past the Second Dream.
The game is- in terms of most- incredibly boring.

I don't blame them either, when a kit like Revenant's exists? Why bother? All the challenge is suckled out.
The only players left that are currently playing are:

Extreme brutes who just want to mash things into oblivion like a feral cryptid.
Where you could put a gore-themed cookie clicker in front of them and they'll be entertained the same way.

They don't care for puzzles, combat-- anything. They're just in enough denial to blockade the thought of how pathetic that is.

People who find fun in how many weapon options we have.
They realize the missions, enemies, stories... and realistically most prospects of the game are pretty boring.

However, the amount of variety of intrigue in the way they can wield the weapons is enough to tie them over.

It's the creativity and usage OF said weapons that matter, not the sheer brutality of it.

... and let's be real here, if we're catering to the former? It's simply because DE can milk more money out of them.
BECAUSE they're so stupid, they'll be willing to shell out 80 something USD for a brand new killstick, only because it has a shiny butt on it... or it's "meta" strictly because it's popular for reasons it never earned.

and now I wonder who really is deranged. Especially that last bit.

Il y a 19 heures, Binket_ a dit :

it's "meta" strictly because it's popular for reasons it never earned.

Frames and Weapons are always meta for the same reasons.

Usable in most scenarios.
Highly efficient.
Performs exceptionally well against the toughest content/enemies the game has to offer.
Ease of use.

At no point is the meta about fun stuff. The viral slash combo is done to death and as stale as can be, but at the end of the day it's still the most effective tactic available. Weapons and frames that can abuse it the best are bound to end up meta. The meta being popular goes a long way to show people care about not sucking at the game.

Calling people stupid because DE charges them 80 bucks for the latest pack of frame and weapons doesn't do anything else than make you look like a mindless kid throwing a tantrum. DE "milks" people that don't have 10 hours a day to spend playing the game and don't feel like waiting a month per rare drop. Or maybe they just want to support a game they like?

Binket_ · August 20, 2023

17 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

Gunblades should use the tactical combo (hold block/aim+attack) for actually firing.

That's a part of what I already suggested, yeah.
Simply taking one half of the Stance (Hold/Not holding Block) and letting THAT do projectiles.

While weapons like Corufell, Argo & Vel, etc. are fun to use, they rely strictly on their heavy attacks to do so.
Tends to make them pretty repetitive.

2 hours ago, quxier said:

What do you mean wobble?

As the Warframe shifts itself around, the slight deviation of that tends to throw off aim juuuuuust enough to throw some inaccuracy in there.

It's like if someone poked your arm as you were aiming. It skews it.
It's most noticable on Edun, which has a very evident and jarring jump to the right.

2 hours ago, quxier said:

I get it that aiming is important but not everything has to be 100% where you aim.

The problem is that if I'm using Samba Slash? It's- realistically- for two reasons:

Backpedaling shots.
Evasion.

The former is clunky because it moves you in two very strict diagonal lines that ideally could've just been one roll directly back if all else.
Because it keeps moving you, it's extremely clunky.

The latter is pointless. We have slide pivoting for that.
Which is the use of a Slide's beginning momentum mid-animation to "pivot" your position.
Effectively the same thing as what the roll is trying to do, but manual.

2 hours ago, quxier said:

Not every combo should be used in all situations. Bullet dance at least has all combos useful in some situations (if only 2 combos: standing & moving where at least swapped). Lots of weapons has only usable ~1/2 of combos.

I mean, stances only using half the combo is usually a BIG contributor to the whole "just press one button" mindset that some folks have.
A lot of them just aren't useful, period.

I tend to enjoy stances like Rending Crane and Tempo Royale because all of their attacks are useful.
Not all of them are equal, sure-- but they at least warrant use.

For Bullet Dance, the only two attacks I can count on are the non-blocking combos.
Anything but fluid, mostly hard-focusing their projectiles to the point where I'd rather use Heavy Attacks.

2 hours ago, quxier said:

That's the point of Block+move combo. They are gap closers. Some throw your frame instantly (like this), some do ranged attack first (Tonfa family).

Which... in my opinion? Would fare better if it had no Projectile on the end.
Even still, other Melees usually have a long slash or a large arc to catch enemies in the process.

With Gunblades, you kinda just.... jump forward and THAN launch a volley of shots.
The Melee attack only comes after said shots on Bullet Dance. High Noon completely exempts such.

Feels incredibly backwards.

2 hours ago, quxier said:

If we had better melee system then yes. However with current system I would preferer better distinction between all ranged Bullet dance and close combat High noon.

2 hours ago, quxier said:

So, you are going to nerf all stances to have it be less clunky instead of... you know... fixing them? This is HORRIBLE suggestion. Why? You want 1 attack to be projectile. You have dozen of such weapons already. No need to create yet another one. Gunblades are being unique and they should stay that way.

And "this solution turn off game by melting enemy" is problem, nerfing melee won't fix that.

A nerf is not at all what I'm suggesting.
This "proposed change" ONLY is for Bullet Dance and High Noon.
I'm not sure where you got the idea I was talking about all stances...

These two are notorious because ALL of their attacks are projectiles.
... to the point where you could just make it a secondary using Melee mods and nobody would notice the difference.

The current system can work just fine.
It just needs to be organized better.

By setting the Gunblades _{(and specifically Gunblade)} stances into "halves", you give the player choice to pick one or the other on a dime as they see fit.
This- in turn- naturally lets the player evolve their practice and skill into using both effectively as the situation demands it.
Where it's no longer "I have to use [X] combo and maybe [Y] combo rarely", it becomes the entire stance used in equal measure.
It's not "removing" projectiles entirely. It's rather just balancing the scales of combining "Melee" and "Gun."

Those situations I mentioned are simply more fluent examples of how such works.
Because realistically speaking? Why would I use a Redeemer when an Exergis paired with a Nikana gives far more dynamic play?
Not because it's "more powerful" or even "faster"... or any of that sort.

It's just because it's more fluent. I can swap between the two far more easily.
I can mod my Exergis for Status and add Condition Overload on my Nikana.
I'm asking for a similar degree of fluency, not to say "one style is better" or whatever.
Not a stat chance. (positive or negative)
Nor a playstyle chance. (dedicated users to it's current usage can still force one part over the other)
Just making it more "fluent".

We've asked for similar things before, just see many MANY suggestions on Hydroid.
Most of them will probably mention "removing the windup on his 1 and 4" for a major improvement... and they're not wrong.
Will it 100% fix Hydroid? No, but it will make a major improvement to the kit.
Same idea here.

3 hours ago, quxier said:

Gunblades aren't only in categories of "melee range" and "long range gun". There are gunblades in between. Stropha has wide but short range. Sarpa is slim but has longer range. Redemeer makes it even more. We don't have anything very long range gunblades

That's... what I said, yes.

Some adjust the ranges they're good at. Like as you said, Stropha being closer and Sarpa having further range.
But they all falloff with their ranges VERY quickly. Especially considering the actual "falloff" stat itself.

"Has linear damage falloff from 100% to 14.29% from 20m to 40m target distance" for Sarpa
"Has linear damage falloff from 100% to 16.67% from 10m to 20m target distance" for Redeemer.
"Immediate damage falloff from 100% to 50% after 11m target distance and from 50% to 10 base damage from 15m to 17m target distance"
"Have linear damage falloff from 100% to ?% from 23m to 49m target distance" for Vastilok.

All copied directly from the Wiki.
This basically means that if you're too far away, the damage will be less.
This isn't exactly a Gunblade-specific thing either, plenty of guns naturally have this as well.
Including Rubico Prime, a literal Sniper Rifle. (Falloff stat is 400-600 meters. Normally a non-issue.)

It was also in reply to the other person. Since they were comparing Gunblades to Glaives.
Both are powerful Melees with ranged options, but function so wildly different that their reasons for having shoddy stances are galaxies apart.

42 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Do you geniunely think anyone out here is a E-spam enjoyer?

I'd like to believe they don't exist, don't get me wrong.
... I've SEEN this happen too many times however.
To the point where I can't help but feel concern for their health.

They're usually the same people who play Revenant or Wukong religiously.
Which is a whole other can of worms, one that spills into way too many other topics for my liking.

45 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

You're asking for a melee weapon type to be fun, when every melee type just ends up going through this process :

Oh look, I just got a new stance.

Uses said stance.

Alright, that was something I guess.

E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.E.

Bored.

Melees get stale quicker than guns. You don't ever have the chance of big dopamine release unlike when you see big oogabooga number on headshots. They just do their thing with minimal investment.

That's just the entire game, when you boil it down like that.
I've always enjoyed Melees more than guns simply BECAUSE they're far more varied.

Take "Eleventh Storm" for instance, one of my favorite stances.

The standard attack is a shield bash followed by several quick slashes.
The moving attack is some simple large arcs that are quick to finish.
The block attack tosses the shield, giving a more "stationary" attack that favors getting the jump on groups.
The block+moving attack is a full-on facial charge that leaves a small visual field around you. Letting you know that it IS hitting things.

It's also a stance that I can still enjoy even at Attack Speeds I normally wouldn't use it at.
... and that's because it's well-designed. Every attack is clear while feeling impactful.

The difference between a good stance and a bad stance is simply how well it controls.
Stats are secondary, as we can always mod it into the stars for power either way.

