A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[chimp77]

So, for attachments, they would present in the game as blueprints - mission rewards, market items, etc. How does this prevent players for rushing the level to get the reward? Or the reward will depend on how the player perform in the mission? If so, how this system will work? What are the measures? Players will get different rewards depending on playstyle/most used weapon/whatever?

 

From what I understand, the attachments are not a direct upgrade, and thus are not necessary to progress as a player. This, combined with the fact that the player would be able to get attachments reliably means that there is much less pressure to get them and significantly less farming/grind. The reason players rush is because they're tired of running the same missions to get one mod. If the attachments could either be purchased directly or gained reliably, then players would enjoy themselves much more.

 

On melee weapons, how will the attachment system work? They are far more primitive than an advanced firearm, only two components, a blade and a handle (glaive has 3 blades, but it won't make any difference). If melee weapons will be as strong (in DPS) as firearms (and can be throwing ones, like the glaive, again), these will be OP against infested, but almost unused against corpus, and barely used against grineer. This is the same as the current situation, because we don't have too much stealth options, where melee weapons can shine.

 

It clearly says in the OP that there would be no attachments for melee, and instead the mods are completely replaced by the Fight Lab. The reason this works is because it gives the players freedom to customize their stances to suit their style of play while also providing the tools to experiment with and learn new combos which provide actually helpful bonuses like extra damage and health drain. These bonuses combined with each of the stances is what would make melee viable in all senses.

 

By mastery ranks, you wrote that player gets first 2 abilities on start, the remaining 2 on lvl 10. How will this help if you levelling up multiple warframes, and instead of have their abilities based on their level, you get ALL if you're having mastery rank high enough? Will this keep players playing? Where's the reward in that?

 

Again, if you read the OP he said level 10 not mastery 10.

 

With having strong enough weapons on the start, why would players need another? For aesthetic reasons? I for myself really like to play with bows as primary. How would you balance bow's strength against a burst rifle? If you make arrow damage so huge that it can compete with any firearm, wouldn't this imbalance the game? Everyone will take the Dread and the others.

 

How would you scale enemy levels from noob level gameplay to end tier gameplay, if (again, as you stated in the OP) "The gun should already be a lethal entity"? How will this motivate players to advance towards the endgame? Certain blueprints on higher tier levels? Wait, if they will be in the market also, won't this allow players to have a strong urge to just buy the attachments, craft them, and done? At first this will lead to resource farming, which is not by any means better than farming for mods. Then it will lead devs to move items into plat only, because of the huge number of quasi-free purchases, and this would make the game p2w immediately.

 

Firstly, why do you assume that the new system means that there will be weapon imbalance? If anything, the weapons will be easier to balance because they will do consistent damage across all players' games. Just look at the mods out there right now for comparison; Narrow minded in particular provides unlimited invisibility for Loki, but should that mod be nerfed just based on one warframe? How do you balance a huge number of mods around an even larger number of possible weapons/warframes they could go in? By standardizing the system you can avoid having to waste time testing every mod combo on every weapon/warframe to see if it can be abused.

 

Secondly, in the new system players become stronger by unlocking Mastery ranks to upgrade their stats, as well as unlock newer, more potent weapons/warframes. Also, leveling your individual weapons/warframes matters just as much as it does now. Attachments may not add directly to your killing power like Serration does, but they greatly affect the weapon by giving it more utility in different situations (same goes for the combos for melee). This means there is still a reason to level up gear and mastery ranks, and enemies would scale based on this measurable quantity rather than guesswork which results in https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/141060-major-bug-enemy-stat-values-incorrect-why-the-game-appears-harder-after-u11/#entry1674498'>egregious errors.

 

Once you have a way to easily separate players based on their progress in the game, you can design content around them without having to worry about whether they will be overpowered or underpowered; you will know exactly where each player stands damage wise, and can focus on making intelligent gameplay. The "end game" you are concerned about doesn't exist yet, but Zamboni's system provides a base for which DE can easily and effectively create wonderfully fun content around.

What I am proposing is a complete scrapping of the Mod Card system. In it's place, specific systems for the 3 most important aspects of the game: Warframes, Gunplay and Melee. If you create a solid foundation in these 3 systems, you can design enemies and content around them, everything else will fall into place.

 

Also, your pay to win comment makes no sense since the exact same is possible now. Either you can farm for your serration upgrade, or you can just buy it from others who already have it. What makes the OP p2w and the current system not?

Edited December 16, 2013 by chimp77

[Instinction]

I've already been here and +1 this post, but I want to do it a 1000x more.

[tmtke]

From what I understand, the attachments are not a direct upgrade, and thus are not necessary to progress as a player. This, combined with the fact that the player would be able to get attachments reliably means that there is much less pressure to get them and significantly less farming/grind. The reason players rush is because they're tired of running the same missions to get one mod. If the attachments could either be purchased directly or gained reliably, then players would enjoy themselves much more.

If there would be attachments which are affecting damage output somehow (primed/split chamber, elemental rounds, rate of fire, etc.) there will be minmaxing.

It clearly says in the OP that there would be no attachments for melee, and instead the mods are completely replaced by the Fight Lab. The reason this works is because it gives the players freedom to customize their stances to suit their style of play while also providing the tools to experiment with and learn new combos which provide actually helpful bonuses like extra damage and health drain. These bonuses combined with each of the stances is what would make melee viable in all senses.

