Thoughts/input on new shield gating?

[Aruquae]

18 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

On call crew gives you an insane amount of free damage while you sacrifice nothing in the process, or energy pads that only cost a very negligible amount of resources but have no other downsides to using.

Yes, but the difference between these and the decaying dragon key, is that they are INTENDED to provide bonuses and help. The decaying dragon key was NEVER intended to be anything but a downside. The exchange for the mod that is made to actually help frames who want to shield gate, is intended, and is a different way to use an unintended (but I admit rather fun on frames like Banshee) gimmick.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Malikili
Type (between not gatemen) weird spell check

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

When you build a tank frame no one should get one shot at base levels on sp especially considering frames with no defense but 1 shield do not get one shot. Once again the bug was not fixed.

But do you have any actual proof of getting 1-shot at base level SP? Or some info on how you actually build your "tank"? Not really sure why you bring up shields, since if you are without shields you are quite literally not getting 1 shot, since at that point you are already taking other damage from something else. Plus there are only 2 frames currently that go ungated and only 1 that cannot replenish any form of gate on demand, and those are Inaros and Nidus along with Lavos. Everyone else can get that 1 shield or OG to never get 1 shot.

So it sounds more like you dont actually build for tanking, but call it a tank build if you die on entry level SP. I dont even die on entry level SP Mot, which also comes with increased damage output from being the highest Void tier.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

But do you have any actual proof of getting 1-shot at base level SP? Or some info on how you actually build your "tank"? Not really sure why you bring up shields, since if you are without shields you are quite literally not getting 1 shot, since at that point you are already taking other damage from something else. Plus there are only 2 frames currently that go ungated and only 1 that cannot replenish any form of gate on demand, and those are Inaros and Nidus along with Lavos. Everyone else can get that 1 shield or OG to never get 1 shot.

So it sounds more like you dont actually build for tanking, but call it a tank build if you die on entry level SP. I dont even die on entry level SP Mot, which also comes with increased damage output from being the highest Void tier.

It's widely reported but I'll try to record it. If you haven't encountered this, you must not be playing sp. Grendel with gourmand, triple umbral, and adaptation still gets one shot at base sp if he's out of shields. Feel free to actually try instead of just taking DEs word a face value. You might actually learn to think for yourself.

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

It's widely reported but I'll try to record it. If you haven't encountered this, you must not be playing sp. Grendel with gourmand, triple umbral, and adaptation still gets one shot at base sp if he's out of shields. Feel free to actually try instead of just taking DEs word a face value. You might actually learn to think for yourself.

I only play SP. I also play Grendel without adaptation and gourmand when I play him. Adaptation is more or less pointless if you worry about Blitz (which it seems like you do) because you'll never stack any Blast resistance reliably to counter their tremor. And most other units hit like wet noodles unless you wanna push deep, but since I tend to drop out somewhere between 40 minutes to 2 hours I've never found a use for adaptation. 

The stats on 4 of my Armor/HP frames are.

Grendel: 1300 armor (without food), 3745 HP (grace to sustain health)

Lavos: 1541 armor, 2580 HP (grace to sustain health)

Garuda: 2085 armor, 2400 HP (with blessing active) (gloom to sustain health)

Atlas: 2800 Armor (with rubble), 3000 HP (with Blessing) (rubble to sustain health)

Neither of them have any problems surviving or reaching/maintaining their stacks in any SP endless activity. And neither of those frames use adaptation.

Another thing to consider. Is your kill rate on par? If not that will lead to more punishment recieved from mobs since more of them are alive and can attack you.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

8 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

The key is still a free slot, the more i read from you the more i see that you just have a huge salad made from apples, lettuce, toluene, oranges, milk, vodka and may The Lotus knows what else in the mix that keeps you doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to deny that the free slot is because the key is an external item (not a mod, not an arcane, not an archon shard, not a focus school) used in a particular setup that involves all of the things mentioned + the key itself or saying stuff like "your energy bar becomes your health" like if it was Quick Thinking which (fun enough, QT had its own setup for invincibility when mixed with Rage back in the day which got it reworked into its current iteration and we had players loud against the change just like you) even though that's just because you turn energy into shields to reset gates to avoid taking HP damage and there's enough ways to recover energy available on every frame to make most frames SG viable after the 75% reduction of their base shields.

Here you go again with the whole free slot argument despite contradicting your last statement "What's actually going to encourage build diversity are the changes to how shields work." You do realize that the key being a supposed free slot (even tho thats not quite what it is and if it didnt exist shield gate build builds would use the same amount of mods if not even less) creates a ton of build diversity by enabling a bunch of builds that otherwise would not be viable. This is what I mean people just want to hate on the key just for the sake hating on it.   

