tennocon 2023 accessability octavia

[_Anise_]

Pablo said (forgive the paraphrasing)

"it started as accessability was auto melee"

"have you ever felt the pain of spamming E like crazy"

"basically once we tried it with auto melee which is essentially you just hold it it just melees it felt so much better that we decided to make that the default"

("also bringing in a new mechanic to make (auto) melee more fun")

you can probably see where I am going with this ? can we also fix octavia so we don't have to spam to gain / keep stealth ?

[sunderthefirmament]

32 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

Pablo said (forgive the paraphrasing)

"it started as accessability was auto melee"

"have you ever felt the pain of spamming E like crazy"

"basically once we tried it with auto melee which is essentially you just hold it it just melees it felt so much better that we decided to make that the default"

("also bringing in a new mechanic to make (auto) melee more fun")

you can probably see where I am going with this ? can we also fix octavia so we don't have to spam to gain / keep stealth ?

Yes please. There are many frames on my “needs a rework” list, and Octavia is near the top. She’s powerful, obviously, but terrible to play. Rhythmic teabagging for buffs is one of the worst ideas I’ve ever heard of, and it should have been laughed out of whatever planning meeting/brainstorm session it spawned in.

[Birdframe_Prime]

3 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

can we also fix octavia so we don't have to spam to gain / keep stealth

But... you don't?

For the last four years I've been using a 'Smoke on the Water' mandachord song, you only have three notes to hit in the bar, as long as you have the timing down you hit those two notes and go invisible just as reliably as on the spam build. You can accidentally hit it to refresh just by normal bullet-double-glide-slide actions too.

This is because the percent gain of invisibility is based on how many notes you put into the bar, so if you have a spam-every-note version, you have to crouch multiple times very quickly to get the invisibility, which is the problem you have.

In most cases it takes you exactly as long to get the invisibility with a spam build as it does with a two-note build. Try it out for a bit. Save your fingers.

Spoiler

[_Anise_]

45 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

But... you don't?

on the wiki it says by default buffs from Metronome last 15 seconds , assuming you hit these 3 notes perfectly every time ignoring lag, latency etc and refresh the buff exactly every 15 seconds in a survival with 3 notes you spam crouch 12 times a minute, 360 times per half hour, 720 times an hour, wanna do a 3 hour mission ? 2160 times!!!

not counting having to reapply it when you die, not counting missing a note due to latency lag, being knocked on your ass , being energy drained etc

do we really have to ? really ? would the game break and the sky fall if they even just added an augment even that removed this stupid requirement and made it a press to stealth? someone thought it was "funny" to force octavia to run around teabagging, it's not funny, its not fun and it adds little value to gameplay, (leave in allies have to spam because allies, I don't' care)

TLDR if you are part of the group that can stand it ? give yourself a pat on the pack, but consider there are a lot of other people that would like some QOL on the feature, you know like exactly what they are doing to Melee because its not fun to have to constantly press the same button 3 times every 15 seconds, realistically every 11 - 12 to prevent it falling off, 3 per 15 is 2 times too many.

Edited September 1, 2023 by _Anise_

[BroDutt]

 

7 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

can we also fix octavia so we don't have to spam to gain / keep stealth ?

Octavia stealth is a feature not her main ability. We just abuse it because it's convinience. The Mallet + Resonator is her main function, distract and reflect enemy fire. Her 4 (amp) however is the one that need modification.

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

13 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

on the wiki it says by default buffs from Metronome last 15 seconds

Which is extended by? Duration. Considering how easy it is to get Duration with both modding, Shards and even Arcanes, and that buffs can be refreshed while active, crouching twice on the beat every 40 seconds has worked for me for four years.

Invisibility is there so you specifically don't get knocked on your ass or energy drained, her 1 and 2 are there specifically so you don't get knocked on your ass or energy drained, all of her abilities are Duration based so that if you get Energy Drained they keep going until you can refill on energy.

It just boggles my mind that the one Invisibility function in the game that is longer Duration than Loki's, Voruna's and Ash', has no on-going Energy drain like Ivara's, and can be refreshed while active as long as the main ability's Duration is still going (meaning that in one cast you can not only be invisible from the start, but refresh it at the end of the cast to stay invisible while the cast isn't even active), and is also complimented by one of the strongest radial CCs that works on regular and Eximus units, and one of the strongest scaling damage abilities in the game, having the single additional cost of crouching on the beat twice every forty seconds is... somehow being complained about as spammy when that's just the idiot Content Creators claiming it's the most efficient way to get the buffs.

