Remove Loot Drops.

[Birdframe_Prime]

14 hours ago, Quantum_rage said:

i don't like you, you are telling me words without giving me reasons, i don't like that

I gave clear reasons. Allow me to re-iterate:

No automated system can determine the accurate difference between players using a Macro to AFK and players just being players in a repetitive fashion. Even the idea you had for detecting if three players in a squad were AFK with one actual player would have detected myself and my clan when we try to teach new players how to better play things like endurance Defence and Survival.

You cannot introduce any form of AFK detection system that functions automatically that is fair to the player base. You even said it yourself; you get caught by the current AFK detection system while you're playing normally, and that other legitimate players do by getting up to take a quick break while their squad keeps them alive. Automatic detection literally doesn't work.

Hell, it's worse because you can learn how the Automatic system works and simply do one extra step that prevents it from triggering.

Run it based on repetitive inputs faster or more precise than a normal human can repeat? Accessibility players need those repetitive macros to play the game. Run it based on activity? New players being shown the ropes, or out-killed by experienced players will suffer because they literally can't be as active as the other players yet.

Any automatic system can be tricked. And always tricked by the people that want to get around it, while the people that are just playing their game the way they can enjoy it will get punished because the automatic system can't differentiate between real and accidental AFK.

The trick for solving AFK activities is to ensure that the bare minimum of activity is actually required to play the game.

That can mean making sure players actually have to walk around the room to pick up loot. That can also mean that the massively tanky, easily summoned and infinite-duration-until-killed turret that Wukong has will deplete your own ammo pool instead of having infinite ammo forcing you to go pick up more. That can mean that AoE weapons most commonly (according to DE's internal metrics) used for AFK farming are nerfed so that they have incredibly low ammo pools and only restore 1 ammo from pickups. And it can also mean what DE are actively working on to further prevent that meta, to whit, the return of self damage in a more fair form that prevents players from standing still and shooting their feet the way non-Wukong players do for AFK farming.

It is simpler, and more effective, to see what tools players are using to AFK farm and then making sure those tools are flawed or do not provide the returns that the players want them to.

For example, better than your own AFK option of a quick-time Hacking event, DE have already implemented a better AFK punishment function in the new tile set: Every few minutes, out of line-of-sight, an enemy will go summon a Necramech. Why is this better? Because at higher level, a Necramech cannot be dealt with using AFK farming methods. It can be dealt with two ways; the first is by seeing the marker, hearing the alarm, then going and killing the enemy that is attempting to summon (something that literally cannot be automated in any way), or you have to kill it using the quick and easy methods that AFK meta farming weapons simply don't have the option for. Because if you don't it can physically move you out of whatever safe place you've found, AoE slow you so that you can't respond, and kill you while you're AFK.

In point of fact, the real trick is to make sure that the desired way to play the game (moving, shooting, needing to keep your eyes on the game) is more rewarding and offers the easiest time farming.

That's how you prevent AFK.

So that's why Loot Pickup is going to stay in the game, because it's one layer, out of many, many layers, that forces you to actually interact with the game.

[Quantum_rage]

12 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I gave clear reasons. Allow me to re-iterate:

No automated system can determine the accurate difference between players using a Macro to AFK and players just being players in a repetitive fashion. Even the idea you had for detecting if three players in a squad were AFK with one actual player would have detected myself and my clan when we try to teach new players how to better play things like endurance Defence and Survival.

You cannot introduce any form of AFK detection system that functions automatically that is fair to the player base. You even said it yourself; you get caught by the current AFK detection system while you're playing normally, and that other legitimate players do by getting up to take a quick break while their squad keeps them alive. Automatic detection literally doesn't work.

Hell, it's worse because you can learn how the Automatic system works and simply do one extra step that prevents it from triggering.

Run it based on repetitive inputs faster or more precise than a normal human can repeat? Accessibility players need those repetitive macros to play the game. Run it based on activity? New players being shown the ropes, or out-killed by experienced players will suffer because they literally can't be as active as the other players yet.

Any automatic system can be tricked. And always tricked by the people that want to get around it, while the people that are just playing their game the way they can enjoy it will get punished because the automatic system can't differentiate between real and accidental AFK.

