Eclipse Update (Dev response)

[SneakyErvin]

57 minutes ago, Aruquae said:

I think that’s because it’s the only one that gives DR… unless I’m missing something. Only other subsume that gives damage reduction (from what I can remember) was the ability to convert shields to armor, along with Chroma’s elemental ward for armor (as armor gives damage reduction to health). 

The Nova skill too, but you have no way to maintain it since you cant utilize the beneficial augment due to not having access to Molecular Prime. Plus it needs insane amounts of duration to reach the DR cap. You can slot the other augment so you can discharge and recast it, but it drops down from max DR very quickly by simply being in proximity to mobs. So not really viable.

Then for armor there is Wukong and Valkyr too. With Wukong being a flat increase so works for low armor frames too, while War Cry requires decent base armor to be worthwhile. You can use Fractured Blast too together with Health Conversion for some nice chunks of easily maintainable armor based DR, I do so on Dagath.

[Aruquae]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

The Nova skill too, but you have no way to maintain it since you cant utilize the beneficial augment due to not having access to Molecular Prime. Plus it needs insane amounts of duration to reach the DR cap. You can slot the other augment so you can discharge and recast it, but it drops down from max DR very quickly by simply being in proximity to mobs. So not really viable.

Ah, that’s what I was missing. I forgot that thing existed after a… joyride of a nerf. Not to mention they function like Baruuk’s daggers (flying out of nowhere screwing you). 

 

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You can use Fractured Blast too together with Health Conversion for some nice chunks of easily maintainable armor based DR, I do so on Dagath.

Another reason to get to farming another Citrine. I wonder if it’ll work in place of Protea’s dispensary for energy.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Aruquae said:

Another reason to get to farming another Citrine. I wonder if it’ll work in place of Protea’s dispensary for energy.

In content with alot of enemies it's crazy for energy and healing, so any full group endless and all SP endless will easily make it perform better than disp. Just need enough range and/or strength to either increase targets hit or the drop chance on each enemy hit.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

3 hours ago, ECCHOSIERRA said:

Its capped at 95% if you have enough strength and i dont think it takes much to do it. I think they said theyre reducing it to 90% (not 100% sure) but still.

The reason nobody ever cared or gave a fart about it for DR is the actual amount of damage reduction you get, depends on the light source math, which we all know can be jank. The game might not give you DR at all and if it did, it might not be a full buff. 

It also reduces enemy accuracy. 

Unless im forgetting something, it would be the best subsumable DR ability. 

Id try it on hildryn too just for the hell of it.

 

See above.

Whoa... I forgot about the accuracy reduction that went along with the DR! Now that it's a toggle effect, I wonder how this would work when combined with stacked Corpus enemy accuracy reduction aura mods? 

[_Anise_]

On 2024-02-23 at 8:38 PM, KitMeHarder said:

(only a mere 30% damage buff)

I can't believe this ! someone on the official feedback thread responded with exactly that saying weeks ago it should be 30% to be in line with roar though I found my response to that was incorrect partially but ...

roar applies damage to E V E R Y T H I N G? warframe abilities, allies ? I just dont even know what DE is thinking anymore, if we can't have a hellminth system dont bother

Edited February 29 by _Anise_

[ECCHOSIERRA]

7 hours ago, Aruquae said:

I think that’s because it’s the only one that gives DR… unless I’m missing something. Only other subsume that gives damage reduction (from what I can remember) was the ability to convert shields to armor, along with Chroma’s elemental ward for armor (as armor gives damage reduction to health). 

(Going off memory here so forgive me if im wrong) null star, does too but theres massive restrictions on it. 

First, it only affects health and not shield. You need a crapload of duration to get that much out of it *and* ideally low range, and you need an augment to recast it.

I can see shenanigans. 

Imagine total eclipse citrine giving 90% DR to the squad twice. 

[ECCHOSIERRA]

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Whoa... I forgot about the accuracy reduction that went along with the DR! Now that it's a toggle effect, I wonder how this would work when combined with stacked Corpus enemy accuracy reduction aura mods? 

I didnt know the accuracy reduction was even a thing until i read the wiki. 

It would be really funny if it stacked with other damage reduction abilities, like shatter shield, which i think is the case now at least. 

 

[Politically_Correct_Name]

Got to give credit to developers for listening to their community.  They didnt have to do this and many games do whatever the #*!% they want, DE is pretty good at communicating proposed changes beforehand and adjusting based on feedback from those actually playing the game, and of course buying their product.  This would have been a disaster for eclipse and Mirage, she would have gotten the Chroma treatment, whens the last time anyones seen a Chroma? 

 

I do wish DE and almost all games would get out of this mindset that just because a lot of players are choosing a certain ability or character or weapon ect, that means somehow they have failed and they must alter the popular choice.  This is so ass backwards and makes absolutely no sense to me.  If somethings under-performing and not being used why not bring the underused characters, weapons, abilities ect up instead of crippling things players are using.  Its the dumbest industry standard and its frustrated me for many many years.  A lot of players choose whats fun to use and the whole point of playing video games is to have fun with it, developers should be proud lots of players are choosing their creations, not look at it as a failure.

