Rhino Stomp is absolutely broken!

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 17 heures, Tiltskillet a dit :

I'll add it, thank you.   Question though: just in terms of drawing threat?  They're definitely extremely good at that.   Or is there more to it? 

This was in that thread already, but it's hard to keep it updated.

 

Il y a 19 heures, DezerayTwT a dit :

But for some reason, the ability of Rhino and Wisp does not concern this and it is not normal.

As @Tiltskillet said, there are much more than these two. One of the best is Mag's 3rd with the augment Mod.

The devs are correcting these problems, but I think it will take a long time till everything is fixed.

Anyway, the thread opened by Tiltskillet about abilities that are currently working through overguard is the best compilation we have and the devs can use it as a source of information for future fixes. Some of the problems reported there were already fixed.

 

[DezerayTwT]

58 минут назад, AegidiusF сказал:

This was in that thread already, but it's hard to keep it updated.

 

As @Tiltskillet said, there are much more than these two. One of the best is Mag's 3rd with the augment Mod.

The devs are correcting these problems, but I think it will take a long time till everything is fixed.

Anyway, the thread opened by Tiltskillet about abilities that are currently working through overguard is the best compilation we have and the devs can use it as a source of information for future fixes. Some of the problems reported there were already fixed.

 

By the way, it's good that you mentioned this, the "Weapon jamming effect", in fact, this is also a control effect, but for some reason Overguard does not prohibit this effect. The funny thing is that Mesa's 2 ability has the same effect, but it doesn't want to affect enemies.

There is a difference in essence, because IT is IMPORTANT, I want to mention it again in context - Overguard does not prohibit warframe abilities from working on Eximus enemies, Overguard blocks CONTROL effects aimed at them, this is important.

[Raarsi]

1 hour ago, DezerayTwT said:

Overguard blocks CONTROL effects aimed at them, this is important.

And Rhino Stomp isn't aimed.  Seems like it's working as intended then.

Now Limbo on the other hand...

[DezerayTwT]

18 минут назад, Raarsi сказал:

And Rhino Stomp isn't aimed.

And this makes sense, but to fix the stomp, you need to make sure that it is aimed at ENEMIES in a radius (like 3 equinox ability), and not at the area as it is now. You've given me a very useful idea, thank you.

Edited January 17 by DezerayTwT

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 8 heures, DezerayTwT a dit :

With the abilities of Rhino and Wisp, the situation is different, they inflict control on the enemy with Overguard and this is not normal, I ask you to pay attention to this.

Well yeah, I read that, each time, don't worry about that. I'm just saying Rhino doing this further shows how Overguard is a complete mess. On release, you could even get slowed by a zephyr teammate's tornadoes if you had Overguard (when using the decree that gives you some on melee kills in circuit), for whatever reason, it's been fixed since then but the fact that there are still some interactions like this made me curious about how the slow mechanic  works on Rhino...

So I tested something that technically slows like it : Vast Untime from Xaku (I modded for 370% strength to get "similar" results in terms of slow strength). Turns out, it's two completely different types of slows and Vast Untime's slowing component does not work against Overguard. Molecular Prime slows like Vast Untime, so it's also not working against Overguard, same deal with Creeping Terrify, Equinox's Peaceful Provocation in night form doesn't work against overguard (and also you do not lose energy per overguarded enemy, which shows the entire ability doesn't count those targets as valid enemies), Nyx's chaos doesn't do anything, cold zones from Freeze don't do anything, Ice Wave impedance DOES work however. Zephyr's Tornadoes also do slow down (slightly) overguarded enemies.

 

In conclusion, Overguard is a hot mess and whoever designed it didn't account for the fact that Warframe has half a billion methods to inflict what seems to be the same CC.

[DezerayTwT]

10 часов назад, Fred_Avant_2019 сказал:

Well yeah, I read that, each time, don't worry about that. I'm just saying Rhino doing this further shows how Overguard is a complete mess. On release, you could even get slowed by a zephyr teammate's tornadoes if you had Overguard (when using the decree that gives you some on melee kills in circuit), for whatever reason, it's been fixed since then but the fact that there are still some interactions like this made me curious about how the slow mechanic  works on Rhino...

