Acolyte ability that teleports you to them needs to be fixed

[Hexerin]

There's nothing fun or engaging about being unable to move more than 1m away from them. This nonsense yanks you instantly, no transition or other effect to make it not horrendously jarring (and sometimes nauseating, depending on what frame you're running). Additionally, it has no line of sight restriction, the Acolyte will teleport you through any number and thickness of terrain between itself and you.

A few things need to be done to make this not absolutely horrid:

• There needs to be a cooldown implemented on it.
  • Needs to be significant, like at least 15-20 seconds, so that the player is able to actually play the #*!%ing game between teleports.
• There needs to be a transition effect implemented on it.
  • Like mentioned above, it's currently instant. This is extremely jarring, and sometimes actually nauseating.
  • I recommend something similar to Protea's Temporal Anchor rewind. It's a very thematic effect for her, but it accomplishes a similar task (brings you to another location) so something along similar lines would fit for the Acolyte teleport.
• There needs to be a line of sight restriction imposed on it.
  • Zero counterplay is bad gameplay design. Period.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Hexerin

[Pizzarugi]

These limitations should also apply to the stalker.

[Hexerin]

7 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

These limitations should also apply to the stalker.

I haven't encountered Stalker teleporting me to him, does he also do so? Agreed with you if so, for obvious reasons.

[Voltage]

20 hours ago, Hexerin said:

 

• Zero counterplay is bad gameplay design. Period.

In Warframe, the counterplay is just killing the enemy faster than their ability to do something to you. Acolytes aren't the only places where you can be immobilized or under an annoying status effect in quick succession. The way you deal with all these is just killing faster. We would have a bit more "counterplay" if CC wasn't laser focused to make sure it's not that effective in new content. DE's been digging this hole for a very long time now given the way CC used to incapacitate every enemy besides the Corpus Nullifier.

If an enemy can't immobilize you or go invincible (Thrax for example), they just don't have a chance. That's where these enemy behaviors stem from.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Voltage

[Leqesai]

21 hours ago, Hexerin said:

• • Zero counterplay is bad gameplay design. Period.

Zero counterplay?

Is Silence a joke to you?! :)

Silence shuts Acolytes down.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Leqesai

[Tiltskillet]

58 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Zero counterplay?

Is Silence a joke to you?! :)

Silence has a range.  Acolyte Tele-yoink basically doesn't.

Not that I actually care about Tele-yoink, except when it bugs out--like getting spammed when I'm within sight of the Acolyte, or pulling me to somewhere other than where the Acolyte is.

I think all it's meant to do is force a fight.  Same idea but different method as Stalker's area lockdown.

[Leqesai]

16 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Silence has a range.  Acolyte Tele-yoink basically doesn't.

Not that I actually care about Tele-yoink, except when it bugs out--like getting spammed when I'm within sight of the Acolyte, or pulling me to somewhere other than where the Acolyte is.

I think all it's meant to do is force a fight.  Same idea but different method as Stalker's area lockdown.

Yeah Silence has a range but it basically shuts down Acolytes to the point where you do not need to run away from them. Also, if you have silence active and they yoink you they're going to be shut down when you appear next to them.

[Mazifet]

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

Zero counterplay?

Is Silence a joke to you?! :)

Silence shuts Acolytes down.

I don't think being forced to use helminth just to counter bad and outdated gameplay issues makes much sense.

[Leqesai]

5 minutes ago, Mazifet said:

I don't think being forced to use helminth just to counter bad and outdated gameplay issues makes much sense.

Okay...

The point is, there IS counterplay to the TC's issue. Just because its available via helminth doesn't invalidate it. You're free to ignore Helminth if you want, but it is a core aspect of Warframe build diversity whether you like it or not. 

[Hexerin]

Just now, Leqesai said:

Okay...

The point is, there IS counterplay to the TC's issue. Just because its available via helminth doesn't invalidate it. You're free to ignore Helminth if you want, but it is a core aspect of Warframe build diversity whether you like it or not. 