No way. This would be a serious nerf. I want a huge, flaming/electrified/whatever mofo bastard sword. If I can't do that, where is the oh so precious freedom in modification? I should unlock fireblasting stance or attack? Man.

Again, if you read the OP he said level 10 not mastery 10.

Because increasing things like power damage or duration on a larger scale is tied to Mastery Precepts, players are free to experiment. It should also be noted that Warframes receive their powers without having to spend a single point on it. You can go about this several ways, but I feel that you should give the player their first two abilities at level 1, then the next two at level 10.

Then this section wasn't clear for me enough. Ok, then lets assume that these are item levels. Then why not first ability on start, additional one on every 10? And damage related to mastery. For what?

Firstly, why do you assume that the new system means that there will be weapon imbalance? If anything, the weapons will be easier to balance because they will do consistent damage across all players' games.

See above. No balance here.

Just look at the mods out there right now for comparison; Narrow minded in particular provides unlimited invisibility for Loki, but should that mod be nerfed just based on one warframe? How do you balance a huge number of mods around an even larger number of possible weapons/warframes they could go in?

Try to cast radial disarm with that crippled Loki :) That is one of the most useful abilities against lvl 50 grineers.

By standardizing the system you can avoid having to waste time testing every mod combo on every weapon/warframe to see if it can be abused. Secondly, in the new system players become stronger by unlocking Mastery ranks to upgrade their stats, as well as unlock newer, more potent weapons/warframes. Also, leveling your individual weapons/warframes matters just as much as it does now.

Again. Do not try to lock more stuff behind mastery rank ever. Leads to p2w.

Attachments may not add directly to your killing power like Serration does, but they greatly affect the weapon by giving it more utility in different situations (same goes for the combos for melee). This means there is still a reason to level up gear and mastery ranks, and enemies would scale based on this measurable quantity rather than guesswork which results in egregious errors.

Sorry to say, but this is not true. If the OP attachment system adds any bonus to damage, there will be minmaxing, and when all stuff were crafted for that weapon, the situation will be no different the current.

Once you have a way to easily separate players based on their progress in the game, you can design content around them without having to worry about whether they will be overpowered or underpowered; you will know exactly where each player stands damage wise, and can focus on making intelligent gameplay. The "end game" you are concerned about doesn't exist yet, but Zamboni's system provides a base for which DE can easily and effectively create wonderfully fun content around. Also, your pay to win comment makes no sense since the exact same is possible now. Either you can farm for your serration upgrade, or you can just buy it from others who already have it. What makes the OP p2w and the current system not?

This is the far frequently repeated thing from the OP. Why on earth will this be any of use regarding gameplay changes? The basic idea behind this was that if there are no imbalances, more time can go to other design issues. Problem is, that the OP's system has its own faults, which leads to the same "fix this, nerf that, buff my other gun" issues. If this new system is that good, it should not have any p2w or minmax issues. The current system is not pay to win, but you have to understand that slight difference between locking features to ranks and between grinding for stuff, which is just time consuming. This is no charity, it's a product. The battle pay system even opened up the possibility to have more potatoes and formas. Why do you constantly accusing DE with carelessness and other stuff, all I see is they working their asses off to let anyone enjoy their game, which is not a quick process.

Edited December 16, 2013 by tmtke

[chimp77]

If there would be attachments which are affecting damage output somehow (primed/split chamber, elemental rounds, rate of fire, etc.) there will be minmaxing.

 

Not necessarily. The difference between the mod system and the attachment system is that you get one attachment per slot. This means you can't stack damage attachments, only choose between a few. One player could be doing X amount of blast damage while another player could be doing X amount of gas damage. The choice isn't in how high you can get the number, it's in what specific damage types you pick from a select few.

 

No way. This would be a serious nerf. I want a huge, flaming/electrified/whatever mofo bastard sword. If I can't do that, where is the oh so precious freedom in modification? I should unlock fireblasting stance or attack? Man.

 

Perhaps that is an oversight, or I missed it in the OP. I agree, you should be able to upgrade your melee with some elemental damage/procs. Like you say, melee weapons could have "elemental" combos, or why not have each melee weapon get one or two "upgrade" slots where you can put certain elemental effects? If you went with the latter, you could develop a number of niche upgrades that accentuate melee in the areas that the combos/stances don't already. Either option sounds like a simple fix.

 

Then this section wasn't clear for me enough. Ok, then lets assume that these are item levels. Then why not first ability on start, additional one on every 10? And damage related to mastery. For what?

 

I think the idea behind it was that a new warframe could equip all four power mods by level 10 under the current system, so naturally the new system would follow that trend. I don't think having the powers so far spaced out would translate well, since the focus should be on personalizing your powers, not unlocking them. As far as tying base stat upgrades to mastery, it makes mastery rank mean something by giving a slight bonus to players who have dedicated a lot of time to the game, and further encourages players to "master" all that the game has to offer. What's wrong with rewarding players for their time?

 

Again. Do not try to lock more stuff behind mastery rank ever. Leads to p2w.

 

Please explain to me how mastery rank encourages p2w. Mastery rank requires you to play the game. You can pay to skip the farming for a new weapon, and you can pay to speed up your xp gain, but you cannot gain mastery just by paying money.

 

The current system is not pay to win, but you have to understand that slight difference between locking features to ranks and between grinding for stuff, which is just time consuming.