Also btw theres even more healing sources than there or energy regen sources so for content where you are not being one hit in which the vast majority of the game and what most of the playerbase plays its actually way easier to stay alive via health tanking then it is via shield gating. But for whatever reason people only care about the upper limits, sield gating can handle lvl cap while health tanking cant meaning you have to play a certain way if you wanted to do that high lvl content which is how the game has always been. Back before shield gating you had to sit behind a frost bubble or volt shield the whole run or you had to be hard ccing everything in the tileset so nothing can shoot you back, shield gating with the key is actually the most diverse method when it comes to builds and playstlyes we have ever had yet for whatever reason its the method that has received the most hate amongst the community which makes absolutely no sense to me.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

8 hours ago, Malikili said:

Yes, but the difference between these and the decaying dragon key, is that they are INTENDED to provide bonuses and help. The decaying dragon key was NEVER intended to be anything but a downside.

And the negative stats on corrupted mods and rivens were also never meant to be anything other than a downside to merit the mod giving higher positive stats.

[Jarriaga]

9 hours ago, Malikili said:

Yes, but the difference between these and the decaying dragon key, is that they are INTENDED to provide bonuses and help. The decaying dragon key was NEVER intended to be anything but a downside. The exchange for the mod that is made to actually help frames who want to shield gate, is intended, and is a different way to use an unintended (but I admit rather fun on frames like Banshee) gimmick.

Let it go. We have 7 pages arguing with them about this. They don't accept intent or opportunity costs vs benefit as valid arguments, so this is moot. Nothing will be accepted by them as reasonable/consistent logic, falling back to false equivalencies as counterpoints.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Jarriaga

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

why do people constantly bring up level cap on the forums like it madders when it doesnt?

this is a buff to anyone not playing level cap, and the people playing level cap are a cesspool of ego stroking and opinions of said people should not even be valued because as stated by de multiple times, that that game doesn't revolve around them

there is no reason to go level cap and there never will be, im nto trying to be that guy and just flame people

the only people that see this a a nurf are those running dragon keys... its literately a buff to any frame with shields at 350 or higher witch cna be done with just 1 mod

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

21 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

And the negative stats on corrupted mods and rivens were also never meant to be anything other than a downside to merit the mod giving higher positive stats.

its not that they are downsides, its that the downside of the dragon key was literally meant to be the sacrifice for being able to even open the door the get the mods

just because u can make a negative into a positive doesn't mean DE thinks you should without also sacrificing a mod slot 

your argument is basically ur too lazy to change ur op build to the new op meta build and want DE to revert the changes

i have some choice words for people like you but i would get banned

its not about weather your right or wrong, its about weather or not DE thinks your build should be on ur gear or not and they have spoken

Edited October 12, 2023 by (PSN)Spider_Enigma

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

And the negative stats on corrupted mods and rivens were also never meant to be anything other than a downside

Just for curiosity's sake, why do you say that?   Anything specific they've said?

I could maybe see it with rivens originally, given that DE isn't fantastic about seeing stuff like this in advance.  It's at least slightly plausible they didn't think about something like -puncture being a positive thing, even though it sounds more unlikely to me than likely.

But Corrupted mods?  No way they didn't realize these would be used to nullify or even leverage their negatives, even though they didn't predict every specific interaction like Molecular Prime.

(There are other points I could make about this that I'm putting aside.   I feel like they've all been covered multiple times in this thread, and we don't need to rehash them or go through the rebuttals again.)

Edited October 13, 2023 by Tiltskillet

[----Legacy----]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Spider_Enigma said:

why do people constantly bring up level cap on the forums like it madders when it doesnt?

Personally, i bring it up as proof of how out the window is balance in warframe since players having enough power to fight back against level cap enemies means that there's no power ceiling for us (players) so no matter what DE throws at us, we can still take on it easily which seems like a reason why the game seems to stray away from warframe gameplay over time (Archwings, Railkek, Necramechs, Khal, Duviri, Warframe 1999 and may Teshin known what The Lotus has in store for the future of the game).

[(NSW)warfare3376]

Just now, (PSN)Spider_Enigma said:

its not that they are downsides, its that the downside of the dragon key was literally meant to be the sacrifice for being able to even open the door the get the mods

just because u can make a negative into a positive doesn't mean DE thinks you should without also sacrificing am mod slot 

your argument is basically ur too lazy to change ur op build to the new op meta build and want DE to revert the changes

i have some choice words for people like you but i would get banned

You seem to be mistaken, I actually am all for these new changes Ive even said so multiple times and not once did I ever say they changes should be reverted so dont know where youre getting that from. I also dont use the decaying key believe it or no, I find those build too tedious to use as you have to keep refreshing your shield gate every time you get hit because you have no other survivability. What I hate is all the unnecessary hatred towards the key when in reality the key+shield gate combo is actually only good for lvl cap type content that most of the playerbase dont bother with and is at best an alternative playstyle that requires more effort to use to be on par/better than other build options. Its like I said people just like to hate on thing that are popular purely because its popular and nothing and the key is no different.

