6 months away, 1 week back in. And an idea to pay-to-enjoy, focused on Warframe vets.

[Graavarg]

I finally got enough of Warframe last spring, and took an "indefinite pause". In a way I also had got enough of DE's "oooh, we want you to have your power fantasy", in combination with all the immersion-breaking math tinkering. Playing Warframe had gone from fun and interesting to downright silly and uninteresting, and decidedly "un-fun". So instead of carping (even more) on the forum and spending time in a game I did not like anymore, the logical  decision was to "pause".

I did miss Warframe for a few weeks. Mostly because it is such an accessible game to jump into, when you need to clear your head or have a half-hour of "nothing to do time". Warframe is also king when you have to sit through boring online meetings. But that feeling went away, and with it "everything Warframe". I logged in during Tennocon to watch Soulframe, but that was it. No more Warframe, regrets, just not on the radar anymore. 

Until a week ago, when a friend/clan member wanted Dagath's Hollow built in the dojo and I had to jump in to start the process. Which I did during another boring online meeting, and noticed that I had missed two things, the fluid movement and "feeling" of playing Warframe. As in "playing regularly", always with some small thing to do, in-game. Because now I actually had some such stuff TO do: Wisp Prime Access had come (and gone) and Grendel Prime Access had just arrived, I had a whole Nightwave-bar to fill and some mods and other stuff to acquire. Basic stuff = the GOOD stuff.

Then another old friend/clan-member noticed (on Steam) that I was playing Warframe, and asked if I wanted to join in acquiring Kullervo. My initial reaction was "no", I got the opportunity to try Duviri and while some of it was fine I completely and totally hated the &%¤#¤! Orowyrm part. I still do. And the farming requirements ("why am I wasting my life on this sh*t"-part) for all things Duviri just seemed quite excessive, even for Warframe. They still seems so, with a few exceptions (mainly Kullervo and the intrinsics). But friends are friends, clan honor is clan honor and co-op is still king, so I said "sure".

It has been a fun week, still have Fulmin Prime and Gunsen Prime to farm and a few of the Duviri weapons to buy (for clamps), but otherwise I am mostly back in the "been there, done that"-category again. I couldn't care less about the "ooh, power fantasy"-sh*t, I don't know how many Archon Shards I have or have many of them are Tau, so far I haven't slotted a single one, on principle. And the only "power"-problems I've experienced are that I am often so bloody powerful the game is boring to play. And yes, I am "old skool" in the regard that the enjoyable thing about computer games are actually playing them, and that engaging with a dressed-up slot machine is not actual "computer gaming". That's just "gaming"...

The state of the game feels to me as sort of "backburner". The Dagath mission is a nifty re-use mix of existing mechanisms, and in hindsight this has been kind of a thing for the last year (maybe year-and-a-half). Coupled with generous additions of "more power" (that we do not actually need, but always still want). The Dagath mainline was a bit different, with basic changes (mostly improvements) to the game. Though why the "shield gate"-mechanism is still alive and well is beyond my understanding (which btw functions mostly on logic and coherence). My take is that a lot of DE resources have now been put on Soulframe and the Warframe Dev team is sort of holding the fort. If such a phase is used to go back and improve existing stuff in the game, instead of adding more fuel for the "power fantasy" and more game-immersion breaking mechanisms, then full points to DE from me. As a game Warframe's strength lies not in the addition of over-hyped "new" stuff (especially if it once again adds to the already out-of-control power curve), but in all that has been planned, designed and built over the last 10 years (give and take a few months). Improving those parts of the game will make Warframe better, while adding more content islands, more resources to farm and more life-wasting mechanisms will not. Yes, the "engagement stats" stats imply that players are actually enjoying the game, but in the really real world they are actually not.

After only one week, I can already feel the Warframe stasis creeping in. Even at LR3 there is still content to be had, but getting my dirty little hands on it entails playing parts of the game I don't enjoy. To get to LR3 one has to do such an immense amount of resource farming that it boggles the mind. Even more mind-boggling is the situation where you have millions (billions) of stuff (hundreds of different things) you cannot use for anything in your Orbiter's inventory but you are AGAIN forced still farm ANOTHER new made-up resource to try out something new. Or in simpler terms, with 99% of the game "finished" you are time and time again forced into basic farming to have fun playing Warframe. That is outright dumb, both from the player's perspective and from a dev perspective. Retaining players is THE core measurement, after all. Or rather, retaining PAYING customers is THE ULTIMATE measurement.

