A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[gamefreak9149]

I do like alot of your ideas.

[CBAROG]

Ummm, don't know what kind of rock you have been living under, but we already have a design Council that people could join if they purchased a Founder's package of high-enough rank when it was availible during a large portion of this open Beta.

I know that. I'm talking about really doing something. No offence, but DC doesn't have any real power to influence the game. Lots of people will agree to help DE. For free. They could help with new ideas, something that DE actually lacks. Not new weapons, but someshing like Zamboni suggested. The idea itself is great so they could rework the rework and then it could be implemented. Rework the bosses, add Hard mode etc etc.

 

IF the boss catches you. 

That's what I'm talking about. No matter how hard the boss is it we can kill it. With some effort of course.

[Zirion_Bk]

It's not only the mods'd fault , there will always be mods that are slighty to much better than some others , and the current system just doesn't offer much of the need of diversity to the game . There will still be no reason for me not to slap all the "core mods" ( powerstrenght/duration/damage/firerate...etc ) to my gears even when they are nerfed to oblivion .

 

That's the same with attachments. Let me give you an example: You have a braton, where you have one slot for a core and one slot for a magazine. And you have a firerate core, a electric core, a slash round magazine and a fire magazine. Now what would you choose? More firerate and some slash damage would be nice, but those are overshadowed by the radiation element the electric core and the fire magazine combines into. Those attachments are simply better as they give you a new damage type in your weapon with it's own modifiers. So tell me, how will the proposed system bring more variety? Will the slash rounds give a huge boost to slash damage compared to the electric core and fire magazine combined? Then who would choose that combination?

[Frostmire]

 

That's the same with attachments. Let me give you an example: You have a braton, where you have one slot for a core and one slot for a magazine. And you have a firerate core, a electric core, a slash round magazine and a fire magazine. Now what would you choose? More firerate and some slash damage would be nice, but those are overshadowed by the radiation element the electric core and the fire magazine combines into. Those attachments are simply better as they give you a new damage type in your weapon with it's own modifiers. So tell me, how will the proposed system bring more variety? Will the slash rounds give a huge boost to slash damage compared to the electric core and fire magazine combined? Then who would choose that combination?

 

I can't really tell you how specific attachments would work , but :

[img/http://imageshack.com/a/img199/9826/f69d.jpg

The images show that every weapon consists of 5 ( or a different number ) parts , and each part can only accept a limited number of attachments ( the 2nd picture shows that each part can accept only 1 attachment , but it can be different ) . You cannot slap damage attachments to every part because each of them only accept specific types of it . 

 

=> This can bring diversity that the current mod system lacks , it requires the player to care about all the offensive , defensive and ultility aspect of the weapons instead of stacking as much dps as possible while using only an ammo mod for those ammo hungry weapons  . And with the limited number of attachment , there will be a competition about which offensive/defensive/ultility attachments suit best for the gun and its owner's playstyle ( Like how firerate is more favorable for status build )

 

For the damage type arguement , it's not the mod/attachment system's fault when DE makes certain damage types sh1t when it comes to dps ( example : electric ) or ultility .

 

 

I won't go into specific details , because the OP's post is rather a sketch of the attachments system's foundation ( as well as many other systems ) than a finished , polished system . But it doesn't mean OP's ideas are bad .

Edited April 3, 2014 by Frostmire

[tmtke]

@theGreatZamboni:

 

Here we go. Hope this is detailed enough.

 

 

When your Warframe increases in level, they receive a flat increase to things like shields, energy and health. But unlike now, the increases would be a bit more significant. Along with receiving a boost to stats upon leveling, players receive points to spend in their skill tree. Each branch of the tree pulls from its own pool of points. So for each level you are given 1 point to spend per tree.

 

This means you have 4 points on systems, 4 on Powers, 4 on utility per level, which is 12 in total, for lvl 30 it goes up to 360 total, 120 per component, and 30 per tree. All cool and easy for the first blink.