So I tested something that technically slows like it : Vast Untime from Xaku (I modded for 370% strength to get "similar" results in terms of slow strength). Turns out, it's two completely different types of slows and Vast Untime's slowing component does not work against Overguard. Molecular Prime slows like Vast Untime, so it's also not working against Overguard, same deal with Creeping Terrify, Equinox's Peaceful Provocation in night form doesn't work against overguard (and also you do not lose energy per overguarded enemy, which shows the entire ability doesn't count those targets as valid enemies), Nyx's chaos doesn't do anything, cold zones from Freeze don't do anything, Ice Wave impedance DOES work however. Zephyr's Tornadoes also do slow down (slightly) overguarded enemies.

 

In conclusion, Overguard is a hot mess and whoever designed it didn't account for the fact that Warframe has half a billion methods to inflict what seems to be the same CC.

I completely agree, DE really has a tendency to forget about what they added some time ago, even if it's something that's one of the main mechanics of the game, I really think they need to be reminded of this, so I want this post to get as many views as possible and that DE would start to fix something that should have been fixed long ago.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 19 heures, DezerayTwT a dit :

By the way, it's good that you mentioned this, the "Weapon jamming effect", in fact, this is also a control effect, but for some reason Overguard does not prohibit this effect. The funny thing is that Mesa's 2 ability has the same effect, but it doesn't want to affect enemies.

There is a difference in essence, because IT is IMPORTANT, I want to mention it again in context - Overguard does not prohibit warframe abilities from working on Eximus enemies, Overguard blocks CONTROL effects aimed at them, this is important.

Not only aimed at them : overguard is intended to make Eximus protected from "to Warframe crowd control abilities and anything that will stagger, knockdown, stun, mind control, ragdoll, and blind." (Update 31.5 notes). This was an intended "Warframe Power resistance" (as the devs called it - see below) to Eximus units.

Aiming or not has nothing to do with this problem :

Loki 4th doesn't work, but Mag's 3rd with the Augment works. Both do not require aiming.

Excalibur 2nd doesn't work, but Mesa's 2nd (blind) with the Augment work, Wisp 3rd work too. Both do not require aiming.
[By the way, augments are very often a source of problem to overguard consistency.]

Garuda's 1st is an aiming ability and it doesn't work at all. Loki's 3rd will work (but not stun the enemy). Halikar throw require aiming and it works (disarm).

Vauban's 4th and Zephyr 4th have peculiar effects through overguard.

Gauss 1st won't work, but Grendel's 3rd will.

It's not only warframe abilities, but also companions : kubrow can still disarm Eximus.

This problem is just a question of coding : it will take time till everything works consistently.

It took a whole year to fix a problem with Dethcube's Vaporize (aimed attack that was working through overguard in a double way, CC and damage) :

Citation

Update 33.0 (2023-04-26) Fixed Dethcube’s Vaporize Mod not respecting Overguard’s crowd control immunity and bypassing their defenses to deal damage.

They need time to fix these problems without creating another problem even worse. The problem must be reported, the dev team needs to search the cause (sometimes it's not that simple) and then try to fix it, but at the same time they are developping new content.


From Update 31.5 notes :

Citation

 

Warframe Power Resistance: Introducing Overguard

Eximus units now have a new kind of defense called Overguard, which is a new Health pool on top of their regular stats that a) must be removed before players can take down their Health/Shields, and b) offers additional immunities to the Eximus, making them a priority target in-missions.

While Overguard is active, it will keep Eximus units immune to Warframe crowd control abilities and anything that will stagger, knockdown, stun, mind control, ragdoll, and blind. Additionally, Overguarded enemies will be unaffected by Radiation Status Effects and will be susceptible to a maximum of 4 Cold Status Effects at one time. However, Overguard is particularly susceptible to Void damage (including Xaku’s Xata’s Whisper), which will overall improve the flow and synergy between Warframe and Operator combat flow when engaging with Eximus units. This will encourage you to engage with them more interactively as opposed to easily overpowering them with abilities alone. It should shift the focus of fighting Eximus units to using a mixture of weapons and teamwork, and make Eximus units feel like more of a true threat to Warframes. 

 

 

[DezerayTwT]

1 час назад, AegidiusF сказал:

Excalibur 2nd doesn't work, but Mesa's 2nd (blind) with the Augment work, Wisp 3rd work too. Both do not require aiming.
[By the way, augments are very often a source of problem to overguard consistency.]