I don't mind paying for having fun, but I seriously mind paying for "not fun". At LR-level I have done my due diligence and want to enjoy the select parts of the game that are still fun. Every player have their own preferences, but for me, the fun parts of Warframe are:

• the basics, acquiring and unlocking new Prime stuff
• testing and maxing "all stuff"
• min-maxing weapons, with rivens
• co-op, preferably with friends & voice
• "chill play", in combination with the Warframe timers: just log in and "do something"

If DE could implement this (= If I could have this), I would never need to pause Warframe. If DE could implement this in a way that still generated revenue (instead of forcing us to outright buy new stuff to avoid the boring, un-fun parts) Warframe could also go on forever. My suggestion is to handle this with an subscription service for LR-level players only (there is actually quite a lot of "post-30lvl" players, and the over-whelming percentage have stopped playing actively). After you get your coveted Legendary status you can start paying a monthly fee, which gives you just two things (which are picked from my personal preferences only):

1. Access to a new trader, that will trade anything non-plat for everything non-plat (at exorbitant exchange rates). This would make everything you have collected meaningful again. Darvo's cousin, maybe, or some secret Corpus facility. This would also allow long-term players to decide if they want to buy some new needed resource (like "Vainthorn") or engage in the farming. All with as little "plat"-related impact as possible.
2. An unlimited amount of subscription-dependent "slots", with continuous monthly additions (as long as you subscribe) and the option to buy even more in the normal fashion. And yes, this includes riven slots (you are paying for "server storage" with your subscription).

I have no idea at which level such a steady monthly income would compensate for returning players outright buying a new warframe/weapon for real money, instead of farming it. Or for the few bits and bytes needed for rivens, warframes, setups etc. But from the behavior of the players I know (from Warframe and other games) such a mechanism would be used as long as it is considered "fair" (or "generous"). After all, any true min-maxer in Warframe is also min-maxing IRL, and this woould allow more freedom to do just that, while continuing to play Warframe for fun.

This is also definitely not "pay-to win", since anyone reaching Legendary level can be considered to have already "won" the game. Once upon a time DE revered vets, which was one of the flavors that got me into Warframe. The game was rumoured to have the most helpful player community on the planet, with advanced players stepping down from their lofty peaks to help newer players along. This wasn't just a rumour either, it was totally and completely true. I can still remember the sheer awe I felt when a 20+ level "demi-god" joined our mission, often offering good advice while single-handedly slaughtering the enemy hordes we had such problems with. I think it would benefit Warframe (and the community) greatly if there was a way to smooth the return and the retainment of such players.

Finally, the in-game plat trade is screwed (and screwed up) enough as it is, so my preference would be for a subscription NOT payable in platinum, but with real money. And I would happily support DE and the game this way, if they support me having fun playing Warframe. That was the one thing that actually hurt, when I (finally) stopped playing, that it was a sort of break-up decision. A lot of baggage and irritation, yes, but also a lot of fun and investment. There were times when my IRL world was planned according  to Cetus time 😄, and where the next Prime seemed like a real happening. If I could settle for a more laconic relationship I could still "play Warframe", but with that lacking there are just two settings for me: "all-in" or "all-out".

Edited October 30, 2023 by Graavarg

[Nira]

My story is very similar! LR3, had a break for six months, came back about a week ago.

Initially I felt the same as you about Duviri, but after actually giving it a fair try, I have to say I'm really enjoying it! Hit me up in game if you want some company for the wyrm fights, I'm currently laid up with a broken collarbone and have a lot of time to play 😆

I can't see them making any groundbreaking changes like subscriptions and such at this stage but I do get what you're saying. At this point I come and enjoy the game for what it is, get borderline obsessive about it for a few weeks then take a break again 🙈

[Karyst]

Too long, give a summary.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

I don't see what would be fun about a subscription to get a trader that bypasses the grind like that, wouldn't it circle back to not having anything to do?

The suggestions feel more like something you want and can afford than something that would be beneficial to every player

[D-Shear]

Very bad idea and concept. You can already bypass every mastery grind with platinum, which is incredibly easy to accumulate by either trading, or well, farm something else to sell for the stuff you want... wait a minute... 

See what you typed up there?

But as someone who grinded and crafted every single mastery item in this game in a very short time span:

Just focus up. Prepare a spreadsheet, count all resources and then sit down and grind them down source by source and you'll be done with it in a very quick manner. I absolutely hate Duviri with a passion, but getting the resources is so quick and easy, except maybe for that one plant and clamps of course. But you are LR1 already anyway, how much can you possibly miss, that you can't knock out in a handful of planned out sessions? 