Now the first bunch of concerns:

* In each tree you'd have skills like the current mods. How will you balance the minmimum/maximum values? Like, for example Excalibur shield ranges from 100 to 300 now, maxed Redirection buff this to 740. The straight shield boost will be larger per level, as you wrote, current Redirection mod has 10 slots, which guarantees a slow progression towards the end. If you can plug in a new point on shields on each level, you'll get the same amount of shield in a much shorter time.

* Or you'll need 1 points for the first level, 2 more for the next, 4 more etc? 30 points per tree doesn't sound like a huge amount of points for a whole skill tree - 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + 16 - oops, we're done here, 31 points spent, level 5 reached.

* Or is it like the old skill tree you included in the OP, where at some point on a tree you can increase the shield further? If yes, what else would you put into a skill tree, which already pretty constrained in your modified image to like shield, health, etc. (there is a shield icon, a helmet icon, some deflection like icon ?armor? and a health icon in the Systems section). Also, it'd be really annoying if you can't increase your shield because you have to spend the point to something else in the tree to get there.

* Or will these skills or stat mods go to the percepts below?

 

For the Powers section: each ability having a tree? What kind of stuff will be there? You'll plug in a power increase or a range increase skill if you like, to each tree? You wrote: "What if players could sacrifice the damage of Fireball or Fireblast, for increased damage reduction or duration on Overheat? Player could customize their powers to their liking. Tweak each powers' functionality to fit their play-style." - this means the skill tree will have obstacles and you can't pot you point straight to power if there is a range slot before?

There'll be also the same problem present as with the current system, you will have points which will allow you to balance, yes, but that means only players will leave the unused abilities to dust, increasing the abilities they like - which is minmaxing. Wait, they'll be really annoyed that they got 30 points on an ability they don't use, and cant't spend to anything else. And don't say that "but it is just a foundation, they can create better abilities on top of this", because not, they can't do it better than now, because in general, almost every ability can be reduced to numbers which affects something in the game, and therefore they are as limited now as they will be in the proposed system, because their mechanics have no real connection with the mod system, the mods are just allow the players to switch them on or off with modified parameters.

 

 

Below the branches are the roots (labeled "precepts" on the above concept image). These roots contain base stat increases, that are unlocked upon reaching the required Mastery Rank. The higher your Mastery Rank, the more powerful your Warframe becomes. These roots will contain increases in things like power range, shield and stamina totals. These create an innate boots to your Warframe's power making choices made above the roots (in the branches) more potent, as well as rewarding the player for increasing their Mastery Rank.

 

Mastery is the trickiest part. While I'm all about to increase the importance of the mastery rank, this solution is not clear to me.

* We'd be in a deep trouble if mastery rank would unlock things PER WARFRAME. Why? Let's say, I'm an avid Loki player. I got this frame from the beginning, and I'm not that interested in getting something else (this isn't exactly true for me, but I don't want to have every frame either). I leveled and formaed it up (or whatever the new system allows me to do with it) to my liking. Now some new frame comes out which intrigues me, and I want to try it, and I'm on mastery rank 6 for example. Do I get all the unlocked percept slots for the new frame? Or I need another 6 mastery levels to get them?

* If it is not per frame, instead of just a base buff to the stats, this will overpower the players only by playing a lot. It won't mean that they are skilled. It also enables them to move faster, hit stronger, and leave the weaker and less seasoned behind - they will only go for XP and mastery, which can be exploited in a lot of ways, and just creates another type of power creep.

This will lead to some other, more real life and monetary problems. There will be soon paid gamers to advance an account to a high level and hand it over to a rich player, and the items required now to shortcut the farming won't be present in the market (potatoes? what for? mod packs? why?). Ok, affinity boosters will remain, but all in all, it creates a pay to win situation - only you don't pay the devs, you pay for a human being in a poorer side of the world. I'm exaggerating a bit, but it happened before.

Also, the Focus system Steve mentioned is the right step in this direction I think, but we need to wait what they'll come up with.

