Not enough loadouts

[infinitedrift]

There are nowhere near enough loadouts given the number of weapons, Warframes, companions, appearances, operator configurations, landing crafts, air support, etc.

At legendary 2, with all purchasable load out slots unlocked, I only have 21 load out slots.  That's not enough.  It really is not enough.  At a minimum there should be enough load out slots to have a loadout for each Warframe.  Some Warframes though, like Nova, could actually use more than one loadout;  one for slow and one for speed.  Likewise, there are A, B, and C configurations for warframes that change everything from mod configuration to Helminth abilities.

 

Load outs need overhauled too.  They should include:

*air support

*landing craft

*landing craft appearance

*operator appearance and gear

 

Maybe I am missing some information, but it doesn't make sense to me to limit players to so few load outs with so MANY possible combinations of weapons and tools.  Is it a technical issue?

 

[Tiltskillet]

I mean, ➕1️⃣ . More loadouts please.  But...

12 minutes ago, infinitedrift said:

Maybe I am missing some information, but it doesn't make sense to me to limit players to so few load outs with so MANY possible combinations of weapons and tools.  Is it a technical issue?

I've always presumed that if they could give us 5x or 10x as many loadouts or more, and charge us for the privilege, that there must be a very good technical reason for -not- doing so. It's not even like the riven situation, where one could argue there could be a player economy incentive for DE to keep slots limited, in addition to whatever database issues there are.

[(XBOX)XYZ RUMBEL]

Agree, but DE doesn't care cause most players have one or two main frames with one loadout slot. No wonder that many players hate circuit 🤤😝😂

[(NSW)Greybones]

I barely use even one loadout slot because, as mentioned, there’s so many combinations that it’s either a nightmare to keep them updated, or they so rarely see use because I’m using something else that they might as well not have been made in the first place…

I got like, one loadout. And it gets randomised through the “Randomise Loadout” button. I tried keeping multiple, but they ended up being more hassle than they were worth when I wanted to change something where a simple swapping of mods or equipment around would suffice so much easier and faster; I probably got some leftovers, but I wouldn't for the life of me be able to remember why I was so specific

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

We have enough loadout slots. Those that want more hate scrolling through the menu looking for what they want to use at the moment. I think it's time for DE to shrink the boxes display so 5 items per line can fit.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Ooh! It's Forum Bingo this week!

Okay, so, this is the answer from the Devs on this question:

'It's not even on the table for discussion, we will continue to dole out Loadout Slots as we have been until our internal metrics confirm that it's desirable to add more than that.'

This was later confirmed (this year) by Rebecca pointing out that with the new MR level that future gear will unlock, there will then be enough Loadouts to hold one for every Warframe in the game. Not unlimited, but enough for each of your frames to have a favourite loadout you can come back to.

No amount of Forum posts will persuade them, only actual data of enough people buying them and consistently using them, across enough of the player base.

So, a little longer explanation;

DE's servers cost money based on information access, not based on storage. For every Loadout you store, even ones you haven't filled with anything, that's lines and lines of data for the Warframe, colours, cosmetics, colours on the cosmetics, idle animation and so on, then the weapons, then the companion, then... more. It's as much data as some games make you actually pay for as a second character.

For every Loadout they add, universally, to the list, that's an exponential amount of data access, because it's accessed every time you open your Arsenal and every time you close your Arsenal. Every time. For every player. On a game that has, on Steam, up to around 30k and 40k active users at once over the course of a day. Not total, just concurrent. Even if those were measured in only twenty or thirty bytes of data, you have to multiply that for every access, for every player, for the entire day. That mounts up, my friend, that costs money.

And DE have a lot of money to spend, but they would rather put that money into the things that are actually earning them money, like more Warframes, Cosmetics, Quests, Music and Events.

As the above answer to the question says; they're not changing it because not enough people are using it. Why put in more for the vast, vast minority, when it would cost them money, and nobody else is using that feature the way you are?

[infinitedrift]

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

For every Loadout they add, universally, to the list, that's an exponential amount of data access, because it's accessed every time you open your Arsenal and every time you close your Arsenal. Every time. For every player. On a game that has, on Steam, up to around 30k and 40k active users at once over the course of a day. Not total, just concurrent. Even if those were measured in only twenty or thirty bytes of data, you have to multiply that for every access, for every player, for the entire day. That mounts up, my friend, that costs money.

And DE have a lot of money to spend, but they would rather put that money into the things that are actually earning them money, like more Warframes, Cosmetics, Quests, Music and Events.

As the above answer to the question says; they're not changing it because not enough people are using it. Why put in more for the vast, vast minority, when it would cost them money, and nobody else is using that feature the way you are?