 

You do realize things are already locked to mastery right? The proposed system wouldn't be that different from the current one in that respect. Also, how is grinding for "stuff" different from grinding for xp to unlock gear? Both are time consuming actually, and like I said, players can buy "stuff" but can't buy mastery... so which is more p2w? Also, why does this even matter in a PvE game? I acknowledge it matters to some extent, but DE has to make money somehow so why are you so against paying for stuff?

 

Why do you constantly accusing DE with carelessness and other stuff, all I see is they working their asses off to let anyone enjoy their game, which is not a quick process.

 

I criticize because I care <3

 

I don't mean to offend anyone at DE, or anyone on these forums for that matter. I greatly appreciate what DE does and realize that they work incredibly long and hard to make the game as awesome as it is. The thing is, Warframe is still in beta, and could be significantly more awesome. DE expects us to give feedback on how to make the game better, and that is what Zamboni and I are doing. You can disagree with me, just don't take my opinion as an insult towards the devs; that's not my intention at all.

Edited December 16, 2013 by chimp77

[tmtke]

Not necessarily. The difference between the mod system and the attachment system is that you get one attachment per slot. This means you can't stack damage attachments, only choose between a few. One player could be doing X amount of blast damage while another player could be doing X amount of gas damage. The choice isn't in how high you can get the number, it's in what specific damage types you pick from a select few.

Yes, you can't stack them, but that doesn't mean that there will be no minmaxing. Also, players will choose the best gun in the system, because by adding more than one item for each type will cause stat differences, therefore there will be always a Brakk or a Soma. Also, with the restricted number of mod slots also limits elemental procs. For example I have an Aklex, which is optimized for puncture dmg, reload speed and magazine capacity, apart for the basic Hornet Strike. There is not so much room for others, and it does a fairly good damage on grineer, but a pain in the &amp;#&#33; against corpus. How would this weapon converts to the proposed system? To make it reliable, it should have more basic damage, but being a fairly low level gun, against 1-10 lvl enemies it would be OP. With attachments for increasing rof/reload/mag size, it's just brutal. And if mastery would increase damage, not just this weapon will get more and more brutal, all of your arsenal gets bonuses. Like, having additional pistol mastery skill for example.

Perhaps that is an oversight, or I missed it in the OP. I agree, you should be able to upgrade your melee with some elemental damage/procs. Like you say, melee weapons could have "elemental" combos, or why not have each melee weapon get one or two "upgrade" slots where you can put certain elemental effects? If you went with the latter, you could develop a number of niche upgrades that accentuate melee in the areas that the combos/stances don't already. Either option sounds like a simple fix.

Which is pretty much the same as the mod system, just another name. And we are balancing the system, which is the opposite of what the system tries to achieve...

I think the idea behind it was that a new warframe could equip all four power mods by level 10 under the current system, so naturally the new system would follow that trend. I don't think having the powers so far spaced out would translate well, since the focus should be on personalizing your powers, not unlocking them. As far as tying base stat upgrades to mastery, it makes mastery rank mean something by giving a slight bonus to players who have dedicated a lot of time to the game, and further encourages players to "master" all that the game has to offer. What's wrong with rewarding players for their time?

How large is the slight bonus? Why I can't use abilities by default (in a more limited way)? And btw the current auras helping the long term players to upgrade a new frame to 10-14 mod slots right away. I don't like them, because I personally think that auras are an exploit, but it does just the same (rifle amp).

Please explain to me how mastery rank encourages p2w. Mastery rank requires you to play the game. You can pay to skip the farming for a new weapon, and you can pay to speed up your xp gain, but you cannot gain mastery just by paying money.

Grinding for mastery will lead to maximize ingame XP gain, this will lead to having optimized builds for doing the most rewarding missions (remember xini), which can be done by buying the best weapon/attachment combos. Currently the progress depends on different things: resources, mods, blueprint drops/availability. Only the weapons are behind mastery rank wall, but it's not a big deal.

You do realize things are already locked to mastery right?

Yes but it seemed irrelevant to me. Only at the beginning has it caused a bit of headache, but over some mastery level this wasn't an issue.

I criticize because I care <3

I don't mean to offend anyone at DE, or anyone on these forums for that matter. I greatly appreciate what DE does and realize that they work incredibly long and hard to make the game as awesome as it is. The thing is, Warframe is still in beta, and could be significantly more awesome. DE expects us to give feedback on how to make the game better, and that is what Zamboni and I are doing. You can disagree with me, just don't take my opinion as an insult towards the devs; that's not my intention at all.

+1 well said. I think they will solve the problems, it's just an enormous task, where they have to deal with priorities, milestones, player arguments, glitches, bugs and so on. They have presented a basic concept, always detailing stuff with new and old tilesets, and so on. Of course, actual gameplay elements are the most apparent for the players, but they're just a slice of the bread :) Edited December 17, 2013 by tmtke

[chimp77]

Yes, you can't stack them, but that doesn't mean that there will be no minmaxing. Also, players will choose the best gun in the system, because by adding more than one item for each type will cause stat differences, therefore there will be always a Brakk or a Soma. Also, with the restricted number of mod slots also limits elemental procs. For example I have an Aklex, which is optimized for puncture dmg, reload speed and magazine capacity, apart for the basic Hornet Strike. There is not so much room for others, and it does a fairly good damage on grineer, but a pain in the &amp;#&#33; against corpus. How would this weapon converts to the proposed system? To make it reliable, it should have more basic damage, but being a fairly low level gun, against 1-10 lvl enemies it would be OP. With attachments for increasing rof/reload/mag size, it's just brutal. And if mastery would increase damage, not just this weapon will get more and more brutal, all of your arsenal gets bonuses. Like, having additional pistol mastery skill for example.