What you're failing to understand, is that there's no diversity if you're required to take one specific thing every time.

[Tiltskillet]

6 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Yeah Silence has a range but it basically shuts down Acolytes to the point where you do not need to run away from them. Also, if you have silence active and they yoink you they're going to be shut down when you appear next to them.

Silence is a great counter to Acolytes, I would never argue that.  It's not really good counterplay to getting yoinked though,  since Silence doesn't counter getting yoinked at the ranges where it's going to happen most of the time. Instead the Acolyte is going to be approaching, or shooting, or using one of its other special abilities.

Again, I don't understand what the big deal about counterplay is here though, except when Tele-yoink bugs out.  By all means, fix the bugs, but all it's supposed to do is force a confrontation. I don't think there needs to be counterplay to that. (Although there is a little.)

[Leqesai]

Just now, Tiltskillet said:

Silence is a great counter to Acolytes, I would never argue that.  It's not really good counterplay to getting yoinked though,  since Silence doesn't counter getting yoinked at the ranges where it's going to happen most of the time. Instead the Acolyte is going to be approaching, or shooting, or using one of its other special abilities.

Again, I don't understand what the big deal about counterplay is here though, except when Tele-yoink bugs out.  By all means, fix the bugs, but all it's supposed to do is force a confrontation. I don't think there needs to be counterplay to that. (Although there is a little.)

I dunno, I've never had yoink issues on my acolyte farming setup (Sevagoth with massive range + silence). I suppose if you are running with low/mid range silence it could be problematic but when your silence has a 50m radius you can effectively shut down Acolytes without much trouble. If you're just zooming through missions and an acolyte spawns behind you then it could be an issue but when I see the alert that one is spawning I typically stop moving so I can kill them and reap that sweet essence.

I do hear what you're saying, and I'm not trying to insinuate that Silence is a perfect solution to the OP's issue. I'm just saying you can shut them down with silence. It makes fighting them really simple when they aren't able to yoink you around while engaged with them. 

[Hexerin]

5 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Silence is a great counter to Acolytes, I would never argue that.  It's not really good counterplay to getting yoinked though,  since Silence doesn't counter getting yoinked at the ranges where it's going to happen most of the time. Instead the Acolyte is going to be approaching, or shooting, or using one of its other special abilities.

Again, I don't understand what the big deal about counterplay is here though, except when Tele-yoink bugs out.  By all means, fix the bugs, but all it's supposed to do is force a confrontation. I don't think there needs to be counterplay to that. (Although there is a little.)

You massively underestimate the range you can be at and be teleported. I'll have to take a video next time I'm in a mission on a frame that doesn't just instagib them.

[Leqesai]

10 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

What you're failing to understand, is that there's no diversity if you're required to take one specific thing every time.

You said there wasn't counterplay in your first post. There is... You didn't say anything about the viable option (silence) being an issue related to build-diversity... 

Feels like you're moving the goalpost. 

Counterplay exists. Sure it requires using a specific ability... but it exists. I'm not here to say you should/shouldn't use it. I'm just saying your original claim that there is no counterplay is misrepresentative. 

[Hexerin]

3 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

You said there wasn't counterplay in your first post. There is... You didn't say anything about the viable option (silence) being an issue related to build-diversity... 

Feels like you're moving the goalpost. 

Counterplay exists. Sure it requires using a specific ability... but it exists. I'm not here to say you should/shouldn't use it. I'm just saying your original claim that there is no counterplay is misrepresentative. 

Not moving the goalpost, pointing out a flaw in your statement. Also, you're clearly just here to bait post, so how about you move on now that you've made your opinion on the matter known? You clearly weren't able to understand the premise of the OP, anyways.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Hexerin

[Tiltskillet]

3 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

You massively underestimate the range you can be at and be teleported.

What gave you that impression, lol?