 

34 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Just for curiosity's sake, why do you say that?   Anything specific they've said?

I could maybe see it with rivens originally, given that DE isn't fantastic about seeing stuff like this in advance.  It's at least slightly plausible they didn't think about something like -puncture being a positive thing, even though it sounds more unlikely to me than likely.

But Corrupted mods?  No way they didn't realize these would be used to nullify or even leverage their negatives, even though they didn't predict every specific interaction like Molecular Prime.

(There are other points I could make about this that I'm putting aside.   I feel like they've all been covered multiple times in this thread, and don't need to rehash them or read your rebuttals again.)

So  the thing about corrupted mods is they came out during a time when the stamina bar still existed and excal still had super jump, warframe was super primitive back then I feel its very possible they didnt realize the corrupt mods would be so easily gamed with newer and newer frame that got released just like how they never couldve realized the decaying key would be gamed 8 years later so why treat them differently is my whole point.

Oh and the reason what I said the way I dis is because that because thats the exact same argument used against the key even tho in reality its near impossible to tell what the true intent actually was. Like you say DE isnt great when it comes to seeing things like this in advance and that its possible they didnt think about how negs can be used as a positive. But since its impossible to tell what the actual thought process behind why certain mods/mechanics were designed we can only speculate based on how the mods/mechanics work in game.

So if we look at riven mods we can see that riven mods rivens that do not have a negative will have much lower values on the positive stats it has than a riven that does have a neg. And for corrupted mods they have way higher stats than normal mods but have a negative stat attached to them, I dont know about you but to me the way it seemed to be designed to be a tradeoff, youre giving up one stat for a stronger stat. And you look at how exactly the decaying key well that follows as such, while equipped lose 75% of your shields in exchange for being able to unlock vault doors in the derelict tileset, that also to me sounds like it too is designed to be a tradeoff. At least to me the key and rivens/corrupted mods look very similar in terms of design, the only real difference is that key is a gear item rather than a mod which apparently is a huge deal to people. To me that just comes off as pettiness, "your build is more mod slot efficient than mine how dare you" thats how it sounds, they dont care about anything else that goes into those shield gate builds like how they require more effort to use as you have to manage your gate on top of everything else or how if the key didnt exist you would use even less mods since it would be impossible to regen all your shields in one cast so you would have to settle with partial and play more campy. At the same time people want to bring down the shield gate builds because they are so much more efficient and scale better rather than bring up the other options, again it just sound very petty to me and is why I dislike the argument so much.

 

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Spider_Enigma said:

why do people constantly bring up level cap on the forums like it madders when it doesnt?

this is a buff to anyone not playing level cap, and the people playing level cap are a cesspool of ego stroking and opinions of said people should not even be valued because as stated by de multiple times, that that game doesn't revolve around them

there is no reason to go level cap and there never will be, im nto trying to be that guy and just flame people

the only people that see this a a nurf are those running dragon keys... its literately a buff to any frame with shields at 350 or higher witch cna be done with just 1 mod

It’s not uncommon for players to treat level cap as the measuring stick for balance.

Which is weird. Because the balance isn’t in level cap, it’s always been in the missions themselves and then we build according to whether we’re looking for that balance or not (and typically most players are not looking for balance, just as much min-maxing as they can get in order to throw balance out the window) while customising our gameplay. SP was actually introduced to provide an exact place to go where the concern isn’t whether there’s balance in the fight, but instead how hard someone can hit and how invincible someone can be and how easy they can make the fights through min-maxing (and is why shieldgate abuse builds, as bizarre as they are from a game design perspective, fit right into SP, the game mode where if someone’s asking “Am I hitting too hard and being too invincible and in general being completely unbalanced for the content”, they’re in the wrong part of the game)

Edited October 13, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[Aruquae]

12 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Let it go. We have 7 pages arguing with them about this. They don't accept intent or opportunity costs vs benefit as valid arguments, so this is moot. Nothing will be accepted by them as reasonable/consistent logic, falling back to false equivalencies as counterpoints.

Letting it go, haven’t actually read the full thread, but I realize we have dissolved into the typical back and fourth. This is why we can’t argue about civilized things. Then again I’m not sure Tenno are civilized what with war crimes, but we try.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2023-10-13 at 3:23 AM, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

And you look at how exactly the decaying key well that follows as such, while equipped lose 75% of your shields in exchange for being able to unlock vault doors in the derelict tileset, that also to me sounds like it too is designed to be a tradeoff.

I dont know why you are talking about negative stats as something beneficial in general when it isnt really what anyone has claimed to be the reason for the dragon key change. The reason the key gets turned into a mod is because the key is currently a Gear item. Using something negative as a positive isnt what DE wants to solve, what they want to solve is that it should be consistant.

Riven = mod slot

Corrupted mods = mod slot

Key = gear item

New corrupted mod = mod slot

The consistant part post patch is that all of the items now have an opportunity cost i.e takes up a mod slot and capacity. Something the key never did, since it occupies a infinite type of slot. It was effectively a 9th free mod slot.