The trick for solving AFK activities is to ensure that the bare minimum of activity is actually required to play the game.

That can mean making sure players actually have to walk around the room to pick up loot. That can also mean that the massively tanky, easily summoned and infinite-duration-until-killed turret that Wukong has will deplete your own ammo pool instead of having infinite ammo forcing you to go pick up more. That can mean that AoE weapons most commonly (according to DE's internal metrics) used for AFK farming are nerfed so that they have incredibly low ammo pools and only restore 1 ammo from pickups. And it can also mean what DE are actively working on to further prevent that meta, to whit, the return of self damage in a more fair form that prevents players from standing still and shooting their feet the way non-Wukong players do for AFK farming.

It is simpler, and more effective, to see what tools players are using to AFK farm and then making sure those tools are flawed or do not provide the returns that the players want them to.

For example, better than your own AFK option of a quick-time Hacking event, DE have already implemented a better AFK punishment function in the new tile set: Every few minutes, out of line-of-sight, an enemy will go summon a Necramech. Why is this better? Because at higher level, a Necramech cannot be dealt with using AFK farming methods. It can be dealt with two ways; the first is by seeing the marker, hearing the alarm, then going and killing the enemy that is attempting to summon (something that literally cannot be automated in any way), or you have to kill it using the quick and easy methods that AFK meta farming weapons simply don't have the option for. Because if you don't it can physically move you out of whatever safe place you've found, AoE slow you so that you can't respond, and kill you while you're AFK.

In point of fact, the real trick is to make sure that the desired way to play the game (moving, shooting, needing to keep your eyes on the game) is more rewarding and offers the easiest time farming.

That's how you prevent AFK.

So that's why Loot Pickup is going to stay in the game, because it's one layer, out of many, many layers, that forces you to actually interact with the game.

I'm not arguing with 90% of what your saying, i get it and i am not here suggesting a 100% fully automated system, i get it, in get everything your saying. 100% of it, but your wrong, you "CAN" create an afk detection system that IS reliable, THIS is an undisputed fact 
simple put, it does not matter if you have a junk afk detection system if a human at some point is verifying that, it is in fact, an afk farmer then the system will be very very very reliable, maybe not 100% but like 99% or whatever good enough a hell of allot better then what we currently have

the point of this is not to have an automated system, the point is to GET RID OF, the automated systems because automatics afk detection systems suck
you use the detection system as an indicator to INDICATE to a HUMAN that "hay someone over here is might be doing some of that afk stuff you don't like, go check it out"

and i know what your going to say "ehh DE wont want to hire 500 something humans to moderate the game, and your right, you get your community playing the game to do it.

and i know what your going to say, but, the community will be unreliable, and your right, well kind of to a certain extend, if you get enough people to vote on a single match to say that "someone was afking" that is a very very high indication that they were afk farming

and again, this doesn't even need to be a thing where the comment votes cause the punishment, the community votes can jut be another step in the chain until it gets back to someone who works at DE, the point of this is to reduce the size of the "afk detection team" at DE down to a minimal number of people, the way you do that is by filtering out games where "you know no afk stuff is happening"

think of the detection methods as "filters" not absolute truth, a system like this would be very very reliable,

Edited December 21, 2023 by Quantum_rage

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 minutes ago, Quantum_rage said:

think of the detection methods as "filters" not absolute truth, a system like this would be very very reliable,

But that's the thing, you're massively, massively overcomplicating something that literally doesn't need to be.

By building a system that is full of caveats saying 'Oh, but not every report is going to be a troll' and 'Oh, but not this mode, people aren't AFK-ing on this mode'... that's absolutely pointless.

Because it neither actively stops the person from doing that, live, in the game where they're doing it, nor does it have any affect on the tactics they're using to do that.

The point of DE's methods is to make sure that any person, anywhere in the game, has to actively play the game.

That's what you're missing about this whole concept.

Moment to moment. Within a game session, every time they load into a mission, before they even start to AFK, the whole point is to make sure that AFK methods do not either A.) Work, or B.) Reward a player anywhere close to just playing normally, or C.) Exist.