The ability isn't just the stealth either, you're spending one cast to get invisibility, multishot, movement speed and even melee damage (which on my build ties in perfectly with a Heavy Attack function with something like the Stropha because the slower hits can be synched with the spaced out notes better).

Would the game break if it was removed? No.

Does it need to be? No.

Was my point that a player doesn't have to spam crouch every time they want to go invisible because this is a mistake made by people who don't understand how the ability works? Yes.

[_Anise_]

4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Which is extended by? Duration. Considering how easy it is to get Duration with both modding, Shards and even Arcanes, and that buffs can be refreshed while active, crouching twice on the beat every 40 seconds has worked for me for four years.

well stacking duration is not mandatory, but you think maybe they shouldn't do auto melee too ? if they can make the amount of melee attacks scale with something ? e.g at 150 duration pressing the button once gets you 2 melee attacks so you have to press the button less ? does that make it more fun ? it is it more fun to just need to press the button once ?

4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Invisibility is there so you specifically don't get knocked on your ass or energy drained

last time I checked Acolytes can still beeline for you while you are in stealth, unless it changed there were passive energy drains in the game ? and null pulses effects that can pulse through a whole room from those guys who hold both arms up (forget the unit name) and knock you out of stealth, I am sure there are other things too, electricity traps, mag procs, it's not impossible.

4 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

somehow being complained about as spammy

because it is ! you have todo it every 40 seconds (after modding the nuts out of duration) most octavia players won't max duration, will just keep casting 3 and keep spamming crouch because it can be refreshed at any time, I don't know why you think running around air-teabagging is the pinnacle of amazing gameplay?

funny too I saw one Octavia main that hate it so much they replaced their #3 with Ivaras stealth arrow, when I questioned it I got a bunch of downvotes.

regardless of what you say, there is demand among players for a QOL push to stealth (at least Augment) for Octavia!

Edited September 2, 2023 by _Anise_

[(PSN)Ragology]

I casually turn invisible doing Parkour maneuvers. Octavia is smooth once you have a good beat going.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, _Anise_ said:

last time I checked Acolytes can still beeline for you while you are in stealth

Sometimes.  However if  I activate invisibility on other frames between the flicker and the spawn this doesn't happen.  Or  any time after they spawn.

I don't play Octavia so how applicable it is with her I don't know.

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

well stacking duration is not mandatory, but you think maybe they shouldn't do auto melee too ? if they can make the amount of melee attacks scale with something ? e.g at 150 duration pressing the button once gets you 2 melee attacks so you have to press the button less ? does that make it more fun ? it is it more fun to just need to press the button once ?

Well if this isn't a straw man if I've ever seen one.

Much like Auto Melee, however, the number of button presses you make is a choice (and will be with this option even more so). You can choose to spam, or you can choose to press it twice and forget it for a bit. So that's really not even the argument you think it is.

8 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

it's not impossible.

No, but you have the tools to make it rare.

8 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

because it is ! you have todo it every 40 seconds

Yeah, and this isn't even an argument in the first place.

Players press Ability buttons more often than that. They jump, roll, aim glide, Bullet Jump, slide and even manually reload more often than that.

I said in the original comment that, with a spread out song, you can accidentally refresh your invisibility just by moving normally, remember?

In Warframe doing an action (crouching twice) every 40 seconds is actually on the overly long scale of things. My Turbulence and Tornado on Zephyr don't last longer than that, so on longer-run missions I have to press both every 36 seconds. As well as pressing 2 to suck in enemies to my Tornado every... ooh, five to eight seconds?

You have to press buttons in a less-than-a-minute time frame? That's a complete non-starter in Warframe, my friend.

8 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

regardless of what you say, there is demand among players for a QOL push to stealth (at least Augment) for Octavia!

What's your point?

Of course there is.

There's a demand among some people that all Warframe powers should be on a cool-down, like Lavos, too and Energy itself should be removed. See how far that's getting them.

I'm not saying that there isn't a demand for it, or that you're wrong for having an opinion on this.

You put your thoughts on here, which is a Forum, or a place where your ideas get peer reviewed by people who are playing the same game as you. This is the peer review you're getting from me: the basis of this complaint, the basis for players demanding this, is from something you and they are massively over-inflating as a problem.

Would I complain if DE changed it the way you wanted?

No. I genuinely wouldn't. It doesn't affect me in that way.

Do I think DE are actually going to change it the way you want?

Also no, because I don't believe it's a problem the way you do, and I don't believe DE thinks it's a problem either.