 

Now for the weapons and attachments. Basically you're saying that get rid of straight damage mods, base damage should be enough, and have attachments, which are mods called on an other name, and limit them to 5 or less slots (depending on weapon). Here I can't be really sure, what is the best solution, to be honest. I played Quake and UT games for years, so I'm pretty much ok with non moddable weapons. I used all of them for their different utility, not for their damage. But in these games there were no different shield/health levels, everybody started the game with equal stats, AI or human. If the players can increase in power by playing the game, getting XP and so on, there'll be always the problem of enemy scaling. You just can't deal with this in increasing the number of spawned enemies, or making them more precise or bump up their AI (which is not trivial, easy to say, and really hard to implement). Currently there is no method to get enemy AI to human level, so the only way they can scale are increasing their stats or adding them more abilities to trick with (like the stalker/g3/zanuka or the leaders most recently).

 

For melee, I don't really want to dive in this. I love melee and movement combos, I was always an avid freerunner in the mentioned games. Rocketjumping, bunnyhopping, ramp jumps, you name it. But melee is only viable if you can come up close and personal with the enemy or enemies. If you can't (don't have the skills or the stats to do that), it is a waste of time. History teaches the same lesson, poor swordmasters and kung-fu masters and so on were gunned down from a distance. Let's see what U13 will show us and get back to this after that.

Edited April 3, 2014 by tmtke

[HAR1MAU]

Nice remember me combo system you got there. :3

[Retrikaethan]

I BUMP THIS POST IN THE NAME OF MEEEEEEE

[toolofdarkness]

your idea is great but could use some work. like what tmtke was saying using your tree people would increase things like shields only. to solve this problem i suggest a making "perks" like shields very weak or have the system focus on utility like small resistances to things like radiation or quicker recovery from knock down or even small team buffs or enemy debuffs.

 

me personally i have a bone to pick with the with your mastery rank "perk" system. i believe instead of stat increasing perks or even perks at all there should be a weapon/frame tree. i know you're thinking that its a horrible idea because people would move up the tree as quickly as possible to get to the best items. but thats not how i'm talking about. my tree would start out with the bratton and a new frame that does a little bit of everything and then the tree specializes from there. for instance you have just finished the bratton and have became mastery level one (its been a while i don't remember what level you start at so stay with me here) now you have a choice in two which to dump your points into you can either go with a base shotgun or rifle. then after playing a few missions you are now level two in which you have even more choices. you can now have more choices for shotguns you can either go with more damage but slower fire rate or high rate of fire but low damage. note they will do the same overall damage but it allows people to play to there play style. for the rifles you have the same choices except for you can go for burt fire at the same time. finally machine guns will be the same as the shotgun but with the added option for a spooling wep. this will continue until the point in which you have all the types of weps.

 

as for the frames they would work under the same format. also going down one tree does not mean you can't go down another at the same time.

[Zensetsu]

Thank you. Sweet jesus that looks awesome! Now I did read the post twice for clarity, but what are you suggesting happen to the 2.0 elements?

 

Also as for feedback: If i were you I would not directly respond the the people asking about what should happen to their maxed serration,hornet strike, etc. if it is removed. I don't think it would make much sense to dwell on this because it doesn't add anything to your arguments for this, and the details of compensation could really start to bog down feedback for this system.

[DocHolliday13]

Thank you. Sweet jesus that looks awesome! Now I did read the post twice for clarity, but what are you suggesting happen to the 2.0 elements?

 

Also as for feedback: If i were you I would not directly respond the the people asking about what should happen to their maxed serration,hornet strike, etc. if it is removed. I don't think it would make much sense to dwell on this because it doesn't add anything to your arguments for this, and the details of compensation could really start to bog down feedback for this system.

 

I've invested lots of resources into ranking up mods, and I'm very much in favor of this. Yeah, losing all that would sting a bit, but I'd get over it. But besides that, they've found a way to compensate players before for things that got removed, I'm sure they'd find a way again.