Because what DE want here is for you to be playing. Badly, amazingly, lazily, whatever. Just playing. Not watching the screen while the game and your Macros play for you.

When you take that basic premise into account, then all of your methods that you've listed don't, and won't, do anything.

A community-based reporting system? Sure not everyone will use it inappropriately. But most won't use it at all. And it won't actually stop the people that are going into a mission solo, or in a premade group.

It won't solve AFK tactics in Warframe.

Simply removing the AFK methods, or modifying AFK methods to be inconvenient, or even just making sure that AFK methods only work for a few minutes at a time before you have to start playing again, that's what will stop AFK methods.

It does, will, and has previously stopped AFK methods in multiple games over the years. And that's what DE are doing. Rather than over-complicating things by having some resource-intense reporting/monitoring method.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Birdframe_Prime

[Quantum_rage]

16 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

A community-based reporting system? Sure not everyone will use it inappropriately. But most won't use it at all. And it won't actually stop the people that are going into a mission solo, or in a premade group.

ONCE AGAIN you miss the point
i am talking about a "new" concept that has not been done in, many if any game that i can think of?
here i will explain

lets say, for example, we keep the bad "oh your not moving, let me flag you for possible being afk" system, ok lets keep that
after 2 minibus or 5 minutes or whatever i don't care the system will flag you
(although i would recommend a better system like this as the starting step since this as it is, gives ALLOT of false negatives and is super easy to avoid triggering to begin with)

once the player has been flagged, a message will be sent to "other random players online" like allot of them, as many as it can or maybe just a bunch of random ones, that are, sitting in their orbiter, sitting around in their dojo. and also not in currently in a group, IE the notification will get sent to solo players
maybe the notification stays on their screen for a minute or so, 30 seconds whatever, and if they click on the notification they will be able to spectate the "spectate the afk user" 
at that point they can vote if the user is afk farming, or not or doing anything malicious in any way
and keep in mind, this would not just be one person voting it would be many
YES you are correct, not everyone will use this system, not everyone will care, but guess what? that's the beauty of this system. it would be a simple opt in or opt out type of thing, super super OPTOINAL, if you want you can completely ignore it, however, some players will want to use this system, because some players realize that "afk farming ruins the game" I'm saying yes i would GLADLY go and vote on someone randomly if it means my gameplay is not being affected on a day to day basis

and their are other people out their that would be happy to vote on people as well, to say they are afk farming
at that point, if this "one person:" gets enough votes, then DE can take a look at it and see if the player is actively doing something malicious

who gives a damn if it nothing gets done imminently, if DE is looking at a player, and this player is afk farming, and they have a bunch of resources, guess what BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN

sometimes, it is just enough for the community to KNOW a system like this is in place, it doesn't have to be perfect but it does need to at least be reliable, just KNOWING that a system like this can "actually" catch you doing naughty things, rumors of players being banned for afk farming etc etc, will be enough for them to "not do it in the first place"

why am i pushing for this so much? well, because something you said in your previous post is find stupid, you said movement is the only way to prevent people from afk farming, well no that is not true at all, whatsoever, unless it is complex movement, making someone move to a certain ledge or area etc, you can EASILY have a script or whatever push your W key, and currently in game, that is pretty much all you would need just something to move your character forward 5 meters and then back

Edited December 21, 2023 by Quantum_rage

[(XBOX)K1jker]

I mean.. railjack has it.. so it's already in the game :) 

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Quantum_rage said:

once the player has been flagged, a message will be sent to "other random players online"

Stopping you right here. I see the problem with your thinking, and you've missed it because you're not thinking about how Warframe works at a fundamental level.

And missing it is completely understandable, don't feel bad about this.

Warframe is Peer To Peer.

What this means is that Warframe does not host the games on a server, the games are hosted on a player's computer and the other three players connect to that player as Clients.

That's why they have a Host Migration system for when the Host disconnects and they have to attempt to reconnect the other players, but sometimes it fails because those players can't host each other, and so they get dumped back into the Orbiter with no rewards.

So you literally cannot detect an AFK player and message the others in the rest of the Warframe, because they're only connected to the Host player, not the game's Servers. You functionally cannot. You cannot spectate another player's game when it's in progress without joining their session and putting more stress on the Host's computer.