1 hour ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

and now I wonder who really is deranged. Especially that last bit.

You refer to the those quotes like that's the ideal.
To be fair? I don't even know why DE caters to the people who mindlessly flail themselves around.
Especially when a large majority of those players who are "new" don't even experience most of the game.
I can't think of a single reason to keep that model around besides "deceit to make money".
^{Even in that case, I can't help but think that's a rather shallow way of looking at it from a Money-Making perspective.}

Half of "Power Fantasy" comes from wielding that immense power.
If you just ignore that half, you can call "Cookie Clicker" a Power Fantasy game.

... but is anyone REALLY gonna do that? No.
Not without trying to be a malicious contrarian anyway.

I can't stop someone from being incredibly comatose while playing the game.
At the same time, I'm not going to idolize a version of the game so stripped of itself that a Facebook Farmville clone could add more interesting updates.

1 hour ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Frames and Weapons are always meta for the same reasons.

Usable in most scenarios.

Highly efficient.

Performs exceptionally well against the toughest content/enemies the game has to offer.

Ease of use.

At no point is the meta about fun stuff. The viral slash combo is done to death and as stale as can be, but at the end of the day it's still the most effective tactic available. Weapons and frames that can abuse it the best are bound to end up meta. The meta being popular goes a long way to show people care about not sucking at the game.

We're playing Warframe.

Gods of Death made from ferro-flesh being piloted by demons wielding eldritch power.
All of them having supernatural abilities ranging from manifesting blades to harpoon anything that moves to summoning meteors around every target within it's sight to turning friend against friend in a chaotic psychokinetic frenzy-fest.
Using weapons that range from assault rifles all the way to actual cannons you use on a large mounted turret.
Being able to glide across the battlefield so quickly that it's like a crimson whirlwind came in and turned everyone you knew into a smear on the wall.

... all to fight factions that- on most days- barely put a dent in our first layer of defenses.

"Anybody can use the meta, it doesn't mean they'll do it well."

I will always see someone who is playing the current "big meta" set and expect the worst.
Mainly because they probably googled the first result and slapped it on without even a single thought.

You show me someone using Revenant, Wukong, Xaku, etc. today?
I could probably find their exact build within the first three results on Overframe. Mod for mod.

You show me someone using Yareli, Trinity, Caliban-- or hell, even Ash?
I can rest easy knowing they're MOST LIKELY going to know the bare basics.
By them knowing the bare basics? I can rely on them to do more than sheer barbarism.
^{Which if ya don't know? Is a LOT stronger than "Hey, I'm invincible!" because they can use said kits for more than themselves.}

I have no problem with "high extreme power", but when it's reducing itself down to either:

Spam the same button until the heat death of the universe. (Comatose)
Become so bloated with stats that nothing can match you. (Dismissive)

... how do you withstand that when the game is already pretty damn repetitive?
If this were any other live service game where the "new gear" is almost always objectively stronger?
Sure, get the new gear. That's expected at that point.
Warframe isn't like that though.

It's not like DE can really nerf those things either.

They gave Wukong an Ammo requirement on his clone. Basically a TINY slap on the wrist.
Along with lowering the ammo on weapons like the Kuva Zarr.

What did that do? Cause nearly 13.9k negative reviews. Mostly from China.
It wasn't a problem for those who used weapons with decent ammo reserves on Wukong.
It wasn't a problem for those who managed their ammo well by picking up said ammo.
It was only a problem for those running the most braindead and comatose strategies.

That isn't the result of meta though.
That's the result of trying to fix something that was plaguing the game for a while.
Everybody wanted it to happen, but it wasn't enough clearly.

Yet they'll refuse to give Limbo a better visual indicator for his Rift.
All the while making Revenant's Mesmer skin even tankier.

At this point, it's only meta because DE can't make anything engaging when the community demands more ketamine to doze off with.

1 hour ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Calling people stupid because DE charges them 80 bucks for the latest pack of frame and weapons doesn't do anything else than make you look like a mindless kid throwing a tantrum. DE "milks" people that don't have 10 hours a day to spend playing the game and don't feel like waiting a month per rare drop. Or maybe they just want to support a game they like?

If someone knows what they're buying and why they want it?
Fine, it's their money. I have no problem with that.

... but I'm referring to the people who hear "Hey, Revenant is literally invincible!" and drop a whole paycheck on a whim just to feel like the top-tier man.
In reality though, we're all playing something that's invincible in one way or another.
We just know what we're doing versus the people who blindly threw money at the screen.

I always tell people:
"If you're gonna buy Prime Access? Buy the Accessories. You'll still be giving DE the money and you'll have something to do ingame later by farming for the parts.
If all else? You can use the Platinum gained from the Accessory bundle to buy those weapons off another player."

By doing the latter? You support DE, you can use some shiny fashion AND you support players actively playing the game through the ingame economy.
All while still playing the game and not immediately jumping into the power-creep of it all.

However, the overall verdict remains the same.
We have 53 Warframes to choose from now and HUNDREDS _{(not even including Variants)} of weapons to pick.
Surely I shouldn't have to see people running Wukong and Ignis Wraith for over 50% of their account's playtime... on a 500 to 1000 hour range.
I do see it though and that's depressing.

quxier · August 20, 2023

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

5 hours ago, quxier said:

What do you mean wobble?

As the Warframe shifts itself around, the slight deviation of that tends to throw off aim juuuuuust enough to throw some inaccuracy in there.

It's like if someone poked your arm as you were aiming. It skews it.
It's most noticable on Edun, which has a very evident and jarring jump to the right.

Ah, so only Sarpa, bullet dance's block combo has that wobble.

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

6 hours ago, quxier said:

Not every combo should be used in all situations. Bullet dance at least has all combos useful in some situations (if only 2 combos: standing & moving where at least swapped). Lots of weapons has only usable ~1/2 of combos.

I mean, stances only using half the combo is usually a BIG contributor to the whole "just press one button" mindset that some folks have.
A lot of them just aren't useful, period.

I tend to enjoy stances like Rending Crane and Tempo Royale because all of their attacks are useful.
Not all of them are equal, sure-- but they at least warrant use.

For Bullet Dance, the only two attacks I can count on are the non-blocking combos.
Anything but fluid, mostly hard-focusing their projectiles to the point where I'd rather use Heavy Attacks.

Here is the thing. Moving combo stops you from moving (slash around). Standing combo looks like it wants to move (forward or backward).

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

6 hours ago, quxier said:

That's the point of Block+move combo. They are gap closers. Some throw your frame instantly (like this), some do ranged attack first (Tonfa family).

Which... in my opinion? Would fare better if it had no Projectile on the end.
Even still, other Melees usually have a long slash or a large arc to catch enemies in the process.

With Gunblades, you kinda just.... jump forward and THAN launch a volley of shots.
The Melee attack only comes after said shots on Bullet Dance.

Feels incredibly backwards.

I feel it's normal attack. You jump towards enemies and shoot them in meantime. It's not like close range attack that deals small damage and ragdoll enemies (not sure if they fixed that OR fixed kullervo/1 using gunblades).

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

6 hours ago, quxier said:

So, you are going to nerf all stances to have it be less clunky instead of... you know... fixing them? This is HORRIBLE suggestion. Why? You want 1 attack to be projectile. You have dozen of such weapons already. No need to create yet another one. Gunblades are being unique and they should stay that way.

And "this solution turn off game by melting enemy" is problem, nerfing melee won't fix that.

A nerf is not at all what I'm suggesting.

So from your quote:

On 2023-08-17 at 2:10 PM, Binket_ said:

The easiest solution to this part is simply letting ONLY THE BLOCK COMBOS do projectiles. (Or vice-versa. The point is to seperate them into "modes" of sorts.)
This allows players who are actively using the gun to hit targets that are closer-by while using the projectiles as they see fit.
Heavy Attacks can stay as they are, but the possibility of opening the Gunblade to using Melee hits properly allows the weapon to be far more enjoyable outside of spamming one button.

While fixing up stances would benefit a LOT of Melee weapons? Gunblade are by-far the biggest example of such benefits.

where are you adding something to gunblades?

All I see "remove projectiles from N, M... attacks". That's definition of nerf.

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

This "proposed change" ONLY is for Bullet Dance and High Noon.
I'm not sure where you got the idea I was talking about all stances...

You and I were talking about projectiles so it's obvious we are talking about ALL STANCES OF gunblades. You could add Glaives or something similar but It's silly to assume ALL WEAPONS.

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

By setting the Gunblades _{(and specifically Gunblade)} stances into "halves", you give the player choice to pick one or the other on a dime as they see fit.

That's why you have 2 stances. What's the point of BULLET dance if big part of moves are not BULLETS?

You can also add another, hybrid stance(s). It's like Amalgam mod that used to reduce rolls. They fixed that but some player liked shorter version.

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

This- in turn- naturally lets the player evolve their practice and skill into using both effectively as the situation demands it.
Where it's no longer "I have to use [X] combo and maybe [Y] combo rarely", it becomes the entire stance used in equal measure.
It's not "removing" projectiles entirely. It's rather just balancing the scales of combining "Melee" and "Gun."

It doesn't change too much. Let's say you remove attacks from non blocking combos (moving & standing). After change:

- standing combo does nothing because it was just shoots

- moving combo weirdly stops you every few moves and slash around you

Yeah... that's NOT going to make us use all combos.