And it isnt like Rivens have ever been intended to only have a negative impact with their negative, it has always been about min-max. -Zoom for instance, a very lucrative negative, but it isnt actually a positive negative for everyone. And -zoom specifically is also a stat DE deems as a positive negative when wanted in that way, hence why we have normal mods that simply reduce zoom aswell. And while -puncture is a positive negative for some builds, it still comes with a negative affect by reducing the overall damage of the weapon, it just makes statuses of other types more prominent. It is still a negative in the end since it impacts damage non the less, it isnt just a reduction in the status probability spread.

And corrupted mods dont have a strict negative intent tied to their negative. They aswell are about min-maxing by giving something up for something else, or getting something from them that you need while the other is a stat of unimportance. Like overextended, which have reversed stat effects on someone like Nova, where the reduced strength is the positive part in a Speedva build and the increased range is actually a massive negative for her due to her #1 far more likely losing charges. Or you can look at Baruuk, where Narrowminded has the opposite effect aswell since he can benefit from reduced ranged but the massive positive duration on the mod is a massive setback to him.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The consistant part post patch is that all of the items now have an opportunity cost i.e takes up a mod slot and capacity. Something the key never did, since it occupies a infinite type of slot. It was effectively a 9th free mod slot.

Except if you only equip the key and nothing else you get basically nothing out of it, you have to pair it with enough auger mods and brief respite to get any real use out of it and on top of that you also cant use any efficiency at all and in some cases you even needed neg efficiency in order to regen enough shields. Theres also the playstyle to go along with it which require much more active play to stay alive, you have to react to all incoming damage as youre sacrificing all other forms of survivability for shield gating so saying theres no opportunity cost associated with the key is just not true. And even if the key didnt exist and instead it actually a corrupted mod that reduced shields in exchange for some other stat like health or something I guarantee it would be treated the exact same as it is now.

[Stormhawkaro]

hace 5 horas, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

Except if you only equip the key and nothing else you get basically nothing out of it, you have to pair it with

This is the dumbest argument i've seen since the same can be said about pretty much any piece of gear in the game.

Do you even know what does "opportunity cost" mean? We have limited mod slots, we have limited mod capacity, we have limited arcane slots, we have limited shard slots, neither of said limitations apply to the dragon key since it's equipped in the gear wheel, where we have unlimited slots which means there's no opportunity cost to it.

Fwiw, i'm currently on the simulacrum, made a build using Brief Respite + an almost full Augur set (removed Accord since it increases shield and didn't equip Pact in secondary either); a single cast of any basic 25 energy power returns 77 shields; however, the key reduces shields to 75 so a single cast of any cheap power is enough to reset a full gate (for the record, a single cast of a 100 energy power adds 310 shields in this setup)

With Brief Respite alone a single cast of any power costing 100 energy gives 200 shields which may not be enough to go back to reset a full gate on a frame with 300 shields, however, a single cast of any power costing 50 energy returns 100 shields which is more than enough to go back to full shields on the same frame with 300 shields after reducing them to 75 by equipping the Decaying Dragon Key which cleared 3 mod slots from compared to the previous build while at it while keeping the energy required to a manageable level and works for frames with up to 400 base shields (usually 375 on rank 30 which is reduced to 94 w/Key,)

So yeah, i call nonsense in your whole point which has been taken down over and over again yet you stubbornly try to keep going by the sheer power of ignorance and stubborness.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Stormhawkaro

[(NSW)warfare3376]

39 minutes ago, Stormhawkaro said:

Do you even know what does "opportunity cost" mean? We have limited mod slots, we have limited mod capacity, we have limited arcane slots, we have limited shard slots, neither of said limitations apply to the dragon key since it's equipped in the gear wheel, where we have unlimited slots which means there's no opportunity cost to it.

The loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen:

So then then lets compare 2 options then. 1st option, standard health tank build with lets say gloom as the healing source, lets say for mods lets say its triple umbra plus adaptation  so minimum 4 slots used and a helminth abilty. 2nd option, shield gate build, for mods let say just brief respite and 1 auger and could use rolling guard but is optional and for a full shield gate lets say you need a 50 cost ability so thats minimum 2 slots and any 50 cost ability. So yes in terms of just mod slots shield gate builds use up way less but now lets who they perform in practice. With the health tank build you cast gloom once and as long as you are damaging enemies you will be healed back to full, to maintain 10 secs of gloom you will be spending at most 125 energy with neutral efficiency and duration and all you have to be doing is damaging enemies. With the shield gate build if you want tank through the same 10 secs like the health tank build you will cast you shield gate ability 8 times and spend a total of 400 energy, if youre using rolling guard its slightly less at about 6 casts and 300 energy but then it goes on cooldown for 7 secs. In conclusion if you spend more mod slots for survivability you sacrifice other mod options it results in a potentially weaker build that requires very low effort and resources to maintain and if you spend less mod slots on survivability to be able to slot in other alternative mods it results in a potentially stronger build that requires more effort and resources to maintain.

