The Zarr needs a buff.

[Lancars]

You over nerfed it. When you reload it and you have vacuum it picks up ammo one at a time, thus wasting ammo drops to keep the thing fed. Then there is the barrage mode which isn't worth it with such a low ammo capacity. It's a chore to keep watch over ammo drops even with Primed Ammo mutation.

And with all the incarnon weapons being so insanely over tuned you don't have a platform to stand on about AOE weapons being a problem.

The mean reason AOE weapons got nerfed in the first place was cause of Mirage.

[KitMeHarder]

4 hours ago, Lancars said:

And with all the incarnon weapons being so insanely over tuned you don't have a platform to stand on about AOE weapons being a problem.

(I agree with you, but...) This wasn't DE's reasoning. Their reasoning was that they didn't care about how much damage we did/how fast we did it, it's that is was all we did. They're fine with our damage/KPS, but they want our gameplay to be "diverse", and spamming AoE it was not. Thus they "reduced our overall ammo to incentivize us to use our secondary/melee when we run out, before we get back to the AoE spam".

And incarnons already have this baked in with them needing to build charges, most of which requiring precise headshots. (Plus, specters can't use incarnon modes.)

[Lancars]

22 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

(I agree with you, but...) This wasn't DE's reasoning. Their reasoning was that they didn't care about how much damage we did/how fast we did it, it's that is was all we did. They're fine with our damage/KPS, but they want our gameplay to be "diverse", and spamming AoE it was not. Thus they "reduced our overall ammo to incentivize us to use our secondary/melee when we run out, before we get back to the AoE spam".

And incarnons already have this baked in with them needing to build charges, most of which requiring precise headshots. (Plus, specters can't use incarnon modes.)

Maybe. But they where a bit heavy handed in their approach. Plus from what i've seen people are killing even faster now that even if these weapons became un-nerfed they would still be far behind whats going on now. People seem to liquidate things faster. I saw a video of someone vaporizing an archon boss in a second, they power creeped right back into the very same problem. Atleast now they should fix what they broke. They just went in with a butchers cleaver and hacked away at weapons and removed a perk from an arcane that gave you more ammo in the pocket. Feels like this was done with malice.

Also torid incarnon doesn't require much as you just need to meatshot enemies instead of headshot and that thing melts people.

[ChaoticEdge]

Right now, the real meta is that laser connects enemies for the Troid Incarion become beast god of war weapon because stats is king to build with for either turn troid into fire or electric or pure toxic weapon it just does mega forget about zarr and other explosive guns.  Yes I am still offended about it about the nerf from the past and today, but they shouldn't overkill it for they could have done 1 thing, nerf crit DMG only that is easy to resolved for it would've become balance for players will rely on status being mixing more but I guess the dev didn't understand the situation still which my comment was got ignored, oh well the dev killed the meta but birth a horrible meta worse then zarr.  Hey at least Troid Incarion is getting loved again, but I wished they incarion the zarr even it has the flip switch for making the flip switch become powerful shotgun blast do more dmg then explosive one and just flipping pierce though enemies or at least shred armors and increase the distance of the zarr's shotgun mode for it is flipping a shotgun.

Edited December 31, 2023 by ChaoticEdge

[KitMeHarder]

9 minutes ago, Lancars said:

Plus from what i've seen people are killing even faster now that even if these weapons became un-nerfed they would still be far behind whats going on now. People seem to liquidate things faster.

Again, it's not the damage/KPS, it's the pacing. They want you to use AoE and to use precision, not simply AoE only. I'm just paraphrasing DE, these aren't my thoughts.

10 minutes ago, Lancars said:

I saw a video of someone vaporizing an archon boss in a second, they power creeped right back into the very same problem.

I'm guessing you're talking about the framerate bug/abuse. It has nothing to do with incarnons.

11 minutes ago, Lancars said:

Also torid incarnon doesn't require much as you just need to meatshot enemies instead of headshot and that thing melts people.

That's still way more precision than you need when you use the Zarr. That's how DE views it.

13 minutes ago, Lancars said:

and removed a perk from an arcane that gave you more ammo

IMO this is the main thing that needs to be unnerfed. I ultimately don't mind if we don't get anything else (because I don't think we would).

[Lancars]

49 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Again, it's not the damage/KPS, it's the pacing. They want you to use AoE and to use precision, not simply AoE only. I'm just paraphrasing DE, these aren't my thoughts.

I'm guessing you're talking about the framerate bug/abuse. It has nothing to do with incarnons.