[SneakyErvin]

I dont see the point at all when you can already buy frames on day 1 for real money. What would be the point of a sub-based vendor that practically ends up doing the exact same? And since you already enjoy "the basics, acquiring and unlocking new Prime stuff" you likely have plat from that to buy new regular frames and weapons when they arrive. So even less of a point for a sub-based vendor.

[(XBOX)OneOmniverse]

3 hours ago, Karyst said:

Too long, give a summary.

- They took an "indefinite pause" from Warframe last spring as they felt the game had gone from fun to silly/uninteresting, with too much focus on power and immersion-breaking mechanics. 

- They logged in occasionally but didn't really engage with the game until helping a friend build something in the dojo, which they enjoyed. 

- A friend then asked them to help acquire Kullervo from Duviri Paradox. They didn't like the farm but helped for clan/friend reasons. 

- He feels the game is now mostly in a "backburner" state with new content being islands or adding more power/farming. They want improvements to existing systems instead.

- Reaching high ranks like LR3 requires immense, boring farming that isn't fun. They want to enjoy the fun parts of the game at their level.

- He proposes a subscription for high ranks that unlocks trading for resources and unlimited slots, to avoid boring farms and allow enjoying the game. 

- They feel this could generate revenue while letting veteran players have fun rather than feeling forced to farm or buy new gear just to play. It would help retain players long-term.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

So you got bored of the game and ask for a subscription service? 

You should just leave the game behind and find something new

[Karyst]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)OneOmniverse said:

- They took an "indefinite pause" from Warframe last spring as they felt the game had gone from fun to silly/uninteresting, with too much focus on power and immersion-breaking mechanics. 

- They logged in occasionally but didn't really engage with the game until helping a friend build something in the dojo, which they enjoyed. 

- A friend then asked them to help acquire Kullervo from Duviri Paradox. They didn't like the farm but helped for clan/friend reasons. 

- He feels the game is now mostly in a "backburner" state with new content being islands or adding more power/farming. They want improvements to existing systems instead.

- Reaching high ranks like LR3 requires immense, boring farming that isn't fun. They want to enjoy the fun parts of the game at their level.

- He proposes a subscription for high ranks that unlocks trading for resources and unlimited slots, to avoid boring farms and allow enjoying the game. 

- They feel this could generate revenue while letting veteran players have fun rather than feeling forced to farm or buy new gear just to play. It would help retain players long-term.

Thank you. This proposition will not work since it's going against DE's F2P concept but thank you for your efforts.

[(PSN)Unstar]

I want you to be happy; that's the lens with which I write all of this.

With respect, my read is that you're still burnt out on Warframe and aren't in a place where you want what it's offering. I would guess that a big part of this problem is that you took a break (which was a great and healthy idea!) but then came back before you were truly ready.

And to take another guess, I think that's exacerbated by your drive to top off your MR, which requires that you do nearly all the content in the game, even the parts you don't like.  My best advice would be: don't chase that goal.  There is no happiness or satisfaction waiting for your at LR3 that will be worth playing game content that you actively dislike.  So if you can, just make your peace with the fact that you won't get there until new MR content that you do like is released; I think you'll be much happier that way.

And as for the game's power fantasy, I don't see that changing.  Another thing to probably make your peace with or get away from, unfortunately.

At the very least, I'd recommend going back to your break.  Only come back when you personally feel the itch to play Warframe.

[kamisama85]

Sorry OP, but sounds like you need to take a longer break.

I have been around since beta and as a veteran player I don't think any of your suggestions are healthy or even necessary. These just sound like things you want because you're still actually burned out.

The key to keeping Warframe fresh is simple. Don't play 24/7 and don't play any more once fun turns into frustration. Moderation goes a long way, and asking for a laundry list of changes like these is nothing more than a VERY short term band-aid fix that will still leave you burned out and frustrated. Afterall, it only took one week for your burns to start paining again.

[(XBOX)Hellsteeth30]

I took a log in only break for about a month or two, did wonders.

I've only been playing since July too.  

Currently I've been binging solo Railjack and Sisters of Parvos

Endo and Forma are an ever persistent nuisance, upgrading mods needs both.  

I have over 40 frames currently, and if I upgrade certain mods to max I'll be needing to forma each and every one of them.