[VileMalevolence]

I am not excited about a skill tree system which would be easier but reduces warframe to the level of every other game ive played. Mods are one of the reasons this game is so unique and i think the game would lose a lot by implementing this. Mods are to create a limit on warframes you can't attach everything. I should also say that creating attachments would also further reduce the individuality of warframe. Warframe is also free so it's not going to perfect and you should not expected to play forever. It is going to get boring like any other AI wave game.

[Frostmire]

Currently , mods are more like " straight upgrade " than actual tools for modding your equipment ( like side-grade or something like that ) , the problem is that the current mod system make the weapon too strong , a fully modded weapon is multiple times better than the non-modded one ( i would say at least 10 times better ) 

 

As the result , it is impossible to create any kind of difficulty that can sastify the new players , players who have played for awhile and veterant at the same time , the gap of power between them is too high . It's only a matter of time for the new players to get the "endgame" mods ( multishot,corrupted and stuffs ) then realize that the game has become a walk in the park

[CosyPigeon]

Update 13 highlights why certain game play elements should be innate, rather than EVERYTHING being dependent on mods. 

[kaboomonme]

I am not excited about a skill tree system which would be easier but reduces warframe to the level of every other game ive played. Mods are one of the reasons this game is so unique and i think the game would lose a lot by implementing this. Mods are to create a limit on warframes you can't attach everything. I should also say that creating attachments would also further reduce the individuality of warframe. Warframe is also free so it's not going to perfect and you should not expected to play forever. It is going to get boring like any other AI wave game.

I'd rather look forward to the day Warframe stands out as a game with a unique theme, engaging gameplay and enjoyable teamwork rather than accept it as what it is generally referred to now : "A pretty game with grindy mechanics."

The amount of potential is amazing, but I would hate to just see it "get boring like any other AI wave game".

Generic Abilities are also a feature that is a WIP, which are abilities that are equippable by more than 1 Warframe, so it seems DE does have the game's future in mind, just that they either 1. Haven't gotten around to it, or 2. Aren't approaching it the right way.

 

 

IF the boss catches you. Bosses should be hard and put your skills to the test. Currently, you can nuke almost every single boss with a Soma in a matter of seconds. Also, notice that I said Hard mode. As in "Optional mode that gives experienced players a challenge/run for their money". The scaling can be debated though. 

 

As the game stands now, I don't see that happening. Most of the abilities and maneuvers in the game at the moment reward progression instead of rewarding skill. 

For example, what is the best way to take a hit? Have more Health or Shield. Before the new system was implemented, blocking was insubstantial, and cover was sort of hit and miss. How do you upgrade your health and shield to make it more effective? With credits and fusion cores. At the core, the game rewards progression instead of skill, which is another core issue DE has yet to fix. 

Examples of skill-based maneuvers would be rolling/dodging, timed blocking, and parrying/countering. Most of these DE has already added into the game or have attempted to do so in the past, but they don't function to the extent they need to, or they 

are just poorly implemented. 

(I won't talk about shooting at this point cause... come on, we all know this game isn't nearly THAT difficult for aiming to be a really big factor when it comes to skill. Same applies for most abilities. There are some abilities that are exceptions.)

I thought Melee 2.0 would fix this, but as it stands now, it needs quite a bit of work. Parrying could have been a big thing to skill-based game-play, but it's so broken and situational at the moment it's hard to tell.

 

Edited April 11, 2014 by kaboomonme

[DocHolliday13]

Currently , mods are more like " straight upgrade " than actual tools for modding your equipment ( like side-grade or something like that ) , the problem is that the current mod system make the weapon too strong , a fully modded weapon is multiple times better than the non-modded one ( i would say at least 10 times better ) 

 

As the result , it is impossible to create any kind of difficulty that can sastify the new players , players who have played for awhile and veterant at the same time , the gap of power between them is too high . It's only a matter of time for the new players to get the "endgame" mods ( multishot,corrupted and stuffs ) then realize that the game has become a walk in the park

 

You're absolutely correct, but you definitely erred on the safe side. To put it in perspective, rifles modded to the max range from about 40x better to over 70x better, depending on how much benefit they get from crit. Secondary weapons across the board can be over 70x better than stock, thanks to better mods (such as a total of 180% multishot). Shotguns come in at around 40x to 50x better than stock.