This is why the old concept DE tried to do of 'Squad Link' and used Operation Scarlet Spear to test, didn't work. The net-code to connect two P2P games is not stable, not reliable, and often causes crashes in the game's connection to the client players.

I can see why you'd be so hopeful for your idea.

I really do.

But it can't work. Warframe just functionally cannot support that method because of the base way the game functions.

::Edit::

1 hour ago, Quantum_rage said:

why am i pushing for this so much? well, because something you said in your previous post is find stupid, you said movement is the only way to prevent people from afk farming,

I did not.

I said it's one of the ways.

Making players interact with the game, push buttons, move around, actually play the game. That's the goal.

Making players go pick things up forces them out of their AFK bubble, so it's one of the ways to prevent AFK behaviour.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Birdframe_Prime

[Tsukinoki]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)K1jker said:

I mean.. railjack has it.. so it's already in the game :) 

This is to get around one very important thing that doesn't happen in other missions:
Areas in railjack can be locked off to everyone else in the squad through various means!

You get a rare drop in a crewship?  Hopefully you don't blow it up in one of the various ways before everyone else in the squad can get onboard and pick it over, or hopefully before the troll thinks it would be funny that they are the only one to get the rare drop by blowing it up themselves....

That's the biggest reason railjack has that feature and why it's not needed anywhere else, because no where else can you effectively deny the rest of the squad from getting drops like you can in railjack.

1 hour ago, Quantum_rage said:

once the player has been flagged, a message will be sent to "other random players online" like allot of them, as many as it can or maybe just a bunch of random ones, that are, sitting in their orbiter, sitting around in their dojo. and also not in currently in a group, IE the notification will get sent to solo players

So basically:
"Hey, lets massively impact the suspected users bandwidth by forcing them into suddenly streaming the game!  Regardless of how well their internet or computer can handle that!"

Warframe is a P2P game, not a server based game.
In order to do what you're suggesting it will have to stream the game to all the players invited, or conversely the host will now have dozens upon dozens upon dozens of people suddenly connecting to their game....which would cause massive instability and a ton more issues!

You're idea simply isn't feasible with how warframe is architected to work.
You're "solution" is just causing more and more and more issues for people instead of actually just trying to prevent the issue in the first place.

[Quantum_rage]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Warframe is Peer To Peer.

34 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Warframe is a P2P game, not a server based game.

i know warframe is peer to peer, but would it really hurt performance that much to have a spectator mode and then let 2-3 extra people watch the game?
look you don't need 20 people spectating the game at the same time, you just need people to join, vote and then leave, it's pretty damn obvious from watching about 30 seconds of gameplay or less to figure out if they are afk farming or not, you can give them the option to vote, or after a minute or so, it will force the connected spectator to leave so a new spectator can join
this doesn't even need to be a thing where ALLOT of votes happen all in the one single session, they can rack up votes over time until they are, eventually just banned from the game, even if 5 people join and vote that they are afk farming, the next time they afk farm 5 more people join and vote for them, if their in public lobby's they might get votes as well, etc etc
at that point, the voting system is just a super simple and reliable way for the DE moderator team to go "alright who are we banning today" then simply, they go and find the people with the most votes, and start at the top of the list, inspecting their gameplay, their logs, whatever they can inspect, and if found guilty they get banned, if not found guilty the vote count is reset

fundamentally the biggest issue with this system would be detecting possible afk players in the first place, they would need an afk detection that is either very, very sensitive, to the point where it is giving allot of false negatives, or, you give the players the opportunity to spectate any game in progress and rely on the players to hunt down the possible afk farms

Edited December 21, 2023 by Quantum_rage

[Quantum_rage]

f me i am sick of people making up BS about why this wouldn't work without giving it 2 god damn seconds of thought, every single time any of you say something you have not bothered to ACTUALLY USE YOUR BRAIN and think about how it "COULD" work and think about "what would be good enough to work" instead you just seem to be trying to find the worst possible way to talk about the strategy to make the strategy sound worse then it actually is
you can not argue that, having a single extra connected user is going to horribly impact the performance of the game, hell they more then likely ALLREADY have a system in place, to let DE moderators inspect running games
honestly, you could solve this problem with like 1-2 DE official moderators
and then just use the community's eyes to point the DE moderators in the right direction
this could literally be done, if 1 single community member was allowed to spectate the game at a time, for a max of a minute or so, vote, then leave
you can have a little queuing system to let someone inspect a random match
then along comes the DE moderator to bring down the ban hammer, stop the match whatever they temp ban whatever they need to do

Edited December 21, 2023 by Quantum_rage

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Quantum_rage said:

i know warframe is peer to peer, but would it really hurt performance that much to have a spectator mode and then let 2-3 extra people watch the game?