4 hours ago, Binket_ said:

Those situations I mentioned are simply more fluent examples of how such works.
Because realistically speaking? Why would I use a Redeemer when an Exergis paired with a Nikana gives far more dynamic play?
Not because it's "more powerful" or even "faster"... or any of that sort.

It's just because it's more fluent. I can swap between the two far more easily.
I can mod my Exergis for Status and add Condition Overload on my Nikana.
I'm asking for a similar degree of fluency, not to say "one style is better" or whatever.
Not a stat chance. (positive or negative)
Nor a playstyle chance. (dedicated users to it's current usage can still force one part over the other)
Just making it more "fluent".

If you are going with "why use X if Y do it faster" then you go into route were some small part of game is very efficient/fast and other part are bad in comparision.

You know what is fluent? Using Xaku + GoL (+Vast untime to not have to recast) + armor stripping (I like STyanax'). I'm just running around, slapping armor strip, maybe add K.Nukor and everything is death. It's very fluent. There are probably people that can just press one key and whole map is death. That's more fluid.

You see, this game can be cheesed via damage in most cases. Archon hunts? Laughable. Just pack enough damage to brute force it. And what is the most fluid? Aoe, auto-damaging abilities (e.g. Xaku/GoL/2) etc. You cannot change melee without modifing game itself.

4 hours ago, Binket_ said:

We've asked for similar things before, just see many MANY suggestions on Hydroid.
Most of them will probably mention "removing the windup on his 1 and 4" for a major improvement... and they're not wrong.
Will it 100% fix Hydroid? No, but it will make a major improvement to the kit.
Same idea here.

Major improvements? Nah, it just makes it more braindead/lazy. And it would remove some sort of "challenge". You must know when to cast quick CC and when you can stop to charge it. It's like Xaku/2 with and without using time stopper (4th).

Binket_ · August 21, 2023

17 hours ago, quxier said:

where are you adding something to gunblades?

All I see "remove projectiles from N, M... attacks". That's definition of nerf.

If I removed the the tarp off a car so I can see out the windshield, I guess that's a nerf now.
Removing something isn't ALWAYS a nerf.
Otherwise, the "Slicing Feathers" stance got a nerf by removing the animation where you fanned yourself mid-attack.

... yes, the whole point here sounds silly because the thing I have to reply to here is silly.

17 hours ago, quxier said:

You and I were talking about projectiles so it's obvious we are talking about ALL STANCES OF gunblades. You could add Glaives or something similar but It's silly to assume ALL WEAPONS.

On 2023-08-20 at 7:17 AM, quxier said:

So, you are going to nerf all stances to have it be less clunky instead of... you know... fixing them? This is HORRIBLE suggestion. Why? You want 1 attack to be projectile. You have dozen of such weapons already. No need to create yet another one. Gunblades are being unique and they should stay that way.

HALF the stance, not 3/4th the stance.
Not even the whole stance either.
Just half.

It's not even asking much.
You still have the other half to do projectiles and you'd use them in much the same way you do already.
The only difference is that you can use the other half to swing it like a proper Melee.

As an additional note:
The only weapons to have projectiles on their normal attacks are Gunblades.
This is excluding Aerial attacks from Vitrica and Exodia Contagion-- which both prefer incorporating a Heavy Attack in there anyway.

They ALSO have a projectile on all their attacks.
Most of which are scuff to aim and there would be very little downside to organizing the whole stance.

Please do not make me repeat myself a third time.

17 hours ago, quxier said:

That's why you have 2 stances. What's the point of BULLET dance if big part of moves are not BULLETS?

Than what's the point of High Noon by your logic? "2% Less bullet?"
That's a moot point and you know it.

20 hours ago, quxier said:

You know what is fluent? Using Xaku + GoL (+Vast untime to not have to recast) + armor stripping (I like STyanax'). I'm just running around, slapping armor strip, maybe add K.Nukor and everything is death. It's very fluent. There are probably people that can just press one key and whole map is death. That's more fluid.

You know what the difference between Xaku and a Gunblade is?

Xaku doesn't need to make an input. At all.
Sure, it's may be "fluent" so that you'll never stop... but it's also incredibly boring.

But that's because Xaku has to press like... 3 buttons at most to really maximize his power on a dime.
After that? You can AFK and nothing will matter beyond that.

With a Gunblade using half/half stance as I mentioned before, it's how you use both sides of it that matters here.
Two people with the exact same build running the same mission with the exact same enemies may have entirely different ways of using the Gunblade with a method like this.

With Xaku, you can kinda expect the usual gist is going to be "Grasp of Lohk" and "Vast Untime".
Everything else depends on fast they get bored.

I'd argue Xaku is more "overbearing" than "fluent".

20 hours ago, quxier said:

You see, this game can be cheesed via damage in most cases. Archon hunts? Laughable. Just pack enough damage to brute force it. And what is the most fluid? Aoe, auto-damaging abilities (e.g. Xaku/GoL/2) etc. You cannot change melee without modifing game itself.

20 hours ago, quxier said:

Major improvements? Nah, it just makes it more braindead/lazy. And it would remove some sort of "challenge". You must know when to cast quick CC and when you can stop to charge it. It's like Xaku/2 with and without using time stopper (4th).

... really? Reeeeeeally?
Are you genuinely going to use these as points?
Genuine question.

quxier · August 21, 2023

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

21 hours ago, quxier said:

where are you adding something to gunblades?

All I see "remove projectiles from N, M... attacks". That's definition of nerf.

If I removed the the tarp off a car so I can see out the windshield, I guess that's a nerf now.
Removing something isn't ALWAYS a nerf.
Otherwise, the "Slicing Feathers" stance got a nerf by removing the animation where you fanned yourself mid-attack.

... yes, the whole point here sounds silly because the thing I have to reply to here is silly.

It's silly for you... and for me as well. However for different reason.

Back to topic, you may not call it nerf but it's still reducing viable options (although some are buggy).

You cannot say Slicing feather stance was nerfed (at least with 100%). In Bullet dance, you are removing shoots. Slicing featers "fan animation" were just moved at the end.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

On 2023-08-20 at 12:17 PM, quxier said:

So, you are going to nerf all stances to have it be less clunky instead of... you know... fixing them? This is HORRIBLE suggestion. Why? You want 1 attack to be projectile. You have dozen of such weapons already. No need to create yet another one. Gunblades are being unique and they should stay that way.

HALF the stance, not 3/4th the stance.
Not even the whole stance either.
Just half.

It's not even asking much.
You still have the other half to do projectiles and you'd use them in much the same way you do already.
The only difference is that you can use the other half to swing it like a proper Melee.

Just half is still a lot.

There are 2 alternatives, according to you:

1) remove shots from non blocking combos

2) remove shots from blocking combo

In case of 1) I'm either moving to side (blocking combo) OR moving towards enemy. That's not always what I want.

In case of 2) I have 1-2 broken combos (moving combo stops you; standing combo moves forward... a little, afair)

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

As an additional note:
The only weapons to have projectiles on their normal attacks are Gunblades.
This is excluding Aerial attacks from Vitrica and Exodia Contagion-- which both prefer incorporating a Heavy Attack in there anyway.

They ALSO have a projectile on all their attacks.
Most of which are scuff to aim and there would be very little downside to organizing the whole stance.

Please do not make me repeat myself a third time.

That's why gunblades should have projectiles on normal attacks. I won't repeat it again :D

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

22 hours ago, quxier said:

That's why you have 2 stances. What's the point of BULLET dance if big part of moves are not BULLETS?

Than what's the point of High Noon by your logic? "2% Less bullet?"
That's a moot point and you know it.

Why it's moot point? As for now 2 stances are just random mix of melee attacks and shoots. If you want to use bullet oriented stance... you cannot.

Some weapons has many stances (even 4). Why it's so bad for GUNblades have:

- 1 stance that's mostly about shooting (sliding might be hard with shoots) - we have Bullet dance that suggest that.

- 1 stance that is mostly about melee attack - it can be High Noon or another stance

- other stances that are mix of gun and melee attacks, that's where YOUR suggestion fit (e.g. you can create new stance)

That way you can pick whatever you want, not changing playstyle of people that enjoy given stance

ps. this would be nice for your suggestion:

Binket_ · August 22, 2023

6 hours ago, quxier said:

That's why gunblades should have projectiles on normal attacks. I won't repeat it again :D

Than I'm not reading further. Clearly you're insistent on keeping it the exact stock standard jank as it is right now with zero changes.

We can go back and forth until the sky collapses upon the density of that mass you call a skull.
But I'd genuinely rather not. If you can genuinely say "Hydroid will get more braindead" by losing the windups on his 1 and 4?

There's nothing to be gained from there.

Fred_Avant_2019 · August 22, 2023

I mean, if you're so desperate about having full on split blade on one combo and gun on the other, you might as well just have a 3rd stance mod be created instead of butchering some that MIGHT feel fine to some players (not me specifically, I don't find them too great, but at least it's not Wise Razor / Butcher's Revelry).

Couldn't hurt to have more stances in the game to be fair. I'm not even talking about balance or guaranteed slash procs on 2nd hit combo, I just want some more with more clear gaps between "fast stance with quicker but weaker strikes" and "slower stance but with more weight to each attack".