 

There will always be min/maxers sure, but with the attachments setup, you can get away with more than just stacking damage mods like many do now by limiting the amount of damage attachments you can use at once as well as limiting the availability of elemental attachments. Also, I think the OP is with you on the point that guns should get progressively better, not just start off at their max potential. I refer to the quote below.

 

Mods should not make the gun. The gun should should already be a lethal entity. Because of Serration and the power of the mods currently, it gives an excuse to release less than potent firearms. If the guns themselves were already built to be powerful and enhanced through leveling as well as attachments that complimented specific play styles, it would be better. Cutting fat from the drop tables even further and empowering people to use guns they like, rather that what is the best; the heart of this concept.

 

Which is pretty much the same as the mod system, just another name. And we are balancing the system, which is the opposite of what the system tries to achieve...

 

Yeah, except for the part where you can customize your combos and moveset haha. Regardless, I agree that the systems are really very similar. However, the OP's system doesn't aim to balance the game per se, just make it more fun and rewarding. Regardless of which system you look at, overpowered weapons will still be overpowered weapons. The main attraction of the system proposed here is the reduction of RNG and removal of "false customization" by making your choice of upgrades, combos, and stances matter. Personally, I think that it will be easier to balance weapons after switching to this system, but that's just my opinion; either way weapons that need balancing will get it eventually.

 

How large is the slight bonus? Why I can't use abilities by default (in a more limited way)? And btw the current auras helping the long term players to upgrade a new frame to 10-14 mod slots right away. I don't like them, because I personally think that auras are an exploit, but it does just the same (rifle amp).

 

It would have to be balanced of course. I couldn't come up with an exact number myself, but I wouldn't think that a mastery 10 player should get a major advantage over a newbie. It would just be nice to have something to show for all those mastery points...

 

As for the abilities, I agree. Starting with weaker versions of your powers at first and leveling them up as you level up the frame would be cool. Also not sure how the auras would work in the OP's system, but there may be room for some team buffs in the trees. I also agree that the auras leave quite a bit to be desired right now.

 

Grinding for mastery will lead to maximize ingame XP gain, this will lead to having optimized builds for doing the most rewarding missions (remember xini), which can be done by buying the best weapon/attachment combos. Currently the progress depends on different things: resources, mods, blueprint drops/availability. Only the weapons are behind mastery rank wall, but it's not a big deal.

 

You just touched on the major point of contention throughout the OP. You say progress depends on resources, mods, and availability of new gear; all of these are determined and distributed randomly. The OP and I are just suggesting you move the measure of progression away from random elements and towards more reliable ones like mastery rank and affinity. 

 

You may be thinking: "but people will just want to farm affinity in the new system and we'll be back where we started" which is true... unless DE changes how we gain affinity. If players were rewarded for more than just kills and completing missions, if there was an incentive to dwell in the mission and partake in other activities, then rushing wouldn't be as big of a problem.

 

"So why use xp as an incentive instead of resources, mods, blueprints?"

 

Because xp is reliable and directly contributes to making the player more powerful. Good luck relying on the random mods you get from your first mission on Mercury, because there is a good chance of getting mods that are useless, and then a chance of getting mods that may be useful, but not for your personal playstyle. In the new system, affinity levels you up, and allows you the freedom to choose which upgrades you want to focus on right away, and if you want to change your mind later, you will have that freedom.

 

+1 well said. I think they will solve the problems, it's just an enormous task, where they have to deal with priorities, milestones, player arguments, glitches, bugs and so on. They have presented a basic concept, always detailing stuff with new and old tilesets, and so on. Of course, actual gameplay elements are the most apparent for the players, but they're just a slice of the bread :)

 

Haha thanks. I do have confidence in DE, but it's very easy to lose your patience with them which is no fault of theirs; they really do have a ton on their plates! Honestly, I'm excited for the new melee combo system they are working on, the new mission types, and really am looking forward to more frame buffs/balancing... they just can't get here fast enough! :P

[gell]

 I am not correct in my suggestions, there are other ways of fixing it. But I am correct in my analyses of the current system. The way the current Mod Card system exists cannot be sustained. If they tweaked it, maybe. But when your concept is inherently flawed, leaning on it to support an entire game is foolish.

 

With that said, I suggest you or others propose ways to tweak the current system to work then. Semantics of whether this is alpha or beta aside, it definitely has a cash shop and people have paid for many things based on what they were at the time. Things get tweaked here and there; it happens in fully released games too. That's rebalancing. But there's no way a rehaul of this magnitude would fly. Personally, I don't agree with most of the suggestions anyway, but that's beside the point.

 

You said it yourself: The current mod system might be sustainable if they tweaked it. I don't find the mod system to be inherently flawed (that would mean it's unfixable). It's fixable. The energy values need a few passes. The percentages need a few passes. They might have to make some changes such as adding utility card slots so they don't share the same energy pool as the MORE DAMAGE mods. Other than that, I don't think a ton of work needs to be done. It's not a lot of work, but it's iterative, so it will take time.