Yes. DE said as much before.

They explained why when they implemented the basics for players not joining games after certain points of progress. It was literally causing problems.

I don't make this stuff up. I go based on what actually does work from exploring how P2P works since I started taking an interest in Warframe's methods nine whole years ago, and based on exactly what DE have actually told us about their decisions, the reasons behind those decisions, and their goals for the game.

When the makers of the game tell us 'We want to remove AFK tactics and stop punishing people for being falsely labelled as AFK' over five years ago, and stick to that statement for the time between then and now, it's fairly sure that it's their policy.

2 hours ago, Quantum_rage said:

fundamentally the biggest issue with this system would be detecting possible afk players in the first place

Yeah, and you don't need to if the methods for playing AFK are removed from the game. Made non-productive. Worse than just playing the game.

1 hour ago, Quantum_rage said:

then along comes the DE moderator to bring down the ban hammer, stop the match whatever they temp ban whatever they need to do

And again, you're missing the point.

DE don't want to ban people. They don't want to make it so people don't play their game. They actively profit from having more people in the game all at once.

This isn't about implementing bans of players. This isn't about moderating players actively. This isn't about implementing a system that punishes people.

This is a question of getting more players to play the game, actively and reactively. Making it more viable to play the game than to AFK the game. Making sure that the tactics that enable AFK gaming are not there in the first place to use.

If you can't grasp that basic concept, you aren't going to get anywhere in this discussion.

[Quantum_rage]

27 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

They explained why when they implemented the basics for players not joining games after certain points of progress. It was literally causing problems.

what problems? this is why i hate talking to you, you tell me a thing but your not giving information, for all i know you would be spouting a bunch of BS online, you expect me to trust that, your words are absolute? no you need to give me a reason, something to research, something to go off, more information I can use to try and find a better solution that accommodates for all the potential issues. people like you are the reason i hate going to work, so backwards thinking and negative shutting down any and every idea someone has without even giving them a god damn proper reason why it can't be done that way, because half the time, if you tell them "why it can't be done that way' their may in fact be a way to do everything everyone wants, without negatively effecting anyone, that is how you move forwards, that is how you solve issues

27 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Yeah, and you don't need to if the methods for playing AFK are removed from the game. Made non-productive. Worse than just playing the game.

this is the first good thing you have said, but you are missing the "how" portion of the solution giving a solution is all good and well but how will it be implemented? what needs to be removed? what new possible issues will that cause? and how can we work around or fix those new possible issues?
just saying "this will fix a thing" without actually THINKING about it does nothing, lets think about it, lets make a list of what would need to be changed to make afk farming worse then normal farming? that's the type of conversation that will make a difference

27 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And again, you're missing the point.

DE don't want to ban people. They don't want to make it so people don't play their game. They actively profit from having more people in the game all at once.

This isn't about implementing bans of players. This isn't about moderating players actively. This isn't about implementing a system that punishes people.

blah blah blah, I'm missing the point? i think your missing the point that i don't give a rats A$$ what DE wants to do to punish the players, i don't care i simply do not give a flying F how they want to punish players, i am just giving an example that is why i SPECIFICALLY added the part about them "doing whatever they need to do" because I DONT CARE I'm not here to solve the issue of how DE want's punish afk farming players you fing moron talking to you, is like smacking my head against a brick wall, 
your problem is, you can read the words, but you don't grasp the meaning of them, allot of people do this where they have their own "BIAS" towards how they are thinking, BIAS is a horrible thing in human nature and it is a pain in the ass, because people will nit pick all the possible negative things about someone else's argument, even if those things are completely irrelevant to the problem to begin with
i hate talking to people like you because the way you think is counter productive in every possible way, lazy, the easy way out, uugh, cmon, all your really saying here is "lets not bother because it would be too much of a bother"

Edited December 21, 2023 by Quantum_rage

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Quantum_rage said:

what problems? this is why i hate talking to you, you tell me a thing but your not giving information

Connection. Problems.