[_Anise_]

I don't think it was a straw man, I wasn't make a fake argument just trying to gauge your thoughts on automelee with a bit of hypothetical scenario ?

anyway one of my reasons for wanting to "press" crouch less is severe wrist condition that causes pain, its manageable using warframe abilities that just need to be pressed now and again but having to press a single button 3 times (or more depending on the tune) in rapid succession over something like an hour gaming session becomes too much.

but it's whatever, one of the reasons why I don't play octavia even though the frame ability set draws me, in the meantime all I can do is ask for a QOL on this, I tend to avoid none automatic weapons and I also avoided melee for the same reasons but with auto melee maybe I will try it more

 

 

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Octavia's buff requires "active" input to get them.

Past a certain point, I stopped considering it a boosting ability aside from the free invis. The thing is, the other buffs are actually valuable. Free movespeed, free melee damage, free multishot, all of those are great stats to increase... but you gotta do the funny gimmick to get the buff.

The real QoL update to Octavia's 3 would be to not force your allies into looking like goofballs trying to get their buffs. Just, apply it to players that were in range of you when you casted, like any other standard buffing abilities in this game. Not everybody's feeling like playing dance dance revolution when getting jumped by half a dozen eximus units.

 

Chroma suffers from a similar issue, in having to build up stacks of Scorn and Fury instead of just providing the buffs right away. Except where Octavia's 3 is just tedious and will be ignored at worst, Chroma's 3 can be completely prevented from rising in numbers by being applied stacks upon stacks of Overguard.

If you ask me, both of those buffs need to just drop their gimmick altogether to fall in line with the rest of team buffing abilities.

[quxier]

17 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

On 2023-09-02 at 2:31 PM, _Anise_ said:

because it is ! you have todo it every 40 seconds

Yeah, and this isn't even an argument in the first place.

Players press Ability buttons more often than that. They jump, roll, aim glide, Bullet Jump, slide and even manually reload more often than that.

I said in the original comment that, with a spread out song, you can accidentally refresh your invisibility just by moving normally, remember?

In Warframe doing an action (crouching twice) every 40 seconds is actually on the overly long scale of things. My Turbulence and Tornado on Zephyr don't last longer than that, so on longer-run missions I have to press both every 36 seconds. As well as pressing 2 to suck in enemies to my Tornado every... ooh, five to eight seconds?

You have to press buttons in a less-than-a-minute time frame? That's a complete non-starter in Warframe, my friend.

I guess it's definition of "spammy" little different.

Before Xaku last changes, I've used rolling+disarming+procing void. I have even used amalgam mod that shortened rolls. It is (was?) possible to start casting ability and immediately roll. It was very hectic gameplay (many keypresses). However I didn't feel it was spammy at all.

On other hand Octavia's 3rd buffs feels like spam. I've tried some "easy" song from chat (Bite the dust, afair) and your linked song. It wasn't great. First you have to start 3rd. Then you have to start doing some weird motion. I've tried invisibility in normal missions. Sometimes it was easy to get the buff and sometimes I keep crouching/sliding and I couldn't get the buff. Sometimes I've tried to get the buff at the end of ability (20-30 seconds), wasting time. I've used to play Osu! (piano mode) a lot (not the greatest not the worst player) so I couldn't be THAT bad. Yet sometimes I fail. I've looked even at my gameplay and I don't "accidentally" turn it on - I just don't slide too much. Not to mention I wanted to attack enemies in meantime. 

18 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You put your thoughts on here, which is a Forum, or a place where your ideas get peer reviewed by people who are playing the same game as you. This is the peer review you're getting from me: the basis of this complaint, the basis for players demanding this, is from something you and they are massively over-inflating as a problem.

Maybe players don't over-inflate problems (at least not "massively"). They may just play item differently. When I've used to comment a lot about Xaku, I had lot of comments that "Xaku is good/powerful enough". Such players just comment from their perspective (gameplay style) and don't want to play differently, hence not seeing problems. Maybe that's the case here? I don't know. Every time I try Octavia I don't like doing her 3rd buffs.

 

18 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Do I think DE are actually going to change it the way you want?

Also no, because I don't believe it's a problem the way you do, and I don't believe DE thinks it's a problem either.

The problem with DE is that they sometimes do something that is weird/hard/problematic to do and don't want to change it. Look at Exodia nerf. They don't want you to spam it - that's reasonable. What you can do? Just put 1 time shoot like with Styanax/4th (we cannot recast 4th before touching ground). They haven't done it. They put double/bullet jump requirement as well.

Sometimes some stuffs feels very good (synergies, easy to use etc) and sometimes it's like they want to show something but they don't want you to use it.