[Aerikx]

1 hour ago, Politically_Correct_Name said:

I do wish DE and almost all games would get out of this mindset that just because a lot of players are choosing a certain ability or character or weapon ect, that means somehow they have failed and they must alter the popular choice.  This is so ass backwards and makes absolutely no sense to me.  If somethings under-performing and not being used why not bring the underused characters, weapons, abilities ect up instead of crippling things players are using.  Its the dumbest industry standard and its frustrated me for many many years.  A lot of players choose whats fun to use and the whole point of playing video games is to have fun with it, developers should be proud lots of players are choosing their creations, not look at it as a failure.

Well, just like with nerfing things all the time. Buffing all the time is also a huge issue.

Too weak and it's not worth it. Too strong and everything stops being fun. 

To bring this into context. 

If they raise everything up to say meet "Nourish" standards. Then the devs risk making the entirety of the game trivial. 

Then the complaint becomes: "The game is way too easy." 

Then they end up balancing the game under the assumption that players have Helminth and specific abilities and meta builds.

Now the game just became that much more impossible for newer players who may not have the time, resources, and/or knowledge to match the game's expectations. 

If everything was a defective as nourish then while yes, more Warframe abilities would be subsumed, they'd be getting subsumed specifically to break/trivialize some form of content. 

This is also why the devs hand pick the subsume powers (to try and avoid creating ultimate untouchable god of all that is and ever will be builds).

That said, if an ability is (for the sake of discussion) seeing use by 90% of the community, the "why" factor becomes the root point of investigation. 

I personally would prefer they address the gameplay loop versus buffing and nerfing. 

Ex:

If Nourish is used because (making this up) it restores 100% energy. And 90% of the community uses it, then that means your energy economy is crap or your gameplay loop forces energy use to an extent where players are starved. 

In Eclipse's case. It sees use purely for more dps for even more overkill. The devs are reeling it in because it functions as a persistent and consistent dps and damage reduction ability now. (Before it was essentially always in flux due to the crazy lighting system) 

Humoring the arguments of: "Well no one uses the Damage Reduction so the devs shouldn't even consider that in terms of balancing." 

1. Pretending that no one using the DR aspect is a fact. 

This is a huge gameplay loop issue. This means that gameplay isn't aggressive enough to make the DR a viable option. Perhaps enemies need to dramatically buffed across the board. From Strength, accuracy, hp, defense, Crit, to possibly Status/DoTs on players. 

Effectively forcing players the ask the same question as those new to Steel Path ask: How do I not die to these endless, bullet sponge enemies who like atom bombs? 

Some say kill them first. But if the enemy has been scaled to account for a Helminth arsenal of nourish strength abilities and how they synergize with player builds then you now have enemies designed to absorb the DMG potential. Meaning, maximum DPS is no longer an option/meaningful solution.

Now the issue becomes how every enemy essentially has Damage Attenuation. And if that's fair to player investment, etc, etc. 

[KitMeHarder]

On 2024-02-28 at 6:05 AM, Voltage said:

I bet a lot of these people are just assuming it works with GunCO/CO

[...]

This change is honestly a worse deal than the proposed Base Damage one, especially long-term.

Yeah, but that's more so CO mods being buggy than Eclipse. With CO mods being "advertised" as being 1:1 additive, like Serration. But that's not how it is.

• CO is only partially additive (i.e. Drakgoon)
• CO to completely multiplicative (i.e. Plasmor)
• It ignores any damage falloff weapons like shotguns have
• It ignores most incarnon genesis raw damage evolutions
• It had the bug months ago that caused pellet gunblades to scale each pellet as if it was dealing the full weapon's damage
• It didn't/doesn't scale with certain stance mod multipliers
• There was that weird bug with the Telos Bolter incarnon and its mag size
• It's been a while, but it is/was additive with the heavy attack multiplier you get from combo
• Etc...

And this was a mod the was multiplicative, and based on all of this it should have stayed multiplicative (just not multiplicative with itself). So contrary to your claim, "squeezing the multiplier" and making everything additive like Serration is not the way to go. Especially when it comes to conditional additive damage.

 

BONUS: I was testing Galvanized Aptitude a few days ago and it was no longer giving you bonus damage past one stack (tested using Soma Prime). It didn't matter if you had 1 stack or the 2 maximum, it still only gave +40% damage per status.

Edited March 1 by KitMeHarder

[MouthfulOJoules]

On 2024-02-25 at 4:38 AM, PainTako said:

Regardless of what we want to believe, they did break all the time. Just look at the Meatball bug in JV. How earth rework made LoR entirely broken for stage 1, and somehow all the pads in tram phase 2 were gone. Or when batteries randomly starting charging at a much faster speed. Or what about the random rock that blocked the entire vay hek arena entrance. Or the...

I agree with most you have said but still would be hyped if DE said that they're bringing back 8 player raids. Even if the maps and objectives are different, even if they're somewhat buggy for the first 2-6 months. Not holding out hope that it would ever become a reality, though.