It's basic context when we're talking about Peer to Peer connections that the problems are with the connection. As in, it would disconnect clients, cause Host Migrations, and more.

1 hour ago, Quantum_rage said:

this is the first good thing you have said

I have literally said this nearly a dozen times in the comments I've made back to you. Over and over again. This is just you not reading them.

How? I've genuinely explained how. Did you just fail to read that either? Scroll back and have a read.

Your problem is that you're not even reading the words.

1 hour ago, Quantum_rage said:

blah blah blah

Oh, screw off. You're not worth my time. Blocking your comments now, because you're just trolling.

You don't care what DE wants? Then you're not getting anywhere.

You're deliberately trying to force this into a discussion on punishing players for AFK when it's not about that at all.

I am not biased, I'm reporting what DE has told us, you absolute troglodyte.

[Quantum_rage]

17 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It's basic context when we're talking about Peer to Peer connections that the problems are with the connection. As in, it would disconnect clients, cause Host Migrations, and more.

sounds like DE's problem to figure out their own networking issues before implementing anything like spectating mode, your point?

17 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I have literally said this nearly a dozen times in the comments

do apologies i should of said "the only good thing you ever said during this entire conversation"

17 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

trolling.

trolling? no your just pissing me off with how negative you are towards ideas, and how often you bring up NULL points about things that don't even matter in the slightest
"me" fix for afk farming so the idea in the thread title could be implemented, their is stuff that would clearly need to be overcome before the main subject of this thread could be considered 
"you" meh meh meh this guys talking about afk farming problems and not about the main thread

news flash, your not getting one without the other like it or not it's a topic that need to be discussed, no matter how much it hurts your sensitive feelings, if you can't handle it, leave

Edited December 21, 2023 by Quantum_rage

[Steel_Rook]

22 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

Another good example of why there aren't late joiners, yes.

There are reasons, certainly. I just feel that the design is so aggressive that it throws the baby out with the bathwater. The game goes so far out of its way to lock down any means of leeching off a team that it ends up affecting some legitimate players quite significantly.

[Hexerin]

On 2023-12-19 at 4:11 AM, Steel_Rook said:

Honestly, I feel DE's phobia of AFKers and leechers is harming the multiplayer experience.

Welcome to the reality of trying to combat negative behavior with automated systems or gameplay design, instead of doing the correct thing and having a moderation staff. This is literally a known thing, has been studied to death and back. However, modern devs simply don't care, because the general brainless population will CONSOOM regardless.

[Hobie-wan]

7 hours ago, Quantum_rage said:

i know warframe is peer to peer, but would it really hurt performance that much to have a spectator mode and then let 2-3 extra people watch the game?

Yes. The game is insanely fast paced, which means more data needs to get to and from everyone in the squad quickly  or else people will be rubberbanding badly. Sure battle royale games have more people in a round, but they're moving a lot more slowly. Warframe needs to track the enemies as well as players, so it isn't just 4 entities as well. Racing games also have people moving quickly, but they also make smoother adjustments to trajectory, so they can more easily use prediction to know where things will be 2 seconds from now and make adjustments as needed.

But anyway, clearly you have this idea stuck in your head, don't understand the problem, and aren't going to listen to reason.

[Quantum_rage]

8 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

Yes. The game is insanely fast paced, which means more data needs to get to and from everyone in the squad quickly  or else people will be rubberbanding badly. Sure battle royale games have more people in a round, but they're moving a lot more slowly. Warframe needs to track the enemies as well as players, so it isn't just 4 entities as well. Racing games also have people moving quickly, but they also make smoother adjustments to trajectory, so they can more easily use prediction to know where things will be 2 seconds from now and make adjustments as needed.