 

I was just addressing the frame mod system, btw. You had a lot of ideas in your post and while they all fall under the umbrella of reworking Warframe, they actually distract from each other being posted in the same space. I'll see where they are going with the melee system. Guns could use some more mods/options that can result in the same idea as your weapon suggestion.

 

The mod card system is a perfectly good system. It allows for customized builds, and that silly example of someone going in with 10 mods poorly synergetic is technically possible, but so is someone running around looking at the ground all the time. Does DE need to make sure your view is always facing the horizon line too? It doesn't need to be dumbed down so hard that people just progress a little linear tree that you've set up. It's not to say your system couldn't work for a game ever. It's just that it's unnecessary to rework Warframe so hard that it throws everything out when there is a system that exists that already works, it just needs improvement.

[ScorchedIce]

I suppose devs have already knowledge of this post? it would be a real shame if they wouldn't take it in mind, because ITS PURE GENIUS.
Everything is so true, i couldn't agree more with OP. well done sir, well done, i really hope that DE realizes how much we need a drastic change like you suggest.

[ensignvidiot]

The mod card system is a perfectly good system. It allows for customized builds, and that silly example of someone going in with 10 mods poorly synergetic is technically possible, but so is someone running around looking at the ground all the time.

 

This isn't TRUE customization. You'd be hard pressed to find a Single Tenno on the whole boards without a High Level Serration, Hornet Strike, Point Blade, Pressure Point, and Focus. 5 mods that you NEED to have if you have any hope of doing any real damage now in DMG 2.0. All Warframe 'low end' damage abilities (The slot 1) will SHARPLY decrease in effectiveness past enemy level 15-20 without focus. And player survivability will also decrease at the shame sharp rate without some combination of Vigor, Vitality, Redirection, and Fast reacharge (generally someone has at the minimum 2 out of the 3) that's a minimum of 3 slots already taken. And while some players sacrifice a power to get more utility or survivability (I drop freeze off of frost and bounce off of Vauban for Corrupted mods), on the whole you are forced to have 2-5 Must Have mods in your warframe, sentinel, and all weapons if you wish to have a hope of surviving long enough to deal damage to the enemy (and kill them in a reasonable amount of time.)

 

Currently, its no better than a skill tree. Actually, its slightly worse, as it tries to hold up the illusion of having total customization.

[theGreatZamboni]

With that said, I suggest you or others propose ways to tweak the current system to work then. Semantics of whether this is alpha or beta aside, it definitely has a cash shop and people have paid for many things based on what they were at the time. Things get tweaked here and there; it happens in fully released games too. That's rebalancing. But there's no way a rehaul of this magnitude would fly. Personally, I don't agree with most of the suggestions anyway, but that's beside the point.

 

You said it yourself: The current mod system might be sustainable if they tweaked it. I don't find the mod system to be inherently flawed (that would mean it's unfixable). It's fixable. The energy values need a few passes. The percentages need a few passes. They might have to make some changes such as adding utility card slots so they don't share the same energy pool as the MORE DAMAGE mods. Other than that, I don't think a ton of work needs to be done. It's not a lot of work, but it's iterative, so it will take time.

 

I was just addressing the frame mod system, btw. You had a lot of ideas in your post and while they all fall under the umbrella of reworking Warframe, they actually distract from each other being posted in the same space. I'll see where they are going with the melee system. Guns could use some more mods/options that can result in the same idea as your weapon suggestion.

 

The mod card system is a perfectly good system. It allows for customized builds, and that silly example of someone going in with 10 mods poorly synergetic is technically possible, but so is someone running around looking at the ground all the time. Does DE need to make sure your view is always facing the horizon line too? It doesn't need to be dumbed down so hard that people just progress a little linear tree that you've set up. It's not to say your system couldn't work for a game ever. It's just that it's unnecessary to rework Warframe so hard that it throws everything out when there is a system that exists that already works, it just needs improvement.

 

You didn't even read. Like at all.

 

 

It speaks volumes to the volatile nature and unpredictability of the entire system. Just look at the first paragraph of the OP. What kind of mods will exist 2 years from now? That is something no other proposed system has thought about. While people are thinking of retooling mods or tying them to Master Rank, I address this issue of stagnation and power creep. What happened with that mod combo, is exactly what happened with the Brakk. It was too powerful so they nerfed it. It was a way of exploiting the systems of play to min-max and trivialize content.That combo would be a non-issue if PVP was not in the game. It made the inflated numbers and poorly designed content bearable. But even without PVP it creates railroading. They should have never have given the player that kind of power, only to take it away. While it hurt the game, why it happened speaks volumes to the notion that the Mod Card system is unsustainable. Apparently they are so unorganized, so far removed from the actual game they let that kind of power slip right through their QA testing and into the game.

 

My take is about the same as yours. I understand why they did it, but it never should have happened. This kind of uncontrolled choice makes designing content a guessing game. My system stops this kind of nonsense. It would allow them to focus on content rather than using mods as a crutch for content. Again going back to people thinking my idea is too much work; Corrupted Mods were already scraping the bottom of the barrel. So there are two options if people want to keep mods:

 

1. Stop releasing mods. That way we can stop the power creep and stagnation. So you can then have your mods tied to achievements or Mastery Rank. Then the game will slowly decline due to lack of choice. Mediocre Warframes like Valkyr will continue to be the driving force of retention. Content will continue to be built around the idea of randomness and grind.