[Stormhawkaro]

hace 2 horas, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

The loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen

Nice!

hace 2 horas, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

So then then lets compare 2 options then. 1st option, standard health tank build with lets say gloom as the healing source, lets say for mods lets say its triple umbra plus adaptation  so minimum 4 slots used and a helminth abilty. 2nd option, shield gate build, for mods let say just brief respite and 1 auger and could use rolling guard but is optional and for a full shield gate lets say you need a 50 cost ability so thats minimum 2 slots and any 50 cost ability.

I think it's worth keeping in mind that warframes have only 10 mod slots, 2 of which are exclusive to a particular type (Aura and Exilus) so 4 mods slots is half the slots available for a build. These 4 mods also consume a minimum of 30 mod capacity (assuming 3 Umbra formas) which can go up to 60 points (extreme case assuming no umbra forma nor vazarin polarity in the frame).

Then you have Shield gate build on the other hand, which uses an Aura mod (benefits the whole team, doesn't consume mod capacity but increases it instead) and a single Augur mod which can provide strength, duration or range (useful stats for any frame) on top of converting part of the energy spent into shields.

To keep in mind:

> You need all 3 Umbral mods to get the most out of them in these builds; a single mod from the Augur set is enough for shield gating.

> All mods in the Umbral set are warframe mods; Augur set has Augur Pact, a secondary mod that allows you to use your secondary to increase energy to shields conversion and clear a mod slot in the warframe (leaving you with all 8 mods and 74 mod capacity available to play with your build)

> Each umbral mod consumes 16 mod capacity unless equipped in a polarized slot, where it will consume 8 mod points instead; Augur set mods consume 9 mod points which is reduced to 5 when in a polarized slot.

> Polarizing slots for the Umbral set means you're committing to a certain kind of build since there's no other warframe mods with Umbra polarity; Augur set mods have common polarities.

> Umbra formas are scarce, so using them comes with its own oportunity cost; Augur set mods use common polarities so no commitment required due to how common are formas. 

Gloom is just too cheap to keep up for its effect and having it available as a helminth ability without any tweak makes it obnoxious; at least the helminth version should be tweaked. Not gonna comment on the matter even though locking the player into a single helminth choice for your example is making yourself a disservice since any power with 50 energy cost works for a shield gate build, there's variety of those to choose from and some frames have decent ones which can't be infused to others.

hace 2 horas, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

So yes in terms of just mod slots shield gate builds use up way less but now lets who they perform in practice. With the health tank build you cast gloom once and as long as you are damaging enemies you will be healed back to full, to maintain 10 secs of gloom you will be spending at most 125 energy with neutral efficiency and duration and all you have to be doing is damaging enemies. With the shield gate build if you want tank through the same 10 secs like the health tank build you will cast you shield gate ability 8 times and spend a total of 400 energy, if youre using rolling guard its slightly less at about 6 casts and 300 energy but then it goes on cooldown for 7 secs.

You're forgetting a key detail: 

Shield gate builds exist because at levels high enough, player HP and Armor don't matter, so even if gloom keeps enemies slow and your HP maxed as long as you deal damage, there comes a ppikt where a single stray bullet os enough to delete a player's HP bar and making passive gameplay impossible nonetheless while with shield gating your shields get depleted, you cast a power (in a game where you want to spam powers and the borked energy economy allows you to do it) and reset the invulnerability timer anyways.

Yes, you'll have less EHP, but it doesn't matter when you will spend most of the time invulnerable to damage anyways and can focus practically your whole build to maximize warframe powers instead.

That said, reducing EHP to increase durability by exploiting a borked implementation of a mechanic meant to simply prevent the player from getting insta-killed is counterintuitive, even more when the item used for said purpose is an outsider with its own free slot.

PS: If it was up to me, i'd have just made the key remove shield gating entirely while equipped on top of its shield reduction and call it a fix or something, idk.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

12 minutes ago, Stormhawkaro said:

To keep in mind:

> You need all 3 Umbral mods to get the most out of them in these builds; a single mod from the Augur set is enough for shield gating.

> All mods in the Umbral set are warframe mods; Augur set has Augur Pact, a secondary mod that allows you to use your secondary to increase energy to shields conversion and clear a mod slot in the warframe (leaving you with all 8 mods and 74 mod capacity available to play with your build)

> Each umbral mod consumes 16 mod capacity unless equipped in a polarized slot, where it will consume 8 mod points instead; Augur set mods consume 9 mod points which is reduced to 5 when in a polarized slot.

> Polarizing slots for the Umbral set means you're committing to a certain kind of build since there's no other warframe mods with Umbra polarity; Augur set mods have common polarities.