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense.  Loadout information does not have to be stored on their company servers.  A loadout can simply tell what already existing information should be loaded up, and that information can be stored on each individual computer as part of the game files.  Not buying the "It uses too much data storage" argument.  If it does, then it's ridiculous and needs to change.  There is zero reason for every player in the game's loadouts to be stored on a central mainframe server computer.  

Edited October 7, 2023 by infinitedrift

[Birdframe_Prime]

14 hours ago, infinitedrift said:

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense.  Loadout information does not have to be stored on their company servers.

According to DE it does and is.

The reason it's not stored locally is specifically because Warframe originally had a code-injection problem, where the clients could tell the servers what was in their inventory. So the only way to actually check that would be to store a backup copy on server-side in the first place, which would use more data to cross-check than it would to just confirm the upload/download of that data.

Besides, you missed the point:

14 hours ago, infinitedrift said:

"It uses too much data storage" argument.

It's not storage.

It's ACCESS. The act of downloading and uploading the information.

That's what servers for games are charged on.

So it wouldn't matter if it was client side or server side, you would still open the loadouts and save the loadouts every time you open the Arsenal, transferring that data to the Server each time for it to back up your game state in case your local copy got in any way corrupted or removed.

That's the bit that costs money.

Don't try to tell me it's nonsense, the third biggest cost to a game company, any game company that has any form of cloud saving, beyond Advertising and Licensing, is server data access.

Not storage. They could be storing all of that data and it costs them less than a dollar per thousand players. But because it's charged on the ACCESS, you multiply the data transfer by every player, multiplied by every time that data is downloaded or uploaded.

And. That. Is what. Costs. Money.

If you didn't know how this works, now you do.

[infinitedrift]

15 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

According to DE it does and is.

The reason it's not stored locally is specifically because Warframe originally had a code-injection problem, where the clients could tell the servers what was in their inventory. So the only way to actually check that would be to store a backup copy on server-side in the first place, which would use more data to cross-check than it would to just confirm the upload/download of that data.

Besides, you missed the point:

It's not storage.

It's ACCESS. The act of downloading and uploading the information.

That's what servers for games are charged on.

So it wouldn't matter if it was client side or server side, you would still open the loadouts and save the loadouts every time you open the Arsenal, transferring that data to the Server each time for it to back up your game state in case your local copy got in any way corrupted or removed.

That's the bit that costs money.

Don't try to tell me it's nonsense, the third biggest cost to a game company, any game company that has any form of cloud saving, beyond Advertising and Licensing, is server data access.

Not storage. They could be storing all of that data and it costs them less than a dollar per thousand players. But because it's charged on the ACCESS, you multiply the data transfer by every player, multiplied by every time that data is downloaded or uploaded.

And. That. Is what. Costs. Money.

If you didn't know how this works, now you do.

Would you be so kind as to direct me to where DE says that loadout information is stored on their servers?  No offense, but I am not inclined to just believe you.  As for "access", no I really don't see how it is asking more to access items that already exist even if they are stored on their servers.  When a player switches from any loadout, even if they had only two loadouts, it would seem no different than 10,000 if it is only doing one combination at a time.  Sorry, still seems like nonsense to me.  If a player simply switches back and forth between two loadouts causing access, I don't see the difference as long as it is switching one loadout at a time. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

14 hours ago, infinitedrift said:

Would you be so kind as to direct me to where DE says that loadout information is stored on their servers?  No offense, but I am not inclined to just believe you.

Don't need to, it's not stored locally, you can check. And it was back around 2012-13 when they had the problem with code injection, so it hasn't been local for about that much time.

14 hours ago, infinitedrift said:

Sorry, still seems like nonsense to me.

Then, my friend, you aren't understanding the basics of data transfer and game server access.

Let's make this clear (and, no, I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm trying to explain how this works):

1. You press X to open the Arsenal.

2. That interaction is sent to DE's server to request the data on what is in your Arsenal and what to display on each 'page' of your arsenal.

This data is lists, just a data set like a spreadsheet. The database contains, under your account, all potential items you could have with a yes/no marker on them as to whether you have access to them. It then contains a list for your currently equipped gear that contains the frame, the colours, the armour, syandana, weapons, skins, colours for all of those, equipped mods, the other modding tabs you have and which one you're currently using, and so on. Lots of little lines of code with marker to select which item is in there. After that, it has that same list again, but one for each loadout. So if you have seven Loadouts, it will list each of them, even if some of those Loadouts are empty, it returns a list that says all of those things, just tagged with whatever code is for 'not equipped'.

Even if the list contains 'not equipped', it's still a line in the code that has to be read.

3. The server responds by sending you that data, downloading it to your local computer. So you are downloading those lists. Maybe they only total up to 1.2KB for the entire lot, absolutely nothing in terms of your usual computer these days. Even on the slowest connection, you'll barely notice if there's a little delay before it displays the content.