[DocHolliday13]

Bump for some great ideas.

[RealmDestroyer]

I'm sorry, but the combo system looks a bit too much like Remember Me.

[Ketec]

didn't even read .. too much... but mods must stay - its what makes the game unique. Don't want some lame overused " skill trees and passives" system. That would be the death of warframe for me.'

 

 

 

Skill based gameplay would suck even more. It would alienate large portion of the playerbase who play to see progression and have fun - not play another  " im good at spamming xxx buttons in that order with that timing" masterrace game

Edited April 18, 2014 by Ketec

[optyk]

I'm sorry, but the combo system looks a bit too much like Remember Me.

 

Yes it does. It's an exact 1:1 copy of Remember Me's system (GREAT game BTW). Warframe wants/is trying to be unique, not a copy n paste that players always claim to hate but then want later by referencing other games.

 

 

From the OP:

"Giving players the ability to gimp their effectiveness via poor design choices is just stupid."

 

No, it's not.

 

Go try The Secret World (www.thesecretworld.com), look at their ranged/melee/magic skill wheel (http://www.drakkashi.com/secretworld). You would probably make the same thread in their forums because the system is not dumbed down enough to be error free and how you must replay the same area/content at times. You woulda FREAKED OUT over Star Wars Galaxies (pre-NGE) skill system... C'mon man...

 

It's not that the system is telling us to mod what the heck ever, it's that it's open in such a way that if you're not careful you will gimp your build. Thats cause and effect, live and learn, PLAY(not PAY) to gain experience. If you want easy, chase down a copy n paste kiddo game or some P2W, theres many out there. You should be moaning about how they added Prime BP and Parts to Trade. Now any wallet/weekend warrior can create an account, buy some Plat and get Prime gear without ever stepping foot into a Void. THATS 'poor design choice' and THAT hurts gameplay more than anything else because of that players lack of experience against the mobs and with the weapons. Name a game out there that lets you buy dungeon/raid rewards without even stepping in one; it's ridic. But alas, money talks and squeaky wheels get the oil. And [DE] has stated that Warframe is supposed to be over the top fun. So be it.

 

I'll agree to one aspect of your 'inspired' epiphany, and thats ranged weapons. We need some sort of 'utility' mod slots separate from our normal ones. Or even dedicate 4 slots like we have on our Frames/Sentinels. I'm sure that's coming and or being looked at.

 

Here is some more reading for you as well:

http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Watch-Dogs-Dev-Admits-Games-Dumbed-Down-Make-More-Money-63299.html

 

Mod system still needs refinement yes. Game is ONLY 1 year old and still carries the beta label. Devs are HIGHLY transparent, receptive and personable with anything they do or plan on doing. This is not some churn n burn "AAA Next-Gen" trash game thats over and done within 12 months (ie Battlefield) and you never hear a peep from the Devs.

[Darkshar]

Yes, this is something that DE should slowly implement into the game. I'm pretty sure they have read this because they have implemented your melee combo idea. Hopefully they will now rework the mod system, and maybe even make that awesome skill tree that would give a purpose of gameplay!

[Aggh]

Yes, this is something that DE should slowly implement into the game. I'm pretty sure they have read this because they have implemented your melee combo idea. Hopefully they will now rework the mod system, and maybe even make that awesome skill tree that would give a purpose of gameplay!

Melee combos have been a constant suggestion from all over the player base since well before this thread was made.

[Recel]

It's a nice idea, tho I agree with some folks here that it's really generic as far as games go.

Also, I don't think the problem with mod system is the system it self, but the power of the mods compaired to the basic equipment.