> Umbra formas are scarce, so using them comes with its own oportunity cost; Augur set mods use common polarities so no commitment required due to how common are formas. 

The umbral example was a bit extreme but I used that example anyway to make it a point of yes shield gate builds are way cheaper than health tank builds. I also think its worth mentioning that while it is true the umbral set is very costly in terms of slots and capacity, but the amount of stats you get out of doing is quite significant like we're talking 330% more health, 41% more strength and 82.5% more armor. That said theres also other alternatives to triple umbra such as stitching umbral fiber for arcane guardian or switch out vitality for arcane blessing, archon shards are another options and in terms of shard vs mod ratio the health and armor shard give more value than 10/15% more strength or duration.

And yea even with all the other alternatives health tanking will still take up more mod slots than shield gate builds and even with the new catalyzing shields mod health tank builds will still require more slots. So heres a question, why is it a bad thing that shield gate builds require so much less space, why try to bring down shield gate builds rather than bring up health tank builds especially considering that health tank builds are deemed unviable for high lvl endurance already?

51 minutes ago, Stormhawkaro said:

Gloom is just too cheap to keep up for its effect and having it available as a helminth ability without any tweak makes it obnoxious; at least the helminth version should be tweaked. Not gonna comment on the matter even though locking the player into a single helminth choice for your example is making yourself a disservice since any power with 50 energy cost works for a shield gate build, there's variety of those to choose from and some frames have decent ones which can't be infused to others.

I choose gloom as an example because it too is a bit on the extreme side since it requires using a specific helminth choice to further insinuate that health tank build do in fact need more investment. Theres is a ton of other healing sources tho like magus elevate/repair, life stike, panzer with hunter recovery, sentinel with medi-ray, ect..

 

1 hour ago, Stormhawkaro said:

You're forgetting a key detail: 

Shield gate builds exist because at levels high enough, player HP and Armor don't matter, so even if gloom keeps enemies slow and your HP maxed as long as you deal damage, there comes a ppikt where a single stray bullet os enough to delete a player's HP bar and making passive gameplay impossible nonetheless while with shield gating your shields get depleted, you cast a power (in a game where you want to spam powers and the borked energy economy allows you to do it) and reset the invulnerability timer anyways.

Also I didnt forget I just left that out intentionally as its complexly irrelevant. The majority of the playerbase does not ever get to that point where a single stray bullet will 1 hit them no matter what.  DE has also said that they will never design content around those lvls either so its completely pointless discussing it. And also this has always been the case for health and armor, health tank build have never once been viable in those crazy high lvl runs and you have always had to completely bypass enemy damage in some way whether that be via frost bubble or volt shield which was the strat back in the day or use invisibility.

[SneakyErvin]

15 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Except if you only equip the key and nothing else you get basically nothing out of it, you have to pair it with enough auger mods and brief respite to get any real use out of it and on top of that you also cant use any efficiency at all and in some cases you even needed neg efficiency in order to regen enough shields. Theres also the playstyle to go along with it which require much more active play to stay alive, you have to react to all incoming damage as youre sacrificing all other forms of survivability for shield gating so saying theres no opportunity cost associated with the key is just not true. And even if the key didnt exist and instead it actually a corrupted mod that reduced shields in exchange for some other stat like health or something I guarantee it would be treated the exact same as it is now.

Flawed reasoning since it can be applied to all modding. First of, the key does not enable the use of shield gating, that is an innate system in the game. So your modding to use the shield gate system works on its own already. The key is a free slot that comes from gear that improves the modding that already works on its own to keep you from getting one-shot, which is the whole reason shield gate was added in the first place. Which means that the key itself is not an enabler that needs to be modded around, it is in itself an extra mod that further improves the modding you already invest in eitherway to make use of the 1HK prevention of the system itself.

So there is zero opportunity cost tied to the key since the system already comes for free to all frames with shields and any frame with energy can utilize energy-to-shield mods to quickly regain the 1HK prevention of the system with or without the key. Ontop of that the key occupies a slot that doesnt require you to give something else up, so again, no opportunity cost in the key. The upcoming mod however has an opportunity cost, it competes with another mod since the effect now comes from a mod slot. 

And how playstyle has to do with anything to justify a free slot to improve a build I have no clue about. There is no key that improves a health+armor playstyle, so why should there be for a style focused fully on gating? And on most frames you dont actually have to sacrifice all other forms of TTL just because you use the key, since most frames have no downside to using brief respite and augur mods in their builds eitherway. People simply sacrifice all other forms of TTL improvements because you dont need them when you use the key together with shield gate.