That's still way more precision than you need when you use the Zarr. That's how DE views it.

IMO this is the main thing that needs to be unnerfed. I ultimately don't mind if we don't get anything else (because I don't think we would).

I know the video had nothing to do with the incarnon but this is the kinda stuff we are dealing with. I also see videos of people doing easy group ups of enemies and you can easily fill the torid for incarnon mod, there  is no shortage of group up abilities.

 

As for the zarr i just want more ammo in the pocket. 5 shots and 5 in the pocket just feel like a crime when i can use the ogris/penta/tonkor/envoy to greater effect. I want to be able to play with the weapon i want and it not be a chore to use. I also don't use just explosive i've been using the Rauta more because i like the Alof system and it feels good to shoot things with it. And yes while the Bramma also has the same ammo issue it doesn't feel like it suffers that much as it blows up way more things then the zarr does.

[Lancars]

1 hour ago, ChaoticEdge said:

Right now, the real meta is that laser connects enemies for the Troid Incarion become beast god of war weapon because stats is king to build with for either turn troid into fire or electric or pure toxic weapon it just does mega forget about zarr and other explosive guns.  Yes I am still offended about it about the nerf from the past and today, but they shouldn't overkill it for they could have done 1 thing, nerf crit DMG only that is easy to resolved for it would've become balance for players will rely on status being mixing more but I guess the dev didn't understand the situation still which my comment was got ignored, oh well the dev killed the meta but birth a horrible meta worse then zarr.  Hey at least Troid Incarion is getting loved again, but I wished they incarion the zarr even it has the flip switch for making the flip switch become powerful shotgun blast do more dmg then explosive one and just flipping pierce though enemies or at least shred armors and increase the distance of the zarr's shotgun mode for it is flipping a shotgun.

Can't incarnon the zarr due to the alt fire being the trigger for incarnon forms. DE would have to program a new button for those forms.

[ChaoticEdge]

9 hours ago, Lancars said:

Can't incarnon the zarr due to the alt fire being the trigger for incarnon forms. DE would have to program a new button for those forms.

Yes you can, the fact think as it is a "buff" it does it really need be full tank power?  No not really, they did it to the torid or troid gun that need hit a body and just got laser power for where is the bloody ignis getting its incarnon but enough with that but seriously zarr incarnon with the kuva shouldn't make no different for the dev is known pull off the impossible even destroying old systems if anyone remember the stamina got rid for reason or either stupid removal ultra power speedy jumping old school classic one or either reforge the whole melee systems.  I am not far fetch with it but anyway they should un-nerf the dmg still and just nerf the crit dmg x # for just saying getting it under 0.5 as Dev should un-nerf the dmg even the slap of mods crit dmg should of raise it up to be only few under then 3 crit dmg or cap it only crit dmg cap number explosive instead of capping ammo for what is the point of that is it for the hard dmg wouldn't be repeatable nuclear waste bombardment, just simple should be but the dev don't know they could of solve it the other way.

[Birdframe_Prime]

19 hours ago, Lancars said:

When you reload it and you have vacuum it picks up ammo one at a time, thus wasting ammo drops to keep the thing fed.

Intentional, yes, maybe an over-nerf, but definitely intentional.

19 hours ago, Lancars said:

And with all the incarnon weapons being so insanely over tuned you don't have a platform to stand on about AOE weapons being a problem.

These two things are literally not the same thing.

The AoE meta being nerfed, because they were a problem, is because of the AFK farming meta that became so prevalent that players were literally able to macro their farming for hours in a given Survival by basically standing around a corner and shooting their own feet.

Can you do that with Incarnons? No. Because Incarnon mode must be charged with either headshots or full body shots for the ones that can't properly headshot. You have to actually aim and shoot an Incarnon to charge it, press the button to transform it, then you run out of ammo for that and have to repeat.

Not a lot of input, true, but something that's called a 'minimum level of engagement'. Which is what DE require from the players; moving, aiming, shooting enemies, using Abilities, whatever. But you have to do something.

19 hours ago, Lancars said:

The mean reason AOE weapons got nerfed in the first place was cause of Mirage.

Because of... Mirage? W... What?

Wukong, y'daft sausage. The frame that was literally played more than the next forty frames combined. And why? Because he had an automatic turret that used your own weapon with infinite ammo.

Mirage is designed to make weapons stronger. Wukong was accidentally designed to make weapons completely non-interactive. Just press 1 to summon your monkey clone, then watch as it destroys everything for you. Especially when you're corner-camping in Survival and can break line of sight with enemies in order to have them all charge in at your clone instead.