 

5 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I dunno, I've never had yoink issues on my acolyte farming setup (Sevagoth with massive range + silence). I suppose if you are running with low/mid range silence it could be problematic but when your silence has a 50m radius you can effectively shut down Acolytes without much trouble. If you're just zooming through missions and an acolyte spawns behind you then it could be an issue but when I see the alert that one is spawning I typically stop moving so I can kill them and reap that sweet essence.

Ok, to put it another way, I'm saying I don't even need Silence to prevent the yoink 95% of the time.  And I don't think you do either, even though Silence is a great thing to have in general. 

Reason being, 95% of the time it happens it's when the Acolyte first spawns in and I'm too far away for it to engage.  Since I want to kill the dang thing,  that's absolutely fine with me.

[Leqesai]

1 minute ago, Tiltskillet said:

Ok, to put it another way, I'm saying I don't even need Silence to prevent the yoink 95% of the time.  And I don't think you do either, even though Silence is a great thing to have in general. 

Reason being, 95% of the time it happens it's when the Acolyte first spawns in and I'm too far away for it to engage.  Since I want to kill the dang thing,  that's absolutely fine with me.

I definitely hear what you're saying and I see where Silence isn't always going to prevent the issue, but if you stop to engage a spawning Acolyte how often do they spawn farther than 50m away? Genuinely do not know the spawn distance mechanics. I feel like they spawn relatively close to the player most of the time (unless zooming past towards a mission objective/extraction).

[Hexerin]

6 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

What gave you that impression, lol?

This part:

24 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

since Silence doesn't counter getting yoinked at the ranges where it's going to happen most of the time

Acolytes can and will teleport you (consistently, not buggily) when you're not even like 10m away from them sometimes. I'm pretty sure this is a line of sight thing (as in, they don't have line of sight on you), but it still happens and it's beyond absurd.

[Tiltskillet]

3 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

I feel like they spawn relatively close to the player most of the time (unless zooming past towards a mission objective/extraction).

That's exactly right.  And I'm generally not yoinked except in that situation: flying through a map so that I'm out of sight of the Acolyte  by the time it spawns in.  Sometimes it happens more unpredictably in a squad situation, but that's rare...and I consider it a convenient thing when it does happen.  Very rarely I've tried to escape the Acolyte rather than kill it, and it'll happen then too.  Which is exactly what I think it's meant to do.

5 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Acolytes can and will teleport you (consistently, not buggily) when you're not even like 10m away from them sometimes. I'm pretty sure this is a line of sight thing (as in, they don't have line of sight on you), but it still happens and it's beyond absurd.

Oh, I misunderstood you.  I thought you were saying I was underestimating the immense distances they can yoink.

I have had it happen when I'm nearby, but so rarely that's part of why I considered it a bug.  Are you often trying to get out of Acolyte LoS?  Like maybe to kill it with an AoE weapon?

[Hexerin]

8 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

That's exactly right.  And I'm generally not yoinked except in that situation: flying through a map so that I'm out of sight of the Acolyte  by the time it spawns in.  Sometimes it happens more unpredictably in a squad situation, but that's rare...and I consider it a convenient thing when it does happen.  Very rarely I've tried to escape the Acolyte rather than kill it, and it'll happen then too.  Which is exactly what I think it's meant to do.

Oh, I misunderstood you.  I thought you were saying I was underestimating the immense distances they can yoink.

I have had it happen when I'm nearby, but so rarely that's part of why I considered it a bug.  Are you often trying to get out of Acolyte LoS?  Like maybe to kill it with an AoE weapon?

I don't try to retreat from the Acolyte, but they sometimes get themselves stuck in pits or behind objects (like piles of crates, etc). This naturally leads to entire swaths of the room being made "out of sight" to them, which triggers the teleport and puts me in tight quarters that the Zephyr build I'd been using the past few days absolutely cannot be in and survive for long. However, because the Acolyte is stuck in that location, I also can't leave without constant repeated teleports.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I mostly agree, overall. I think some adjustments would be nice. I don''t necessarily think its a huge massive issue, that needs fixing immediately, but yeah, some changes would be welcome.