But anyway, clearly you have this idea stuck in your head, don't understand the problem, and aren't going to listen to reason.

none of this is relevant unless you can prove without a doubt that having a fifth player doing nothing but spectating the game, will be so bad on most peoples internet connection, that it would be impossible to do
honestly, if you can handle 4 people all "running around" and "doing stuff" while sending data to all those people
I'm sure you can figure out a way to send data to a fifth person
how about this, the "host:" could "only" send the player data and none of the enemy data
since apparently we are super super concerned about the hosts upload speed, and the fact that, adding another player is going to MAX OUT everyone's fing upload speed
give me a fing break, I'm sick of being the only fing person in here that is willing to bring up "a decent reason for why it could work"
I'm sorry if i just cant see how "having someone spectate your game" would be absolutely the worst god damn thing in the world for the hosts internet connection 
the way you word it makes it sound like, it is going to use twice their upload speed 3 times their upload speed, your being overdramatic and unreasonable about the whole thing, in reality, it might use like 10% more bandwidth at most if done correctly
remember your not even adding a fifth player to the squad, its not like your going from 4 actual connections to 5 actual connections
the fifth connection can be deprioritized, laggy, slow, have optimizations made to it, maybe they have a shorter enemy view distance, maybe you don't bother sending them in game crate locations on the map, maybe you don't bother sending them the fact that their are 50 thousand items on the ground, oh what was that? is the spectator mode now only using like 1% extra bandwidth because, they simply aren't sending the data they don't need **gasp** what a surprise
your can't just assume something is going to be a certain way, without someone trying it first. you need to consider all the possibilities before it is tried, and once again, as i have said previously, you need to consider what is the bare minimum that you would need, to make the system work
the bare minimum is your starting requirement when considering things like "how much bandwidth is this going to use"

for me bare minimum to detect a player who is scripting is simple. we grab map data, because that is a one time thing, once your client has the map data, you don't really need allot of map updates, you can ignore door states, boxes, caches and interactable items. spectators don't need to see those, and don't need to know what state they are in, so don't bother sending that data
you could honestly get rid of enemy data as well, I'm not here to analyze the movements of the enemies (considering their are hundreds of then, enemies would be one big thing that use the hosts upload speed since the host machine is the one that is spawning them, moving them etc etc
items on the ground, yeah surprise, spectators don't need to see items on the ground either

so we are left with, the players, and the ground, their current loot count and, the amount of time they have been in the game, and the text chat history
that is, quite literally all you need to detect a player that is scripting

it is really obvious to humans when someone is using a script to do a thing. or when someone is actually playing the game
because people playing the game will move around a little, they will look like they are aiming at things moving their camera in 'random" human like ways, moving around in random human like ways, they wont be doing repetitive robotic thing over and over again to the point of, it just being a script
if players are talking, human like, playing human like, moving human like, it is probably a legitimate game
if the players are all standing around, and they for some reason are doing the same set of things every half a minute or so? to the point of it being robotic, then they are scripting
again the community would not need to be 100% perfect at detecting that they are afk farming, it is fine if their are a few slips, for example, if people are just farming normally in a survival mission or something and they get "flagged" that is fine because
the point of this is to just point the DE moderators in the right direction
maybe voting for people will cause game logs to start being uploaded to the moderators so they can look at them and determine if they were afk farming, maybe the DE moderators can jump in straight away and see for themselves if they are afk farming
 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Quantum_rage

[Tsukinoki]

7 hours ago, Quantum_rage said:

I'm sorry if i just cant see how "having someone spectate your game" would be absolutely the worst god damn thing in the world for the hosts internet connection 

I went through the "trials"/"raids" warframe used to have.
Minimum 4 player squads, maximum 8.

Many, many, many, many hosts just couldn't handle the mission if the squad was above 4 people....so many infinite loading screens, so many failed host migrations, so much lost progress and lag and slowness and general horribleness even if there was only 5 people in the squad at the time.

Constant desyncs that lead to constant bugs that lead to constant fixes to try to make that game mode stable and more viable before DE pulled the plug because of how many issues it was causing constantly.

It sucked.