[Stormhawkaro]

hace 8 horas, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

The umbral example was a bit extreme but I used that example anyway to make it a point of yes shield gate builds are way cheaper than health tank builds. I also think its worth mentioning that while it is true the umbral set is very costly in terms of slots and capacity, but the amount of stats you get out of doing is quite significant like we're talking 330% more health, 41% more strength and 82.5% more armor. That said theres also other alternatives to triple umbra such as stitching umbral fiber for arcane guardian or switch out vitality for arcane blessing, archon shards are another options and in terms of shard vs mod ratio the health and armor shard give more value than 10/15% more strength or duration.

I'm sure i already mentioned that -at levels high enough- enemies turn our HP bars into a binary value no matter how big it is so that 330% more health and 82.5% more armor becomes meaningless, we can still die to a stray bullet. Additional strength is meaningless if you can't survive.

Yet shield gating builds can go without any sort of EHP boost since these exploit the invulnerability time from shield gates so can just slap Arcane Energize (desired in a game where you want to keep spamming powers with the added benefit of turning energy to shields) along whatever other arcane you want in the setup while all of your shards can focus on powers or utility instead, reason why that argument doesn't take flight.

 

hace 8 horas, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

And yea even with all the other alternatives health tanking will still take up more mod slots than shield gate builds and even with the new catalyzing shields mod health tank builds will still require more slots. So heres a question, why is it a bad thing that shield gate builds require so much less space, why try to bring down shield gate builds rather than bring up health tank builds especially considering that health tank builds are deemed unviable for high lvl endurance already?

Because, as mentioned by someone else, the game isn't designed around high level; the devs have pointed that they want warframe to be a bite sized casual game where players can jump in and out of quickly at any time; new content they develop isn't too hard because of this reason which keeps the same line, but then people like you ask for players to be buffed around a content we aren't even meant to defeat and just happens due to the nature of endurance runs.

Why would we need to become even stronger when we can not only defeat level cap enemies, but also survive against them?

hace 8 horas, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

Also I didnt forget I just left that out intentionally as its complexly irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant, it's actually a key detail since, in the end, you're "giving up the possibility to take a weaker build over a more powerful one" based on how you defined opportunity cost before jumping into the example. "Giving up a downgrade to.take a straight upgrade" doesn't sound like opportunity cost in the slightest.

hace 8 horas, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

The majority of the playerbase does not ever get to that point where a single stray bullet will 1 hit them no matter what.

What the playerbase does is actually irrelevant.

hace 8 horas, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

DE has also said that they will never design content around those lvls either so its completely pointless discussing it

Exactly, something we agree with so no reason to keep builds able to go places where the devs don't want us to be able to go, this includes the counterintuitive shield gating exploit with decaying dragon key where reeucing your survivability keeps you invulnerable to damage.

hace 3 horas, SneakyErvin dijo:

People simply sacrifice all other forms of TTL improvements because you dont need them when you use the key together with shield gate.

Exactly this: removing the enemy capability to deal damage removes risk from gameplay, turning enemies into nothing but walking crates to break and loot which become harder to open over time.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Stormhawkaro

[(NSW)warfare3376]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Flawed reasoning since it can be applied to all modding. First of, the key does not enable the use of shield gating, that is an innate system in the game. So your modding to use the shield gate system works on its own already. The key is a free slot that comes from gear that improves the modding that already works on its own to keep you from getting one-shot, which is the whole reason shield gate was added in the first place. Which means that the key itself is not an enabler that needs to be modded around, it is in itself an extra mod that further improves the modding you already invest in eitherway to make use of the 1HK prevention of the system itself.

So the further improvements that youre referring to is the speed increase in which you get your full shield gate back. Theres a reason why getting back all your shields in 1 cast is so important rather than double casting or using the partial gate, because of how numerous enemies are and how much damage they can dish out with most having high fire rate weapons you need to be able to recover just as quickly otherwise you stand no chance. What the key does is let you play out in the open since it allows you to keep up with enemy damage, without it you would have to camp a corner the whole run like the old days. The key has also created much more diversity in terms of both frame usage and build crafting regardless if you choose to use it or not which I see as quite a good thing, Im not sure how many people remember what it was like before shield gating but back then a lot of the squishier frames just didnt get used.

This is why I dislike arguments against the key theres too much focus on how much more mod slot efficient and outright "better" shield gate builds are in comparison to the other options but dont think about why that it is. For 99% of the games content shield gate builds are actually on par with the other options in terms of survivability due to the much higher maintenance required from those build, its the 1% people do look at tho and see shield gate as the only viable option then base all comparisons off of that. its not that shield gate builds arent so better, its that the other options are so much worse and have always been unviable. So what I dont understand are people so adamant about bringing shield gate builds down to the lvl of other options rather than bring the other options up. And changing the key to a mod slot btw will still have shield gate builds use up less mod slots than the alternatives, so the other alternatives will still be so much worse and just as unviable while some shield gate builds will be slightly inconvenienced and still be "mandatory" for higher lvls, nobody wins.