Makes me think of two incidents I have experienced. One is arguably a bug. There are certain places on maps, with rooms that are locked in certain ways, requiring you to take steps to open the room. However, some of these places, can also have an Acolyte spawn in them... and if its the Acolyte that can force teleport you... So goodbye 50 mins and a bunch of SE and resources. Another was when I was carrying 3 other players in Mirror Defence. One was slow when Acolyte spawned, and on the other side of the map, even though new Defence point was about to activate. Now, I can kill Acolytes fast, and I can also defend a Defence point from Steel Path enemies solo... what I can't do, is both if I am teleported vast distances. Was a little bit annoying, and a little funny. Also, shouldn't necessarily be that one person in a team should have to do everything, so my other three team mates not being able to defend a point for 15 seconds, probably a sign we should have left but ehhh... 

[Hexerin]

38 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

There are certain places on maps, with rooms that are locked in certain ways, requiring you to take steps to open the room. However, some of these places, can also have an Acolyte spawn in them... and if its the Acolyte that can force teleport you... So goodbye 50 mins and a bunch of SE and resources.

I had this happen to me, but slightly different situation. I was on Grineer Galleon Sabotage, and was doing the method where you put the fuel cell (hot rod) into the coolant slot. Right after initiating the defense objective, the Acolyte spawned in and teleported me behind one of the locked gates. Luckily, there was a console nearby that would unlock the gate... but there was also an enemy accessing the defense objective (which halts the progress and initiates a full tile lockdown, locking the door back in). So I'd lift the lockdown with my console, bullet jump towards the gate, and then that one enemy would lock the gate back down again.

I had to expend like 150 ciphers on that console, but I did so because each time I did, the defense objective would progress by a fraction of a percent (took 2 or 3 ciphers per 1% of objective progress). Once the objective finished, I was able to progress to the extract as normal.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

6 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

I had this happen to me, but slightly different situation. I was on Grineer Galleon Sabotage, and was doing the method where you put the fuel cell (hot rod) into the coolant slot. Right after initiating the defense objective, the Acolyte spawned in and teleported me behind one of the locked gates. Luckily, there was a console nearby that would unlock the gate... but there was also an enemy accessing the defense objective (which halts the progress and initiates a full tile lockdown, locking the door back in). So I'd lift the lockdown with my console, bullet jump towards the gate, and then that one enemy would lock the gate back down again.

I had to expend like 150 ciphers on that console, but I did so because each time I did, the defense objective would progress by a fraction of a percent (took 2 or 3 ciphers per 1% of objective progress). Once the objective finished, I was able to progress to the extract as normal.

 

Yeah its frustrating when it happens. Your example sounds especially annoying. 

[Hexerin]

Added a video showing the issue in action, in a moderately controlled situation which really emphasizes how bad the issue is. This isn't some uncommon occurrence either, the Acolytes do this frequently.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

I went into a SP mission once with a Mag.  I brought status heavy guns designed to work with her bubble and a status based sword, which annihilated SP enemies, but did nothing to SP Shadow Stalker at the time.  Of course he showed up, got himself stuck on a tiny ledge down near a reset-zone pit, and then proceeded to teleport me to him every single time I jumped off the ledge, since staying on it meant instant death as there was no room to move or do anything.  It was instant, like OP said, and absolutely infuriating because he just spammed it over and over every time I moved off the ledge.  I don't know if it was bugged or intended to work this way, but I couldn't even abort the mission, and his tankiness combined with the status based weapons I was using meant killing him was going to take an eternity.  My options were surrender and die, or hit-jump-get teleport spammed over and over until he died.

The fact that acolytes and stalker are all basically "insta-kill them" or "get insta-killed by them while they get tons of cheese powers and can turn yours off" is some of the most amateur hour game design I have ever seen.  "How do we make them difficult?"  "Just let them turn off like half the game mechanics that the players need and then give them one-shot damage."  So now I just go the "insta-kill them first" route, which is also bad design.