 

2. Keep releasing mods and expedite the decline. More and more useless or power creep mods will be released polluting the RNG to the point where obtaining what you want becomes nigh impossible. If you tie mods to Mastery Rank or achievements, you will need to indefinitely create achievements and increase the Mastery Rank to allow people to obtain these mods. Even with a combination of drops and rewarded mods, it will not stop the stagnation.

 

This is what frustrates me. People are not taking the entire idea into account. It covers all the issues and fixes them. It is such a large change because the current system is irredeemable. If you create a foundation that offers a great deal of choice, something that is not random, doesn't need to be updated every month, something that rewards dedication and is fun because it makes you want to play/experiment; you can focus on making content that makes using these systems fun. Mods=/=Content.

There is no confusion in what I feel about the Mod Card system. You misread what I said in the OP and in my following posts. Then proceeded to make a post centered around your failure to comprehend what was said. I understand your comments on segregating the posts. I have said I will be making separate threads to expound on the ideas multiple times. Though doing so is taking a lengthy amount of time, as I do all of this in my free time.

Edited December 17, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[ensignvidiot]

Clocking at just under 20K views, I hope at least 1% was from DE and other people high up on the food chain, it would be nice for the game to lose the nickname of Warfarm

 

I love sinking hours into this game (200 and counting), and the DE showed they have the guts to try some radical, base breaking thing (Damage 2.0).

 

I hope in the next scheduled livesteam we get a mention that they are looking into the foundation of warframe after this next bag of shinies... (which admittedly, im excited for... I love Paladins)

[Blatantfool]

The legend must never die.

[tmtke]

There will always be min/maxers sure, but with the attachments setup, you can get away with more than just stacking damage mods like many do now by limiting the amount of damage attachments you can use at once as well as limiting the availability of elemental attachments. Also, I think the OP is with you on the point that guns should get progressively better, not just start off at their max potential.

 

Ok, but then why remove the mod system, buffing base damage, nerfing (seriously) damage mods and adding per level damage bonuses, we are on the same spot without rewriting anything. (Which I was suggesting in my own threads already).

 

 

Yeah, except for the part where you can customize your combos and moveset haha. Regardless, I agree that the systems are really very similar. However, the OP's system doesn't aim to balance the game per se, just make it more fun and rewarding. Regardless of which system you look at, overpowered weapons will still be overpowered weapons. The main attraction of the system proposed here is the reduction of RNG and removal of "false customization" by making your choice of upgrades, combos, and stances matter. Personally, I think that it will be easier to balance weapons after switching to this system, but that's just my opinion; either way weapons that need balancing will get it eventually.

 

With only removing ability mods from the drop tables would remove a huge amount of RNG issues (64 from 270, with the new frame introduced its's 68 from 274). Also, in terms of gameplay, I think that it's a serious issue when a lower tier mission won't scale to the overally player level. It was said that matchmaking system already was tweaked to balance player levels in an automatic session, why not scale difficulty with that? This way I can do high level missions on any planet, newbies can still have lvl 2-3 grineers on the same maps.

 

It would have to be balanced of course. I couldn't come up with an exact number myself, but I wouldn't think that a mastery 10 player should get a major advantage over a newbie. It would just be nice to have something to show for all those mastery points...

 

My initiative was that on each mastery test you'll be able to choose from different options. Skip the test, do the test for a reward or do the more difficult test for higher reward(s). These rewards can be rare stuff, or generally needed ones (potatoes, slots, forma, etc.).

 

As for the abilities, I agree. Starting with weaker versions of your powers at first and leveling them up as you level up the frame would be cool. Also not sure how the auras would work in the OP's system, but there may be room for some team buffs in the trees. I also agree that the auras leave quite a bit to be desired right now.

 

In my lenghty thread I was trying to solve this, in a form of a special mod slot, where you can power up these items as they are now, but there the whole system uses a fully different approach to fuel up mods.

 

 

You just touched on the major point of contention throughout the OP. You say progress depends on resources, mods, and availability of new gear; all of these are determined and distributed randomly. The OP and I are just suggesting you move the measure of progression away from random elements and towards more reliable ones like mastery rank and affinity. 

 

You may be thinking: "but people will just want to farm affinity in the new system and we'll be back where we started" which is true... unless DE changes how we gain affinity. If players were rewarded for more than just kills and completing missions, if there was an incentive to dwell in the mission and partake in other activities, then rushing wouldn't be as big of a problem.

 

"So why use xp as an incentive instead of resources, mods, blueprints?"

 

Because xp is reliable and directly contributes to making the player more powerful. Good luck relying on the random mods you get from your first mission on Mercury, because there is a good chance of getting mods that are useless, and then a chance of getting mods that may be useful, but not for your personal playstyle. In the new system, affinity levels you up, and allows you the freedom to choose which upgrades you want to focus on right away, and if you want to change your mind later, you will have that freedom.

 

This was the main ide behind my thoughts also. If we need skill based gameplay, and more influence for getting the XP/affinity, then we should utilize the things we do and we get XP for. If the game system can do achievements based on what you do and how much you do it, then we should use this data (and even extend this) to power up your items and mods.