That and probably a way to alter the follow through stat with corrupted mods, with two opposites : one that'd increase the follow through stat but diminish damage, and one that would do the opposite. As for gunblades, the latter might even be considered a good mod, if it existed.

quxier · August 22, 2023

3 hours ago, Binket_ said:

10 hours ago, quxier said:

That's why gunblades should have projectiles on normal attacks. I won't repeat it again :D

Than I'm not reading further. Clearly you're insistent on keeping it the exact stock standard jank as it is right now with zero changes.

Well, you are stuck on messing stance INSTEAD of creating new one, like Fred above said (and I explained but you haven't bothered to read).

Binket_ · August 22, 2023

21 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Couldn't hurt to have more stances in the game to be fair.

While I don't exactly disagree with "more stances", we're already going down THAT road with all sorts of useless Melee categories as is.

As cool as Heavy Scythes are in concept, I wouldn't have nearly as much problems with them if they were just Heavy Blades.
Namely because that "new stance" is.... really bad. It's clunky, it's slow and it needs a lot more polish.

Don't even get me started on "Dual Nikanas", because whoever wanted specifically Dual Nikanas is asking a lot more than I am here.

Unfortunately, unless you're drawing a winning lottery ticket?
The chances for DE to fix things that simply are next to negative chances.
Odds so low that it will rebound and end up worse.

So I'm working with what I got.

Personally though? I don't see the need for High Noon, Bullet Dance and a theoretical THIRD stance to exist.
I am fairly certain that the amount of people that would be affected by such a change wouldn't even break triple digits... let alone double digits.

The chances of finding who will be annoyed over such go slimmer as you realize the further down this list you go?
You find...

A large majority will just use Xaku or Wukong anyway to ignore most combat.
- Of whom use traditional guns anyway since the falloff of Gunblades tends to be detriment to them.
Those who aren't about as bright as a walking corpse tend to fall into two sub-categories:
- Those who like controlling their gear well. (Who would enjoy a change like this)
- Those who like outputting the biggest number with zero effort. (Be virtually unaffected by a change like this, if they even saw it.)
Most players who want a "projectile Melee" will use a Glaive Category Melee because they have extremely high damage and zero falloff.
Otherwise, they're using a weapon like Hate or Ack&Brunt which just add projectiles onto existing combos. Ones of which have some decent attacks to them.
Those who aren't using Glaives or Incarnon Melees are usually using something Corufell, Caustacyst or Tenet Grigori.
- Weapons that link such functionality to their Heavy Attack and strictly their Heavy Attack.
Even if all the above is still not enough to deter that point, people will just use the Heavy Attack on Gunblades anyway because the stances are jank as is.

If ya really wanna say "make a new stance" than how about just High Noon.
Everybody uses Bullet Dance anyway as is.

quxier · August 23, 2023

4 hours ago, Binket_ said:

On 2023-08-22 at 3:09 AM, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Couldn't hurt to have more stances in the game to be fair.

While I don't exactly disagree with "more stances", we're already going down THAT road with all sorts of useless Melee categories as is.

Unfortunately, unless you're drawing a winning lottery ticket?

The chances for DE to fix things that simply are next to negative chances.
Odds so low that it will rebound and end up worse.

So... let's change current stances in a way that SOME people don't like. Says that DE WILL make it worse. You are just trying to mess stance(s) at this point. I don't find another explanation.

Binket_ · August 23, 2023

58 minutes ago, quxier said:

So... let's change current stances in a way that SOME people don't like. Says that DE WILL make it worse. You are just trying to mess stance(s) at this point. I don't find another explanation.

You're forgetting this is the same studio that would rather change the entire Corpus Ship tileset to fix the most common complaint of:
"A window breaking- regardless of player input- puts the map on lockdown. Requiring the player to address it."

If logic applied? This wouldn't even be an issue to begin with.
I'm just working with what I got.

Even still, are you really going to use all 4 of it's attacks for the purpose of just projectiles?
^{On second thought, don't answer that. I have a hunch it'll be whatever you can find that's the most redundant.}

Edited August 23, 2023 by Binket_
Typo. It's late.

Alter_Bodark · October 13, 2023

lets be honest "POLISHED THURDS" (gunblades) are "NOTHING MORE" than "MASTERY" farming regarding them in any other way is just setting youself up for disapointment.

yes de could make gunblades more useable but they wont becuase at the end of the day they look at there clinets (you and myself) as nothing more than suckers.

is it the end of the world "POLISHED TURDS" (gunblades) are just "BAD" no because there plenty of other melees out there that are just simply better than a "POLISHED THURD" that forces you to break away from what the game was designed around and thats movement.

Qriist · October 13, 2023

Renzokuken or bust.

Alter_Bodark · October 13, 2023

pretty much, so yeah im not wasting forma or potato on a one trick pony.

Binket_ · October 26, 2023

On 2023-10-13 at 3:12 AM, Alter_Bodark said:

lets be honest "POLISHED THURDS" (gunblades) are "NOTHING MORE" than "MASTERY" farming regarding them in any other way is just setting youself up for disapointment.

I was finding this old post because I was gonna show somebody it.

I prefer to look in a cynical- yet still resourceful- outlook on things.
What they can do is merely what is within restraints of the game's engine.
It's entirely possible to change this small aspect of Gunblades to make them far more usable.
Far easier than whatever fever-dream of a hyper-fixation DE is working on this time, I'll say that much.

Besides, I find variety is the only way keep one's self from going insane in this game.
I got Mastery completely and done and it's nothing short of short-sighted endeavors to say that's enough to keep on occupied.

At the very least, Gunblades have potential to be fun. I can't say the same for weapons like Blade and Whip series which just aren't intuitive enough.
Even still, the amount of redundant Melees as well just makes me ask questions like "Why isn't Heavy Scythe just a Heavy Blade or Hammer?" for instance.

... also, weird tangent-- what's with the quotation marks? You do have formatting for italics or bold, y'know.
^{Than again, I've gotten flak for using the formatting in unique ways... so honestly? Who cares at this point. The internet will never have anything nice.}

- EDIT -

Since a recent update made it topical...

On 2023-08-20 at 4:10 PM, quxier said:

On 2023-08-20 at 11:35 AM, Binket_ said:

We've asked for similar things before, just see many MANY suggestions on Hydroid.
Most of them will probably mention "removing the windup on his 1 and 4" for a major improvement... and they're not wrong.
Will it 100% fix Hydroid? No, but it will make a major improvement to the kit.
Same idea here.

Major improvements? Nah, it just makes it more braindead/lazy. And it would remove some sort of "challenge". You must know when to cast quick CC and when you can stop to charge it. It's like Xaku/2 with and without using time stopper (4th).

So, how's those recent Hydroid changes going for ya? Almost like we were onto something, hm?
Not that I need to ask you, but I do so anyway to remind you to use your head for more than a bludgeoning tool. Please and thank you.

Personally, I think the changes to Hydroid are great.
It's a lot more fluid and gives him more to be involved with.
The tentacles picking up enemies is keeps them still enough now that I can tolerate it at worst.
^{Especially since it'll be replacing Khora quickly, which is a VERY welcome change.}
A kit that works in softening up enemies to kill them quick, it's pretty damn nice.
Not (truly) perfect, but a great and vast improvement.

Though, odd tangent...
You know what also could use some changes? Gunblades.
You know what doesn't need as drastic changes like a Warframe Rework? Gunblades.
You know what kinda changes could be done to a weapon within a reasonable amount of time? Gunblades.
You know what kinda solution would be super fitting for said Gunblades? Wow, would you look at the topic.

I don't get why the Warframe Community can be so fixated on their whole "no nerf my gun!" schtick.
If you can't survive without this one item? Perhaps you shouldn't.
After all, we have literal hundreds of options, I assure you that a few handful being removed from your common picks will be the least of your concerns in the near future.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Binket_
See that cool portion labelled "Edit"? Wow, maybe you should look at that. Shocker, I know.

quxier · October 26, 2023

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

On 2023-08-20 at 9:10 PM, quxier said:

On 2023-08-20 at 4:35 PM, Binket_ said:

We've asked for similar things before, just see many MANY suggestions on Hydroid.
Most of them will probably mention "removing the windup on his 1 and 4" for a major improvement... and they're not wrong.
Will it 100% fix Hydroid? No, but it will make a major improvement to the kit.
Same idea here.

Major improvements? Nah, it just makes it more braindead/lazy. And it would remove some sort of "challenge". You must know when to cast quick CC and when you can stop to charge it. It's like Xaku/2 with and without using time stopper (4th).

So, how's those recent Hydroid changes going for ya? Almost like we were onto something, hm?
Not that I need to ask you, but I do so anyway to remind you to use your head for more than a bludgeoning tool. Please and thank you.

Personally, I think the changes to Hydroid are great.
It's a lot more fluid and gives him more to be involved with.
The tentacles picking up enemies is keeps them still enough now that I can tolerate it at worst.
^{Especially since it'll be replacing Khora quickly, which is a VERY welcome change.}
A kit that works in softening up enemies to kill them quick, it's pretty damn nice.
Not (truly) perfect, but a great and vast improvement.

If something is simple then it can be more fluid more easily THAN something more complex.