Gauss 1st won't work, but Grendel's 3rd will.

It's not only warframe abilities, but also companions : kubrow can still disarm Eximus.

This problem is just a question of coding : it will take time till everything works consistently.

It took a whole year to fix a problem with Dethcube's Vaporize (aimed attack that was working through overguard in a double way, CC and damage) :

They need time to fix these problems without creating another problem even worse. The problem must be reported, the dev team needs to search the cause (sometimes it's not that simple) and then try to fix it, but at the same time they are developping new content.


From Update 31.5 notes :

 

Thank you for giving such a detailed answer, however, I will note that blinding with augmented Excalibur does not work on Eximus enemies, I literally just checked it out. And Grendel's 3 ability is a negative effect for Eximus enemies, so only armor removal works from this ability.

What really surprised me is that Kubra can disarm the enemies of the Eximus, however, due to its specificity, I don't think this is a big problem, although I think it's not normal.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 3 minutes, DezerayTwT a dit :

Thank you for giving such a detailed answer,

With pleasure. Overguard has a lot of consistency problems since its arrival in the game.

il y a 2 minutes, DezerayTwT a dit :

I will note that blinding with augmented Excalibur does not work on Eximus enemies, I literally just checked it out.

Yes, Excalibur Blind don't work (even with the augment), I was comparing it with Mesa with the Augment, that works.

il y a 5 minutes, DezerayTwT a dit :

And Grendel's 3 ability is a negative effect for Eximus enemies, so only armor removal works from this ability.

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough : I was not talking about the armor strip (which should always work), but about the fact that Grendel 3rd (after the rework : Pulverize) used to stun Eximus with active overguard. Perhaps it was fixed, but I haven't see any mention on recent hotfixes.

 

il y a 12 minutes, DezerayTwT a dit :

What really surprised me is that Kubra can disarm the enemies of the Eximus

I think there is a simple explanation to this : almost nobody was using this, so almost nobody noticed the problem... not even the devs,..

 

 

[DezerayTwT]

1 час назад, AegidiusF сказал:

Yes, Excalibur Blind don't work (even with the augment), I was comparing it with Mesa with the Augment, that works.

I think there is a simple explanation to this : almost nobody was using this, so almost nobody noticed the problem... not even the devs,..

Yes, indeed, the Mesa shooting gallery mod really blinds the enemies of the Eximus, this also needs to be fixed.

I really want this post to influence the work of the enemies of the Eximus, so that they have full resistance to the effects of control.

And I also want to draw attention to the fact that there are abilities that are not control effects, but for some reason do not work on Eximus enemies, for example 3 Equinox ability (without mod improvement), in fact its ability is a negative effect, not a control effect, but for some reason it does not work on Eximus enemies.

[AegidiusF]

il y a 4 minutes, DezerayTwT a dit :

Yes, indeed, the Mesa shooting gallery mod really blinds the enemies of the Eximus, this also needs to be fixed.

I really want this post to influence the work of the enemies of the Eximus, so that they have full resistance to the effects of control.

And I also want to draw attention to the fact that there are abilities that are not control effects, but for some reason do not work on Eximus enemies, for example 3 Equinox ability (without mod improvement), in fact its ability is a negative effect, not a control effect, but for some reason it does not work on Eximus enemies.

Yes ! That's also very inconsistent.

I think Equinox will get a rework soon, so perhaps it will be fixed then.

I think the best exemple of this problem is Wisp Breach Surge : it can blind Eximus, but it can't make them produce the damage sparks.

Garuda's 1st is not only a CC,, but it never worked on overguarded enemies.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, AegidiusF said:

I think the best exemple of this problem is Wisp Breach Surge : it can blind Eximus, but it can't make them produce the damage sparks.

➕1️⃣

But a Dishonorable Mention might go to Prowl, since there is no CC component to the ability at all, and not even a non-CC debuff, and yet the pickpocket doesn't work through Overguard.  :/ 

[Tiltskillet]

On 2024-01-17 at 8:45 AM, Raarsi said:

And Rhino Stomp isn't aimed.  Seems like it's working as intended then.