 

Haha thanks. I do have confidence in DE, but it's very easy to lose your patience with them which is no fault of theirs; they really do have a ton on their plates! Honestly, I'm excited for the new melee combo system they are working on, the new mission types, and really am looking forward to more frame buffs/balancing... they just can't get here fast enough! :P

 

 

 

Me too, maybe I have more patience because I pretty much know how it works from the inside (not DE, but game/software developement in general). This is why I'm saying that a complete overhaul isn't necessary (and not just risky, but the worst option), and the current system can be tweaked to have everything in place. Like what I suggested in my shorter post, where the stat modifier mods can be crafted into the item permanently, removing stackiness (is that a word? :)), must have mods, formaing, and all the annoying aspects on what the whole OP is based (except maybe RNG, but that can be solved separatedly).

 

[Shifty_Shuffler]

Wow! What a read! Epic post OP.

 

Haven't had time to read through all 31 pages of responses though :P

 

My only suggestion for compensating players for all their mods and time invested in them would be to give all players a temporary currency that can be used to upgrade their gear and purchase weapon attachments. Doesn't solve the trade dilemma though, but i guess refunds could be done.

 

Also this system would probably bring DE more revenue from sales of Affinity Boosters, as they will be more integral to this type of system.

[ThePresident777]

I, and trillions of others, used to play Team Fortress Classic for YEARS.  No levels.  No inventory.  6 classes, ~20 weapons, static loadouts, no customization, no STAMINA(geriatric nijas in space woohoo), ~5 maps.  FOR YEARS.  When something is good, it just is.  Of course, the graphics got old, and other advances in other games came out.  But, lets not underestimate simplicity and getting the core experience just right.  If they had kept updating the game, we might still be playing it now.  Yet, somewhere along the way, I think the gaming industry has strayed.  Slowness, clunkyness, complications, falling short of the mark, became the industry standard.

[Neruell]

Remove drops, ok, but how can you create a satisfying experience with gameplay in warframe?
 

Edited December 17, 2013 by Neruell

[Shifty_Shuffler]

Stop comparing PVP games to this.

[chimp77]

Ok, but then why remove the mod system, buffing base damage, nerfing (seriously) damage mods and adding per level damage bonuses, we are on the same spot without rewriting anything. (Which I was suggesting in my own threads already).

 

With only removing ability mods from the drop tables would remove a huge amount of RNG issues (64 from 270, with the new frame introduced its's 68 from 274). Also, in terms of gameplay, I think that it's a serious issue when a lower tier mission won't scale to the overally player level. It was said that matchmaking system already was tweaked to balance player levels in an automatic session, why not scale difficulty with that? This way I can do high level missions on any planet, newbies can still have lvl 2-3 grineers on the same maps.

 

Why remove the mod system? For the same reasons outlined in the beginnings of the OP. After skimming your thread, I more or less agree with your ideas for dealing with the issues raised here, but I still think that the mod system should just be removed completely for many reasons.

 

I agree, ability mods being removed from the drop tables would solve so many problems, but going on what the OP said, think about what mods we will have in the next year or two? Even if you remove 60 ability mods, DE will keep making more and more and more, which will inevitably make them all equally impossible to get. Like Zamboni said...

 

It speaks volumes to the volatile nature and unpredictability of the entire system. Just look at the first paragraph of the OP. What kind of mods will exist 2 years from now? That is something no other proposed system has thought about. While people are thinking of retooling mods or tying them to Master Rank, I address this issue of stagnation and power creep. What happened with that mod combo, is exactly what happened with the Brakk. It was too powerful so they nerfed it. It was a way of exploiting the systems of play to min-max and trivialize content.That combo would be a non-issue if PVP was not in the game. It made the inflated numbers and poorly designed content bearable. But even without PVP it creates railroading. They should have never have given the player that kind of power, only to take it away. While it hurt the game, why it happened speaks volumes to the notion that the Mod Card system is unsustainable. Apparently they are so unorganized, so far removed from the actual game they let that kind of power slip right through their QA testing and into the game.

 

My take is about the same as yours. I understand why they did it, but it never should have happened. This kind of uncontrolled choice makes designing content a guessing game. My system stops this kind of nonsense. It would allow them to focus on content rather than using mods as a crutch for content. Again going back to people thinking my idea is too much work; Corrupted Mods were already scraping the bottom of the barrel. So there are two options if people want to keep mods:

 

1. Stop releasing mods. That way we can stop the power creep and stagnation. So you can then have your mods tied to achievements or Mastery Rank. Then the game will slowly decline due to lack of choice. Mediocre Warframes like Valkyr will continue to be the driving force of retention. Content will continue to be built around the idea of randomness and grind.

 

2. Keep releasing mods and expedite the decline. More and more useless or power creep mods will be released polluting the RNG to the point where obtaining what you want becomes nigh impossible. If you tie mods to Mastery Rank or achievements, you will need to indefinitely create achievements and increase the Mastery Rank to allow people to obtain these mods. Even with a combination of drops and rewarded mods, it will not stop the stagnation.

 

This is what frustrates me. People are not taking the entire idea into account. It covers all the issues and fixes them. It is such a large change because the current system is irredeemable. If you create a foundation that offers a great deal of choice, something that is not random, doesn't need to be updated every month, something that rewards dedication and is fun because it makes you want to play/experiment; you can focus on making content that makes using these systems fun. Mods=/=Content.