Hydroid might be stronger but it doesn't make him much better for me. It's more boring. I've tried it after the update and I've not touched it since. 1st is stronger but that's it. 2nd is still clunky but at least can move SOME enemies. 3rd is... I don't know. It requires group of enemies otherwise you get tiny armor. Maybe there is synergy between 3 & 2 but I think 3rd has enough range for that. 4th is just better.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

Though, odd tangent...
You know what also could use some changes? Gunblades.
You know what doesn't need as drastic changes like a Warframe Rework? Gunblades.
You know what kinda changes could be done to a weapon within a reasonable amount of time? Gunblades.
You know what kinda solution would be super fitting for said Gunblades? Wow, would you look at the topic.

Changes suggested by you to gunblades are drastic, afair. Fixing stances are easier (remove that first/last move, add some effect, swap combos etc). There are other stuff that are easy & would improve gameplay. Yours, imho, are not.

1 hour ago, Binket_ said:

I don't get why the Warframe Community can be so fixated on their whole "no nerf my gun!" schtick.
If you can't survive without this one item? Perhaps you shouldn't.
After all, we have literal hundreds of options, I assure you that a few handful being removed from your common picks will be the least of your concerns in the near future.

It's not about nerf but about changing whole "feel". Hydroid hasn't been nerfed. It was even "buffed". However, at the same time, it was vastly changed. His "feel" has changed. They could make different frames, change his kit. But they changed Hydroid. Change with Grendel were pretty nice. It hasn't changed his kit too much. Sure, you can eat less, but you can eat every time.

Binket_ · October 26, 2023

11 hours ago, quxier said:

Maybe there is synergy between 3 & 2

More like his 3 has synergy will all parts of his kit? Hell, even his passive in some capacity.

Plunder gets more Damage+Armor if enemies are affected by Corrosive Procs.
... which is- coincidentally enough- what all of his abilities do.

11 hours ago, quxier said:

Changes suggested by you to gunblades are drastic, afair. Fixing stances are easier (remove that first/last move, add some effect, swap combos etc). There are other stuff that are easy & would improve gameplay.

image.png?ex=654c7265&is=6539fd65&hm=471
_{^{Yeah, shame on me for thinking that was enough time for them to reflect upon.}}

No more "drastic" than implying it's fine the way it is. Though... it's easier to ignore the problem than address it, isn't it?
^{Whatever, I'm sure that philosophy will work out well. Like a Fairy Tale! Where everyone forgets the horrors that came with them, praying for a happy ending from somebody who can't handle the way it is.}
Which I'm sure benefits only the most stubborn, where not even ideas that benefit them are fine if it means they're even 0.1% wrong.
^{Such ignorant measures only serve to prevent nice things from happening. Given the chance, I'd rather rob those kinds of people of their senseless pride first and THAN talk about it. Saves everyone tons of time.}

Fixing stances that already exist is not only the most logical way to do this, but also one of the easier roads to take.
Especially given that one of the two stances we currently have are commonly considered "inferior" by most.

If I were a developer, I wouldn't spend time coding an entirely new upgrade when the old ones aren't being used. Especially due to clutter.
When I say "remove projectiles on half the stance", it's because nobody was using them properly anyway.
We spam one attack of choice because every other option is- without a doubt- unwieldly.
If you can't use the weapon, it may as well have a -100% Accuracy penalty upon simply equipping it. Damage doesn't matter if you can't even hit the damage.

That's the main reason why "the biggest damage number" is a silly and stupid idea.
It implies there is a SINGLE person out there who is going to follow this gargantuan recipe for x50 overkill when we do x10 on the daily with a FRACTION of the effort.

In that regard, I'd like to say what makes weapons like Venka Prime and Dual Ichor so good for me right now.
And to keep it short? It's the stances. They're quick, flashy and have incredibly good angles to hit from.
It's very easy to wield them- regardless of power- but if they had some stance like Galeforce Dawn? I'd find them terrible.
Like it or not, stances really do make a Melee weapon.

If you're not gonna fix the stance, you may as well toss the entire category in the bin.
Which is exactly the idea with things like Dual Nikanas. It's clunky, so we got better options. For both fun and efficiency.

12 hours ago, quxier said:

Yours, imho, are not.

And your opinion is irrelevant. Especially since you'll refuse to back it up with much.
^{Feel free to prove me wrong.. and yes, that IS a challenge since that's what I need to make people talk proper these days.}

For instance, I don't like Citrine due to all that release controversy making it impossible to enjoy her without some horny moron making very creepy comments.
Despite that-- I'm not going to call her kit bad based on that alone. That's a "me" issue and I recognize that.

In that aspect, I'm using less of an opinion and more of an "observation" of the gear itself. What it does and nothing more.
"Sure, one could do that... or we could try this." is the catalyst for a myriad of improvements to life.
We didn't start our legacy through catching grubs. We started it when somebody said "Yeah, this way is better" and it WORKED.

12 hours ago, quxier said:

It's not about nerf but about changing whole "feel".

Time changes things. Time will not stop because you desire it, it is an intangible concept.
It will continue it's efforts without a shred of mercy nor malice.
Trust me, I'm living in a personal hell right now where pausing time would be the perfect solution.
But hey, while it ain't gonna happen? I'm still here, so I'll make the most of what I got

12 hours ago, quxier said:

They could make different frames, change his kit. But they changed Hydroid. Change with Grendel were pretty nice. It hasn't changed his kit too much. Sure, you can eat less, but you can eat every time.

Making a new Warframe doesn't fix Hydroid though.
That is incredibly narrow-minded, to the point where you've found the Primed Narrow-Minded mod. _{^{(*Sitcom laugh track*)}}
We wanted Hydroid to be DECENT let alone good, making what is effectively "Hydroid Prime Prime" would ring incredibly hollow.
What we got was exactly what we wanted. So no duh we say "Yes, more of this please."

A lot of Warframes that get requested to have "Reworks" only have a few aspects of their kits that fall behind, but enough to be a notable problem.
I find the way Warframes like Grendel and Ember were handled to be a VERY good understanding of how to make them memorable.
A LOT more weapons tend to get ignored, as they're not as much of the focal point. Gunblades tend to be just one of those in the pile.

As commonly request Warframe to be "reworked" is Chroma.
You don't need to change all of Chroma. His biggest downsides are his 1 and 4, so if you change those to work IN TANDEM with his 2 and 3?
The issues that stand with the 2 and 3 as they are now become irrelevant and actually become a net positive.
Likewise, you don't need to change that much of Gunblades.
The biggest problem is that the entire stance feels awkward.
The solution in that case is to offset that in a way that doesn't compromise the entire weapon.
"Change what only needs to be changed and let the rest benefit from said change. If the rest does not benefit, it wasn't a good change to begin with."

Hydroid is still Hydroid. Grendel is still Grendel. Ember is still Ember. All of them received big overhauls, but are still "them" at the end of it.
Their core idea has not changed much, the "feel" of the Warframe has only been enhanced-- regardless of opinion.
So I don't think it's a "drastic, cosmic, Machiavellian idea" to change like... two attacks in the Gunblade's toolkit at a minimum to make it more fluid.

But hey, since apparently changing things to be more fun is a no-no these days?
Every time I use a Gunblade now, I just tell myself "I could be having fun, but nobody wants me to."
... and so I stop using it because I know so long as the mindset of "NO CHANGE, BIG BAD" persists like a cancerous tumor, we'll never have nice things.

Which is a shaaaaame. If only there was a way to fix this!
Y'know, without me having to slowly whittle my patience down into splinters that resemble passive-aggressive commentary in a desperate act to get SOMETHING done by the ancient notion of "sharp pointy bits". Since y'know, I need to actually rile people up... SO ONLY THAN do they acknowledge the issue at all.

quxier · October 27, 2023

10 hours ago, Binket_ said:

23 hours ago, quxier said:

They could make different frames, change his kit. But they changed Hydroid. Change with Grendel were pretty nice. It hasn't changed his kit too much. Sure, you can eat less, but you can eat every time.

Making a new Warframe doesn't fix Hydroid though.
That is incredibly narrow-minded, to the point where you've found the Primed Narrow-Minded mod. _{^{(*Sitcom laugh track*)}}
We wanted Hydroid to be DECENT let alone good, making what is effectively "Hydroid Prime Prime" would ring incredibly hollow.
What we got was exactly what we wanted. So no duh we say "Yes, more of this please."

Making new Hydroid won't change him. However the amount of changes makes Hydroid different frame. Hence, it would be better to make new frame.

Some part of "we" wanted changes in his abilities NOT changed abilities. That's different.

10 hours ago, Binket_ said:

Hydroid is still Hydroid.

10 hours ago, Binket_ said:

Their core idea has not changed much, the "feel" of the Warframe has only been enhanced-- regardless of opinion.
So I don't think it's a "drastic, cosmic, Machiavellian idea" to change like... two attacks in the Gunblade's toolkit at a minimum to make it more fluid.

Hydroid is still Hydroid?

Well :

1) Different passive

2) Different 3rd ability

3) Corrossive synergy

I would say that's like... I don't know at least 2 of 5 of his abilities/passive has changed then IT IS DIFFERENT. Like.. do I need to argue about this? It's simple fact.