Aiming is nowhere stated to be an intended factor in whether effects apply or not through Overguard. https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1305472-eximus-reborn-dev-workshop/

Plus I'd add that the majority of CCs that aren't aimed don't work. 

Gloom is one  example, notable to me because I think its popularity as a Helminth injection was one of the primary impetuses for CC immunity getting added to Eximus in the first place.  But we could add Sound Quake, Molecular Prime, Divine Spears, Chaos, and many more.

Edited January 18 by Tiltskillet

[DezerayTwT]

1 час назад, AegidiusF сказал:

Garuda's 1st is not only a CC,, but it never worked on overguarded enemies.

From what I have found out in the course of numerous tests, it is that almost all control effects in the warframe are directional and the enemies of Eximus just block the control effects directed at them.

However, due to some mistake or flaw, the warframe has strong control effects that are not blocked by Eximus enemies, like 3 Wisp abilities.

I do not know exactly how this works, but from my observations, I am inclined to conclude that for Eximuses, abilities like 1 Garuda or 3 Equinoxes are also a directional control effect, which is why they simply do not work for them.

This definitely needs to be corrected and examined in detail.

1 час назад, AegidiusF сказал:

I think Equinox will get a rework soon, so perhaps it will be fixed then.

Oh, it's unlikely, there are a lot of examples in warframe when an old frame with a very interesting concept and unique gameplay has not yet received a normal rework, for example Loki or Inaros, warframes that I really like in their design and ideas, but they are very boring or just unpleasant to play for.

I really love Equinox and even though it may be outdated in some aspects, it is 3 heads taller than many warframes.

[AegidiusF]

il y a une heure, DezerayTwT a dit :

Oh, it's unlikely, there are a lot of examples in warframe when an old frame with a very interesting concept and unique gameplay has not yet received a normal rework, for example Loki or Inaros, warframes that I really like in their design and ideas, but they are very boring or just unpleasant to play for.

I really love Equinox and even though it may be outdated in some aspects, it is 3 heads taller than many warframes.

Perhaps. I like Equinox a lot, but the reason I think she will get a rework soon is that Pablo based the last reworks (Wukong, Grendel and Hydroid) on use rate. Noiw, the less used frames are Atlas and Equinox, so I think these two will get a rework soon (at least this year). But this is just an assumption.

Edited January 18 by AegidiusF

[Raarsi]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

Plus I'd add that the majority of CCs that aren't aimed don't work. 

That sounds like a skill issue or maybe some sort of bug on your end.  What CC skills I do use seem to work just fine for me, and if they don't, then it's usually not hard for me to pick up on why it isn't and either correct it so it does work or go write up a bug report on that part of the forums if it still isn't working.

Now that I think of it, maybe you should've put this thread in the general bug section of the forums instead of here.

 

[Tiltskillet]

10 minutes ago, Raarsi said:

That sounds like a skill issue

lol, please.  I'm pretty bad, but even I can manage to activate Sound Quake when there is an eximus in range and note whether it's staggered or not.

11 minutes ago, Raarsi said:

or maybe some sort of bug on your end. 

Right...please post specific examples of CC abilities working through Eximus Overguard on your end that aren't already mentioned as exceptions here:

And tell me where DE says unaimed CC abilities are intended to work through Overguard.

[Champagne]

Nobody tell this dude about Saryn pressing 1

[DezerayTwT]

2 минуты назад, Champagne сказал:

Nobody tell this dude about Saryn pressing 1

Her ability is not a control effect, so I do not know what she has to do with it)

[Nebula_Rapture]

On 2024-01-16 at 11:54 AM, DezerayTwT said:

Rhino Stomp bypasses Overguard and slows down Eximus enemies, please fix it, it's just not fair.

 

[Raarsi]

4 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Right...please post specific examples of CC abilities working through Eximus Overguard on your end that aren't already mentioned as exceptions here:

Well to use your own words...  

On 2023-03-28 at 7:51 PM, Tiltskillet said:

I am listing some things that are only vaguely CC,

Killing enemies does technically fall into the definition of "crowd control".  Definitely a "set and forget" kind of CC too, which makes it really useful.

Okay, joking aside, I probably should've elaborated on one part of what I said before.

5 hours ago, Raarsi said:

What CC skills I do use seem to work just fine for me, and if they don't, then it's usually not hard for me to pick up on why it isn't and either correct it so it does work or go write up a bug report on that part of the forums if it still isn't working.