 

Seriously, Zamboni is right on track I feel. As long as the mod system exists, it causes headaches for DE. How to balance each mod for every frame/weapon, how to balance every mod with each other mod, how to avoid redundancy, how to avoid RNG gripes, how to actually promote unique builds rather than railroaded min/max builds being the standard for everyone, etc. All of this draws dev time away from actually engaging content and in fact promotes unintelligent, unoriginal gameplay. Content based on such a system is bound to be hollow and lacking any real depth or satisfaction, which is what we have now. Why wouldn't you want to ditch such a flawed system?

 

As for scaling missions to player level... that is another major problem with the mod system in its current form. Player level means literally nothing when the player's power and potential revolves around random mod drops. DE can't scale the game around the random chance that someone will find a serration mod early on, max it, and equip it every time. Again, I prefer player progression to be in the hands of the player, not RNG. How much easier would it be to scale Mercury missions to a player with level 30 gear in the new system, because once something reaches level 30, you know how powerful it will be. With trees, attachments, and combos, you get players who are powerful in specialized/personalized ways, but you still get an accurate gauge as to how powerful a level 30 weapon/frame will be, since they all have the same opportunities from the start.

 

This is why I'm saying that a complete overhaul isn't necessary (and not just risky, but the worst option), and the current system can be tweaked to have everything in place. Like what I suggested in my shorter post, where the stat modifier mods can be crafted into the item permanently, removing stackiness (is that a word? :)), must have mods, formaing, and all the annoying aspects on what the whole OP is based (except maybe RNG, but that can be solved separatedly).

 

I respectfully disagree. The current system may be salvageable, but is it really worth it? I admire your dedication to saving the mod system, and there is no doubt in my mind that DE would sooner attempt your solution than the huge change proposed here, but personally I think it will only stall the bigger issues with the mod system and the issues with the content designed around such a system.

[at35z]

Stop comparing PVP games to this.

 

Exactly. This is not an MMORPG, this is a TPS with story.

[theGreatZamboni]

The bottom half of this page has me scratching my head.

 

Also, the weapons thread is most likely coming today. I need to format it. Keeping in mind people who want to discuss high concept ideas, don't like to read (which is ridiculous).

Edited December 17, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[KF5AQX]

I agree 100% with everything shown here.

[Nothus]

This is an amazing presentation you have done! Very thorough and well illustrated.

 

I think this would be a great idea for a game system, but unfortunately i think it's too much of a change right now.

 

Personally i like the mod system, and would like to see it's flaws fixed rather than scrapping it.

 

The flaws as brought up here that i think can be fixed are:

 

1. Necessary mods

     Serration, point blank, focus, hornet strike, pressure point, vitality, redirection and other damage or health boosting mods need to be made an automatic part of leveling each weapon and frame. Right now we have realistically only 1 or 2 mod slots per weapon and maybe 1 per frame that we can actually safely play with.

 

2. Boring mods

    Thanks to needing very specific base damage and health booster mods we tend to have very boring mods replicated heavily throughout our arsenal. we really shouldn't have nearly the level of similarity between main, sidearm and melee that we currently have. This is solvable by making many of the basic type of mods widely applicable. Make just ONE cold mod, One Fire mod and so on.

 

3. Elemental Necessity

    Since elemental mods boost damage, they are a requirement on any weapon just like the base damage boosters. That needs to be changed so as to free up more room for choice. Elemental mods should be changed to just be procs. so a fire mod just allows for setting things on fire. Elemental resistances and weaknesses then are to the proc chance, and effect. so cold vulnerability makes it more likely to slow the enemy and makes them much more slowed when it works.

 

I think this could fix the system, instead of completely replacing it.

 

I still am very glad you posted your idea though. it's a great set of ideas. reminds me a bit of defiance when it comes to guns. Also the melee rework coming soon might make some of the combo ideas and such either unnecessary of actually in the game. we'll see :)

Edited December 17, 2013 by Nothus

[ObviousLee]

*snip*

never have i sat down and read through a text wall with such excitement.

 

this entire system. my god it would give me a REASON to truly test out all the frames and weapons i have, instead of leveling them for mastery.

 

DE, please look at this with the utmost intensity. THIS would keep me hooked in missions instead of clan and region chat.

 

zamboni, thank you for the amazing read, i hope they implement this.

[WSkD]

This is the best suggestion I have ever read (of all games I have played so far).

 

MEGA idea! I hope DE take their time to read it, too. ^;.;^

[ukhooligan]

Amazing post zamboni really got a conversation going on about the state of this game,Im a bit late reading it all so only got up to page 10 but theres a ton of great ideas in here.

 

But tbh,as good as your post is zamboni it would be a drastic change.I think DE have the foundations of this game in place now and just need too tweak it here and there....lol I dont envy their job at all especially after reading some of the feedback on your post zamboni.

 

But something needs too change,the grind mechanic will see this great game slowly wither away and die.And I for one am bored too death of mates that play saying how powerful X gun is and its had X number of formas,I can do X amount of DPS,come see how tough I am in the dojo........

 

I remember when I first started playing and it was all about being a space ninja,the constant grind has seemed too have taken over from the fun of the actual game.Surely DE see this,they have all the stats but  this system is earning em big bucks it is a free to play game after all so a grind is always gonna be a big part of it.