Same for gunblades. As I said probably, 2 of 4 attacks main attacks makes it very different stance, hence "drastic" change. It's the facts.

ps. you can argue about "drastic word definition" but:

Quote

drastic

adjective

uk

/ˈdræs.tɪk/ us

/ˈdræs.tɪk/

Add to word list Add to word list

C1
(especially of actions) severe and sudden or having very noticeable effects:

from Cambridge

With "fit big part of kit/stance will be changed" as drastic or something.

10 hours ago, Binket_ said:

But hey, since apparently changing things to be more fun is a no-no these days?
Every time I use a Gunblade now, I just tell myself "I could be having fun, but nobody wants me to."
... and so I stop using it because I know so long as the mindset of "NO CHANGE, BIG BAD" persists like a cancerous tumor, we'll never have nice things.

Which is a shaaaaame. If only there was a way to fix this!
Y'know, without me having to slowly whittle my patience down into splinters that resemble passive-aggressive commentary in a desperate act to get SOMETHING done by the ancient notion of "sharp pointy bits". Since y'know, I need to actually rile people up... SO ONLY THAN do they acknowledge the issue at all.

You know my definition of fun with gunblades. You know that changing part that some one may like instead of introducing new things (mods, frame etc) is not always good. It's especially the case if you change big part of something (Hydroid, your suggestion regarding Gunblade). Yet you just want to troll me (us). I honestly wanted to "TL;DR" but for my stupidity I've answered. It's last time if you are going with same stupid argument of "change my stance instead of introducing new mod/stance".

Fred_Avant_2019 · October 27, 2023

Le 26/10/2023 à 19:28, Binket_ a dit :

Trust me, I'm living in a personal hell right now where pausing time would be the perfect solution.

But hey, while it ain't gonna happen? I'm still here, so I'll make the most of what I got

That's no reason to lash out in a thread when people's point of view differ, maybe you are not doing so, which I believe you're not, in good faith, but it looks like it, unfortunately.

If people treat gunblades as just a third gun in their arsenal I don't think it's that big of a deal, they're just seeing the easy to understand easy to use heavy attack oriented builds. So be it.

I don't mind having a new stance that goes with a completely different approach where we have a combo that's exclusively blade and a different one that's exclusively gun, but at the end of the day, that's not what the weapon archetype is trying to reach in the first place. If you build for range on a gunblade, you're not there to use heavy attacks specifically, but rather just roll with the built-in combos from the stances so that when the blade part of gunblade comes you're not left swinging in the air waiting for your next round to come off the mag. People don't really do that, but they could. I ended up doing it since my last post on this thread, and I don't think it's that horrible, it's really weapon dependant, but it's definitely something that you need to get used to before mastering it, which is kinda cool actually?

Idk, I kinda used to dislike Redeemer's blast-only bullets, but it's kind of a free extra status for Condition Overload because I never have to mod for it. Vastilok is a superior choice too due to slash weighting and base status chance, but I like my options.

Le 26/10/2023 à 04:20, Binket_ a dit :

I don't get why the Warframe Community can be so fixated on their whole "no nerf my gun!" schtick.

Because they've seen some crap. You look a couple years back, well, a little more than just a couple, and you see Ember getting hit in the face really hard because World on Fire is problematic in low level missions. Then you take a good look at a range centric build on Gyre and see her perform better than Ember ever could, but realise it doesn't matter because it's the entire game that shifted around a completely different take on damage numbers as a whole, not to mention Thermal Sunder funnies with Titania or Garuda specifically used to demolish normal void fissures. Everyone loses their crap the second you touch the balance of the game because it's that important, it's not just a Warframe thing either. If you don't understand the reasoning behind it then I doubt you can make sense of your demands.

Le 26/10/2023 à 04:20, Binket_ a dit :

If you can't survive without this one item? Perhaps you shouldn't.

After all, we have literal hundreds of options, I assure you that a few handful being removed from your common picks will be the least of your concerns in the near future.

That's SO not the case. The one thing that holds this game together is modding. If you want a clear living proof/example/whatever you wanna call it, you have the Circuit for that. How come? Slap on the pre modded default builds on your frames and weapons. You can have the frame that's regarded the most op with the most op weapon, if its mods are garbo, then you're not gonna perform, that's just how it is. Besides, bold second statement, considering we've had such a similar occurence when ammo changes dropped. The weapons are still there, they do still pack quite a punch, but you're gonna need to invest with mods to bring up their usability, one way or another, your previously free aoe dps build has been removed in a sense that there are now consequences and drawbacks to the equipment you carry, unlike previously, which means you're gonna have to compromise.

Just because it can still exist in some form doesn't mean the game hasn't seen a shift in the way it's played. But then new tool came out, again, and now we have better faster stronger versions of everything that makes old gear look like mr1 arsenal. The thing is, just because those weapons had the short end of the stick in ammo reserves doesn't mean the update was a bad idea or poorly executed, it was necessary, and the way it's been done hasn't reduced their damage performances, it was only a usability nerf, which I agree leads to further discussions of dps lost in the sense that you risk ending up without ammo for your main gun, obviously, but then you need to factor more things like mob spawns, map layouts, ammo drop rates, ammo conversion and mission types too.

So that's why I don't see your statement as really valid, for Warframe, it's more of a "You can't complete this one mission? Perhaps you should mod accordingly." thing. I'm an average sniper rifle enjoyer, I love to take out my Vulkar Wraith from time to time, as bad as Snipers have it in the general opinion, I can assure you they do all the damage they need to do, because I mod them big time with mod setups that will usually take me 4 to 5 formas, just like I would any other weapon that I WANT to survive with. Some weapons are unredeemable pieces of garbage that I won't touch in a thousand years, but that only applies to whips (though funny verdilac memes are funny). I can't bring myself to put gunblades in the same sorry category as every other whip, maybe the Sarpa, at worst, but that's pushing it. Likewise, there is only one frame that I can't enjoy playing like I do whips and the crown would go to Inaros because outside stacking health, modding Inaros doesn't bring anything. You can mod for whatever amount of range, strength duration and efficiency on this guy, and he still won't do a thing. Nothing works because he's not designed to do anything specifically, he's just there and he threatens to put some dirt in your eye. (Though Loki isn't far behind, but that's a whole different topic, because the difference is that mods do work, but what he's trying to achieve no longer meets the game's standards)

When modding stops mattering, that's when Warframe stops being Warframe. Then you realise every gamemode that's been looked at funny was content where modding is limited or simply not included in the formula. Am I right Drifter? Am I right Kahl? Am I right Operator? Am I right Archwing? Dare I say it, am I right Railjack? Grendel acquisition missions? Even K-drives, of all things, are almost interesting when you actually start modding your board. They're not, but they almost make it. For the target audience. Whom Warframe players probably are not.

Mods are (mostly, sorry Warm Coat) so game changing that it makes the player that much more involved into improving all the time, greasing an already well oiled addictive machinery of having always some more stuff to do all the time that keeps you into it, it's insane. It makes it that much more frustrating when you start stagnating because you're already at peak performance and you no longer get the good chemicals of "Wow. I own this. I'm the danger now. Look at me go.".

Because of all of that, it's no surprise that when updates come regarding modding, everyone starts losing their minds, be it in a good or bad way : it affects the entire game's balance more than anything else, just like when Critical Decceleration was this garbo' +36% crit chance mod that evolved into the meta defining +200% we know today. Changing stance mods is no different from this example when it's done in similar proportions, which your suggestions demand. Hence the appropriate level of defiance towards them.

Did I make my point clear enough? Or do we need another fifty pages of thesis and gaming analysis?

Le 26/10/2023 à 19:28, Binket_ a dit :

But hey, since apparently changing things to be more fun is a no-no these days?

Every time I use a Gunblade now, I just tell myself "I could be having fun, but nobody wants me to."
... and so I stop using it because I know so long as the mindset of "NO CHANGE, BIG BAD" persists like a cancerous tumor, we'll never have nice things.

Which is a shaaaaame. If only there was a way to fix this!
Y'know, without me having to slowly whittle my patience down into splinters that resemble passive-aggressive commentary in a desperate act to get SOMETHING done by the ancient notion of "sharp pointy bits". Since y'know, I need to actually rile people up... SO ONLY THAN do they acknowledge the issue at all.

You need some help. I'm not joking. With this mindset you're a threat to yourself. You don't have to do this. Your desperation brings you only more frustration and suffering. It's not helping your cause. Concentrate, regain your focus. Your efforts are wasted if your methods are twisted. Melees as a whole are not in the best state, and there are always comments and threads about them needing a rework. Gunblades are but one of them. Melees reworked as a whole would not only likely improve gunblades feel and gameplay, but also improve all other weapon types that are otherwise lacking due to stances or stats. Your unhealthy obsession with gunblades brings down the substance of your ideas leaving them to rot in your mind like throwing a piece of cheese at the bottom of a trash can that has everyone complaining about the smell.

There is just as much hope for melee as there was for Hydroid. Wether you like you what they have done with his rework or not, you cannot deny that he was changed to be played by modern standards in the game's current sandbox and manages to do what he attempts to. We have waited years after years, endured powercreep upon even more powercreep, but it's finally there. The resulting changes may or may not appeal to everyone, like the disappearance of Undertow and Tidal Wave having fixed speed, but it's undeniable that Hydroid is far more playable than he ever was. So my closing words are as follows :

Have patience. The day melees are reworked will come soon enough. Anger and wild tantrums will not speed up the process. The state in which melees are right now is nowhere near comparable with the state in which Heirloom packs released and as such, taking the piss to have people yell at DE like they did then won't achieve a thing.