So my current goal is hit up void storms, get prime parts to sell, buy forma and get forma prints etc to do the above.

My point being if I hadn't taken that break, the game would be uninstalled by now.  Seems like you need a longer break OP, you seem to still be at "F this" stage.

[Graavarg]

On 2023-10-30 at 11:45 AM, Karyst said:

Too long, give a summary.

Better if you learn to read faster, as summaries are meant for idiots and bosses... 😉

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

At a point you outgrow a game and I don't believe a live service game needs to evolve to suit the needs of someone who has completed all its content. It should focus on cycling through new players.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[Graavarg]

On 2023-10-30 at 11:26 AM, Nira said:

I can't see them making any groundbreaking changes like subscriptions and such at this stage but I do get what you're saying. At this point I come and enjoy the game for what it is, get borderline obsessive about it for a few weeks then take a break again

Yup, that's basically it. A short trip of part nostalgia, part pure enjoyment but with a rising and familiar feeling of irritation and disillusion.

I don't believe DE will change anything either, but I still wanted to point out that it could be an option. By now 90% of my gang/clan are working or studying (at university-level), several have families and no one have the time to do the Warframe grind. Buying Prime Access and/or new warframes outright is paying too much for too little fun, even if everyone now actually have money. But money is just money, none of them quit because Warframe was too expensive, they left because the game and the grind wasn't fun enough anymore.

But all of them would come back, intermittently and situationally, if there was a solution for doing that allowing for focusing on the fun parts and paying to avoid the un-fun ones. Currently there isn't. Which in IRL translates as "perma-break": which in turn means less players playing Warframe and less income for DE. I don't see that as a general "win" for anyone.

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

2 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

But all of them would come back, intermittently and situationally, if there was a solution for doing that allowing for focusing on the fun parts and paying to avoid the un-fun ones. Currently there isn't. Which in IRL translates as "perma-break": which in turn means less players playing Warframe and less income for DE. I don't see that as a general "win" for anyone.

It's not less income for DE. If anything, vets are farming plat or already have such a huge stash that they could take a break for 5 years and then be able to afford everything when they come back. Maybe they're throwing a few dollars to DE here and there but newer players are the ones spending the most. I've seen countless players MR10 and below who bought the heirloom packs. This is not my sole reasoning for thinking like this but free live service games as a business opportunity are based on the principle of cycling through players and not retaining. Retaining them however makes for an even more successful game but the margins with the retainees are small.

I find it strange that veterans cannot just move on to other games or ventures instead of asking for more content or reasons to play the game. It's as if there is no other venture than can fulfill them aside form Warframe.

[Graavarg]

1 minute ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

At a point you outgrow a game and I don't believe a live service game needs to evolve to suit the needs of someone who has completed all its content. It should focus on cycling through new players.

I partly agree with that, and it also kind of summarizes DE's current "business plan" for Warframe.

The only part I don't agree with is the assumption that everyone outgrows Warframe. What if that doesn't happen? If someone would like to continue playing the game, together with (old) friends, but currently there just isn't a fitting mechanism for doing that. Because that is where I am coming from, and I'm not alone...

If done correctly, such an "evergreen" mechanism need not impact the "cycling" and the frenetic "power fantasy" feverishness at all, and could and would function as an added extra. After all, more players is always better and players paying real money to sidestep a grind they have done a million times are among the best kind of players. Online games and their development runs on real money after all, not on "power fantasies"...

[Graavarg]

1 minute ago, Ghastly-Ghoul said:

It's not less income for DE. If anything, vets are farming plat or already have such a huge stash that they could take a break for 5 years and then be able to afford everything when they come back. Maybe they're throwing a few dollars to DE here and there but newer players are the ones spending the most.

You are somewhat correct. I ran out of plat in April this year, after close to two years of not buying any more plat and still spending plat as normal. But it is a misconception that vets in general is sitting on huge stacks of plat, though there are exceptions. As for acquiring more plat in-game, that would be easy enough. I'm personally sitting on between 10 and 50 full sets of all older primes, and do have multiple sets of the newer ones. And multiple copies of Baro mods etc. and a sh_tload of good and godly rivens. But if I don't have the time to grind (which is actually playing Warframe), how on earth would it be meaningful to run an account on Warframe Market or, even worse, spend my time watching the scrolling trade window with the exquisite 80's design? That would be beyond meaningless, so I would rather buy plat straight and instead gift the sets & rivens to friends and clan members.