4 hours ago, Stormhawkaro said:

Because, as mentioned by someone else, the game isn't designed around high level; the devs have pointed that they want warframe to be a bite sized casual game where players can jump in and out of quickly at any time; new content they develop isn't too hard because of this reason which keeps the same line, but then people like you ask for players to be buffed around a content we aren't even meant to defeat and just happens due to the nature of endurance runs.

Why would we need to become even stronger when we can not only defeat level cap enemies, but also survive against them?

Because despite that people do high lvl endurance/lvl cap anyway, thats why stuff like shield gating and steel path was added in the 1st place. If you want to play the game casually thats perfectly fine and you rest assured you will always be able to play the game casually, but the gatekeeping not so much. If you arent meant to defeat crazy high lvl/lvl cap enemies than dont use that as the benchmark. Shield gating is a completely optional playstyle and you do not need it for the majority of the content, it takes up more recourses and takes more effort to use for very similar effects to other options so dont use it as a benchmark.

 

4 hours ago, Stormhawkaro said:

I'm sure i already mentioned that -at levels high enough- enemies turn our HP bars into a binary value no matter how big it is so that 330% more health and 82.5% more armor becomes meaningless, we can still die to a stray bullet. Additional strength is meaningless if you can't survive.

Again most players dont go that high and as said by you youre not supposed to anyway. And why hold back any option that can go higher when its completely optional and get nothing extra by doing so.

 

4 hours ago, Stormhawkaro said:

It's not irrelevant, it's actually a key detail since, in the end, you're "giving up the possibility to take a weaker build over a more powerful one" based on how you defined opportunity cost before jumping into the example. "Giving up a downgrade to.take a straight upgrade" doesn't sound like opportunity cost in the slightest.

See again youre only comparing the 2 builds on the bases that 1 of the builds requires far fewer mods than the other and ignore everything else. For shield gate builds you are saving a lot of mod space but the cost for doing so is that the build will now take more effort and resources to use, for health tanking the cost is it requires more mods but the build will now take less effort and resources to use. Youre also using the lvl cap benchmark where health tank builds stand no chance, so why not bring health tanking up to that benchmark then instead of bringing shield gate down or Idk just not use the benchmark at all?

[Stormhawkaro]

hace 3 horas, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

Because despite that people do high lvl endurance/lvl cap anyway, thats why stuff like shield gating and steel path was added in the 1st place.

Steel Path was added as a hard mode, buffing players will make it easier and even more if it's used as the measure stick. Just like Nightmare missions were endgame at some point before powercreep made them trivial and the same happened later to Sorties, Arbitrations, and seems to be slowly happening to SP so i wouldn't be surprised to eventually see going full cycle once again. 

hace 3 horas, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

If you want to play the game casually thats perfectly fine and you rest assured you will always be able to play the game casually, but the gatekeeping not so much.

When did asking for exploits (such as Decaying Dragon Key) to be fixed become "gatekeeping"? 

hace 3 horas, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

If you arent meant to defeat crazy high lvl/lvl cap enemies than dont use that as the benchmark.

Trying to impose others how to play? Of course if i'm able to take down SP lvl500 enemies or whatever with my lato (extreme case) i'll see no reason to mod it in a way where it struggles in normal starmap earth.

hace 3 horas, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

Shield gating is a completely optional playstyle and you do not need it for the majority of the content, it takes up more recourses and takes more effort to use for very similar effects to other options so dont use it as a benchmark.

It takes less resources in terms of setup, and the "effort" you talk about is just spamming powers, something you want to be doing anyways in non-shield gating builds as well with the only difference that you're recycling energy into shields while using a free slot to downgrade your shields to reset gates faster.

hace 3 horas, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

Again most players dont go that high and as said by you youre not supposed to anyway. And why hold back any option that can go higher when its completely optional and get nothing extra by doing so.

Because any new content isn't developed around such levels, making it trivial right on release. DE loves it when players trivialize content, you know?

hace 3 horas, (NSW)warfare3376 dijo:

See again youre only comparing the 2 builds on the bases that 1 of the builds requires far fewer mods than the other and ignore everything else. For shield gate builds you are saving a lot of mod space but the cost for doing so is that the build will now take more effort and resources to use.

That's nonsense and blatantly downplaying the build since, as pointed above, shield gating builds only recycle the used energy into shields and the Dragon Key in the free slot make the process a lot easier since casting pretty much any power costing 50 energy fills shields in a game where you want to be spamming your powers and burning energy nonetheless.

[----Legacy----]

3 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Youre also using the lvl cap benchmark where health tank builds stand no chance, so why not bring health tanking up to that benchmark then instead of bringing shield gate down or Idk just not use the benchmark at all?

That's been explained time and time again so guess you're either not paying attention (reason why you only repeat the same points after these are taken down) or conveniently omit the comments (or parts of these) you dislike in order to keep repeating yourself.

I'd normally give the benefot of doubt and think positively but, seeing how you ask to not use a benchmark just because it goes against your point makes me think of the latter.