Binket_ · October 28, 2023

18 hours ago, quxier said:

1) Different passive

2) Different 3rd ability

3) Corrossive synergy

Hydroid is still Hydroid.
I'm going to be blunt, you're still going to use him the exact same way as before.
The use cases where each of his powers work are the still the same.
His 1 and 4 are still AoE, damaging effects. With his 1 softening enemies up and his 4 stopping their advance.
His 2 is still just as good for mobility and drags enemies along. Now it just synergizes better.
His 3 has changed, but both were primarily used for survivability. Cast it when you need a breather.

Now it's just better. Stop.

18 hours ago, quxier said:

It's last time if you are going with same stupid argument of "change my stance instead of introducing new mod/stance"

You're being selfish. I don't see any other reason you'd be insistent on that

As someone who has been using Spearguns for what-is-practically years now?
I don't care if they change them, when Veilbreaker happened? They were still useful to me and still are.
But mainly because if I begged for them to NEVER CHANGE? Nothing cool would out of them.

Change is how things move forward.
Adapt your playstyle or get left behind.
^{I know it's a lot of Warframe players, but for gods sakes-- EVEN CHILDREN ARE CAPABLE OF THIS.}

49 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

If people treat gunblades as just a third gun in their arsenal I don't think it's that big of a deal, they're just seeing the easy to understand easy to use heavy attack oriented builds. So be it.

An interesting part of this hypothetical change is that it doesn't effect those players.
Those people who use it for it's Heavy Attack/Quick Shot are still capable of doing so.
Even more so now that they can even weave some extra Melees in there if they desire.

It's just that it drives me nuts when people are like "Oh, no you can't!" without even giving the obvious a single thought.

53 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Everyone loses their crap the second you touch the balance of the game because it's that important, it's not just a Warframe thing either.

I understand that aspect of it.
... I also understand that if people are going to be stubborn on issues, nothing will get fixed. At all, zero of it.

ESPECIALLY in a game like Warframe, where something COMPLETELY unrelated can break from some asinine change.
That's just the nature of the beast we're dealing with here.

Do I like it? Not really. I don't understand why SCANNER SPEED would be affected by Mirage's 3.
Do we have to accept that this is gonna happen, unless we stop updates altogether? Absolutely.
Should we ignore things to keep some frail sense of security? No, because that's when things break the hardest.

57 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Because they've seen some crap. You look a couple years back, well, a little more than just a couple, and you see Ember getting hit in the face really hard because World on Fire is problematic in low level missions. Then you take a good look at a range centric build on Gyre and see her perform better than Ember ever could, but realise it doesn't matter because it's the entire game that shifted around a completely different take on damage numbers as a whole, not to mention Thermal Sunder funnies with Titania or Garuda specifically used to demolish normal void fissures.

Funnily enough, I'd still these issues to be addressed.
... which is difficult when you get people being stubborn on "Don't change muh frame!" because- realistically- it's DE refusing to look at the core of the issue.

I _{(try to)} say it how it is because skirting around the issue is what DE does best. I hate it a ton, but I work with what I got.
I don't think Thermal Sunder is that great for gameplay, even low-tier fissures. Especially since it prevents many a player from doing anything else.

Gyre becoming Old-Ember redone is... a bit of a half-truth. I can see where it's coming from, but I also can see for reasons that it's different.
Mainly because I've used both. I can see the differences between both, even if they are similar in some aspects.
The game has also changed plenty compared to that time. I don't believe World on Fire (or old Ember as a whole) would work that well in Steel Path.

My personal outlook is that "high powered builds designed to nuke areas can be a problem in low-tier missions"... and since that's not something you can solve easily with "nerf [XYZ] to help the low-tier missions", I'd look into capping such powers in those missions.
... but while that idea seems good on paper? I can't trust the Warframe Community for ANYTHING beyond the most crude of responses.
So instead, I try the next best thing in those cases. I don't like it for a second, but that's how people are.
^{It sickens me to my core, but that's what I get for daring to live on this accursed rock.}

1 hour ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

That's SO not the case. The one thing that holds this game together is modding.

I'm just gonna cut that bit short and say:

"If ONE mod is holding your entire weapon together from becoming irrelevant?
It's either an augment designed as a classic DE bandaid... or it's available for every weapon like Serration."

But mods are just ONE aspect of the entire kit. If you're entire kit devolves into ONE. SINGULAR. ABILITY. trumping everything else?
Why even bother at that point? Literally everything else becomes pointless. You don't need to try new weapons with that kinda use, they're ALL bad.

Yes, builds are what make a weapon. It's ALSO why weapons that encourage build diversity are a great benefit in my eyes.
Spearguns are a great example. Depending on HOW you want the Speargun to work? You'll probably have COMPLETELY different mods on.

Just Config A and Config B of my Scourge Prime is wildly different. Mainly because one boosts reload and the other focuses on Status.
Both will likely be used the same, both will change the outcome drastically.

Melee is no exception. A stance is simply a different method for this similar kind of "differing" outcome.
... at least, it ideally should be. Unfortunately, it's current state is "whatever does the most damage" provided it even HAS multiple stances.

It's also the reason Heavy Blades, Claws and such with multiple stances tend to be more favored. You can see the person BEHIND said stances if they truly engage with the game.

1 hour ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

So that's why I don't see your statement as really valid, for Warframe, it's more of a "You can't complete this one mission? Perhaps you should mod accordingly." thing.

Mods are a half of the picture.
Execution of using said mods is the other.

If you rely strictly on mods to do your work? The mission is over before it even began. You're being dragged through it, though fun is debatable.
If you rely strictly on skill? You'll find you'll have a lot more on your plate than you asked for.

As it currently stands in Warframe? I feel the former has been the focus so hard that the latter is mocked for even existing.
Yet, if you don't grow yourself as a player-- how is anything going to change?!
Even the most casual of players grow, they learn, they adapt. Slowly, maybe even in ways they didn't even know... but they do grow.

It's a universal constant for us. If it was instantaneous to learn? Nobody would remember it. It'd be as manual and forgettable as you automatically breathing.
You don't think about it, dare I say you even take it for granted (And that's to be expected)... it's even used as a joke with "Manual Breathing Activated" causing you to even remember that you CAN do such.

https://youtu.be/pnmvaWRBDA4?si=bQ0Mo-4HGDkz1Gob&t=326 for an example of said joke. I'm sure there's plenty others.
^{Also an unrelated note? Good series.}

If you're having trouble with a mission, sometimes one piece of gear probably won't instantly finish it for ya.
Now that I think about it? It's but another reason why Disruption is so beloved.
It doesn't matter what you pick. Strong or slow, powerful or weak... what matters is that you use the strengths you have to make the most of it.

1 hour ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

When modding stops mattering, that's when Warframe stops being Warframe. Then you realise every gamemode that's been looked at funny was content where modding is limited or simply not included in the formula. Am I right Drifter? Am I right Kahl? Am I right Operator? Am I right Archwing? Dare I say it, am I right Railjack? Grendel acquisition missions? Even K-drives, of all things, are almost interesting when you actually start modding your board. They're not, but they almost make it. For the target audience. Whom Warframe players probably are not.

Drifter is fine, though I do wish the Melee was more intricate rather than "just heavy attack everything, lmao".
Though to that? I blame the enemy variety not taking full advantage of it's own system. Classic DE thinking in that regard...
Kahl's main problem (in terms of missions alone) is repetition. Especially since all the missions he's in feel like some "early-game" part of his side-schtick.
Again, more DE failing to execute what the hell his good perks even are-- being the limited arsenal and how they can make "puzzles" ala Zelda-style around it.
I can think of SEVERAL scenarios off the top of my head for that alone.
- For instance, gladiatorial pit where has to "unveil" Grineer in the pit all to fend off various sentients. All while gaining various optional weaponry to use.
- Scrapping an abandoned Corpus Derelict, which involves using the Jetpack to traverse large environmental hazards and dropping bombs to open pathways. More of a "mobility puzzle" than a combat mission, but still harkens to Warframe's core.
- Those are just two for examples.
Operator itself isn't a problem. It's when people get antsy that they don't have the "omni-killstick" button in quests.
Being forced to use to use the child-battery instead because there's no possible way DE can tell a story with ANY level of stakes when they're involved.
If anything, it's a byproduct OF the insane powercreep of our kits.
- If I ran War Within with a Warframe the entire way through? The quest would be as forgettable as Stolen Dream or Once Awake. Quests that you play as a newbie and than forget they existed until you're dragging some other newbie through the starchart.
Archwing as a concept isn't the worst. Yet again, it's the execution of it. There was nothing "new" implemented for the most part and became relatively forgotten.
- People love playing Titania, yet it's effectively the same thing. Archwing isn't the issue, it's the lack of implementation and it's poor execution.
- And for the sake of keeping this short? This goes for Railjack as well. The fact that the "Corpus" side added was just normal missions with Railjack stapled on just angered everyone. For the reason of it not adding anything we asked for.
K-Drives are a flawed concept with or without mods. They're barely relevant, only tacked onto a quest involving a Warframe that had it stapled to K-Drives to make the damn hoverboards SLIGHTLY relevant.
- Not to mention, they're only meant for transportation in open worlds. Something that shows in how clunky they can be in normal missions AND how irrelevant they are by being outclassed in every way by Archwing and the damn teleport pads.
- Hell, I was there Fortuna was released. I openly said "What is the point of that?!" when they showed it on DevStreams... doubly so when they ALSO said that "Archwing Launchers will become infinite use" making me question in what universe was K-Drive supposed to be useful? They could've done everything K-Drives do... but with Archwings and nobody would question it.
- Also, no. K-Drive mods are effectively useless. They can barely kill Level 10 enemies for all they require let alone put a dent in anything else. For everything else? It's band-aid. The only ones to matter are whatever makes it easier to get affinity/standing... which are usually the last ones to be obtained. I doubt there's a way to make them better anyway, even with releasing the arbitrary caps on them.
Grendel Missions lose their mods... along with Gear Items, Operator Usage, various "Unique Traits" on weapons (including the damage bonus on Kuva/Tenet weapons), nearly all the precepts and utility of Companions and more.
- It's less a case of "losing mods" as it's more a case of being stripped of literally everything fun to make it tolerable... in missions like Excavation and Defense which are already questionable picks for such a condition. ESPECIALLY Excavation which is fully capable of being cleared with little hassle... but with FAR more stress at the sheer monotony.