That's why WuClone now uses your ammo. That's why WuClone will sit down if you're AFK. That's why Wukong himself had a stat rework to ensure it's actually viable to run his Staff now instead of the AoE AFK meta.

Wukong is why DE keep threatening to bring back self damage.

So... yeah.

Over-nerfed? Maybe.

Until the community stop, as a surprising and strange majority, using it to go AFK in missions and farm for hours... not likely to get un-nerfed.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

All things put in perspective, the Kuva Tonkor is a thing, never runs out of ammo, does pretty much the same thing the zarr did.

So what happened there?

[Famecans]

Technically [Zarr] is a longer-range AoE damage weapon because the defragmentation of the projectile in multiple directions makes this weapon independent of mods like [Primed firestorm].

The penalty on [Zarr] was severe because the DE classified dozens of AoE weapons without specific rules and applied this to the ammo system of all weapons(I hate running out of ammo in Duviri), then we had the releases of new AoE weapons like [Sthalta], [Tenet Tetra], [Ambassador]... with mechanics where the AoE mode consumes fixed percentages of the maximum magazine volume, so these weapons are not nerfed in the primary fire mode.

thoughts:

Firstly, the DE must create new subcategories for primary weapons, similar to what we have for melee, so [Zarr] is classified as a grenade launcher and has a shotgun mode ability, totally different from [Corinth] which is in fact a shotgun(it is primarily wielded like a shotgun) and has a grenade launcher ability, we have [Trumna] which must also have a proprietary automatic rifle category and also has a grenade launcher ability.

This category needs to have specific mods for damage/multishot/critical chance/critical damage/ammo/arcane/etc... this way developers will have more freedom to rework without problematizing other weapon classes and modifiers.

[Lancars]

On 2024-01-02 at 3:01 PM, Famecans said:

Technically [Zarr] is a longer-range AoE damage weapon because the defragmentation of the projectile in multiple directions makes this weapon independent of mods like [Primed firestorm].

The penalty on [Zarr] was severe because the DE classified dozens of AoE weapons without specific rules and applied this to the ammo system of all weapons(I hate running out of ammo in Duviri), then we had the releases of new AoE weapons like [Sthalta], [Tenet Tetra], [Ambassador]... with mechanics where the AoE mode consumes fixed percentages of the maximum magazine volume, so these weapons are not nerfed in the primary fire mode.

thoughts:

Firstly, the DE must create new subcategories for primary weapons, similar to what we have for melee, so [Zarr] is classified as a grenade launcher and has a shotgun mode ability, totally different from [Corinth] which is in fact a shotgun(it is primarily wielded like a shotgun) and has a grenade launcher ability, we have [Trumna] which must also have a proprietary automatic rifle category and also has a grenade launcher ability.

This category needs to have specific mods for damage/multishot/critical chance/critical damage/ammo/arcane/etc... this way developers will have more freedom to rework without problematizing other weapon classes and modifiers.

Yea their balance pass was far to vaguely done as if they just moved some levers around and some of them shared levers. And then the nerf to that one arcane that increased ammo capacity in the pocket with it. They didn't have to remove that one cause i used it on other weapons besides launchers.

[Famecans]

On 2024-01-07 at 1:25 PM, Lancars said:

Yea their balance pass was far to vaguely done as if they just moved some levers around and some of them shared levers. And then the nerf to that one arcane that increased ammo capacity in the pocket with it. They didn't have to remove that one cause i used it on other weapons besides launchers.

Primary Mercile was useful, Primary Mercile was well designed but DE destroyed it to fix half a dozen weapons, this change chained dozens of weapons to a terrible update and nerfed several modifiers.

I hate running out of ammo in Duviri Circuit, if these weapons were classy and had specific mods none of these problems would have affected the other weapons, the rework would be less problematic for the game.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 10 heures, Famecans a dit :

I hate running out of ammo in Duviri Circuit, if these weapons were classy and had specific mods none of these problems would have affected the other weapons, the rework would be less problematic for the game.

Devil's advocate : "Oh but you could pick up that decree that gives you ammo economy if you want to play around an annoying mechanic, having to roll every 4 seconds :) "

I'm surprised we still have no replacement as in an ammo related arcane. Because I'm very certain people would drop merciless if it meant gaining a much better ammo economy.

Indirectly, you'd "nerf" the AoE damage, but you would instead increase their usability. Sadly I doubt anything like it is coming.