This is all about having fun, and actually very little about money. It is also not about "affording" stuff. Buying everything outright is a double-negative. You feel the same as when you ordered a drink at a hotel bar and had to pay 3 times the amount it costs in your own pub, which is "dumb" and "stiffed". And farming and cracking the relics is core Warframe, all the guys I play with went through hunting Axi relics as a C-drop in the Void so the current acquisition options is like  a kindergarden's kindergarden. If you buy the stuff you can't farm the relics and crack them with friends, and that is part of the fun. Up to a point, because if and when real life intervenes, it all quickly becomes really sh*tty if that de-syncs you game situation from your friends'. 

But all this is beside the point, because such a subscription mechanism should be payable with real money only, no plat allowed. 

[Graavarg]

On 2023-10-31 at 10:10 AM, (XBOX)Hellsteeth30 said:

My point being if I hadn't taken that break, the game would be uninstalled by now.  Seems like you need a longer break OP, you seem to still be at "F this" stage.

Yup, I needed a longer break. It would have been longer still, unless one of my friends/clan mates had gotten triggered by Dagath and started playing again, and needed Dagath's Hollow built in the Dojo. All it took was logging in and running/jumping in the Dojo, and suddenly Warframe was an option again.

The "F this" is also somewhat correct, because most of what got me fed up with the game is still there. This post was about finding a way around that, and possibly bringing more of the "old guard" back at the same time. 

[Graavarg]

On 2023-10-30 at 8:54 PM, kamisama85 said:

"...actually burned out"

Nah, it is not a burn-out. There is not even any reason for burning out, since I have "everything" (by now excepting a few of the Duviri weapons).

It was more of a question of what I didn't have, which was "fun". And if you voluntarily continue spending your time playing a game you feel is un-fun, you REALLY need your head examined. Ultimately it was a bit more complicated, since I knew (as I still do) that having fun playing Warframe was just some micro-steps away. The easiest one was, and still is "[at least] one riven [slot] for every weapon in the arsenal". That is easily 6-12 months worth of fun content (for me personally). The more complex ones are allowing clan members to share resources, which would facilitate players coming back because they could sidestep part of the immense grind that way. This idea was simply born from the question of what it would take to get the guys back. It is not as if they are "gone", we still game together, just not in Warframe anymore.

[Graavarg]

On 2023-10-30 at 8:38 PM, (PSN)Unstar said:

There is no happiness or satisfaction waiting for your at LR3 that will be worth playing game content that you actively dislike.  So if you can, just make your peace with the fact that you won't get there until new MR content that you do like is released; I think you'll be much happier that way.

I am actually at almost max MR, still missing three of the new Duviri weapons (due to lack of Pathos Clamps) and Gunsen Prime came out of the foundry only today.

So I am quite at peace 😉. Acquiring the stuff that came in during the last six months has actually been part of the fun, and so has ranking it up. Though I have to say I truly believe that Neo F2-relic to be cursed...

[Graavarg]

On 2023-10-30 at 4:11 PM, (XBOX)K1jker said:

So you got bored of the game and ask for a subscription service? 

Not quite, I ask for a subscription service where players could spend real money to sidestep the un-fun parts of the game. A service that would only be available after reaching Legendary rank (which is a totally "been there done that"-state in Warframe) and only payable with real money (not plat).

On 2023-10-30 at 4:11 PM, (XBOX)K1jker said:

You should just leave the game behind and find something new

😀 We all did that a long time ago, I just happened to be the one that persisted playing Warframe. For the last couple of years mostly because the game synced so well with the Corona-pandemic, "working from home" and hours upon hours of (mostly) boring online meetings. You look "seriously active" in your Skype/Zoom/Webex-meeting when on camera but mute and playing Warframe.

The point is that we all liked and still like voice-based co-op in Warframe = everyone likes actually playing the game, together. But the current mechanisms just add burdens to the general meaningless of it all => if we could pay to make the bad sh*t go away and have fun playing Warframe again, well, that would be what gaming is all about: having fun.

[Karyst]

On 2023-11-02 at 4:56 PM, Graavarg said:

Better if you learn to read faster, as summaries are meant for idiots and bosses... 😉

I'm not an idiot, do you understand?

[Graavarg]

4 hours ago, Karyst said:

I'm not an idiot, do you understand?

I am not saying that you are, just that summaries are for idiots and bosses. 

[Karyst]

4 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

I am not saying that you are, just that summaries are for idiots and bosses. 

Exactly, that's why I've requested a summary, do you understand now perhaps?