TLDR: All of these examples are not fun/unfun because of mods or lack thereof.
They're generally unfavorable because they're either not Warframes themselves and/or lack good execution.

There's a reason players like me get on DE's case about all of these, actually. It's because of that very same execution.
Mods will not solve that. Making it good to begin with WILL.

Case and point, this proposed Gunblade change follows a similar philosophy. Execution, "how the damn thing works to begin with".

1 hour ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

It makes it that much more frustrating when you start stagnating because you're already at peak performance and you no longer get the good chemicals of "Wow. I own this. I'm the danger now. Look at me go.".

Wow, it's almost like actually honing your skills to be as flashy as possible would providing an nigh unobtainable- yet still rewarding- goal to strive for is actually a good idea in this game. Coincidentally, asking for Gunblades to have better control not only benefits this ideology-- but also has zero impact on players who used it before the change.

What a concept!

1 hour ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Because of all of that, it's no surprise that when updates come regarding modding, everyone starts losing their minds, be it in a good or bad way : it affects the entire game's balance more than anything else, just like when Critical Decceleration was this garbo' +36% crit chance mod that evolved into the meta defining +200% we know today. Changing stance mods is no different from this example when it's done in similar proportions, which your suggestions demand. Hence the appropriate level of defiance towards them.

Yeah, see... here's the thing.
I've been around for a good long while.

Since the Pyrus Project, actually.
I've seen the meta shift time and time again.
Be it small addition or big addition-- it doesn't matter.
We all adapt and learn in the process.

Wanna know something funny? Back when Melee was changing significantly (I believe around the time of Kuva Liches... I could be wrong), I couldn't manually swap to my Melee unless I UNEQUIPPED all my other guns.
This was a pretty big blow to my current playstyle, as Melees were far more fun to me (and still are).

So instead of being an idiot and settling for less, I looked into a gimmick I once encountered. Spearguns.
Back than? They'd temporarily unequip themselves if you threw them, which changed in Veilbreaker.
So I'd unequip my Secondary and equip a Speargun of choice. This allowed me a range option while still using Melee.

The point of this story is to show that just because something breaks or you are forced to change? Doesn't mean you're forced to suffer.
I actually GREATLY enjoyed that new playstyle because it was a lot more fun than previous one. Was still annoyed at DE- don't get me wrong- but I developed a playstyle that I wouldn't have been able to normally.

That's... kinda why balance changes exist. It forces you to GET a new strategy and stay engaged.

2 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

You need some help. I'm not joking. With this mindset you're a threat to yourself. You don't have to do this. Your desperation brings you only more frustration and suffering.

I know very well what stress it causes and why it's happening.
Unfortunately, I also know that I have two general outcomes for this:

I give up, annoyed at myself for even trying and bottle up everything I feel for a few more years. "Everything is fine, let's just have some mindless, brainless fun!"
I do it anyway, because the effort itself- while frustrating- can lead to something better. It may not be a pretty process, but who else is gonna do it? Nobody so far, so what's the point in waiting any more?

TLDR: If I didn't do anything, I'd be equally as annoyed. So I'm going to DO something about it!
If nothing happens, well-- I'll feel better knowing I can mock others who said "Nah, that's a bad idea" later!
^{Well, I say "feel better"... but really, it's just to say "NOW you're going to listen to me? Figures." as this happens far too often if ya can't tell.}

2 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Your unhealthy obsession with gunblades brings down the substance of your ideas leaving them to rot in your mind like throwing a piece of cheese at the bottom of a trash can that has everyone complaining about the smell.

Gunblades are just this topic. (which has gone FAR off from it, great job guys!)
I could go in depth about every Melee if I wanted to-- hell, Warframes and Pets and whatever else too.

A very resources mind tends to see the cracks in something, but instead of panicking like everyone else?
They decide: "Hey, wait a second. This can actually be used in our favor!"

When one sees a dented ball, they see a golf ball in the making. Where the dents actually augment it's airflow for the better.
When one sees a fatal bug, they see something can be turned in a major mechanic.
When you see an "obsession", I speak of very in-depth look at what can be.

... ah, but I forgot. This is the Warframe Community!! I guess minimalism really IS making a comeback!
Let's go in a squad with a 4 Wukongs prior to his nerf, camp in a Locker and say "Well, I guess we're having fun!" because who even remembers what "fun" is at this point?

Seriously though, do you really want the game to be like that? Reeeeally?

2 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Melees reworked as a whole would not only likely improve gunblades feel and gameplay, but also improve all other weapon types that are otherwise lacking due to stances or stats.

and

There is just as much hope for melee as there was for Hydroid. Wether you like you what they have done with his rework or not, you cannot deny that he was changed to be played by modern standards in the game's current sandbox and manages to do what he attempts to.

Except...

We've been asking for a Hydroid rework for actual years. If you look at it from a pragmatic point of view? It shouldn't have taken this long at all.
The changes are- for the most part- not significant enough to justify the wait.
- It's a good change, yes. It's precisely what we wanted... but it took HOW long to get this?
- Who's to say another Melee Rework won't take even longer to have happen?
- Who's to say even SIMPLE changes to singular categories won't take longer?
The original "Melee Rework" that I spoke of a few points is actually the main reason we even WANT another rework. It was done in such poor taste for the sole reason of making "guns more viable", which was the whole point as DE said.
- While it wasn't all bad, as there are parts to take away from it-- there is still a desire to fix what was originally broken by said hasty actions.
- The point of this post was a small change that can be done without a huge adjustment to Melees as a whole.
- Meaning less time required WITH less chance of it being a largely disliked change.
The hypothetical change in this feedback is merely to put the idea of "Hey, there's no Melee portion of this Melee if you really look at it" on display.
- It's also to say that other similar Melees function far better than Gunblades at their own gimmick, simply BECAUSE of such. Corufell is the biggest example of such.
- We also have options like the Hate Incarnon which equally works as a "just spam projectiles" Melees.

I'm not asking for a rework. I'm asking for a small technical change to a weapon.
May I also remind you that the other person replying there just wants "one more stance instead", despite the fact that both of the current stances are so similar in execution that overriding ONE of them would actually save far more developer headache.

Even still, that's up to DE. Not me. Either way if they add one or not would satisfy this hypothetical change.
But alas, people will refuse change-- so it's kinda their own saving grace that I can't bludgeon them with a textbook.
^{Metaphorically, of course. Violence would probably make them dumber and I can't risk that.}

2 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

The state in which melees are right now is nowhere near comparable with the state in which Heirloom packs released and as such, taking the piss to have people yell at DE like they did then won't achieve a thing.

Oh, don't get me wrong about the Heirloom Packs, they're a whole other brand of atrocity.
... which is precisely why I can't give a single shred of patience with DE.
If they're just gonna sweep that nonsense under the rug? Why even BOTHER with the pretense of respect? They clearly don't respect us.

Not that it's a surprise, really. Money do as money be, corrupt.
Patience is something I have to take loans out for now.

On a separate addition to the topic, one that isn't directly a reply to anything...

I've noticed I forgot some bits on this when I was using some Gunblades a bit more (because SURPRISE! I actually vary my weapons!).
Two things namely:

The shockwave blast is incredibly annoying for precision.
- Anytime I try to hit something with Melee OR Projectiles? It just ragdolls them in ways that makes both miss.
- This only furthers the idea that trying to use it as a Melee is a moot point while it conflicts with the falloff on ranged-only playstyles.
- Combine with the fact that many Gunblade Stance attacks kinda throw you in wild directions makes it even more annoying to aim.
Kullervo's Wrathful Advance COMMONLY misses after it's change with Projectile-Melees.
- I didn't have this issue before, because I'd manually fix my aim to that direction.
- I know it was because of players on controllers, but it should HIT in that case. Not mildly miss the target.
- At this point, it's just a nerf for PC players and a moot point for Console players. It serves no role but detriments.

Well, whatever. Let's see what happens THIS time.

Gunblades need their stances looked at.

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