 

Weapons should be powerful on their own, or gain power on rank. A fully moded and potatoed/formad weapon should NOT be 30x+ more powerful that the base weapon. Mods should complement the weapon and not straight out define its preformance.

Same with frames. You shouldn't NEED to put shield/healt mod in. It should give a small boost that is still enough to have an impact in the game, but it shouldn't straight outmake the frame ten times better.

 

Warframes biggest problem is the scaling. Mods start out with a reasonable bonus, but the system allowes you to upgrade them to insane levels! And it also allowes you to have eight of these mods that all ad insane amount of bonuses, so in the end building a frame or weapon is all about stacking bonuses.

The basic items are left behind so much in terms of power that you can make anything out of anything just by dumping these high bonuses on them.

 

Look at the Tysis. It's base stats say it's a utility weapon to apply status effects on to enemies. Yet if you forma it a few times you can easily nail lvl 30 mobs to the wall with it in one shot. And if you look at the game closely you will realise its designed levels are 1-40. The 100+ mobs are just a side effect of Defense and Survival missions. So with a utility weapon you can kill most of the regular, intended level mobs in one or two shots!

And it's not even the highes damaging weapon in the game!

 

And this is also why mobs become bullet sponges. Because there's a LOT of damage to be sponged.

 

Simply bringing the power of frames and weapons up, and mods down would narrow the variation between players, while making balancing actually possible. On the side, if mods don't give huge bonuses, than mods like multishot, serration, redirection will no longer be neceserry, potentially freeing up space for the more fun but currently "useless" mods.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Recel

[Zirion_Bk]

Yes, this is something that DE should slowly implement into the game. I'm pretty sure they have read this because they have implemented your melee combo idea. Hopefully they will now rework the mod system, and maybe even make that awesome skill tree that would give a purpose of gameplay!

Just because the op proposed timed attacks doesn't mean de read this. Timed attacks isn't exactly the most original idea. 

 

Also, the mod system (with a bit of work of course) is better than skill trees because of our ability to instantly switch mods out and NOT having to rely on prerequisite perks to get what we actually want.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Zirion_Bk

[Cryp2Nite]

I would like to see this! +1

[DocHolliday13]

It's a nice idea, tho I agree with some folks here that it's really generic as far as games go.

Also, I don't think the problem with mod system is the system it self, but the power of the mods compaired to the basic equipment.

 

Weapons should be powerful on their own, or gain power on rank. A fully moded and potatoed/formad weapon should NOT be 30x+ more powerful that the base weapon. Mods should complement the weapon and not straight out define its preformance.

Same with frames. You shouldn't NEED to put shield/healt mod in. It should give a small boost that is still enough to have an impact in the game, but it shouldn't straight outmake the frame ten times better.

 

Warframes biggest problem is the scaling. Mods start out with a reasonable bonus, but the system allowes you to upgrade them to insane levels! And it also allowes you to have eight of these mods that all ad insane amount of bonuses, so in the end building a frame or weapon is all about stacking bonuses.

The basic items are left behind so much in terms of power that you can make anything out of anything just by dumping these high bonuses on them.

 

Look at the Tysis. It's base stats say it's a utility weapon to apply status effects on to enemies. Yet if you forma it a few times you can easily nail lvl 30 mobs to the wall with it in one shot. And if you look at the game closely you will realise its designed levels are 1-40. The 100+ mobs are just a side effect of Defense and Survival missions. So with a utility weapon you can kill most of the regular, intended level mobs in one or two shots!

And it's not even the highes damaging weapon in the game!

 

And this is also why mobs become bullet sponges. Because there's a LOT of damage to be sponged.

 

Simply bringing the power of frames and weapons up, and mods down would narrow the variation between players, while making balancing actually possible. On the side, if mods don't give huge bonuses, than mods like multishot, serration, redirection will no longer be neceserry, potentially freeing up space for the more fun but currently "useless" mods.

 

Yep. As I've said before (I think maybe even in this same thread somewhere) if they want to stick with the mod system, this is exactly what they need to do.