And your idea basically boils down to "Lets have 5, and maybe more, people randomly connect to the host at random times for random amount of times!"
I mean I can already feel the loading hitches as everything stutters for a few seconds every time one of the random observers pops into a game to see what is going on....and just hoping that it doesn't break a door locking you into a tile and unable to do anything except wait for the squad to get to the extraction and then sit there for 60 seconds.... (and news flash: These stutters and door breaks can occur in perfectly normal squads if someone joins in later than the start of the mission!  So you can already experience these!)

Edited December 22, 2023 by Tsukinoki

[Quantum_rage]

6 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

a basically boils down to "Lets have 5, and maybe more, people randomly connect to the host at random times for random amount of times!"
I mean I can already feel the loading hitches as everything stutters for a few seconds every time one of the random observers pops into a game to see what is going on....and just hoping that it doesn't break a door locking you into a tile and unable to do anything except wait for the squad to get to the extraction and then sit there for 60 seconds.... (and news flash: These stutters and door breaks can occur in perfectly normal squads if someone joins in later than the start of the mission!  So you can already experience these!)

and those are "fair concerns" however just because you can speculate that "that might happen" does not mean, it "will" happen
peoples internet has gotten allot better over the past, 10 years, I'm sure the devs at DE have gotten allot better at networking over the year
if they went back and "actually" worked on this as a solution, while also fixing the problem and making the spectating more seamless, making it not stutter when someone spectates etc it would be a valid solution
do you want me to go over the entire thing about how you could drastically reduce the amount of data that the server would need to sent to spectators since THEY ARN'T PLAYING THE GAME, you comparatively talking about past situations from a forgotten time with little to no relevance to what i am suggesting

look I'm not sitting here saying it will be easy, I'm not saying it will be possible, I'm not saying DE will be bothered to take the time to implement something like this, I'm not saying they WILL have to knowhow to get something like this to work. i am simply making a suggestion for a solution that would fix all the problems IF and THISIS A BIG IF it is implemented correctly
all of you can sit here and argue with me until your blue in the face but unless you bring up a valid reason for "why" this would not work, i really don't care about what anyone has to say on the matter
and when i say bring up a reason for "why" it would not work. i mean the core concept of the idea itself, not the problems it may cause
it is especially annoying when the problems you are all talking about are all 100% speculative, and based on stuff that may or may not even happen?

think about it, what's the worse that can happen, we suggest a fix to DE and they respond saying "no out networking team is too stupid to fix any of the issues or implement any of this and it would be too much time and effort etc"
or maybe they say "sure we will try it" try to implement it, fail and then the system never gets put into the game

these here are the WORSE case scenarios, are you all going to continue to moan on about these worst case scenarios being too scared of them for some unknown reason? am i the only sane person here?

best case scenario, we can an afk farming detection system that is more reliable, can be used for detecting things other then just afk farming, lets us implement ideas like "the title of this entire thread" and they can remove the 50 different stupid small systems to deter afk farming, which are also affecting normal players gameplay on a day to day basis????

why the actual F anyone here is going against this idea is BEYOND ME like, it is beyond stupidity that anyone is arguing against this without bring up a valid reason for why the "core concept" would not work

Edited December 22, 2023 by Quantum_rage

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

6 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

 

 

7 minutes ago, Quantum_rage said:

 

I actually like having leeches in my squad. They increase enemy spawns, and they're not killing/nuking enemies themselves so I can actually have fun and get kills. I like leeches more than nukers. 

When it gets to the point that I'm the only person playing with 3 AFK squadmates, then I'll start manually reporting them.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

I'm 100% with OP on this.  One of the best features of RJ is universal loot pickup.  This game would be so much better if they expanded on what is already present in some missions, which allow the team to multitask, and then made loot universal.  

Some folks get mad when people voca hunt, or plume hunt, but as long as they're not hindering mission progress by not being somewhere DE says they need to be (which is a design issue imo.  Multitasking should be encouraged.) but I personally love it when someone is voca hunting and I'm doing the main objective.  Objectives that require them to be present, not counting.  

There's already an issue of not everyone getting to play because someone is kill hogging at the front of the pack.  If they made spawn better in a few ways and made loot drops universal, teams would be able to spread out and everyone would get to play and it would be more efficient to be in a squad.  As it stands, it's usually slower to be in a squad for a lot of missions.