4. You browse your Arsenal, maybe make changes, maybe not.

5. You press Exit to leave your Arsenal.

6. Your computer sends back all the lists to the server, whether they have been updated or not, to confirm any changes you may or may not have made. Uploading that data to the servers.

That's what Access is. It's the uploading and downloading of the data that happens with every single interaction you make with Warframe that isn't just shooting an enemy in the face. Load into a relay? Data access. Open your Mod bench? Data access.

And it costs money.

DE have outright told us this on the DevStream, multiple times and more recently (only like the one before TennoCon, or the one before that) re-iterated that Loadouts are not going to be doled out faster than they currently are.

It's their words, I'm just telling you them.

[Qriist]

On 2023-10-07 at 4:01 PM, infinitedrift said:

Loadout information does not have to be stored on their company servers.  A loadout can simply tell what already existing information should be loaded up, and that information can be stored on each individual computer as part of the game files. 

You'd fit right in amongst Diablo III's PS3 hacked item users.

 

On 2023-10-08 at 6:52 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

It's ACCESS. The act of downloading and uploading the information.

That's what servers for games are charged on.

Birdframe is correct here. This is, hands down, one of the single greatest costs that all companies have to deal with. Depending on your particular business model, it may be the greatest cost. I'd imagine that a game like Warframe (featuring hundreds of base items with a virtually unquantifiable number of configurations, not to mention the high speed gameplay itself) would incur a huge traffic overhead.

 

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

2. That interaction is sent to DE's server to request the data on what is in your Arsenal and what to display on each 'page' of your arsenal.

This data is lists, just a data set like a spreadsheet. The database contains, under your account, all potential items you could have with a yes/no marker on them as to whether you have access to them. It then contains a list for your currently equipped gear that contains the frame, the colours, the armour, syandana, weapons, skins, colours for all of those, equipped mods, the other modding tabs you have and which one you're currently using, and so on. Lots of little lines of code with marker to select which item is in there. After that, it has that same list again, but one for each loadout. So if you have seven Loadouts, it will list each of them, even if some of those Loadouts are empty, it returns a list that says all of those things, just tagged with whatever code is for 'not equipped'.

Even if the list contains 'not equipped', it's still a line in the code that has to be read.

3. The server responds by sending you that data, downloading it to your local computer. So you are downloading those lists. Maybe they only total up to 1.2KB for the entire lot, absolutely nothing in terms of your usual computer these days. Even on the slowest connection, you'll barely notice if there's a little delay before it displays the content.

I agree with the general theory of your access flowchart. You're probably pretty close, but there's almost certainly some amount of local in-memory databasing going on. If not, there should be.

 

3 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

6. Your computer sends back all the lists to the server, whether they have been updated or not, to confirm any changes you may or may not have made. Uploading that data to the servers.

This part is probably wrong. It's almost certainly just a delta that's sent upstream. 

[BroDutt]

 

On 2023-10-09 at 10:29 AM, infinitedrift said:

As for "access", no I really don't see how it is asking more to access items that already exist even if they are stored on their servers.  When a player switches from any loadout, even if they had only two loadouts, it would seem no different than 10,000 if it is only doing one combination at a time.  Sorry, still seems like nonsense to me. 

Have you ever experienced lag when you access your arsenal or upgrade menu? Cause that's what happened. When accessing your arsenal or upgrade, you pull out data from their server. And even you have the best internet connection, their server would take time when it's reading/saving the data from ANY PLAYER that try to access it. 

On 2023-10-09 at 10:29 AM, infinitedrift said:

If a player simply switches back and forth between two loadouts causing access, I don't see the difference as long as it is switching one loadout at a time. 

You're not only access the ONE loadout but ALL of the loadout. That's how a game data works. Remember the issue from Baldur's Gate 3 save file? Or somehow Starfield save file became larger? And those are Single Player game that store their data on your computer.

Edited October 10, 2023 by BroDutt

[Packetdancer]

On 2023-10-07 at 1:01 PM, infinitedrift said:

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense.  Loadout information does not have to be stored on their company servers.

They do if you want to be able to log in from more than one machine and have your loadouts still present; I can change a loadout on the desktop and then have the updated one visible on the Steam Deck. It'll be even more crucial when we have cross-save, where you'd want changes to a loadout on your PC to carry over to your PS5 and vice-versa.

Even without the "logging in from different places", one only need look at what happens in FFXIV when someone reinstalls the game and forgot to do the semi-janky "manual upload your settings to server as a backup" and loses all their hotbars and gearsets and has Great Sadness as they have to recreate everything from scratch.

[infinitedrift]

Ok, thank you all for explaining this to me politely, and in a detailed way that I can understand it.  Maybe my desire for more loadouts is just clouding my judgement.  Also it's true that I don't really understand everything about gaming companies, despite having programmed a game myself and landing a contract on it.