DPS'ing away that overguard allows those enemies to then be affected by whatever crowd control you have.  Whenever I'm playing my Vauban, I always go for those eximus units and then watch them go flying into my Vortex trap the millisecond that overguard's gone because that's how I correct that particular issue regarding whatever CC I happen to be using.

I also brought up the "skill issue" thing because with all the griping about CC just in this thread, I was guessing that you're having trouble actually killing enemies or something since that's enemy death is a pretty long-lasting CC effect (at least a lot more than Rhino floating enemies for several seconds).

Lastly, I mentioned all the bug stuff because if you do believe that it's a bug, then I recommend going to general bug forum section and bringing it up there since those threads are usually more likely to get dev attention.

[Tiltskillet]

12 minutes ago, Raarsi said:

I also brought up the "skill issue" thing because with all the griping about CC just in this thread, I was guessing that you're having trouble actually killing enemies

No, I am killing enemies to my satisfaction, thank you for your concern.   There are some improvements I feel could be made to Eximus 2.0, but overall it's one of my all time favorite overhauls, and has been a huge boost to Warframe's entertainment value for me. 

I'm only griping about two things in this thread:

  - some CCs that DE specifically  categorized as no longer working through Overguard that never stopped working

  - some non-CC effects that became non-functional through Overguard, despite DE saying nothing about that

Both of which have very little rhyme or reason to them.  If it's all intended,  I'd love to hear any explanation of the logic or technical issues that make them so. 

21 minutes ago, Raarsi said:

Lastly, I mentioned all the bug stuff because if you do believe that it's a bug, then I recommend going to general bug forum section and bringing it up there since those threads are usually more likely to get dev attention.

I've made a few individual bug report threads on these, and participated  many, many more. Only two have been fixed that I know of: Avalanche not armor stripping through Overguard, and Cordon pulling in Eximus through it.  There've been a couple of others, but not ones I think I contributed to.

So I wouldn't say bug reporting any of this has had a ton of traction over the last two years.

[DezerayTwT]

8 часов назад, Raarsi сказал:

Killing enemies does technically fall into the definition of "crowd control".

Absolutely not, at least because you won't be able to kill Eximus before you take off his Overguard.

8 часов назад, Raarsi сказал:

I also brought up the "skill issue" thing because with all the griping about CC just in this thread, I was guessing that you're having trouble actually killing enemies or something since that's enemy death is a pretty long-lasting CC effect (at least a lot more than Rhino floating enemies for several seconds).

This is by no means the case, I did not want to touch on such a subjective aspect as the "possibility of killing enemies", I try to be as objective as possible and common sense tells me that DE simply do not know about these problems, and yes, this is a PROBLEM, it really needs to be fixed and I now have to introduce all the control abilities that for some reason work The enemies of the Eximus squawk Overguard.

 

8 часов назад, Raarsi сказал:

Lastly, I mentioned all the bug stuff because if you do believe that it's a bug, then I recommend going to general bug forum section and bringing it up there since those threads are usually more likely to get dev attention.

this is also a good idea, if nothing happens after some time after this article, I will write to the general forum and describe in detail everything I know now and learned during the correspondence in this article.

[DezerayTwT]

В 1/19/2024 в 4:31 AM, Tiltskillet сказал:

- some non-CC effects that became non-functional through Overguard, despite DE saying nothing about that

in some ways, this is even a bigger problem than the control abilities that work through the Overguard, I like to play Equinox and it's a shame for me that I can't reduce the damage to the enemies of the Eximus, because these enemies often cause the most damage compared to the rest.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

While I understand the desire for consistency in ability descriptions and functionality within the game, personally, I think the current state is a "win" for players that use the frames with abilities that slipped through the cracks, either because they were overlooked, or did not meet the same criteria that doomed the other abilities. They likely used different criteria than those listed in patch notes when going down the list of all abilities, and we are not privy to the internal documentation and possibly difference in how abilities were coded to interact with eximus/overguard mechanics. (it may not be as simple as "making enemies with overguard immune" to the effects.)

All that said, given most bugs in favor of the players are fixed within the day of devs finding out about them, I take this as an absolute win for Rhino/Wisp players everywhere.